EPTOn October 02 2011 18:18 Bill Murray wrote:
1300 = 1.3 thousand, no s
1300 = 1.3 thousand, no s
Bill MOTHERFUCKING Murray
[G]HUARGH's 90+% winrate PvZ mothership build - Page 3
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
Bill MOTHERFUCKING Murray | ||
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Gerike
Hungary14 Posts
if some1 says anything wich contains " imba / op / abusive " + " zerg/terran units" sentence he get warned / temp banned toss can be lame / easy / op anytime. why? good catch on the replay but he did not had any units b4 9 min mark he did not used suicid lord , he did miss u passed hes lords vision with void so i not sure how u hold some kind of early agression from zerg with 4zealot 2 sent on 3-5 gate. but i really look forward ,since i try to play nowadays expo air into charge archon finish off. | ||
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Tef
Sweden443 Posts
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Escoffier
United States120 Posts
On October 02 2011 18:18 Bill Murray wrote: 1300 = 1.3 thousand, no s 5600 = 5.6 thousand, no s | ||
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-iNko
Lithuania160 Posts
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On October 02 2011 12:57 lizzuma wrote: sup n00b :D aom represent! Sup Phil <3 On October 02 2011 13:05 BuddhaMonk wrote: Which nexus do you normally make your mothership at? Usually my natural for faster rally, but it may be better to build it at your main in some circumstances. I do not think it matters all -that- much. On October 02 2011 13:10 NTTemplar wrote: Could you elaborate on how this does against ling/infestor timing attack? How exactly would you grab that third against it? IF the answer is that you can't, is this still doable or does it mean you are stuck again at the previous problem of 2base with all the same problems as before? Mothership and Archon will be out right before the earliest possible timing. You can have your mothership positioned slightly back to cloak things. If they are using this timing attack they will usually not scout your base due to the timing attack providing them with a lot of information, so they will not have an overseer. If they do bring an overseer you can still hold it with simple zealot/archon and a cannon or two. Don't forget that this build has scouting, it is not a blind strategy. With your phoenix you will see what he's doing, if you see 2 base infestor-oriented play, play slightly more cautiously (which goes for every zerg 2-base play, most will grab a 3rd base though). On October 02 2011 13:24 FinestHour wrote: Could you put up any more replays? That one you had was ok, but its nice to have some more I actually have a lot of replays but I was using a cro-magnon 2-base timing build with the mothership at first, it's a very different build. Even though I also didn't play optimal in the replay currently provided, I feel it shows the strength and how the build plays out fairly well. I will provide more replays in the next few days, don't worry. On October 02 2011 14:56 Buddhist wrote: Keep in mind also that Carriers are extremely good when you have the opportunity to build them. Yep, it also allows for a transition into carriers. Usually unnecessarily risky though, unless you cannot attack him for some reason. On October 02 2011 15:13 darkscream wrote: This guide is bad because you claim it's invincible and don't give us things to watch out for that you find dangerous. 90%+ winrate? You even claim that if your opponent knows exactly what you are doing its still unstoppable. Ok... this is going to get some lower level players in trouble when they try to do it themselves. These are not realistic expectations to set. What kills this build? What timings are you weak at? What should you do if your opponent splits his army up and doesn't allow you to put the entire thing in a vortex? The 90%ish is from my own experience. I don't know what kills this build, obviously you can't do this exact build against 7pool or 1base roach rush, you will have to get a second gate or forge and ditch the plan and play as you normally would. There's not really any timings off 3 bases that can hurt you. You are not playing a FFE so he cannot grab 3 bases and mass mass drone without gas and a delayed lair. The 3 gates are to help you hold off any 10-13ish minute timings, but you can always scout if he is 2base or 3base and you can always scout his tech. You fly a phoenix over his base at around the 8-9 minute mark, you WILL get information. There have been zero games where I have not been able to get information with this (and I have been using the phoenix scout for a long, long, long time now, even before diverting into the mothership build). Delay your charge and warp in more stalkers with your 3 gates, build a cannon if you feel it is necessary (you get your forge and twi-council right after you queue your mothership). You don't have to try and take your base at 9 minutes, you can take it at ~11 minutes too when your mothership and archons are out. If he splits his army up, just engage in a ball and pick of the straggler units. Zealot/archon loses to mass roach kiting on creep, but he cannot really kite effectively (at least I've never seen anyone able to) if his army isn't in a ball. Eventually his army will clump up, there's nothing he can really do about it. Land your vortex and throw your shit in. On October 02 2011 15:45 Anihc wrote: Why do you have to title it "90+% winrate" build? It doesn't make your guide more attractive, it just makes you look dumber. No build has a 90% winrate. That being said, your guide isn't that bad. It does need more replays though. I feel like guides