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On December 30 2011 08:56 deathtrance wrote:
Just wondering, could you remake the layout pictures for 1.3 such that it looks like 1.2? Because I prefer to have a the picture of the layout in front of me while I play, and all that black coloring is not printer friendly at all.
Yes, I will.
Thanks for all the effort you put into the layout. I am seriously considering it to try and take my game to the next level, but as a Protoss player just a bit concerned about "tapping" as you only assigned two control groups to the buildings where I would typically prefer 4 (Nexus, Gateways, Robo/Stargate, Upgrades). Any suggestions on that?
Also, Mouse 4 and Mouse 5 feels a bit awkward if you have to constantly click it to do your macro. How do you handle that?
You can tap using the Pro Protoss setup by pressing mouse 4, mouse 5, tab, tab, mouse 4, mouse 5, tab, tab. It's an easy beat, mouse mouse pinkie pinkie, if your mouse buttons 4 and 5 are in a comfortable location. If not, then you may need to hotkey your units/structures differently than shown. Place the nexus on 3, gateways on 4, robo on T, and Stargate on 5 (the least commonly used structure, which is why it's on the furthest one from your hand). Place your Colossus and stalkers on your mouse. Templar on G. Scout on Harass 2 until it's needed for harass.
Mouse 4 and 5 are right under thumb using the Ikari Laser mouse by Steel Series, and many Logitech mice. They are the "forward" and "Backward" buttons that default to web navigation. The majority of 5 button mice have these, but yours may not. Where are your 4 and 5?
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It sure looks interesting and effective, and I already did switch from Standard to Grid in Season 2 so I don't think it would be a problem for me. However, I'm sort of in doubt. While it looks and sounds great, the detail is lacking a bit. You're clearly not an amazing player yourself, which doesn't stop the layout from being great, but it would probably help your credibility to have at least a few master players make videos of them using it and explaining what they like about it.
I personally hate moving my hand when playing because it will lead to misclicks. While I'm a strong proponent of backspace-inject, I have often had issues with it (because of lacking queens) and I'm not using it as well as I used to. All of this combined means I have a lot of motivation to try your setup... but it's hard to motivate relearning a hotkey setup over a week when all I have is your promise that it's effective 
If you have contact with master players using it, please let me know how they feel about it, it would definitely help me get on it.
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Y U NO UPLOAD PROTOSS PRO VERSION?
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Glad you're interested, tobberoth!
I have been contacted by about 10 masters players who have switched. Every one has liked it, most saying they love it. Most recently, I was contacted by a high EU masters Terran who was so excited by it, and loved it so much, that he's going to help me produce around 8 tutorial videos (what we have planned so far) showing how to practice most effectively, and how to get the most out of the layout.
If you use the pro layout, use the Zerg-style camera assignment for the alt-cams. Once I update the layouts they will all be like the zerg one.
On January 03 2012 21:53 k3m4 wrote:
Y U NO UPLOAD PROTOSS PRO VERSION? Protoss and Terran use the same pro layout, if you read the full name it says "Optimus 1.3 Pro Terran Protoss".
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Thanks for your answer. I have started working on getting the Pro Zerg one down now. It's very hard to get used to, but that's what I expected. Gotten past the "omfg, it's like i'm 5 years old" now and was at least able to beat a medium AI  Won't touch laddering until I can reliably beat GTAI hard.
My impression so far:
* Injection and basecams are actually wonderful. I'm forcing myself to use it (because it's the reason I wanted to try darkgrid) and I'm keeping my energy down, so it's working fine. I used to use the minimap to get between bases so this is great.
* Using shift is quite annoying since you're keeping your pinky on q. I have to move my hand quite a bit on my Razer Blackwidow to get my pinky to shift.
* Same as above, my blackwidow isn't too cool with keeping tumb on alt, you have to tilt your hand way too much. I'm keeping it on space and it's close enough to use it for the base cams, so it's still OK.
* The massive setup for army... I can't even keep my whole army on T and my lings on R, so I will need a LOT of training to get this working.
* Using mouse buttons, so hard. I like it and I will keep it, but man, so hard getting used to.
* The setup time for each new base feels long... but I realize this is because it's not in muscle memory yet, and you only do it once per base so it doesn't even matter.
