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Alright. That title might actually be misleading in a way, but I assure you it fits as well. Since I'm not an established poster (or even player I guess), I'll just introduce myself as RevSaroVati, part of Revoki gaming, and a protoss player at the high master / GM level. This guide I'm writing up is actually a build I've been using on ladder for a good 2-3 weeks with about 70-80% success against players such as FXOpTiKzErO and multiple other top 50 GM level players. Since I'm not really one to waste time, I'll go straight into the build and analyze when, why, and how you should be approaching this build. And I know for SURE I'm going to get flack for the basic opening, but it's just a personal preference that can be adjusted by you yourself if you dislike it. I'll note where this is.
9 Pylon (1 chrono on probes after pylon finishes, I scout with my probe RIGHT after this to deny cheesy losses)
13 Gate (here is where the discretion comes... if you didn't 9 scout, make a 12 gate I guess, 1 chrono on probes after gateway plops down)
15 Assimilator (1 chrono when you get 25 energy, 3 on gas RIGHT when it finishes. This is VERY important)
17 Pylon
18 Cybernetics Core (Stalker out of gateway and warp gate research instantly)
20/21 2nd Gateway (whichever allows you a continuous production of probes. This line is so fine that it depends on your worker split at the start of the game, as well as mineral stacking early game to tell whether it'll be a 20 or 21 gate)
I shall stop the build here and now give you the first 2 variations of this build, as I think a stagnant build order is terrible and easily counterable.
1. The first variation is your SAFEST variation against an aggressive 20 probe 4 gate. I can say with almost COMPLETE confidence that I can personally hold off nearly every 4 gate that comes my way with this unless something terribly goes wrong. The variation is quite simple.
a) Spend your next 3 chrono boosts on your warp gate research
b) Cut probes at 23 (at the current part of the build order, this should be 25/26 supply)
2. The second variation is the more greedy variation (that I have held off against GM level players as well). If you feel you are not as good as the other player by a significant margin in areas like macro, strategy, and timings, but have solid micro skills, this variation will help give you the edge you need. That being said if you think you are better than your opponent period, use the safer version to prevent a loss versus a player that shouldn't beat you.
a) Spend your next 3 chrono boosts on your warp gate research
b) Cut probes at 24 (at the current part of the build order, this should be 26/26 supply. You might be saying "this guy is retarded, there is a 1 probe difference, that's not a variation!" You know, you may be right, but when your units are literally WARPING in when the first 6 stalkers and zealot poke your base, an extra 4 seconds for your units to ACTUALLY warp in helps a ton)
Anyways I will now continue with the build:
24/25 Pylon (both of these #'s will make sure you aren't supply blocked)
26 Build two stalkers out of your gateways, they should line up almost perfectly.
29/30 Build 2 more gateways (supply depends on what variation you did)
29/30 After your two stalkers finish, build two ZEALOTS. Yes, zealots. The 4 second faster build time zealots have than stalkers DOES matter in this build. (again, the supply depends on what variation you are doing)
Next 100 minerals goes to a pylon. Because I don't know which variation you would be following by now, it'd be pointless to give you a number, but it is either 33 or 34
When your warpgate research finishes, so should all of your gateways and your 2 last zealots popping out. This will leave you with 3 stalkers, 2 zealots, and a short incoming burst of 4 stalkers. That will leave you with 7 stalkers and 2 zealots at the 6:10 mark. You will come crying to me that 4 gate hits at 5:50 when executed very well. Well, let's see. There will at least be a 10 second walking distance especially if you retreat far enough into your base (let them hit your warp gates, they wont kill them.) That accounts for 10 seconds of uncertainty (with the more aggressive variation). You have 2 time delaying devices. The first, and most obvious one, is use your fast 3 stalkers to deny the probe, pylon, and first couple units. The timing is lined up so that the zealot and stalker reach your base AS your 2nd and 3rd stalker pop out. I've had games where aggressive protoss's charge in because they see 1 stalker and have 3 stalkers greet them and allow me to kill both the stalker AND the zealot for practically free. This is game-ending in itself. Your 2nd option is to poke with the 3 stalkers you have when his warp-in finishes, and this will usually make him hesitate about madly a-moving straight to your base.
Now comes the tricky part. There is no timing for the last step, but you will just have to find a time for it. If you cut probes at 23, you will need to build 3 probes DURING the 4 gate fest. Yes, during. You need to find a time where you DON'T need a pylon (always have 8 supply free when warpins are almost done cooldown), and also when you don't need the minerals for the warpin round of units. If you cut probes at 24, you will only need to build 2 probes, and they will be much faster considering you've had an extra probe for a few minutes. At 26 probes, you will then find a time to drop your second ASSIMILATOR (this could be after, or even during the 4 gate fight, as seen in my replay vs. iNkA)
If executed correctly, your opponent will walk into your base and overextend himself, only to find 7 stalkers and 2 zealots fight their 6 stalkers and 1 zealot. You should be able to overrun this force and win because of your economic AND army LEAD.
Of course, this isn't unstoppable. I've played dozens of games and my win-rate is still hovering between 70-80%. How do I lose? Either I get out-micro'd, which isn't a build fault, or the protoss builds his 3rd pylon legitimately in my base to cancel ALL attempts at delaying his 4 gate. If the latter is scouted, you can actually bring 3 probes to attack the pylon AS it starts building (it will be 20 probes vs. 19 probes as his scout probe will be in your base so you will still have an economic lead, while eliminating this threat) If they build their 3rd pylon in your base and you DON'T see it, expect a gg unless their micro blows. The other 20% of my losses comes from my blink transition running into a DT tech switch that is unscouted by me til DT's swipe at my units, or something that is un-related to the build itself.
The best parts of the build summed up in short:
- It invites 4 gates to attack you. Literally. What do you think would happen on tal'darim when they see a 2nd gateway before a unit?
- It absolutely stomps 3 stalker pressure. The stalkers get to your base.... to meet 3 stalkers... then get wrecked by your 4 stalker warp in as they retreat back to their base.
- If he fakes 4 gate and does a 24/26 probe defensive 4 gate, you are even on probes. Albeit maybe a bit behind in tech, but hey, you could always just 4 gate him and win because your army is SUPERIOR (hesitant on this because you can throw away a game by forcing a 4 gate on a map with a ramp)
The flaws in the build:
- If the opponent hates his life and slips by your 3 stalkers and builds 3 pylons in your base and 4 gates you, there is a 90% chance you will LOSE. Long story short, use your stalkers.
- If your patience isn't top notch, you will also lose your edge / the game vs. a standard 20 probe 4 gate.
- If your in-game awareness of when to build the 2/3 extra probes due to your economic lead isn't too great, you might just fudge up a lead.
Replays, replays, replays! I decided to make this thread today, and I only had 4 PvP's today, so forgive me for the lack of extensive replays. I will upload more as I ladder more. (by the way 4/4 wins today as well so you know it works  )
http://replayfu.com/download/hdmshq vs VPBonk
http://replayfu.com/download/NxR6T vs coLrsvp
http://replayfu.com/download/ZPwh1n vs QxGiNkA
http://replayfu.com/download/cz03Cp vs TaraEunjung
P.S. I will ONLY upload ladder replays. No point crushing people in custom with a build, it won't prove effective to watch or learn from at all
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thanks a lot for this guide. There are a lot of great tips and nuances that as an off-racing protoss I wouldn't know or think about. thanks again for posting 
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Very nice guide.
Sometimes the most subtle attention to detail can have dramatic impact in this matchup.
If you can account for the travel time in a safe enough manner (give or take 10 seconds), the extra two zealots can easily make a big difference while coming out ahead in economy. This is a build that will reward very crisp play.
I will say that we've seen quite a lot of 3 stalker into 4 gate, so I wonder about how long that mind game will work, but the extra zealots are very nice.
