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On August 29 2011 03:20 Kornholi0 wrote:
Didn't CombatEx do a PvP 4gate on one of his VODs? I don't like CombatEx but the one he showed seemed very precise and clean.. What is the difference between the one he does and the one you do?
First off, I wouldn't know where, when or what CombatEX's 4 gate PvP is.
Secondly, just cause he does a precise and clean 4 gate doesn't mean it's anywhere close to the same as my build lol. I can pull off a clean, precise, 1 gate -> 4 gate timing that is just a standard 4gate. So yeah unless you have a link to the thread / video where CombatEX did "his" 4 gate I wouldn't be able to comment on that 
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I've been trying this and although it's okay, what do you do when your opponent decides to grab his 2nd gas and turtle in his base with sentries?
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On August 29 2011 12:59 NineteenSC2 wrote:
I've been trying this and although it's okay, what do you do when your opponent decides to grab his 2nd gas and turtle in his base with sentries?
First off, I really only suggest to do this build on Tal'darim or if you KNOW your opponent will 4 gate. There are countless 3 stalker pressure builds out there that I suggest you learn so you can take your own 2nd gas and continue.
If you REALLY want to use my build all the way through, you will most likely lose. This is the truth. If your SCOUT probe can SEE a 2nd gas being thrown down before the first stalker is out to kill it, there is a severe problem if you continue using this, unless you want to 4 gate him anyways. I personally take my 2nd gas, and I'm usually AHEAD in economy (albeit behind in 12-16 gas) because the first 4-5 chronoboosts are ALL dedicated to PROBES. Every "safe" 4 gate build that takes a 2nd gas tells you to SAVE at least 1 chrono boost for warp gate. Most of them tell you to save 2. You will not only have a probe advantage, but FULL map control. Poke with 3 stalkers, pressure him. It will make sure your opponent won't cut ANY corners, and thus allow you to get further ahead if you get a tad greedy here and there.
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I just think you won this because you had so much better macro. But thanks on guide.
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On August 29 2011 13:25 ReiKo wrote:
I just think you won this because you had so much better macro. But thanks on guide.
Doesn't macro entail.... sharp unit producing TIMINGS and spending your money just as you get it? That's kinda what build orders are... to set up your macro game. I think that the "macro" aspect to this build is the one reason why it might have a slight edge over a raw 4 gate with no timings, just chrono warpgate and make extra gateways.
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Interesting build, but if the new patch goes through, I suggest most/all of you start coming up/getting used to doing a different build because I think 4 gate is potentially dead. But as of right now, it's a really cool build. Another cool alternative come up with a non-pro that is viable. I really like reading the strategy section sometimes. People come up with really interesting ways to do things.
Not sure if this has been asked though....is there a way to squeeze in a first Zealot or do you strictly limit this to pure Stalker at the start?
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On August 29 2011 13:52 ma70 wrote:
Interesting build, but if the new patch goes through, I suggest most/all of you start coming up/getting used to doing a different build because I think 4 gate is potentially dead. But as of right now, it's a really cool build. Another cool alternative come up with a non-pro that is viable. I really like reading the strategy section sometimes. People come up with really interesting ways to do things.
Not sure if this has been asked though....is there a way to squeeze in a first Zealot or do you strictly limit this to pure Stalker at the start?
Yeah like I've said previously, one of the main motivating things that made me post this was BECAUSE I heard of the patch notes. If my build won't be as effective as before, might as well post it now right?
And yeah that question has already been asked, you'd have to sacrifice 2 probes early to sneak that zealot in. Unfortunately, cutting 2 probes relatively early in the build (about 19 supply) will render the rest of the build USELESS. This is because the rest of the build BARELY has enough resources as it is to work. Cutting 2 harvesters isn't ideal.
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I don't play protoss but thoroughly enjoyed reading your guide and the nuances of the matchup / four gate. Well written and cool stuff.
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On August 29 2011 13:57 SaroVati wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 13:52 ma70 wrote:
Interesting build, but if the new patch goes through, I suggest most/all of you start coming up/getting used to doing a different build because I think 4 gate is potentially dead. But as of right now, it's a really cool build. Another cool alternative come up with a non-pro that is viable. I really like reading the strategy section sometimes. People come up with really interesting ways to do things.
Not sure if this has been asked though....is there a way to squeeze in a first Zealot or do you strictly limit this to pure Stalker at the start? Yeah like I've said previously, one of the main motivating things that made me post this was BECAUSE I heard of the patch notes. If my build won't be as effective as before, might as well post it now right? And yeah that question has already been asked, you'd have to sacrifice 2 probes early to sneak that zealot in. Unfortunately, cutting 2 probes relatively early in the build (about 19 supply) will render the rest of the build USELESS. This is because the rest of the build BARELY has enough resources as it is to work. Cutting 2 harvesters isn't ideal.
Yeah, I figured something like this. getting rid of the Probe "advantage" totally messes with the idea of the build. For awhile I had a build VERY similar to this but I hadn't worked out the timings exactly, then what a surprise, I see a build that did it for me, haha. Unfortunately 4G seems to be dying. I enjoyed the guide though. :D
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I dont think a defensive 4 gate is much to be praised nowaday's
there are ways to hold the 4 gate with less then 4 gateways...
