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On August 30 2011 03:33 Kornholi0 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 16:03 Kornholi0 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/user/Wasif1112#p/u/1/XVI1NEEfX7sWell here you go.. To the other person, I don't play protoss at all. I was just curious how his 4gate compares to "other" 4gates what the difference is, and why one is better than the other. Its merely speculation and for the educated togetherness of the SCII community as me being zerg face the common 4gate as well :| Lol this 4 gate is a standard 4 gate. The difference between his "very precise and clean" 4 gate and mine is completely different. a) my plat friends could pull a 4 gate almost identically to this. b) there are 0 timings associated with this build outside of when to build the gateways. When he selected his probes, I counted exactly 16 on mineral patches, and 3 on gas, with 1 scouting probe. That is a STANDARD 20 probe 4 gate. That is what this build intends to destroy, and if he stays back for his 2nd wave as CombatEX says is SOOOOO important, that will give his build 0 advantages over mine, and he will get his world rocked. The real difference is this 4 gate hits about 15-20 seconds after a standard 4 gate. The other difference is that there is more map presence early on, you counter 3 gate stalker openings, and have MORE economy than a standard 4 gate, WHILE having 7 stalkers and 2 zealots, rather than 6 stalkers and 1 zealot. So you are saying that you could beat CombatEx in a PvP because your build > then his build. (Aside from any macro/afterthefact differences).
I've beaten both CombatEX and RatZDeezer multiple times on ladder, regardless of if they 4 gate, proxy 2 gate, cannon rush, or anything else. In fact if you ask him yourself, they both will tell you they have 0 replays of them BEATING me on ladder (or in tournaments too). The PvP build he showed on that SPECIFIC video would hit all the WRONG timings against mine. The vulnerability is the first warp in, which he doesn't hit. He waits for the 2nd warp in, which not only allows me to surpass him in army value, but also get an even LARGER lead from the extra time with 4 extra probes.
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Been doing this build lately, I really like it. Thanks for this Saro, working vs 1700+ masters players on NA. I have no doubt in its ability to work at higher levels as well. I threw in a gas steal on cross positions to further force the 4gate... what are your thoughts on this Saro ?
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On August 31 2011 08:39 Vlare wrote: Been doing this build lately, I really like it. Thanks for this Saro, working vs 1700+ masters players on NA. I have no doubt in its ability to work at higher levels as well. I threw in a gas steal on cross positions to further force the 4gate... what are your thoughts on this Saro ?
No problem Hm I had a little experiment / variation I was doing a while back, but threw it out the window when I decided it didn't work TOO well. If I saw only 1 chrono boost saved up by the time my core finished, I would gas steal him instantly. If I saw 50+ energy saved up, I would hesitate on it and do it 50/50 depending on what I thought might happen. If I saw 75+ saved up I would just go with the build because he's 90% going to do a 4 gate, and if not you will be 3 probes ahead.
