EPT[G] PvP Stronger 4 gate - Page 2
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
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ApocAlypsE007
Israel1007 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
First, I'm going to summarize my understanding of your build. This seems just like a normal 3 stalkers rush with 1 gas that transitions into 4 gate. Kiwikaki used a very similar build a few patches ago. He used 2 less chornoboost on probes, but chornoboosted his stalkers twice. The end result is almost exactly the same. The big difference is that you end up with 1 or 2 more probes and an opponent may think you're being overly greedy. Correct me if I'm wrong and there's actually more differences. My biggest criticism of your build is that throughout your entire guide, you seem to emphasize your opponent should sense that you cannot hold a 4 gate and then 4 gate to his death. However, I think a smart player will not go for the offensive 4 gate. After all, 2 gas into 3 stalker rush gives you stalkers at the exact same time or faster and that build stops 4 gate. I believe if your opponent does any other standard defensive build or even 1 gate tech, he will be way ahead. Overall, it feels like this build falls behind any non 4 gate and in my opinion has an over-reliance on your opponent being tricked. Next, because you use 4 chornoboosts on your probes, your opponent can almost with certainty rule out the standard all out 4 gate and thus even attempt to go a fake 4 gate opening but actually go 1 gate robo with a late gas, putting him very ahead. Finally, because your build is essentially a 3 stalker rush with 1 gas, I believe it is very susceptible to a gas steal. It's even more susceptible than a normal 3 stalker rush, because you don't save chornoboosts for your stalkers. If you don't attempt to kill the gas, you broadcast to your opponent that you're either 4 gating or fast expoing. If you do attempt to kill the gas, you lose your ability to definitively hold a 4 gate or you can get a probe get into your base, scouting all your buildings. | ||
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Defeat
United States476 Posts
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SaroVati
Canada280 Posts
On August 26 2011 16:35 RabidSeagull wrote: Really cool guide, I would have never thought that you could transition out of an early 3 stalker opening into a 4gate build. Saro, do you only do this as a defensive build when you suspect your opponent is 4gating you or would you turn on the aggression if he wasn't attacking or teching? Like if you scout double gas and he's CBing out probes early game, you would probably not do this exact build right? To be completely honest I don't actually do this build UNLESS I suspect a 4 gate coming. On a map like tal'darim, I can assure you you will win the majority of your games with this build though. Personally I take my 2nd gas, walk my huge army to his front door. Drop a pylon. Constantly warp in 4 units (first 4 might have to be zealots), then about 90 seconds after have blink + an expo across the map (assuming my poke discovered he had immortals / colossus OR I see an invisible observer floating about) This build leaves you with at LEAST 23 probes (if you do the super safe version of it) Now think of WHY I chose this number (coupled with the fact it lines up perfectly). If you need 6 probes for BOTH gas, you are at 17 probes. If you bring that one probe out to place the proxy pylon, you are at 16 probes. Optimal saturation. That's something this build aims to get, optimal probe saturation AFTER your second gas so you can CONTINUE your warpgate production WHILE teching. I guarantee you will NOT be impossibly behind in the game if you open up with the 24 probe build and do NOT scout the all-in. Like I said, if people are "faking" a 4 gate, just punish their probe, stalker, and zealot that comes out of their base with 3 stalkers. A variation that I didn't seem to mention is the fact that IF your opponent is NOT going to 4 gate you, and this is obvious, your 4th AND 5th units SHOULD be stalkers. They will walk to your opponents base FASTER. I didn't think that needed it's own part as people can make variations off of any build they see but if you guys want to take that as the standard response to no aggression, go for it. In the end, the THREAT of a 4 gate sitting on his door step (a STRONGER 4 gate actually) will lead to him NOT greedily snatching up tech, and most likely get 1-2 sentries. Considering your probe counts should be even at BEST, you aren't actually very behind gas-wise. On August 26 2011 16:39 Anomandaris wrote: I don't understand. What if your opponent doesn't 4 gate? On eu server they all have 4 gate proof builds with relatively fast tech. Barely anyone 4 gatesanymore. If you didn't read my previous posts, the reason I kinda decided TODAY was the day to post this, was BECAUSE I read the patch. I personally don't know about the EU server, but out of the 4 games I played yesterday, 2 people did 4 gates, 1 person (rsvp) did a FAKE 4 gate