Edit: PvP is also similar to ZvZ in that between 20 probes and full saturation, the player who can squeeze in as many probes and take that second assimilator at ~23 probes will get a substantial advantage. Which is something we see often in play, but has not really been talked about much in PvP strategy. It's good that you point this out!
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I will definitely check this out once my client is done patching. I had some troubles holding off the 4gate with 3stalker rush and extra probes. I wonder though, what if your opponent goes for a fake 4gate, but then goes greedy, takes the 2nd gas and goes 1gate -> twilight blink. Shouldn't his blink finish waaay before yours? He can then proceed to go to your ramp and micro his way to victory against your (delayed) blink.
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Wow, seems like you did some serious homework on hammering out the timings for this to work, and the replays are solid evidence that it works. The big thing is - what happens when enemies recognize what you're doing and study you? Will you have enough intel to know that they're NOT 4gating you (especially with builds that fake a 4gate)
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On August 26 2011 15:30 Doler wrote:
I will definitely check this out once my client is done patching. I had some troubles holding off the 4gate with 3stalker rush and extra probes. I wonder though, what if your opponent goes for a fake 4gate, but then goes greedy, takes the 2nd gas and goes 1gate -> twilight blink. Shouldn't his blink finish waaay before yours? He can then proceed to go to your ramp and micro his way to victory against your (delayed) blink.
That would be true, except if your first 3 stalkers meet 0 pressure, poke his front and bring a probe along. If people have trouble against a normal 4 gate, how will they deal with 7 stalkers and 2 zealots? Plus, you should be economically sound. Of course this build can't counter everything, but from my perspective it counters 90% of the current metagame, which will yield you a ratio that is way above the projected 50% if done right!
On August 26 2011 15:33 sylverfyre wrote:
Wow, seems like you did some serious homework on hammering out the timings for this to work, and the replays are solid evidence that it works. The big thing is - what happens when enemies recognize what you're doing and study you? Will you have enough intel to know that they're NOT 4gating you (especially with builds that fake a 4gate)
Yeah this has started to pop up. Normally I play the same protoss 2-3 times because when your MMR is high, sometimes there is only 1 player who is at the same MMR so you repeatedly play each other. All I can say is, what are the real options? You can't expand. You can't 4 gate (well you can, it just comes down to those subtle timings), and I've actually held off 6 stalkers and 1 zealot with 3 stalkers and 2 zealots. Yes, I lost both the zealots, but I sniped the stalker and bought enough time for my warp in. That's 7 stalkers vs. 5 stalkers and a zealot. You still have an advantage!
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Good guide, have seen variations of this build (defensive 3 stalker with econ>defensive 4gate), but in the end no matter how good the build is PvP almost always comes down to which player has the better unit control/game sense. This build just helps give you a better chance to win - props on that! Good guide and well explained.
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On August 26 2011 14:45 SaroVati wrote:
you will also lose your edge / the game
omg why did you word it like that?
thanks for the guide, it sounds interesting. really hate how pvp is all about strict strict timings that boil down to the second >< do you think this build will still be viable after patch 1.4? it seems like you would be forced to either all in, or throw down a nexus instead of a 4th gateway. is all inning even an option with the immortal buff and the heavy stalker count this build has?
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On August 26 2011 15:49 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 14:45 SaroVati wrote:
you will also lose your edge / the game omg why did you word it like that? thanks for the guide, it sounds interesting. really hate how pvp is all about strict strict timings that boil down to the second >< do you think this build will still be viable after patch 1.4? it seems like you would be forced to either all in, or throw down a nexus instead of a 4th gateway. is all inning even an option with the immortal buff and the heavy stalker count this build has?
Haha well if you don't want those seconds to matter, and normal 4 gate should suffice as there is still a 5-10 second walking distance for your opponents 4 gate This is just a build that is out there if someone wants to walk the line of crisp execution for small advantages, and I just happen to be a person who loves crisp execution :D After patch 1.4, I expect 1 gate robo (my new build that I'm perfecting) to be the new build. The reason why I posted this up was so people could use it for the remainder of the time, else I'd keep it to myself a bit longer and reap the rewards of the build xD
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Seems like a nice BO. Pretty sweet idea to delay the first unit to make another gate.
So basicaly, this is a defensive 4 gate that turns offensive once you realize that he's not 4 gating ? The thing that troubles me is that if your opponent puts his second gas right as he chases your scouting probe, you be heavily behind on gas and tech, and most builds can hold off a late 4 gate. What I like about it is that you're getting a lot of probes.
What I don't like about it is that if your opponent has perfect 5:42 timing with pylons at the bottom of your ramp and decent micro, you lose (30 seconds is a lot of time to wreak havoc in your base).
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Geiko I totally agree. If you do a 12 gate 14 gas with this exact same build but speed things up (especially with the safe variation) I've managed to start my warpin at 6:03, so actually only 21 seconds =) And if he does a perfect 5:42 timing with his pylons, then you must not be pushing the 3 stalkers vs. 1 stalker 1 zealot advantage enough. One of the solutions as I've mentioned is pulling 3 probes (to maintain economically with him) to harass the pylon (if there is one). Now as you've mentioned, the problem is if there are multiple pylons! That would mean he's cutting corners somewhere though and the 5:42 timing won't be as powerful as it should be. By this time, you have 3 stalkers and 2 zealots anyways, so a non-perfect 4 gate will have 1 unit on you. You should be able to buy time (and even lose 2 units), warp in, and be even with him again (except with a probe lead)
To address the fast gas, I'm trying it with a high masters teammate of mine. Currently, I think I'm 7-0. Whenever I find a flaw, I will definitely post about it!
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This is like a 3 stalker rush into 4 gate.
I usually do a 3 stalker into robo tech.
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Really cool guide, I would have never thought that you could transition out of an early 3 stalker opening into a 4gate build. Saro, do you only do this as a defensive build when you suspect your opponent is 4gating you or would you turn on the aggression if he wasn't attacking or teching? Like if you scout double gas and he's CBing out probes early game, you would probably not do this exact build right?
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I don't understand. What if your opponent doesn't 4 gate? On eu server they all have 4 gate proof builds with relatively fast tech. Barely anyone 4 gatesanymore.
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On August 26 2011 16:39 Anomandaris wrote:
I don't understand. What if your opponent doesn't 4 gate? On eu server they all have 4 gate proof builds with relatively fast tech. Barely anyone 4 gatesanymore.
The amount of units you get from this build is so much more then a normal 4gate when saro first did it to me I didn't even expect a 4gate at all so I just do a robo-blink build and then as im warping in my 6th stalker he walks up my ramp with a shit ton of units and just rolls me. The build really just looks like a 3stalker rush with more chrono on the nexus, so that's really misleading in itself. But even if you're expecting the build you have to be really really prepared to hold it.
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On August 26 2011 16:47 serpyderp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 16:39 Anomandaris wrote:
I don't understand. What if your opponent doesn't 4 gate? On eu server they all have 4 gate proof builds with relatively fast tech. Barely anyone 4 gatesanymore. The amount of units you get from this build is so much more then a normal 4gate when saro first did it to me I didn't even expect a 4gate at all so I just do a robo-blink build and then as im warping in my 6th stalker he walks up my ramp with a shit ton of units and just rolls me. The build really just looks like a 3stalker rush with more chrono on the nexus, so that's really misleading in itself. But even if you're expecting the build you have to be really really prepared to hold it.
And what if you have a sentry? he won't be able to get pylons below your ramp, so you will just roll him by cutting his force in half. Getting a quick robo AND council is auto loss vs blink anyay, you shouldn't do that.
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Pretty high level thoughts you've shared with us there - seems like a solid build. I've seen more and more people mess around with a fast 2nd gate in order to get more units out before the first warp-in-cycle. I've seen HwangSin get a zealot first, but still build a "quite" fast-ish 2nd gate and end up with the same composition you have (the delay of the 2nd gate gets compensated if you build a zealot out of it and a stalker out of the other one).