The only REAL way other than the reads above of executing a gas steal AND keeping the timings relatively the same is to cut probes down to 20/21. Since you know for sure your opponent is going to 4 gate, I guess it shouldn't be too bad if you want a micro battle, but you REALLY have to be active with your first 3 stalkers + 2 zealots OR 5 stalkers (you can make the 4th and 5th units STALKERS because your 3rd and 4th gate will be delayed slightly for warpgate tech anyways because of the probe cut)
Again, it's your call, my build isn't set in stone My recommendation is if you feel you can use your starting 3 stalkers very effectively and feel comfortable and patient enough to wait it out, go for it! Like you stated though, I would only suggest it on cross positions, and most preferably Shattered, Abyssal, or TDA cross position anyways. Great to know it's working for you though and I'm honored to have people try adding new ideas onto the build
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On August 31 2011 12:04 SaroVati wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 08:39 Vlare wrote: Been doing this build lately, I really like it. Thanks for this Saro, working vs 1700+ masters players on NA. I have no doubt in its ability to work at higher levels as well. I threw in a gas steal on cross positions to further force the 4gate... what are your thoughts on this Saro ? No problem  Hm I had a little experiment / variation I was doing a while back, but threw it out the window when I decided it didn't work TOO well. If I saw only 1 chrono boost saved up by the time my core finished, I would gas steal him instantly. If I saw 50+ energy saved up, I would hesitate on it and do it 50/50 depending on what I thought might happen. If I saw 75+ saved up I would just go with the build because he's 90% going to do a 4 gate, and if not you will be 3 probes ahead. The only REAL way other than the reads above of executing a gas steal AND keeping the timings relatively the same is to cut probes down to 20/21. Since you know for sure your opponent is going to 4 gate, I guess it shouldn't be too bad if you want a micro battle, but you REALLY have to be active with your first 3 stalkers + 2 zealots OR 5 stalkers (you can make the 4th and 5th units STALKERS because your 3rd and 4th gate will be delayed slightly for warpgate tech anyways because of the probe cut) Again, it's your call, my build isn't set in stone  My recommendation is if you feel you can use your starting 3 stalkers very effectively and feel comfortable and patient enough to wait it out, go for it! Like you stated though, I would only suggest it on cross positions, and most preferably Shattered, Abyssal, or TDA cross position anyways. Great to know it's working for you though and I'm honored to have people try adding new ideas onto the build 
Yes I agree with you, about having to cut the probes. What I really like is how they push you because of the delayed stalker, and then are surprised with 3 stalkers, against some players I am simply able to snipe the probe/pylon, pull back to my ramp and greet them with 2 zealots+ my stalkers and be in a very great position.
Really appreciate your opener my friend, keep it up
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On August 31 2011 12:51 Vlare wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 12:04 SaroVati wrote:On August 31 2011 08:39 Vlare wrote: Been doing this build lately, I really like it. Thanks for this Saro, working vs 1700+ masters players on NA. I have no doubt in its ability to work at higher levels as well. I threw in a gas steal on cross positions to further force the 4gate... what are your thoughts on this Saro ? No problem  Hm I had a little experiment / variation I was doing a while back, but threw it out the window when I decided it didn't work TOO well. If I saw only 1 chrono boost saved up by the time my core finished, I would gas steal him instantly. If I saw 50+ energy saved up, I would hesitate on it and do it 50/50 depending on what I thought might happen. If I saw 75+ saved up I would just go with the build because he's 90% going to do a 4 gate, and if not you will be 3 probes ahead. The only REAL way other than the reads above of executing a gas steal AND keeping the timings relatively the same is to cut probes down to 20/21. Since you know for sure your opponent is going to 4 gate, I guess it shouldn't be too bad if you want a micro battle, but you REALLY have to be active with your first 3 stalkers + 2 zealots OR 5 stalkers (you can make the 4th and 5th units STALKERS because your 3rd and 4th gate will be delayed slightly for warpgate tech anyways because of the probe cut) Again, it's your call, my build isn't set in stone  My recommendation is if you feel you can use your starting 3 stalkers very effectively and feel comfortable and patient enough to wait it out, go for it! Like you stated though, I would only suggest it on cross positions, and most preferably Shattered, Abyssal, or TDA cross position anyways. Great to know it's working for you though and I'm honored to have people try adding new ideas onto the build  Yes I agree with you, about having to cut the probes. What I really like is how they push you because of the delayed stalker, and then are surprised with 3 stalkers, against some players I am simply able to snipe the probe/pylon, pull back to my ramp and greet them with 2 zealots+ my stalkers and be in a very great position. Really appreciate your opener my friend, keep it up 
yeah for sure that is what I tried to get my timings based around. This build really rewards players who can keep the sharp timings in check while being active with the units they acquire early game. Like I said earlier, if everything is controlled very nicely, this build should be a near auto-win vs. standard 4 gates on maps like Tal'darim Alter. Glad you are finding the timings so smooth too 
If time passes and my PvZ starts getting figured out, I'll post it too. It's a great mix up to throw a zerg off especially in tournament play aka BO3 or BO5's etc. If it gets popular, it'd actually make the PvZ matchup on certain maps easier as a whole as zergs would be basing new timings around the strong push I make :D
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Why do you people want to still 4gate? maybe learn to play blinkstalkerz/colo games. This build is only valid for defense, not offense. So, fast tech builds are so much ahead. And you cant do anything against gas steal.