should be auto-closed if they have less than 3 replays or so. Mothership is an excellent unit, but I'm beginning to realize that one of its strengths is that a lot of zerg players are just clueless in how to deal with it. For example, upon seeing vortex a lot of zerg players try to "save" their army by throwing everything into it. Well of course that's suicide for the zerg. But if the zerg just ignores what gets caught in the vortex, they can simply fight out the battle, kill some of your army, and then remax and kill your entire army now that you no longer have a vortex (or even mothership). Also, I don't like how you default to zealot/archon. Mass roach just shits on it. Roach/baneling or roach/infestor shits on it even more. 1 void ray does nothing to stop mass roach, you will never get your 3rd up or be able to defend it, especially while you're spending thousands of resources teching to mothership at the same time. There is actually a lot of micro regarding the mothership/archon versus broodlord/infestor/corruptor 200/200 battle. With no micro on either side the protoss wins easy. But if the zerg spreads out his units and doesn't throw everything into the vortex, when archons come out they still have to deal with unvortexed broodlords/broodlings and infestors casting fungal. Not to mention that if the zerg immediately runs away the corruptors that get caught in the vortex, they will NOT all die even if you have 10 archons in there. They will only all die if the zerg is slow and doesn't move them immediately upon the vortex ending. You have 2 vortexes that can be casted in rapid succession. If he ignores what's cast in the vortex, cast the second vortex about 10 seconds later (vortex duration is 20 seconds). You will immediately kill off the vortexed units, then you can go into the other vortex and voila. You can also opt for just using 1 vortex. You don't have to vortex his army and throw your shit in, you should always use common sense and game sense. No matter how much he spreads his broodlords out, he is going to lose a lot of them to double vortex. Also, the reason the corruptors do not die is because archons do not auto-target them, and instead target units beneath them. Go to the unit tester, throw 6 or 7 +2 or +3 archons in a vortex together with only corruptors (as many as you like), so they have target priority, and tell me if you can fly away. If you really really want the corruptors dead you can target them with your archons, but I don't know why you would wanna do that. The zerg cannot really spread out his army, due to this increasing the effectiveness of zealot/archon as somewhat explained above. On October 02 2011 16:11 iNkopwnz wrote: Thanks for the strategy, seems unique and defo gonna try this out! i just have one questions, why are u calling this strategy lame? seems like u found the only good use for the mothership and it instantly becomes lame (as in 'op')? lol The strategy just seems a bit 'off' for an RTS game. I don't feel like I should be able to sit on my ass at 40 apm and win the game, it feels kind of like chess where multitasking is kind of irrelevant. On October 02 2011 18:39 Macpo wrote: What about hydra/ling drop around min 11 to go against that, when you first scouted the stargate? I feel zerg would be able to destroy a nexus at least... You can scout drop-tech (dancing hatchery/lair, fast overlords, hydra den and 2base play, ...,) and dropping is tricky due to there being a void ray out. You can hold it off anyway. Note that I am not really using my 3gateways this game. They are there for aggressive 2base play though, you obviously aren't gonna do this exact build in the replay against (very scoutable) 2base aggression, you are gonna do the build but divert from not making any gateway units, and instead make gateway units and delay your charge (200/200) and premature nexus attempt (400). On October 02 2011 19:18 Herr_Trichter wrote: I am Master Z Player and i find that strat to be very interesting. I remeber several games where i was totally raped by motherships (mostly with void+colo). I just played around a little with the unit test map and found that 40 zeals, 10 arcons(+2 attack), get raped by 40 banes and 40 roaches when all units enter the vortex before fighting (+2 attack on melee and +2 armor). The banes just go off after immunity goes away and kill most of the zealots. The fewer roaches in the vortex the more damage the banes do. Z could also keep 3-4 infestors behind the army to get off neural on the mothership or some archons. If i was p i would opt to get 1 robo and pump immortals. You don't have to vortex and throw your shit in. The timing hits so that the zerg is unable to get a lot of banelings up, and if he does you can scout this with the phoenix and get storm tech and just not vortex (or vortex and make sure you deny him by storming his blings when they wanna go on). I mean come on, how much easier do you want a build to be? If the zerg masses banelings just don't vortex and enjoy your 4base protoss with carrier and templar tech already being out while he pumped a ton of resources into banelings. Also, given good mothership play it is nearly impossible to neural it. This was already the case when the neural was 9 range, now it is even more so. On October 02 2011 20:26 iNkopwnz wrote: just tried this build, kinda was afraid of burrow roaches because i dint have any obs for a long time. Also got my mothership stolen with infestors couple of times :D This should never happen. I've gotten my mothership stolen once but it was due to really poor control from my side and could have 100.00% be prevented. Also if you're worried about infestors you can keep 2 or 3 templars in your army for feedback. | ||