Unfortunately, it seems like with the 1.4 changes, 4 gate will finally be a heavy cheese that relies on your opponent to screw up. Therefore I don't think you need a defensive 4 gate anymore.
Nevertheless I think this build has good potential for Tal Darim.
On August 26 2011 16:34 aznkukuboi wrote:
This is like a 3 stalker rush into 4 gate.
I usually do a 3 stalker into robo tech.
Well, that's - to some extent - the point of this build. Personally, I've used 3 stalker into 4 gate on TalDarim as well, gives me quite some free-wins when my opponent thinks he can just waltz into my base because he expects tech. But this build manages to also get 2 zealots out before the WG tech finishes, which makes it even stronger if you face an offensive 4 gate.
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I do similar build in taldarim and i have 100% winrate in gm eu with that. But i dont think this is quite valid build in other maps since 3gate with faster gas counters this.
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On August 26 2011 16:54 mazqo wrote:
I do similar build in taldarim and i have 100% winrate in gm eu with that. But i dont think this is quite valid build in other maps since 3gate with faster gas counters this.
exactly my toughts
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If I'm understanding the build well, this is basically a variation of the 3-stalkers rush where you don't take your 2nd gas as fast, and use the extra minerals to drop 2 more gates and prepare to warp 4 more stalkers ? That actually sounds.. very nice..
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In the new 1.4 patch I expect this build (and 4gate in general) to become obsolete (as well anti-4gate builds as geiko's 3gate) as the ramp vision decrease from the attacker hurt 4gate badly and with the buff to Immortal and nerf to blink it will become robo-wars.
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United States8476 Posts
Just a few notes
First, I'm going to summarize my understanding of your build. This seems just like a normal 3 stalkers rush with 1 gas that transitions into 4 gate. Kiwikaki used a very similar build a few patches ago. He used 2 less chornoboost on probes, but chornoboosted his stalkers twice. The end result is almost exactly the same. The big difference is that you end up with 1 or 2 more probes and an opponent may think you're being overly greedy. Correct me if I'm wrong and there's actually more differences.
My biggest criticism of your build is that throughout your entire guide, you seem to emphasize your opponent should sense that you cannot hold a 4 gate and then 4 gate to his death. However, I think a smart player will not go for the offensive 4 gate. After all, 2 gas into 3 stalker rush gives you stalkers at the exact same time or faster and that build stops 4 gate. I believe if your opponent does any other standard defensive build or even 1 gate tech, he will be way ahead. Overall, it feels like this build falls behind any non 4 gate and in my opinion has an over-reliance on your opponent being tricked.
Next, because you use 4 chornoboosts on your probes, your opponent can almost with certainty rule out the standard all out 4 gate and thus even attempt to go a fake 4 gate opening but actually go 1 gate robo with a late gas, putting him very ahead.
Finally, because your build is essentially a 3 stalker rush with 1 gas, I believe it is very susceptible to a gas steal. It's even more susceptible than a normal 3 stalker rush, because you don't save chornoboosts for your stalkers. If you don't attempt to kill the gas, you broadcast to your opponent that you're either 4 gating or fast expoing. If you do attempt to kill the gas, you lose your ability to definitively hold a 4 gate or you can get a probe get into your base, scouting all your buildings.
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A naniwa 4 gate will have 7 stalkers and 3/4 zealots at roughly 6:15. I'd be interested in seeing this build hold that off.
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On August 26 2011 16:35 RabidSeagull wrote:
Really cool guide, I would have never thought that you could transition out of an early 3 stalker opening into a 4gate build. Saro, do you only do this as a defensive build when you suspect your opponent is 4gating you or would you turn on the aggression if he wasn't attacking or teching? Like if you scout double gas and he's CBing out probes early game, you would probably not do this exact build right?
To be completely honest I don't actually do this build UNLESS I suspect a 4 gate coming. On a map like tal'darim, I can assure you you will win the majority of your games with this build though. Personally I take my 2nd gas, walk my huge army to his front door. Drop a pylon. Constantly warp in 4 units (first 4 might have to be zealots), then about 90 seconds after have blink + an expo across the map (assuming my poke discovered he had immortals / colossus OR I see an invisible observer floating about) This build leaves you with at LEAST 23 probes (if you do the super safe version of it) Now think of WHY I chose this number (coupled with the fact it lines up perfectly). If you need 6 probes for BOTH gas, you are at 17 probes. If you bring that one probe out to place the proxy pylon, you are at 16 probes. Optimal saturation. That's something this build aims to get, optimal probe saturation AFTER your second gas so you can CONTINUE your warpgate production WHILE teching.
I guarantee you will NOT be impossibly behind in the game if you open up with the 24 probe build and do NOT scout the all-in. Like I said, if people are "faking" a 4 gate, just punish their probe, stalker, and zealot that comes out of their base with 3 stalkers.
A variation that I didn't seem to mention is the fact that IF your opponent is NOT going to 4 gate you, and this is obvious, your 4th AND 5th units SHOULD be stalkers. They will walk to your opponents base FASTER. I didn't think that needed it's own part as people can make variations off of any build they see but if you guys want to take that as the standard response to no aggression, go for it. In the end, the THREAT of a 4 gate sitting on his door step (a STRONGER 4 gate actually) will lead to him NOT greedily snatching up tech, and most likely get 1-2 sentries. Considering your probe counts should be even at BEST, you aren't actually very behind gas-wise.
On August 26 2011 16:39 Anomandaris wrote:
I don't understand. What if your opponent doesn't 4 gate? On eu server they all have 4 gate proof builds with relatively fast tech. Barely anyone 4 gatesanymore.
If you didn't read my previous posts, the reason I kinda decided TODAY was the day to post this, was BECAUSE I read the patch. I personally don't know about the EU server, but out of the 4 games I played yesterday, 2 people did 4 gates, 1 person (rsvp) did a FAKE 4 gate but actually a 3 gate with chrono (I think). He TECHED I believe in the game, got gas a bit early, but was ALSO forced to build a sentry. I won. This isn't with a glaring mistake like a mis-blink or something, this was because you are NOT that far behind (if even behind at all) when you execute this build. He even was on top of the exchange early game, but still lost to me eventually. Considering I'm STILL a high school student who doesn't have my entire day dedicated to starcraft, and managing to bring back a game where I am supposedly "behind" against someone of rsvp's caliber, shows you this build doesn't put you in a game-ending situation if they do not 4 gate you.
Oh, by the way since I remembered you were from EU, Adelscott played on NA servers for some tournament a LONG while back, and I did this build as it was in it's beginning stages (as in the timings weren't crisp yet) and beat him too. Just to show you the standard level at which this build can perform at.
On August 26 2011 22:41 4kmonk wrote:
Just a few notes
First, I'm going to summarize my understanding of your build. This seems just like a normal 3 stalkers rush with 1 gas that transitions into 4 gate. Kiwikaki used a very similar build a few patches ago. He used 2 less chornoboost on probes, but chornoboosted his stalkers twice. The end result is almost exactly the same. The big difference is that you end up with 1 or 2 more probes and an opponent may think you're being overly greedy. Correct me if I'm wrong and there's actually more differences.
My biggest criticism of your build is that throughout your entire guide, you seem to emphasize your opponent should sense that you cannot hold a 4 gate and then 4 gate to his death. However, I think a smart player will not go for the offensive 4 gate. After all, 2 gas into 3 stalker rush gives you stalkers at the exact same time or faster and that build stops 4 gate. I believe if your opponent does any other standard defensive build or even 1 gate tech, he will be way ahead. Overall, it feels like this build falls behind any non 4 gate and in my opinion has an over-reliance on your opponent being tricked.
Next, because you use 4 chornoboosts on your probes, your opponent can almost with certainty rule out the standard all out 4 gate and thus even attempt to go a fake 4 gate opening but actually go 1 gate robo with a late gas, putting him very ahead.