Not to mention that 4 gate will be relatively dead once patch 1.4 hits
Also, how do you deal with getting your gas stolen?
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This build seems good but its flawed if they take your gas and go fast blink stalkers you will be in a lot of trouble on maps like taldarim.
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It looks interesting, definitely going to try that out. I hate pvp recently because of the 4gates all the time and this looks like a decent answer to that lol. Usually I've been relying on sentries to hold XD
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I've a question. It seems to me like this build is set up to "blindly" counter 4-gates (I type blindly because in some cases your 2nd gate will be placed prior to you scouting the opponents main). So what happens if the other guy went e.g. 3gate blink or 3gate robo? You spending 150 extra mineral on a gateway that you didnt really need could put him ahead, no?
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On August 29 2011 04:10 SaroVati wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 03:20 Kornholi0 wrote:
Didn't CombatEx do a PvP 4gate on one of his VODs? I don't like CombatEx but the one he showed seemed very precise and clean.. What is the difference between the one he does and the one you do? First off, I wouldn't know where, when or what CombatEX's 4 gate PvP is. Secondly, just cause he does a precise and clean 4 gate doesn't mean it's anywhere close to the same as my build lol. I can pull off a clean, precise, 1 gate -> 4 gate timing that is just a standard 4gate. So yeah unless you have a link to the thread / video where CombatEX did "his" 4 gate I wouldn't be able to comment on that
http://www.youtube.com/user/Wasif1112#p/u/1/XVI1NEEfX7s
Well here you go..
To the other person, I don't play protoss at all. I was just curious how his 4gate compares to "other" 4gates what the difference is, and why one is better than the other.
Its merely speculation and for the educated togetherness of the SCII community as me being zerg face the common 4gate as well :|
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I wonder if it's also a viable build in PvT and PvZ...the old four gate was powerful then, why not a more powerful version now?
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On August 29 2011 16:39 Checkm8 wrote:
I wonder if it's also a viable build in PvT and PvZ...the old four gate was powerful then, why not a more powerful version now?
For PvZ, The immediate issue I see is the skipping of the first zealot. If they go for early lings your kinda crippled and wont be able to carry it out properly.
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That's kinda what build orders are... to set up your macro game.
God that was sublime. That's exactly what build orders are for. Set up your macro game.
Set it up with options with responses, no instant deaths
YOU the player steps in and macro games.
Very poetic. Gonna use this PvP TalDarim =)
Chrono boosts on probes begs the 4gate so many times anyways =)
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I really love that build. And unlike what others are saying here, I believe it has tons of potential, even after the upcoming patch. It's not only safe vs a 4 gate, it's also got a strong eco and allows you to quickly transition to teching if you scout that your opponent takes his 2nd gas, and you're not far behind ! Think about it, you have your scouting probe in his base and he can't get ride of it until he has a stalker. That means either he takes his 2nd gas and you take yours immediately ( you're in no way delayed and have a stronger eco since you chronoed your probes so much ); either he waits that your probe is out to take is 2nd gas, but then you'll poke with your 3 stalkers and since he cannot be guaranteed that you won't rush him, he'll have to play defensively, warping a sentry. In that case, as soon as you're sure he's not 4-gating you, you can take your 2nd gas, and you won't be that far behind as you won't have a sentry..
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On August 29 2011 14:50 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
I dont think a defensive 4 gate is much to be praised nowaday's
there are ways to hold the 4 gate with less then 4 gateways...
Not to mention that 4 gate will be relatively dead once patch 1.4 hits
Also, how do you deal with getting your gas stolen?
Like I've stated probably 4 times , this build most likely will die out on maps with ramps when patch 1.4 hits. If my gas gets stolen, I usually 4 gate my opponent, or do a 2 gate expo -> 4 gate defend (yes, 4 gate. If you save your chronoboost, you can actually get more units out of your 4 gate than a 5 gate, and usually defend against certain timings meant to break you)
On August 29 2011 15:22 Hister wrote:
This build seems good but its flawed if they take your gas and go fast blink stalkers you will be in a lot of trouble on maps like taldarim.
I'm sorry, but find ANYONE, I dare you to even find oGsMC, tell him to GAS steal me on Tal'darim and then rush blink. I will confidently say he will NOT win the game lol. Those are the PERFECT options for this build to absolutely crush a PvP.
On August 29 2011 15:39 Thraundil wrote:
I've a question. It seems to me like this build is set up to "blindly" counter 4-gates (I type blindly because in some cases your 2nd gate will be placed prior to you scouting the opponents main). So what happens if the other guy went e.g. 3gate blink or 3gate robo? You spending 150 extra mineral on a gateway that you didnt really need could put him ahead, no?
Well, I usually 9 scout so a high percentage of my games I always scout his base first, but you can't confidently go 3 gate robo or 3 gate blink WITHOUT an early gas. If I see that, I usually take my 2nd gas as well. Secondly, 3 gate blink and 3 gate robo cut probes at 20 / 22 anyways, so you will still have an advantage. Hell, if you went 3 gate blink or 3 gate robo AFTER you saw his build you wouldn't be in a game-ending disadvantage.
