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On September 14 2011 15:55 LtLolburger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 15:12 Drinc wrote:
I've played against this cannon shit, it's really, REALLY BAD since your tanks just outrange cannons while your marines/banshess defend them. Did you actually watch any of the replays? You only get a cannon if you scout a 2rax or early marine scv all-in. You need one against these as you open robo after 1 gate. And you only get 1 cannon anyway...
I don't think it's necessary to get a forge if you scout a gas. The only really threatening thing is the marine/SCV all-in. Before everyone (including myself) started going one gate expo, I never died against marine/marauder-pushs by going gate robo gate. Don't think the forge is needed there.
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i have only watched the youtube video that has been posted, but based on that i can't really see how this push can crush the 1/1/1 allin. according to the video the push happens at about the 10 minute mark with 5 immortals and a few sentries and zealots. at this point in time a terran going for 1/1/1 will usually have out about 3 bashees out and you don't really have any AA besides the sentries that do horrible damage. won't the terran just be able to snipe all your stuff with those bashees without you being able to do anything about it?
also, at this point in time the terran usually also has about 3 tanks out with siege mode researched, so he can just siege them somewhat behind his bunker line and your army will just be crushed by siege tank fire while it's still occupied with the bunkers (the tanks won't be in range for the immos yet)
am i missing something here?
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On September 14 2011 21:18 cdd wrote:
i have only watched the youtube video that has been posted, but based on that i can't really see how this push can crush the 1/1/1 allin. according to the video the push happens at about the 10 minute mark with 5 immortals and a few sentries and zealots. at this point in time a terran going for 1/1/1 will usually have out about 3 bashees out and you don't really have any AA besides the sentries that do horrible damage. won't the terran just be able to snipe all your stuff with those bashees without you being able to do anything about it?
also, at this point in time the terran usually also has about 3 tanks out with siege mode researched, so he can just siege them somewhat behind his bunker line and your army will just be crushed by siege tank fire while it's still occupied with the bunkers (the tanks won't be in range for the immos yet)
am i missing something here?
You are underestimating sentry dps wich is 6.
when stalker dps is 6.9 on non armored units, so in the end diffrence isnt so huge as you may think.
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On September 14 2011 22:32 Roynalf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 21:18 cdd wrote:
i have only watched the youtube video that has been posted, but based on that i can't really see how this push can crush the 1/1/1 allin. according to the video the push happens at about the 10 minute mark with 5 immortals and a few sentries and zealots. at this point in time a terran going for 1/1/1 will usually have out about 3 bashees out and you don't really have any AA besides the sentries that do horrible damage. won't the terran just be able to snipe all your stuff with those bashees without you being able to do anything about it?
also, at this point in time the terran usually also has about 3 tanks out with siege mode researched, so he can just siege them somewhat behind his bunker line and your army will just be crushed by siege tank fire while it's still occupied with the bunkers (the tanks won't be in range for the immos yet)
am i missing something here? You are underestimating sentry dps wich is 6. when stalker dps is 6.9 on non armored units, so in the end diffrence isnt so huge as you may think.
Sentries are also slower, have less range, have only 80 health, and cost 100 gas, although they are not affected by pdd. This is why I want to test a 111 build against this
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i think if the terran scouts this comming and is doing a 1/1/1 he can just put 4 bunkers on top of his (naturals) ramp, put a line of marines directly behind the bunkers and siege his tanks behind the marines (a little further away so that sieged tank range is the same as bunker range). according to the replay (the one on youtube) the push hits at around 10 minutes, at which point the terran should have around 4 siege tanks, 3 banshees and a lot of marines.
like i said, the banshees can just pick of the sentries at will and i don't see how the protoss can breach this wall of bunkers, marines and sieged tanks, all his gateway stuff will just die and the immos will never get in range of the tanks.
after the terran has held the push he can basically just keep the wallin up and take his natural (toss will be behind at this point) or (if enough of his marines survived) he can alternatively just sell his bunkers, unsiege and do the regular 1/1/1 push a little delayed. killing the toss at this point would probably be difficult because he still has his immos left and can warp in gateway stuff to hold the push, but the terran can just contain the toss by siegeing up outside of the main (and outside of immo range) and get his expo with the money from the sold bunkers.
edit: i'm not saying that this push is not strong or that my way of dealing with it would actually work, it's just what i would instinctively do when i scout it
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On September 14 2011 19:31 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 15:55 LtLolburger wrote:On September 14 2011 15:12 Drinc wrote:
I've played against this cannon shit, it's really, REALLY BAD since your tanks just outrange cannons while your marines/banshess defend them. Did you actually watch any of the replays? You only get a cannon if you scout a 2rax or early marine scv all-in. You need one against these as you open robo after 1 gate. And you only get 1 cannon anyway... I don't think it's necessary to get a forge if you scout a gas. The only really threatening thing is the marine/SCV all-in. Before everyone (including myself) started going one gate expo, I never died against marine/marauder-pushs by going gate robo gate. Don't think the forge is needed there.