Finally, because your build is essentially a 3 stalker rush with 1 gas, I believe it is very susceptible to a gas steal. It's even more susceptible than a normal 3 stalker rush, because you don't save chornoboosts for your stalkers. If you don't attempt to kill the gas, you broadcast to your opponent that you're either 4 gating or fast expoing. If you do attempt to kill the gas, you lose your ability to definitively hold a 4 gate or you can get a probe get into your base, scouting all your buildings.
To be honest, I have no clue what KiWiKaKi's build is. I can tell you honestly that I'm 1-2 versus him on NA ladder though He was practicing for MLG the morning before I think 3-4 months ago and that's when I started to experiment with this build. That being said, I don't think I'm a better player than him in any means so I guess the score reflects that. My teammate RevSerp (a high master / GM player) and I tested this build about 8 times on Xel'naga Caverns yesterday. The final score was 7-1. The ONE build he managed to beat me with (after using it 3 times) was 1 gate robo. He got his 2nd gas at 19 and MANAGED to have enough. I'm sorry but a stalker doesn't come out NEARLY fast enough to deny my scout of a 19 gas. That will make me take my gas, and choose a different build (at the moment, 3 gate blink stalkers) and I wouldn't be using this build any longer. I actually decided to force the engagement into the immortal + sentry and stalker dotted ramp and still won 3/4 games he did this build.
For your 2nd point, you kinda just hit the nail on the hammer and proved what I said before. When your opponent doesn't see a 4 gate, he WILL 4 gate a LOT of the time. It's very difficult to FAKE a 4 gate 4 chronoboosts into a match don't you think? If anything I think that'll put you even further behind against my build which NEEDS crisp timings to execute. You can't hide anything for 3-4 seconds and chase a scout away. You NEED to be active with your stalkers and chase them away BEFORE they become a problem, as you will have literally 5 seconds of leeway in this build throughout the first 6 minutes.
For your last point, a gas steal is a build that I've NEVER lost to when doing this (pre 1.4 anyways) You don't just have 2 options. My follow up to this:
Same build
Use 4th and 5th zealot to kill the assimilator while 4 gating the front.
2 things will happen:
a) he will think you have less forces because 2 zealots are at your main, then realize after first warp in that there are 7 stalkers in front of their ramp. More stalkers than a regular 4 gate. They will charge out, and die because they are trying to fight DOWN a ramp.
b) he will cut on sentries because you have less forces and think it is a feint at a 4 gate. Funny thing is, it IS a feint at a 4 gate, but higher econ and JUST as scary as a 4 gate. If you poke with your proxy probe and check the energies on the sentries, see only 1 FF, warp 1 zealot at a time up the ramp and place your stalkers below the edge that's closest to his army. Snipe the key units as his sentry will already FF and be useless. You have 4 zealots aka 8 volleys of shots you can do on your opponents units if they do NOT move from the edge. When they MOVE from the edge, wait for FF's to subside (if he builds another sentry send your zealots on top to attack it and either kill it if it forces a FF, or push it away long enough to walk in his base) It's pretty much a standard 4 gate, except you have the economy to get 2nd as without cutting units AND you have MORE stalkers for the volleys on the low ground. If you really want the replay to see this, look at me vs. rsvp. He did a 3 gate AND gas steal. However was forced to pump out sentries and delay his tech because of the fear of my counter 4 gate.
On August 26 2011 23:13 Defeat wrote:
A naniwa 4 gate will have 7 stalkers and 3/4 zealots at roughly 6:15. I'd be interested in seeing this build hold that off.
So you are saying the naniwa build (which I have no clue what it is) will build the first zealot in exchange for sacking improved economy. I hope you do realize that 16 probes on minerals doesn't actually fully support a 4 gate. It supports a 4 gate that LOSES units in fights so you don't need extra pylons EVERY warp in. If you have the same units but 1 less zealot, but you have the choke advantage, I don't see where you are definitively at a loss. It requires micro, yes, but you still have an economic lead by 3-4 probes, whereas your opponents mindset is "kill him or kill probes or I lose", yours is "sit in base with good positioning and wait for your opponent to force himself in your base at a bad angle"
EDIT: For all the people saying this will become obsolete in PvP, certain maps like Tal'darim are still viable, but yes, it will become a LOT less effective. To be honest, I wouldn't have posted this build (much like the PvZ build I'm experimenting with right now) on TL if it would be working for weeks and months to come. Why? I want wins. I don't have as much time as the pros to practice, but I sure as hell can make my timings so crisp that I can make up for that difference. My new PvZ on ladder has brought me a 4-1 win rate (when refined) so far, and I don't think losses to a 6 pool last scout on tal'darim counts as a loss -.-
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good win ratio, good explanation, awesome manner. good one guy!
edit: no, 6 pool doesn't count ^^ now i want your pvz build ;PPPP
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On August 26 2011 16:50 Anomandaris wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 16:47 serpyderp wrote:On August 26 2011 16:39 Anomandaris wrote:
I don't understand. What if your opponent doesn't 4 gate? On eu server they all have 4 gate proof builds with relatively fast tech. Barely anyone 4 gatesanymore. The amount of units you get from this build is so much more then a normal 4gate when saro first did it to me I didn't even expect a 4gate at all so I just do a robo-blink build and then as im warping in my 6th stalker he walks up my ramp with a shit ton of units and just rolls me. The build really just looks like a 3stalker rush with more chrono on the nexus, so that's really misleading in itself. But even if you're expecting the build you have to be really really prepared to hold it. And what if you have a sentry? he won't be able to get pylons below your ramp, so you will just roll him by cutting his force in half. Getting a quick robo AND council is auto loss vs blink anyay, you shouldn't do that.
Why cant they get pylons at your ramp? And who said that? I'm pretty sure HuK does that every game pvp and he doesn't lose to straight blink...what league are you in?
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United States8476 Posts
On August 27 2011 05:10 serpyderp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 16:50 Anomandaris wrote:On August 26 2011 16:47 serpyderp wrote:On August 26 2011 16:39 Anomandaris wrote:
I don't understand. What if your opponent doesn't 4 gate? On eu server they all have 4 gate proof builds with relatively fast tech. Barely anyone 4 gatesanymore. The amount of units you get from this build is so much more then a normal 4gate when saro first did it to me I didn't even expect a 4gate at all so I just do a robo-blink build and then as im warping in my 6th stalker he walks up my ramp with a shit ton of units and just rolls me. The build really just looks like a 3stalker rush with more chrono on the nexus, so that's really misleading in itself. But even if you're expecting the build you have to be really really prepared to hold it. And what if you have a sentry? he won't be able to get pylons below your ramp, so you will just roll him by cutting his force in half. Getting a quick robo AND council is auto loss vs blink anyay, you shouldn't do that. Why cant they get pylons at your ramp? And who said that? I'm pretty sure HuK does that every game pvp and he doesn't lose to straight blink...what league are you in?
Anomandaris is right. Straight robo + twilight is autoloss vs blink all. All of Huk's recent games involve him going very greedy while his opponents play safe and don't allin him. For more information on this, check my robo twilight guide in my profile.
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On August 26 2011 23:13 Defeat wrote:
A naniwa 4 gate will have 7 stalkers and 3/4 zealots at roughly 6:15. I'd be interested in seeing this build hold that off.
Do you have a replay or written build order for a Naniwa 4-gate? I'd like to see it if you do, please.
OP: This looks like a pretty solid option.. Thanks for the post.
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26 Build two stalkers out of your gateways, they should line up almost perfectly.
28 Build 2 more gateways
This doesn't line up in supply. is it 30 build 2 more gateways, or do gateways fall between 2 stalkers?
edit: These timings seem to line up better in my tests in game and sc2calc.