but actually a 3 gate with chrono (I think). He TECHED I believe in the game, got gas a bit early, but was ALSO forced to build a sentry. I won. This isn't with a glaring mistake like a mis-blink or something, this was because you are NOT that far behind (if even behind at all) when you execute this build. He even was on top of the exchange early game, but still lost to me eventually. Considering I'm STILL a high school student who doesn't have my entire day dedicated to starcraft, and managing to bring back a game where I am supposedly "behind" against someone of rsvp's caliber, shows you this build doesn't put you in a game-ending situation if they do not 4 gate you. Oh, by the way since I remembered you were from EU, Adelscott played on NA servers for some tournament a LONG while back, and I did this build as it was in it's beginning stages (as in the timings weren't crisp yet) and beat him too. Just to show you the standard level at which this build can perform at. On August 26 2011 22:41 4kmonk wrote: Just a few notes First, I'm going to summarize my understanding of your build. This seems just like a normal 3 stalkers rush with 1 gas that transitions into 4 gate. Kiwikaki used a very similar build a few patches ago. He used 2 less chornoboost on probes, but chornoboosted his stalkers twice. The end result is almost exactly the same. The big difference is that you end up with 1 or 2 more probes and an opponent may think you're being overly greedy. Correct me if I'm wrong and there's actually more differences. My biggest criticism of your build is that throughout your entire guide, you seem to emphasize your opponent should sense that you cannot hold a 4 gate and then 4 gate to his death. However, I think a smart player will not go for the offensive 4 gate. After all, 2 gas into 3 stalker rush gives you stalkers at the exact same time or faster and that build stops 4 gate. I believe if your opponent does any other standard defensive build or even 1 gate tech, he will be way ahead. Overall, it feels like this build falls behind any non 4 gate and in my opinion has an over-reliance on your opponent being tricked. Next, because you use 4 chornoboosts on your probes, your opponent can almost with certainty rule out the standard all out 4 gate and thus even attempt to go a fake 4 gate opening but actually go 1 gate robo with a late gas, putting him very ahead. Finally, because your build is essentially a 3 stalker rush with 1 gas, I believe it is very susceptible to a gas steal. It's even more susceptible than a normal 3 stalker rush, because you don't save chornoboosts for your stalkers. If you don't attempt to kill the gas, you broadcast to your opponent that you're either 4 gating or fast expoing. If you do attempt to kill the gas, you lose your ability to definitively hold a 4 gate or you can get a probe get into your base, scouting all your buildings. To be honest, I have no clue what KiWiKaKi's build is. I can tell you honestly that I'm 1-2 versus him on NA ladder though  He was practicing for MLG the morning before I think 3-4 months ago and that's when I started to experiment with this build. That being said, I don't think I'm a better player than him in any means so I guess the score reflects that. My teammate RevSerp (a high master / GM player) and I tested this build about 8 times on Xel'naga Caverns yesterday. The final score was 7-1. The ONE build he managed to beat me with (after using it 3 times) was 1 gate robo. He got his 2nd gas at 19 and MANAGED to have enough. I'm sorry but a stalker doesn't come out NEARLY fast enough to deny my scout of a 19 gas. That will make me take my gas, and choose a different build (at the moment, 3 gate blink stalkers) and I wouldn't be using this build any longer. I actually decided to force the engagement into the immortal + sentry and stalker dotted ramp and still won 3/4 games he did this build.For your 2nd point, you kinda just hit the nail on the hammer and proved what I said before. When your opponent doesn't see a 4 gate, he WILL 4 gate a LOT of the time. It's very difficult to FAKE a 4 gate 4 chronoboosts into a match don't you think? If anything I think that'll put you even further behind against my build which NEEDS crisp timings to execute. You can't hide anything for 3-4 seconds and chase a scout away. You NEED to be active with your stalkers and chase them away BEFORE they become a problem, as you will have literally 5 seconds of leeway in this build throughout the first 6 minutes. For your last point, a gas steal is a build that I've NEVER lost to when doing this (pre 1.4 anyways) You don't just have 2 options. My follow up to this: Same build Use 4th and 5th zealot to kill the assimilator while 4 gating the front. 