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If you see your opponent fast-techs, you can:
1. Gas steal him 2. Take your 2nd gas as fast as him and hard tech too 3. 4-gate him ( the timings are slower than an agressive 4 gate, but on the other hand it's also stronger since you have more eco )
Against a gas steal, you can still 4-gate him, as his build will be slightly delayed. Or just kill the assimilator and take your 2nd gas, you won't be that far behind.
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On August 31 2011 16:07 mazqo wrote: Why do you people want to still 4gate? maybe learn to play blinkstalkerz/colo games. This build is only valid for defense, not offense. So, fast tech builds are so much ahead. And you cant do anything against gas steal.
Lol not to be cheeky or anything, but I would probably give you a good bet my blink stalker play is stronger than yours It's my main PvP strategy. I never said this was my main strategy all the time, and I definitely also encourage other styles of play, however having a strong 4gate is absolutely ESSENTIAL for playing protoss, so I don't know why people aren't allowed to learn this build.
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So I've played a fair number of games with that build, and while I still like it, I found that it's indeed very risky if you get gas-stolen.
It takes ages for your 3 stalkers to kill the assimilator and if you wait for the 2 zealots to kill it, and he's taken a fast gas, you're far behind in tech.
This leaves you with no choice other than 4-gating him. Problem is: good players can hold a 4-gate especially as the warp is slightly delayed, since you're spending your chronos into probes. The attack can't really start before 6', which is too late versus good protoss, who will just temporize with sentries until their immortal is done. After that, you're severely behind..
I get gas-stolen an insane amount of times with that build, far more than usual. Of course that's logical: with their scouting probe they see you're spending a ton of chronos on the nexus, so they suspect you'll be teching, so they take your gas.
So the only real solution to a gas steal seems to be 4 gating agressively, which is exactly what your opponent is expecting Or to take a fast 2nd gas, which kindda disturbs the build.
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Any chance of re-uploading the replays? I think replayfu went down
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Replays are broken. 
Great post btw! Could you upload a replay of what you do when your opponent isn't 4 gating, and possibly decides on blink stalkers or 3 gate robo?
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On September 09 2011 23:06 Nyast wrote:So I've played a fair number of games with that build, and while I still like it, I found that it's indeed very risky if you get gas-stolen. It takes ages for your 3 stalkers to kill the assimilator and if you wait for the 2 zealots to kill it, and he's taken a fast gas, you're far behind in tech. This leaves you with no choice other than 4-gating him. Problem is: good players can hold a 4-gate especially as the warp is slightly delayed, since you're spending your chronos into probes. The attack can't really start before 6', which is too late versus good protoss, who will just temporize with sentries until their immortal is done. After that, you're severely behind.. I get gas-stolen an insane amount of times with that build, far more than usual. Of course that's logical: with their scouting probe they see you're spending a ton of chronos on the nexus, so they suspect you'll be teching, so they take your gas. So the only real solution to a gas steal seems to be 4 gating agressively, which is exactly what your opponent is expecting  Or to take a fast 2nd gas, which kindda disturbs the build.
I've had this same problem. Its generally a good idea for you to gas steal when using this build. This way you're basically daring them to 4gate you, and in my experience(High diamond) they generally oblige.
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I just watched Sarovati do this build vs Tyler on Tyler's stream. Tyler didn't really seem to have a good answer to it, good to know it's still viable.
(For those interested, here's the link to the VOD, game starts around an hour in: http://www.twitch.tv/liquidtyler/b/298459196 )
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