9 pylon
10 probe*
12 gateway
12 scout
12 probe*
14 assimilator > transfer 3
17 pylon
17 cybernetics core
19 gateway
19 warpgate***
19 stalker
23 pylon
24 stalker [2]
30 gateway [2]
30 zealot [2]
34 pylon [2]
34 transform to warpgate [4]
34 stalker [4]
I've never experienced having to wait to 18 (vs 17) for cyber or till after warpgate to start 2nd gate in my games. Are you using a 3rd chrono boost on probes before cyber that I'm not? (I'm also scouting on 12 here after gateway, which is different than your stated post)
I'm NOT GM so please advise as how yours work better. I'd like to understand what I'm missing.
edit 2: I guess 9 scout 17 cyber cuts a probe for a few seconds. this is probably why the difference cropped up.
watched replay, i do see you get the gateway before warpgate and squeeze in more probes. that's the point of this post I guess, maximum probes while keeping up with 4 gate timing. I'll practice it,
Thanks!
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Iv been using this today, with very good results, thnx I think it will be my standard opening now.
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Yeah, I used this today on ladder, with the result of being now top 1 Diamond instead of top 15 (about 20 games) Thank You so much for this guide. I was also not familiar with the crisp timing of 3 stalkers opening (that these 2 gates syncs perfectly). I am now using it against terran as well, with outstanding result against 2 marauder and scv pressure Thank You once again!
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On August 28 2011 00:18 quillian wrote:Show nested quote +26 Build two stalkers out of your gateways, they should line up almost perfectly.
28 Build 2 more gateways This doesn't line up in supply. is it 30 build 2 more gateways, or do gateways fall between 2 stalkers? edit: These timings seem to line up better in my tests in game and sc2calc. 9 pylon 10 probe* 12 gateway 12 scout 12 probe* 14 assimilator > transfer 3 17 pylon 17 cybernetics core 19 gateway 19 warpgate*** 19 stalker 23 pylon 24 stalker [2] 30 gateway [2] 30 zealot [2] 34 pylon [2] 34 transform to warpgate [4] 34 stalker [4] I've never experienced having to wait to 18 (vs 17) for cyber or till after warpgate to start 2nd gate in my games. Are you using a 3rd chrono boost on probes before cyber that I'm not? (I'm also scouting on 12 here after gateway, which is different than your stated post) I'm NOT GM so please advise as how yours work better. I'd like to understand what I'm missing. edit 2: I guess 9 scout 17 cyber cuts a probe for a few seconds. this is probably why the difference cropped up. watched replay, i do see you get the gateway before warpgate and squeeze in more probes. that's the point of this post I guess, maximum probes while keeping up with 4 gate timing. I'll practice it, Thanks!
Ah I DID seem to fudge up the build, my apologies. The replay I was watching while getting the supply down was a variation where I SHOULD'VE been at 29 supply because I did the safer variation, BUT my scout probe died ( ew ) so my supply went down to 28. Thanks for clarifying that for me I changed it in my opening post! And yeah like I said, it's up to personal preference. I found these timings to work better for my style (as I do NOT like to lose to 2 gate, proxy 2 gate, or cannon rushes), but as I said it's completely up to you! Regardless of if you aren't a GM level player, you can still steer a little away from a build and make it your own and comforting I just wanted my build up here so people could see a crisp timing build that gets you a small advantage in the general PvP 4 gate madness that happens on maps like Tal'darim Alter.
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Thanks for the reply and clarifying!
Yeah it looks like you were starting stalkers on 22-23. and both gateways before 30 usually.
Thank You so much for this guide. I was also not familiar with the crisp timing of 3 stalkers opening (that these 2 gates syncs perfectly)
Seconded! I really like how well everything lines up, that you can get 5 units out just in time for a fast WG. I will be adding this to my rotation!
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your Country52797 Posts
On August 26 2011 15:57 serpyderp wrote:
IT CAN BE BEATEN
Duh.
Very nice guide, I'll be looking into it.
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oh yeah, have you ever tried slipping in a zealot while cyber is building like traditional 4 gate? how wildly does this throw your build off?
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On August 29 2011 01:39 quillian wrote:
oh yeah, have you ever tried slipping in a zealot while cyber is building like traditional 4 gate? how wildly does this throw your build off?
I have never tried to do this, nor do I think it would work  Right now you are BARELY squeezing out minerals for the pylons to not get supply blocked, and BARELY squeezing the units out when they need to be built. My guess is you could make the first few minutes of this build work by cutting 2 probes in favour of the zealot, but eventually those 2 probes will haunt you and you won't have enough resources to build the 3rd and 4th gate for example AND keep the timing that this warpgate hits.
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Great post Saro. I remember seeing you own Serp with this haha.
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Didn't CombatEx do a PvP 4gate on one of his VODs? I don't like CombatEx but the one he showed seemed very precise and clean.. What is the difference between the one he does and the one you do?
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On August 29 2011 03:20 Kornholi0 wrote:
Didn't CombatEx do a PvP 4gate on one of his VODs? I don't like CombatEx but the one he showed seemed very precise and clean.. What is the difference between the one he does and the one you do?
.....why not look at the build and figure it out yourself? it's clearly written out...you're basically asking people to feed you food that they made for you....quit being so lazy..
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On August 29 2011 03:20 Kornholi0 wrote:
Didn't CombatEx do a PvP 4gate on one of his VODs? I don't like CombatEx but the one he showed seemed very precise and clean.. What is the difference between the one he does and the one you do?
First off, I wouldn't know where, when or what CombatEX's 4 gate PvP is.
Secondly, just cause he does a precise and clean 4 gate doesn't mean it's anywhere close to the same as my build lol. I can pull off a clean, precise, 1 gate -> 4 gate timing that is just a standard 4gate. So yeah unless you have a link to the thread / video where CombatEX did "his" 4 gate I wouldn't be able to comment on that
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I've been trying this and although it's okay, what do you do when your opponent decides to grab his 2nd gas and turtle in his base with sentries?
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On August 29 2011 12:59 NineteenSC2 wrote:
I've been trying this and although it's okay, what do you do when your opponent decides to grab his 2nd gas and turtle in his base with sentries?
First off, I really only suggest to do this build on Tal'darim or if you KNOW your opponent will 4 gate. There are countless 3 stalker pressure builds out there that I suggest you learn so you can take your own 2nd gas and continue.
If you REALLY want to use my build all the way through, you will most likely lose. This is the truth. If your SCOUT probe can SEE a 2nd gas being thrown down before the first stalker is out to kill it, there is a severe problem if you continue using this, unless you want to 4 gate him anyways. I personally take my 2nd gas, and I'm usually AHEAD in economy (albeit behind in 12-16 gas) because the first 4-5 chronoboosts are ALL dedicated to PROBES. Every "safe" 4 gate build that takes a 2nd gas tells you to SAVE at least 1 chrono boost for warp gate. Most of them tell you to save 2. You will not only have a probe advantage, but FULL map control. Poke with 3 stalkers, pressure him. It will make sure your opponent won't cut ANY corners, and thus allow you to get further ahead if you get a tad greedy here and there.
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I just think you won this because you had so much better macro. But thanks on guide.
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On August 29 2011 13:25 ReiKo wrote:
I just think you won this because you had so much better macro. But thanks on guide.
Doesn't macro entail.... sharp unit producing TIMINGS and spending your money just as you get it? That's kinda what build orders are... to set up your macro game. I think that the "macro" aspect to this build is the one reason why it might have a slight edge over a raw 4 gate with no timings, just chrono warpgate and make extra gateways.
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Interesting build, but if the new patch goes through, I suggest most/all of you start coming up/getting used to doing a different build because I think 4 gate is potentially dead. But as of right now, it's a really cool build. Another cool alternative come up with a non-pro that is viable. I really like reading the strategy section sometimes. People come up with really interesting ways to do things.
Not sure if this has been asked though....is there a way to squeeze in a first Zealot or do you strictly limit this to pure Stalker at the start?
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On August 29 2011 13:52 ma70 wrote:
Interesting build, but if the new patch goes through, I suggest most/all of you start coming up/getting used to doing a different build because I think 4 gate is potentially dead. But as of right now, it's a really cool build. Another cool alternative come up with a non-pro that is viable. I really like reading the strategy section sometimes. People come up with really interesting ways to do things.