2 things will happen: a) he will think you have less forces because 2 zealots are at your main, then realize after first warp in that there are 7 stalkers in front of their ramp. More stalkers than a regular 4 gate. They will charge out, and die because they are trying to fight DOWN a ramp. b) he will cut on sentries because you have less forces and think it is a feint at a 4 gate. Funny thing is, it IS a feint at a 4 gate, but higher econ and JUST as scary as a 4 gate. If you poke with your proxy probe and check the energies on the sentries, see only 1 FF, warp 1 zealot at a time up the ramp and place your stalkers below the edge that's closest to his army. Snipe the key units as his sentry will already FF and be useless. You have 4 zealots aka 8 volleys of shots you can do on your opponents units if they do NOT move from the edge. When they MOVE from the edge, wait for FF's to subside (if he builds another sentry send your zealots on top to attack it and either kill it if it forces a FF, or push it away long enough to walk in his base) It's pretty much a standard 4 gate, except you have the economy to get 2nd as without cutting units AND you have MORE stalkers for the volleys on the low ground. If you really want the replay to see this, look at me vs. rsvp. He did a 3 gate AND gas steal. However was forced to pump out sentries and delay his tech because of the fear of my counter 4 gate. On August 26 2011 23:13 Defeat wrote: A naniwa 4 gate will have 7 stalkers and 3/4 zealots at roughly 6:15. I'd be interested in seeing this build hold that off. So you are saying the naniwa build (which I have no clue what it is) will build the first zealot in exchange for sacking improved economy. I hope you do realize that 16 probes on minerals doesn't actually fully support a 4 gate. It supports a 4 gate that LOSES units in fights so you don't need extra pylons EVERY warp in. If you have the same units but 1 less zealot, but you have the choke advantage, I don't see where you are definitively at a loss. It requires micro, yes, but you still have an economic lead by 3-4 probes, whereas your opponents mindset is "kill him or kill probes or I lose", yours is "sit in base with good positioning and wait for your opponent to force himself in your base at a bad angle" EDIT: For all the people saying this will become obsolete in PvP, certain maps like Tal'darim are still viable, but yes, it will become a LOT less effective. To be honest, I wouldn't have posted this build (much like the PvZ build I'm experimenting with right now) on TL if it would be working for weeks and months to come. Why? I want wins. I don't have as much time as the pros to practice, but I sure as hell can make my timings so crisp that I can make up for that difference. My new PvZ on ladder has brought me a 4-1 win rate (when refined) so far, and I don't think losses to a 6 pool last scout on tal'darim counts as a loss -.- | ||
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WeaVerPrime
34 Posts
edit: no, 6 pool doesn't count ^^ now i want your pvz build ;PPPP | ||
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serpyderp
12 Posts
On August 26 2011 16:50 Anomandaris wrote: And what if you have a sentry? he won't be able to get pylons below your ramp, so you will just roll him by cutting his force in half. Getting a quick robo AND council is auto loss vs blink anyay, you shouldn't do that. Why cant they get pylons at your ramp? And who said that? I'm pretty sure HuK does that every game pvp and he doesn't lose to straight blink...what league are you in? | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On August 27 2011 05:10 serpyderp wrote: Why cant they get pylons at your ramp? And who said that? I'm pretty sure HuK does that every game pvp and he doesn't lose to straight blink...what league are you in? Anomandaris is right. Straight robo + twilight is autoloss vs blink all. All of Huk's recent games involve him going very greedy while his opponents play safe and don't allin him. For more information on this, check my robo twilight guide in my profile. | ||
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Randomaccount111
29 Posts
On August 26 2011 23:13 Defeat wrote: A naniwa 4 gate will have 7 stalkers and 3/4 zealots at roughly 6:15. I'd be interested in seeing this build hold that off. Do you have a replay or written build order for a Naniwa 4-gate? I'd like to see it if you do, please. OP: This looks like a pretty solid option.. Thanks for the post. | ||
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quillian
United States318 Posts
26 Build two stalkers out of your gateways, they should line up almost perfectly. 28 Build 2 more gateways This doesn't line up in supply. is it 30 build 2 more gateways, or do gateways fall between 2 stalkers? edit: These timings seem to line up better in my tests in game and sc2calc. 9 pylon 10 probe* 12 gateway 12 scout 12 probe* 14 assimilator > transfer 3 17 pylon 17 cybernetics core 19 gateway 19 warpgate*** 19 stalker 23 pylon 24 stalker [2] 30 gateway [2] 30 zealot [2] 34 pylon [2] 34 transform to warpgate [4] 34 stalker [4] I've never experienced having to wait to 18 (vs 17) for cyber or till after warpgate to start 2nd gate in my games. Are you using a 3rd chrono boost on probes before cyber that I'm not? (I'm also scouting on 12 here after gateway, which is different than your stated post) I'm NOT GM so please advise as how yours work better. I'd like to understand what I'm missing. edit 2: I guess 9 scout 17 cyber cuts a probe for a few seconds. this is probably why the difference cropped up. watched replay, i do see you get the gateway before warpgate and squeeze in more probes. that's the point of this post I guess, maximum probes while keeping up with 4 gate timing. I'll practice it, Thanks! | ||