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Azera
3800 Posts
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Knutzi
Norway664 Posts
anyway it does seem quite good once you get the deathball with mothership going | ||
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A-BomB
Ireland79 Posts
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
Other than that, if you can survive that "weak" timing, I'd say it looks pretty damn strong. Looking forward to testing it more.. | ||
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Tailss
Sweden233 Posts
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kAra
Germany1375 Posts
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On October 02 2011 21:47 Nyast wrote: I tested the build.. and to be honnest, I'm not 100% convinced. There's a timing, which is around 12', when your mothership has just arrived.. where you basically have no units. In your replay for ex you have 6 zealots, 5 stalkers and 4 sentries. Now, by going air harass a lot of Zergs are going to respond with hydras. I'm not sure you have enough to hold an hydra timing push at that time, even with the MS, and really you can't count on him not having an overseer, otherwise that just means you're counting on him being dumb for winning.. not a good sign. What won you the game in your replay is you snipping his B3. As a result he reached 200/200 at the same time than you, so of course you were gonna win anyway... Other than that, if you can survive that "weak" timing, I'd say it looks pretty damn strong. Looking forward to testing it more.. I also had Archons. The 4 sentries were all 200/200 --> 16 forcefields. Also, there's a lot of leeway with this build in gateway unit cycles. Against very aggressive play, you can get more gateway cycles and less gateways. Ideally, you will want to mass gateways so your macro explodes, but against aggressive play you get less gateways and more zealots (day9 also explains this somewhere). | ||
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BlindSC2
United Kingdom435 Posts
If you sit a mothership on an expansion with 200/200 energy and a couple of cannons.... you can bet your ass that expo is not going down any time soon at all. A typical ling counter cant deal with it, since everything is cloaked, a muta harrass can't deal with it, because of the cannons and warp gates, burrow play cant deal with it, because of the cannons again, and a full out attack often cant deal with it, because of mass recall + vortex. TIP: You can mass recall warp prisms as well. Hint hint. | ||
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pycho
Paraguay372 Posts
btw are you they guy who made a thread about 'imbalanced tvp thor rush which cannot be stopped' and didnt prove any replays saying u were playing from pc cafe and didnt have the replay? | ||
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Skwid1g
United States953 Posts
I honestly think carriers and motherships are underused. 4 base toss transitioning into carriers late game PvZ is really, really good. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
so what do u do vs 40 speedroaches at like 12:00 where ur army is propably like 15 zealot, 5 stalker, few sentry, and like 3 archons:>? Um, did you even read the OP? He has a stargate and at least one Void and a Phoenix out. So when his Phoenix scouts you massing Roaches, the transition into more Voids is easy as hell. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
The mothership must be stationary for it to cast her spells. It cannot cast spells while moving so the acceleration/deacceleration buff is huge in this patch. If you've ever wondered why your vortex was casted like 5 seconds after you tried to it was because of this, the mothership has to come to a halt This is super interesting/useful to know. The acceleration buff is a lot more important/well thought out than I originally thought. Question: Once you have the Mothership out, do you find its worth it to build Carriers. Every time I've gotten Carriers vs. Z I've found them be super efficient, but I can't tell whether it'd muck with the unit comp you're shooting for too badly. | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On October 03 2011 00:06 pycho wrote: btw are you they guy who made a thread about 'imbalanced tvp thor rush which cannot be stopped' and didnt prove any replays saying u were playing from pc cafe and didnt have the replay? I provided a ton of replays on a later page against almost every build, against ladder opponents (3gate star, 4gate, 2gate robo, 3gate expo, 1gate expo, DTs, ...,). Saying I didn't provide a replay is incorrect. | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On October 03 2011 00:32 awesomoecalypse wrote: This is super interesting/useful to know. The acceleration buff is a lot more important/well thought out than I originally thought. Question: Once you have the Mothership out, do you find its worth it to build Carriers. Every time I've gotten Carriers vs. Z I've found them be super efficient, but I can't tell whether it'd muck with the unit comp you're shooting for too badly. I usually do not build carriers. It is simply not necessary - think of it as you having a simple gun and a cannon, your goal is to kill someone. Are you gonna load up the cannon and risk him running away or killing you with a knife or something, or are you gonna draw out your pistol and shoot him down? If you run out of bullets you can always turn to the cannon. This is analogous to carriers and zealot/archon. You can always get the heavy artillery out if zealot/archon doesn't work. | ||
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