Not sure if this has been asked though....is there a way to squeeze in a first Zealot or do you strictly limit this to pure Stalker at the start?
Yeah like I've said previously, one of the main motivating things that made me post this was BECAUSE I heard of the patch notes. If my build won't be as effective as before, might as well post it now right?
And yeah that question has already been asked, you'd have to sacrifice 2 probes early to sneak that zealot in. Unfortunately, cutting 2 probes relatively early in the build (about 19 supply) will render the rest of the build USELESS. This is because the rest of the build BARELY has enough resources as it is to work. Cutting 2 harvesters isn't ideal.
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I don't play protoss but thoroughly enjoyed reading your guide and the nuances of the matchup / four gate. Well written and cool stuff.
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On August 29 2011 13:57 SaroVati wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 13:52 ma70 wrote:
Interesting build, but if the new patch goes through, I suggest most/all of you start coming up/getting used to doing a different build because I think 4 gate is potentially dead. But as of right now, it's a really cool build. Another cool alternative come up with a non-pro that is viable. I really like reading the strategy section sometimes. People come up with really interesting ways to do things.
Not sure if this has been asked though....is there a way to squeeze in a first Zealot or do you strictly limit this to pure Stalker at the start? Yeah like I've said previously, one of the main motivating things that made me post this was BECAUSE I heard of the patch notes. If my build won't be as effective as before, might as well post it now right? And yeah that question has already been asked, you'd have to sacrifice 2 probes early to sneak that zealot in. Unfortunately, cutting 2 probes relatively early in the build (about 19 supply) will render the rest of the build USELESS. This is because the rest of the build BARELY has enough resources as it is to work. Cutting 2 harvesters isn't ideal.
Yeah, I figured something like this. getting rid of the Probe "advantage" totally messes with the idea of the build. For awhile I had a build VERY similar to this but I hadn't worked out the timings exactly, then what a surprise, I see a build that did it for me, haha. Unfortunately 4G seems to be dying. I enjoyed the guide though. :D
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I dont think a defensive 4 gate is much to be praised nowaday's
there are ways to hold the 4 gate with less then 4 gateways...
Not to mention that 4 gate will be relatively dead once patch 1.4 hits
Also, how do you deal with getting your gas stolen?
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This build seems good but its flawed if they take your gas and go fast blink stalkers you will be in a lot of trouble on maps like taldarim.
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It looks interesting, definitely going to try that out. I hate pvp recently because of the 4gates all the time and this looks like a decent answer to that lol. Usually I've been relying on sentries to hold XD
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I've a question. It seems to me like this build is set up to "blindly" counter 4-gates (I type blindly because in some cases your 2nd gate will be placed prior to you scouting the opponents main). So what happens if the other guy went e.g. 3gate blink or 3gate robo? You spending 150 extra mineral on a gateway that you didnt really need could put him ahead, no?
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On August 29 2011 04:10 SaroVati wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 03:20 Kornholi0 wrote:
Didn't CombatEx do a PvP 4gate on one of his VODs? I don't like CombatEx but the one he showed seemed very precise and clean.. What is the difference between the one he does and the one you do? First off, I wouldn't know where, when or what CombatEX's 4 gate PvP is. Secondly, just cause he does a precise and clean 4 gate doesn't mean it's anywhere close to the same as my build lol. I can pull off a clean, precise, 1 gate -> 4 gate timing that is just a standard 4gate. So yeah unless you have a link to the thread / video where CombatEX did "his" 4 gate I wouldn't be able to comment on that
http://www.youtube.com/user/Wasif1112#p/u/1/XVI1NEEfX7s
Well here you go..
To the other person, I don't play protoss at all. I was just curious how his 4gate compares to "other" 4gates what the difference is, and why one is better than the other.
Its merely speculation and for the educated togetherness of the SCII community as me being zerg face the common 4gate as well :|
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I wonder if it's also a viable build in PvT and PvZ...the old four gate was powerful then, why not a more powerful version now?
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On August 29 2011 16:39 Checkm8 wrote:
I wonder if it's also a viable build in PvT and PvZ...the old four gate was powerful then, why not a more powerful version now?
For PvZ, The immediate issue I see is the skipping of the first zealot. If they go for early lings your kinda crippled and wont be able to carry it out properly.
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That's kinda what build orders are... to set up your macro game.
God that was sublime. That's exactly what build orders are for. Set up your macro game.
Set it up with options with responses, no instant deaths
YOU the player steps in and macro games.
Very poetic. Gonna use this PvP TalDarim =)
Chrono boosts on probes begs the 4gate so many times anyways =)
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I really love that build. And unlike what others are saying here, I believe it has tons of potential, even after the upcoming patch. It's not only safe vs a 4 gate, it's also got a strong eco and allows you to quickly transition to teching if you scout that your opponent takes his 2nd gas, and you're not far behind ! Think about it, you have your scouting probe in his base and he can't get ride of it until he has a stalker. That means either he takes his 2nd gas and you take yours immediately ( you're in no way delayed and have a stronger eco since you chronoed your probes so much ); either he waits that your probe is out to take is 2nd gas, but then you'll poke with your 3 stalkers and since he cannot be guaranteed that you won't rush him, he'll have to play defensively, warping a sentry. In that case, as soon as you're sure he's not 4-gating you, you can take your 2nd gas, and you won't be that far behind as you won't have a sentry..
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On August 29 2011 14:50 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
I dont think a defensive 4 gate is much to be praised nowaday's
there are ways to hold the 4 gate with less then 4 gateways...
Not to mention that 4 gate will be relatively dead once patch 1.4 hits
Also, how do you deal with getting your gas stolen?
Like I've stated probably 4 times , this build most likely will die out on maps with ramps when patch 1.4 hits. If my gas gets stolen, I usually 4 gate my opponent, or do a 2 gate expo -> 4 gate defend (yes, 4 gate. If you save your chronoboost, you can actually get more units out of your 4 gate than a 5 gate, and usually defend against certain timings meant to break you)
On August 29 2011 15:22 Hister wrote:
This build seems good but its flawed if they take your gas and go fast blink stalkers you will be in a lot of trouble on maps like taldarim.
I'm sorry, but find ANYONE, I dare you to even find oGsMC, tell him to GAS steal me on Tal'darim and then rush blink. I will confidently say he will NOT win the game lol. Those are the PERFECT options for this build to absolutely crush a PvP.
On August 29 2011 15:39 Thraundil wrote:
I've a question. It seems to me like this build is set up to "blindly" counter 4-gates (I type blindly because in some cases your 2nd gate will be placed prior to you scouting the opponents main). So what happens if the other guy went e.g. 3gate blink or 3gate robo? You spending 150 extra mineral on a gateway that you didnt really need could put him ahead, no?
Well, I usually 9 scout so a high percentage of my games I always scout his base first, but you can't confidently go 3 gate robo or 3 gate blink WITHOUT an early gas. If I see that, I usually take my 2nd gas as well. Secondly, 3 gate blink and 3 gate robo cut probes at 20 / 22 anyways, so you will still have an advantage. Hell, if you went 3 gate blink or 3 gate robo AFTER you saw his build you wouldn't be in a game-ending disadvantage.
On August 29 2011 16:03 Kornholi0 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 04:10 SaroVati wrote:On August 29 2011 03:20 Kornholi0 wrote:
Didn't CombatEx do a PvP 4gate on one of his VODs? I don't like CombatEx but the one he showed seemed very precise and clean.. What is the difference between the one he does and the one you do? First off, I wouldn't know where, when or what CombatEX's 4 gate PvP is. Secondly, just cause he does a precise and clean 4 gate doesn't mean it's anywhere close to the same as my build lol. I can pull off a clean, precise, 1 gate -> 4 gate timing that is just a standard 4gate. So yeah unless you have a link to the thread / video where CombatEX did "his" 4 gate I wouldn't be able to comment on that http://www.youtube.com/user/Wasif1112#p/u/1/XVI1NEEfX7sWell here you go.. To the other person, I don't play protoss at all. I was just curious how his 4gate compares to "other" 4gates what the difference is, and why one is better than the other. Its merely speculation and for the educated togetherness of the SCII community as me being zerg face the common 4gate as well :|
Lol this 4 gate is a standard 4 gate. The difference between his "very precise and clean" 4 gate and mine is completely different.
a) my plat friends could pull a 4 gate almost identically to this.
b) there are 0 timings associated with this build outside of when to build the gateways.