On August 29 2011 16:03 Kornholi0 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 04:10 SaroVati wrote:On August 29 2011 03:20 Kornholi0 wrote:
Didn't CombatEx do a PvP 4gate on one of his VODs? I don't like CombatEx but the one he showed seemed very precise and clean.. What is the difference between the one he does and the one you do? First off, I wouldn't know where, when or what CombatEX's 4 gate PvP is. Secondly, just cause he does a precise and clean 4 gate doesn't mean it's anywhere close to the same as my build lol. I can pull off a clean, precise, 1 gate -> 4 gate timing that is just a standard 4gate. So yeah unless you have a link to the thread / video where CombatEX did "his" 4 gate I wouldn't be able to comment on that http://www.youtube.com/user/Wasif1112#p/u/1/XVI1NEEfX7sWell here you go.. To the other person, I don't play protoss at all. I was just curious how his 4gate compares to "other" 4gates what the difference is, and why one is better than the other. Its merely speculation and for the educated togetherness of the SCII community as me being zerg face the common 4gate as well :|
Lol this 4 gate is a standard 4 gate. The difference between his "very precise and clean" 4 gate and mine is completely different.
a) my plat friends could pull a 4 gate almost identically to this.
b) there are 0 timings associated with this build outside of when to build the gateways.
When he selected his probes, I counted exactly 16 on mineral patches, and 3 on gas, with 1 scouting probe. That is a STANDARD 20 probe 4 gate. That is what this build intends to destroy, and if he stays back for his 2nd wave as CombatEX says is SOOOOO important, that will give his build 0 advantages over mine, and he will get his world rocked.
The real difference is this 4 gate hits about 15-20 seconds after a standard 4 gate. The other difference is that there is more map presence early on, you counter 3 gate stalker openings, and have MORE economy than a standard 4 gate, WHILE having 7 stalkers and 2 zealots, rather than 6 stalkers and 1 zealot.
On August 29 2011 17:50 Danglars wrote:God that was sublime. That's exactly what build orders are for. Set up your macro game. Set it up with options with responses, no instant deaths YOU the player steps in and macro games. Very poetic. Gonna use this PvP TalDarim =) Chrono boosts on probes begs the 4gate so many times anyways =)
Hehe yeah that's what I've been trying to emphasize, this build doesn't leave you cramped (because of the strong economy), but at the same time doesn't allow for a loss against a 4 gate all in (in fact handles it very nicely)
And again, people tell me that NO ONE will 4 gate you anymore. Tal'darim + 4 chronoboosts on probes without a first zealot? That BEGS a 4 gate lol Thanks for the support 
On August 29 2011 18:05 Nyast wrote:
I really love that build. And unlike what others are saying here, I believe it has tons of potential, even after the upcoming patch. It's not only safe vs a 4 gate, it's also got a strong eco and allows you to quickly transition to teching if you scout that your opponent takes his 2nd gas, and you're not far behind ! Think about it, you have your scouting probe in his base and he can't get ride of it until he has a stalker. That means either he takes his 2nd gas and you take yours immediately ( you're in no way delayed and have a stronger eco since you chronoed your probes so much ); either he waits that your probe is out to take is 2nd gas, but then you'll poke with your 3 stalkers and since he cannot be guaranteed that you won't rush him, he'll have to play defensively, warping a sentry. In that case, as soon as you're sure he's not 4-gating you, you can take your 2nd gas, and you won't be that far behind as you won't have a sentry..
Hehe thank you for summing up what I've been saying in stray posts here and there to respond to people. This build is NOT something you follow when your opponent takes his fast 2nd gas. You take yours in response and actually progress through the volatile early game on even footing. Thanks for the support
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On August 29 2011 16:03 Kornholi0 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/user/Wasif1112#p/u/1/XVI1NEEfX7sWell here you go.. To the other person, I don't play protoss at all. I was just curious how his 4gate compares to "other" 4gates what the difference is, and why one is better than the other. Its merely speculation and for the educated togetherness of the SCII community as me being zerg face the common 4gate as well :|
Lol this 4 gate is a standard 4 gate. The difference between his "very precise and clean" 4 gate and mine is completely different.
a) my plat friends could pull a 4 gate almost identically to this.
b) there are 0 timings associated with this build outside of when to build the gateways.
When he selected his probes, I counted exactly 16 on mineral patches, and 3 on gas, with 1 scouting probe. That is a STANDARD 20 probe 4 gate. That is what this build intends to destroy, and if he stays back for his 2nd wave as CombatEX says is SOOOOO important, that will give his build 0 advantages over mine, and he will get his world rocked.
The real difference is this 4 gate hits about 15-20 seconds after a standard 4 gate. The other difference is that there is more map presence early on, you counter 3 gate stalker openings, and have MORE economy than a standard 4 gate, WHILE having 7 stalkers and 2 zealots, rather than 6 stalkers and 1 zealot.
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So you are saying that you could beat CombatEx in a PvP because your build > then his build. (Aside from any macro/afterthefact differences).
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EPT