Isn't the +1 and GS really beneficial for your zealots though? That's at least the feeling I get whenever I try this.
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Well... I just scouted this really early and still lost to it with 4 bunkers and repairing scvs. Guess I need to get ghosts a little sooner  They were like 10 secs from completion and 40ish from emp:K That +1 and gshield is gaaaaaaah!!!
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Ah, it seems like it does counter the 1-1-1. Good job! I'll try this build
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Crushed 1-1-1 with tanks/raven/banshees and FE builds with it, nice.
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What if he scouts it and gets 2port banshee? pretty sure a few sentries cant hold off 4+ banshees... Or if he scouts it and goes 1base ghost. or even marine/bfh/banshee...
Definitely a very strong build vs blind play though, be it standard or marine/tank.
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On September 14 2011 10:00 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 09:50 Jayrod wrote:
Im really digging this build, thanks alot. I have to say I like the version that was used against Techno earlier in the thread. Later forge, with an expansion.. maybe its worse at busting certain builds or holding 1/1/1 than the one base version though i dunno It should probably be referred to as the "Vathus version". lawl. Seriously though. Someone tell me how to beat this. XD
Seriously read the thread man.. Its posted several times, and its basically a free win if you scout it, witch isnt really hard when you know what to look for either.
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I wonder if there's a way to make this safer to ghost play.
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On September 15 2011 22:17 Acidictadpole wrote:
I wonder if there's a way to make this safer to ghost play.
Most terrans won't have ghosts by the 10 minute mark
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Hmm, I keep crushing this with a 1 rax FE gasless.. As long as I have stim, I've never had to have more than 3 bunkers and have actually never had to bring my scvs to repair (whats the point anyways against like 300 dps against bunkers lol).
If you are doing the 1 rax gasless FE into 3 rax, get 2 tech lab and 1 reactor and just pump constant 2 marines 2 marauders while instantly researching stim. Stim will be done by 9:00, perfect timing to stop this push, and marauders actually do better against it than marines do for a few reasons.
1. Higher DPS against everything. A Marauder does 16 damage to a Immortal past its shields, even which GS, while a marine does 2. A Marauder does 6 damage to a zealot past its shields, while a marine does 2.
2. Coupled with almost 3 times the health, they are pretty sturdy against the zealot sentry (of course they do take more damage from immortals).
Don't go overboard with bunkers, as this will just spread out your units too much, and you want them bunched up. The +1 attack helps, but to be honest I almost never have it out in time for the initial push (it might finish while the fight is going on), but it's never mattered. My friend did it about 5 times to me and I didn't lose to it a single time and it's not like I specifically rushed for ghosts or anything, I was just doing my normal terran macro build.
For reference, with the finished research of stim and +1, the DPS of a marine in your army vs his army increases by 225% which is nuts. The most important upgrade is stim for sure.
Extra info, I usually put the marines in bunkers rather than the marauders, as they are the weaker units health wise, and always remember to stim your bunkers right as the engagement starts for that little extra bit of DPS.
I was analyzing my replays against this last night and every time this build would be close to hitting or hitting(the 9:30 mark), I would have 3 rax, stim done, and about 10 marauders and 17 marines with 2-3 bunkers as well as having a starport OTW for quick teching to medivacs.
I'll drop like 3 replays of this when I get home from work.
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I did this 3 times to day in 3v3 :D Fun to do and did win
...then I did it a 4 time and my ally where thinking I were a big noob when the 5 gates (for fun wtf..) come up... So they stopt the teamplaying and we lost. And I am nr 1 in master (+70% win rate!) in my leage so I did think people not where that conservative to new crazy strats lol.
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On September 15 2011 18:19 Marooned wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 10:00 Techno wrote:On September 14 2011 09:50 Jayrod wrote:
Im really digging this build, thanks alot. I have to say I like the version that was used against Techno earlier in the thread. Later forge, with an expansion.. maybe its worse at busting certain builds or holding 1/1/1 than the one base version though i dunno It should probably be referred to as the "Vathus version". lawl. Seriously though. Someone tell me how to beat this. XD Seriously read the thread man.. Its posted several times, and its basically a free win if you scout it, witch isnt really hard when you know what to look for either.
I've read the whole thread multiple times, can you direct me to some useful information on stopping this as terran?
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WOW WEE, this build blindly counters blind thor rushes!
...and that's the only success I've had with it...
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On September 15 2011 23:01 Bro_Stone wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 22:17 Acidictadpole wrote:
I wonder if there's a way to make this safer to ghost play. Most terrans won't have ghosts by the 10 minute mark
Didn't Proxima have them in his replays?
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EPT