When he selected his probes, I counted exactly 16 on mineral patches, and 3 on gas, with 1 scouting probe. That is a STANDARD 20 probe 4 gate. That is what this build intends to destroy, and if he stays back for his 2nd wave as CombatEX says is SOOOOO important, that will give his build 0 advantages over mine, and he will get his world rocked.
The real difference is this 4 gate hits about 15-20 seconds after a standard 4 gate. The other difference is that there is more map presence early on, you counter 3 gate stalker openings, and have MORE economy than a standard 4 gate, WHILE having 7 stalkers and 2 zealots, rather than 6 stalkers and 1 zealot.
On August 29 2011 17:50 Danglars wrote:God that was sublime. That's exactly what build orders are for. Set up your macro game. Set it up with options with responses, no instant deaths YOU the player steps in and macro games. Very poetic. Gonna use this PvP TalDarim =) Chrono boosts on probes begs the 4gate so many times anyways =)
Hehe yeah that's what I've been trying to emphasize, this build doesn't leave you cramped (because of the strong economy), but at the same time doesn't allow for a loss against a 4 gate all in (in fact handles it very nicely)
And again, people tell me that NO ONE will 4 gate you anymore. Tal'darim + 4 chronoboosts on probes without a first zealot? That BEGS a 4 gate lol Thanks for the support
On August 29 2011 18:05 Nyast wrote:
I really love that build. And unlike what others are saying here, I believe it has tons of potential, even after the upcoming patch. It's not only safe vs a 4 gate, it's also got a strong eco and allows you to quickly transition to teching if you scout that your opponent takes his 2nd gas, and you're not far behind ! Think about it, you have your scouting probe in his base and he can't get ride of it until he has a stalker. That means either he takes his 2nd gas and you take yours immediately ( you're in no way delayed and have a stronger eco since you chronoed your probes so much ); either he waits that your probe is out to take is 2nd gas, but then you'll poke with your 3 stalkers and since he cannot be guaranteed that you won't rush him, he'll have to play defensively, warping a sentry. In that case, as soon as you're sure he's not 4-gating you, you can take your 2nd gas, and you won't be that far behind as you won't have a sentry..
Hehe thank you for summing up what I've been saying in stray posts here and there to respond to people. This build is NOT something you follow when your opponent takes his fast 2nd gas. You take yours in response and actually progress through the volatile early game on even footing. Thanks for the support
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On August 29 2011 16:03 Kornholi0 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/user/Wasif1112#p/u/1/XVI1NEEfX7sWell here you go.. To the other person, I don't play protoss at all. I was just curious how his 4gate compares to "other" 4gates what the difference is, and why one is better than the other. Its merely speculation and for the educated togetherness of the SCII community as me being zerg face the common 4gate as well :|
Lol this 4 gate is a standard 4 gate. The difference between his "very precise and clean" 4 gate and mine is completely different.
a) my plat friends could pull a 4 gate almost identically to this.
b) there are 0 timings associated with this build outside of when to build the gateways.
When he selected his probes, I counted exactly 16 on mineral patches, and 3 on gas, with 1 scouting probe. That is a STANDARD 20 probe 4 gate. That is what this build intends to destroy, and if he stays back for his 2nd wave as CombatEX says is SOOOOO important, that will give his build 0 advantages over mine, and he will get his world rocked.
The real difference is this 4 gate hits about 15-20 seconds after a standard 4 gate. The other difference is that there is more map presence early on, you counter 3 gate stalker openings, and have MORE economy than a standard 4 gate, WHILE having 7 stalkers and 2 zealots, rather than 6 stalkers and 1 zealot.
[/QUOTE]
So you are saying that you could beat CombatEx in a PvP because your build > then his build. (Aside from any macro/afterthefact differences).
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On August 30 2011 03:33 Kornholi0 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 16:03 Kornholi0 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/user/Wasif1112#p/u/1/XVI1NEEfX7sWell here you go.. To the other person, I don't play protoss at all. I was just curious how his 4gate compares to "other" 4gates what the difference is, and why one is better than the other. Its merely speculation and for the educated togetherness of the SCII community as me being zerg face the common 4gate as well :| Lol this 4 gate is a standard 4 gate. The difference between his "very precise and clean" 4 gate and mine is completely different. a) my plat friends could pull a 4 gate almost identically to this. b) there are 0 timings associated with this build outside of when to build the gateways. When he selected his probes, I counted exactly 16 on mineral patches, and 3 on gas, with 1 scouting probe. That is a STANDARD 20 probe 4 gate. That is what this build intends to destroy, and if he stays back for his 2nd wave as CombatEX says is SOOOOO important, that will give his build 0 advantages over mine, and he will get his world rocked. The real difference is this 4 gate hits about 15-20 seconds after a standard 4 gate. The other difference is that there is more map presence early on, you counter 3 gate stalker openings, and have MORE economy than a standard 4 gate, WHILE having 7 stalkers and 2 zealots, rather than 6 stalkers and 1 zealot. So you are saying that you could beat CombatEx in a PvP because your build > then his build. (Aside from any macro/afterthefact differences).
I've beaten both CombatEX and RatZDeezer multiple times on ladder, regardless of if they 4 gate, proxy 2 gate, cannon rush, or anything else. In fact if you ask him yourself, they both will tell you they have 0 replays of them BEATING me on ladder (or in tournaments too). The PvP build he showed on that SPECIFIC video would hit all the WRONG timings against mine. The vulnerability is the first warp in, which he doesn't hit. He waits for the 2nd warp in, which not only allows me to surpass him in army value, but also get an even LARGER lead from the extra time with 4 extra probes.
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Been doing this build lately, I really like it. Thanks for this Saro, working vs 1700+ masters players on NA. I have no doubt in its ability to work at higher levels as well. I threw in a gas steal on cross positions to further force the 4gate... what are your thoughts on this Saro ?
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On August 31 2011 08:39 Vlare wrote:
Been doing this build lately, I really like it. Thanks for this Saro, working vs 1700+ masters players on NA. I have no doubt in its ability to work at higher levels as well. I threw in a gas steal on cross positions to further force the 4gate... what are your thoughts on this Saro ?
No problem Hm I had a little experiment / variation I was doing a while back, but threw it out the window when I decided it didn't work TOO well. If I saw only 1 chrono boost saved up by the time my core finished, I would gas steal him instantly. If I saw 50+ energy saved up, I would hesitate on it and do it 50/50 depending on what I thought might happen. If I saw 75+ saved up I would just go with the build because he's 90% going to do a 4 gate, and if not you will be 3 probes ahead.