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Ihsahn
Chile132 Posts
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Chrumo
Poland9 Posts
Thank You so much for this guide. I was also not familiar with the crisp timing of 3 stalkers opening (that these 2 gates syncs perfectly). I am now using it against terran as well, with outstanding result against 2 marauder and scv pressure Thank You once again! | ||
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SaroVati
Canada280 Posts
On August 28 2011 00:18 quillian wrote: This doesn't line up in supply. is it 30 build 2 more gateways, or do gateways fall between 2 stalkers? edit: These timings seem to line up better in my tests in game and sc2calc. 9 pylon 10 probe* 12 gateway 12 scout 12 probe* 14 assimilator > transfer 3 17 pylon 17 cybernetics core 19 gateway 19 warpgate*** 19 stalker 23 pylon 24 stalker [2] 30 gateway [2] 30 zealot [2] 34 pylon [2] 34 transform to warpgate [4] 34 stalker [4] I've never experienced having to wait to 18 (vs 17) for cyber or till after warpgate to start 2nd gate in my games. Are you using a 3rd chrono boost on probes before cyber that I'm not? (I'm also scouting on 12 here after gateway, which is different than your stated post) I'm NOT GM so please advise as how yours work better. I'd like to understand what I'm missing. edit 2: I guess 9 scout 17 cyber cuts a probe for a few seconds. this is probably why the difference cropped up. watched replay, i do see you get the gateway before warpgate and squeeze in more probes. that's the point of this post I guess, maximum probes while keeping up with 4 gate timing. I'll practice it, Thanks! Ah I DID seem to fudge up the build, my apologies. The replay I was watching while getting the supply down was a variation where I SHOULD'VE been at 29 supply because I did the safer variation, BUT my scout probe died ( ew ) so my supply went down to 28. Thanks for clarifying that for me I changed it in my opening post! And yeah like I said, it's up to personal preference. I found these timings to work better for my style (as I do NOT like to lose to 2 gate, proxy 2 gate, or cannon rushes), but as I said it's completely up to you! Regardless of if you aren't a GM level player, you can still steer a little away from a build and make it your own and comforting I just wanted my build up here so people could see a crisp timing build that gets you a small advantage in the general PvP 4 gate madness that happens on maps like Tal'darim Alter. | ||
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quillian
United States318 Posts
Yeah it looks like you were starting stalkers on 22-23. and both gateways before 30 usually. Thank You so much for this guide. I was also not familiar with the crisp timing of 3 stalkers opening (that these 2 gates syncs perfectly) Seconded! I really like how well everything lines up, that you can get 5 units out just in time for a fast WG. I will be adding this to my rotation! | ||
The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
On August 26 2011 15:57 serpyderp wrote: IT CAN BE BEATEN Duh. Very nice guide, I'll be looking into it. | ||
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quillian
United States318 Posts
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SaroVati
Canada280 Posts
On August 29 2011 01:39 quillian wrote: oh yeah, have you ever tried slipping in a zealot while cyber is building like traditional 4 gate? how wildly does this throw your build off? I have never tried to do this, nor do I think it would work  Right now you are BARELY squeezing out minerals for the pylons to not get supply blocked, and BARELY squeezing the units out when they need to be built. My guess is you could make the first few minutes of this build work by cutting 2 probes in favour of the zealot, but eventually those 2 probes will haunt you and you won't have enough resources to build the 3rd and 4th gate for example AND keep the timing that this warpgate hits. | ||
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Ulfsark
United States958 Posts
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Kornholi0
Canada634 Posts
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Cloudshade
91 Posts
On August 29 2011 03:20 Kornholi0 wrote: Didn't CombatEx do a PvP 4gate on one of his VODs? I don't like CombatEx but the one he showed seemed very precise and clean.. What is the difference between the one he does and the one you do? .....why not look at the build and figure it out yourself? it's clearly written out...you're basically asking people to feed you food that they made for you....quit being so lazy.. | ||
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