The only REAL way other than the reads above of executing a gas steal AND keeping the timings relatively the same is to cut probes down to 20/21. Since you know for sure your opponent is going to 4 gate, I guess it shouldn't be too bad if you want a micro battle, but you REALLY have to be active with your first 3 stalkers + 2 zealots OR 5 stalkers (you can make the 4th and 5th units STALKERS because your 3rd and 4th gate will be delayed slightly for warpgate tech anyways because of the probe cut)
Again, it's your call, my build isn't set in stone My recommendation is if you feel you can use your starting 3 stalkers very effectively and feel comfortable and patient enough to wait it out, go for it! Like you stated though, I would only suggest it on cross positions, and most preferably Shattered, Abyssal, or TDA cross position anyways. Great to know it's working for you though and I'm honored to have people try adding new ideas onto the build
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On August 31 2011 12:04 SaroVati wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 08:39 Vlare wrote:
Been doing this build lately, I really like it. Thanks for this Saro, working vs 1700+ masters players on NA. I have no doubt in its ability to work at higher levels as well. I threw in a gas steal on cross positions to further force the 4gate... what are your thoughts on this Saro ? No problem Hm I had a little experiment / variation I was doing a while back, but threw it out the window when I decided it didn't work TOO well. If I saw only 1 chrono boost saved up by the time my core finished, I would gas steal him instantly. If I saw 50+ energy saved up, I would hesitate on it and do it 50/50 depending on what I thought might happen. If I saw 75+ saved up I would just go with the build because he's 90% going to do a 4 gate, and if not you will be 3 probes ahead. The only REAL way other than the reads above of executing a gas steal AND keeping the timings relatively the same is to cut probes down to 20/21. Since you know for sure your opponent is going to 4 gate, I guess it shouldn't be too bad if you want a micro battle, but you REALLY have to be active with your first 3 stalkers + 2 zealots OR 5 stalkers (you can make the 4th and 5th units STALKERS because your 3rd and 4th gate will be delayed slightly for warpgate tech anyways because of the probe cut) Again, it's your call, my build isn't set in stone My recommendation is if you feel you can use your starting 3 stalkers very effectively and feel comfortable and patient enough to wait it out, go for it! Like you stated though, I would only suggest it on cross positions, and most preferably Shattered, Abyssal, or TDA cross position anyways. Great to know it's working for you though and I'm honored to have people try adding new ideas onto the build
Yes I agree with you, about having to cut the probes. What I really like is how they push you because of the delayed stalker, and then are surprised with 3 stalkers, against some players I am simply able to snipe the probe/pylon, pull back to my ramp and greet them with 2 zealots+ my stalkers and be in a very great position.
Really appreciate your opener my friend, keep it up
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On August 31 2011 12:51 Vlare wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 12:04 SaroVati wrote:On August 31 2011 08:39 Vlare wrote:
Been doing this build lately, I really like it. Thanks for this Saro, working vs 1700+ masters players on NA. I have no doubt in its ability to work at higher levels as well. I threw in a gas steal on cross positions to further force the 4gate... what are your thoughts on this Saro ? No problem Hm I had a little experiment / variation I was doing a while back, but threw it out the window when I decided it didn't work TOO well. If I saw only 1 chrono boost saved up by the time my core finished, I would gas steal him instantly. If I saw 50+ energy saved up, I would hesitate on it and do it 50/50 depending on what I thought might happen. If I saw 75+ saved up I would just go with the build because he's 90% going to do a 4 gate, and if not you will be 3 probes ahead. The only REAL way other than the reads above of executing a gas steal AND keeping the timings relatively the same is to cut probes down to 20/21. Since you know for sure your opponent is going to 4 gate, I guess it shouldn't be too bad if you want a micro battle, but you REALLY have to be active with your first 3 stalkers + 2 zealots OR 5 stalkers (you can make the 4th and 5th units STALKERS because your 3rd and 4th gate will be delayed slightly for warpgate tech anyways because of the probe cut) Again, it's your call, my build isn't set in stone My recommendation is if you feel you can use your starting 3 stalkers very effectively and feel comfortable and patient enough to wait it out, go for it! Like you stated though, I would only suggest it on cross positions, and most preferably Shattered, Abyssal, or TDA cross position anyways. Great to know it's working for you though and I'm honored to have people try adding new ideas onto the build Yes I agree with you, about having to cut the probes. What I really like is how they push you because of the delayed stalker, and then are surprised with 3 stalkers, against some players I am simply able to snipe the probe/pylon, pull back to my ramp and greet them with 2 zealots+ my stalkers and be in a very great position. Really appreciate your opener my friend, keep it up
yeah for sure that is what I tried to get my timings based around. This build really rewards players who can keep the sharp timings in check while being active with the units they acquire early game. Like I said earlier, if everything is controlled very nicely, this build should be a near auto-win vs. standard 4 gates on maps like Tal'darim Alter. Glad you are finding the timings so smooth too
If time passes and my PvZ starts getting figured out, I'll post it too. It's a great mix up to throw a zerg off especially in tournament play aka BO3 or BO5's etc. If it gets popular, it'd actually make the PvZ matchup on certain maps easier as a whole as zergs would be basing new timings around the strong push I make :D
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Why do you people want to still 4gate? maybe learn to play blinkstalkerz/colo games. This build is only valid for defense, not offense. So, fast tech builds are so much ahead. And you cant do anything against gas steal.
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If you see your opponent fast-techs, you can:
1. Gas steal him
2. Take your 2nd gas as fast as him and hard tech too
3. 4-gate him ( the timings are slower than an agressive 4 gate, but on the other hand it's also stronger since you have more eco )
Against a gas steal, you can still 4-gate him, as his build will be slightly delayed. Or just kill the assimilator and take your 2nd gas, you won't be that far behind.
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On August 31 2011 16:07 mazqo wrote:
Why do you people want to still 4gate? maybe learn to play blinkstalkerz/colo games. This build is only valid for defense, not offense. So, fast tech builds are so much ahead. And you cant do anything against gas steal.
Lol not to be cheeky or anything, but I would probably give you a good bet my blink stalker play is stronger than yours It's my main PvP strategy. I never said this was my main strategy all the time, and I definitely also encourage other styles of play, however having a strong 4gate is absolutely ESSENTIAL for playing protoss, so I don't know why people aren't allowed to learn this build.
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So I've played a fair number of games with that build, and while I still like it, I found that it's indeed very risky if you get gas-stolen.
It takes ages for your 3 stalkers to kill the assimilator and if you wait for the 2 zealots to kill it, and he's taken a fast gas, you're far behind in tech.
This leaves you with no choice other than 4-gating him. Problem is: good players can hold a 4-gate especially as the warp is slightly delayed, since you're spending your chronos into probes. The attack can't really start before 6', which is too late versus good protoss, who will just temporize with sentries until their immortal is done. After that, you're severely behind..
I get gas-stolen an insane amount of times with that build, far more than usual. Of course that's logical: with their scouting probe they see you're spending a ton of chronos on the nexus, so they suspect you'll be teching, so they take your gas.
So the only real solution to a gas steal seems to be 4 gating agressively, which is exactly what your opponent is expecting  Or to take a fast 2nd gas, which kindda disturbs the build.
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Any chance of re-uploading the replays?
I think replayfu went down
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Replays are broken.
Great post btw! Could you upload a replay of what you do when your opponent isn't 4 gating, and possibly decides on blink stalkers or 3 gate robo?
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On September 09 2011 23:06 Nyast wrote:So I've played a fair number of games with that build, and while I still like it, I found that it's indeed very risky if you get gas-stolen. It takes ages for your 3 stalkers to kill the assimilator and if you wait for the 2 zealots to kill it, and he's taken a fast gas, you're far behind in tech. This leaves you with no choice other than 4-gating him. Problem is: good players can hold a 4-gate especially as the warp is slightly delayed, since you're spending your chronos into probes. The attack can't really start before 6', which is too late versus good protoss, who will just temporize with sentries until their immortal is done. After that, you're severely behind.. I get gas-stolen an insane amount of times with that build, far more than usual. Of course that's logical: with their scouting probe they see you're spending a ton of chronos on the nexus, so they suspect you'll be teching, so they take your gas. So the only real solution to a gas steal seems to be 4 gating agressively, which is exactly what your opponent is expecting Or to take a fast 2nd gas, which kindda disturbs the build.
I've had this same problem. Its generally a good idea for you to gas steal when using this build. This way you're basically daring them to 4gate you, and in my experience(High diamond) they generally oblige.
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I just watched Sarovati do this build vs Tyler on Tyler's stream. Tyler didn't really seem to have a good answer to it, good to know it's still viable.
(For those interested, here's the link to the VOD, game starts around an hour in: http://www.twitch.tv/liquidtyler/b/298459196 )
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EPT