Overall, I feel it has a buttload of potential and I hope I can get used to it soon. While doing my opening felt impossible when I started, I almost feel like I pull it off better now since it's easier to jump between scout and main.
UPDATE: Played some more now, easily own Very Hard AI at this point.
Gotten used to much of the things mentioned above, here's my current issues:
* Using T for your whole army feels weird. Even with my finger on F constantly, it just feels very far. Again, probably just need more training. I especially find it hard to select new units and add to my army, shift+t feels VERY far.
* Noticed something great about the camera keys: I keep my APM up. If I have nothing else to do, I've started just jumping around checking my bases. Somehow, this makes it feel like the game is moving slower, because you're keeping up with your inject progress better.
* I can't believe I haven't used more control groups before. So easy to harass with muta when I have them all on V, and so easy to attack their front while they are hunting my mutas in the back. Won't be close to as easy against real players, but I didn't even use to do such things against AI.
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I just have a question regarding my CC's. I see the camera option for em, but i can't see the control group for all of them combined.
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@Tobberoth: Thanks for writing that all up! If T is too much of a reach for your whole army, consider swapping it with the R or G control groups.
Don't rest your thumb on alt, do it on space bar like you are. You don't want your hand curled that much! When you say "Base Cams" you mean the Alt+Q,W,A,S,D,F cams right?
Mouse buttons, ha ha ha. Switching is like one giant 3-train collision in your brain for the first like 10-15 games. I always imagined myself clutching my head and just running around shouting "AHHHHH" when I got especially frustrated. Made me laugh and let me re-focus.
As for feeling your AMP stay fast, I find that when I watch IdrA's stream, I can think as fast as he is (not that I have his sense for timings, but I can easily keep up with his actions including thinking of what the next one is), but I can't execute near as fast. When I'm playing sometimes my mind starts moving slower, waiting for my hands to keep up. With the layered camera, moving and checking is so instant, I think it helps keep the brain working at max. But this is just my own mad theory .
I'm glad it's working well for you. Hopefully you can get your base set up time to be really fast. As for shift being a pain, maybe try not tippin your hand in so far?
After you've had some more practice with it, if you have any suggestions for improvements I'd love to discuss them. Keep us filled in how it's going for you.
@Limesareoranges: The CC's are placed on your mouse for the Pro layout.
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wow, nice set-ups, and it is presented cleanly. I'm sure it'll help but i'm too lazy now to learn a new hotkey set up xD
thanks for sharing!
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I love the new layout, although I have not yet mastered it. However, I have a question. I am playing Protoss and with my old hotkey setup (standard) I loved to use a lot of control groups for my tech, so in the beginning my core would be on 6, so I could check my warpgate all the time and later I would have for example on 5 robo, on 6 my forges, on 7 twilight council, 8 bay or archives etc..
So, the question is, how do I keep track of my running upgrades and the chronoboost usage on them. Do I have to come back with Alt + A to my main all the time and look actively on the progress bar and the building? Or do I have to hotkey all my tech on mouse 4 together with my nexus and then click on the building portraits in the control group?
But after all, I really like the layout, harassment is absolutely awesome with it, everything is so easily accessible and just perfectly thought out. Thanks a lot man, keep up the good work! <3
Edit: Regarding my question, I see often times a lot of pros (MC comes to mind) who don't bind tech at all. How do they cope with keeping track of every upgrade?
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Thanks Yoshi! I appreciate the feedback.
@Kuba: You can use a "tech cam", for instance, making 1 your tech cam and 2 your proxy cam. Clicking from a control group would be really inefficient. It also is good if you build your tech in view of a nexus, so you can use those as tech cams as well. I guess you could drop some army control groups for tech control groups, but the protoss control group layout uses every control group well, so that would be a shame. Maybe have a tech on G, and just rely on manual selection for colossus control?
I'm glad you're liking the rest of it so well! Rock 'em.
EDIT: How do the pros do it? Well, I have a timer in my head, just from playing enough, I just feel when an upgrade should be done. I imagine they do the same, except they're even better at it since they play 20x as much as I do. A tech cam isn't a bad alternative, though, especially one as easy as pressing 1 to check. It will even help you develop your own ability to feel timings. Not to mention, a tech cam or two is actually much faster for placing chronoboosts mid-battle. Tap 1, mouse 5, F, click, double-tap space, and tada, you're back to your battle while keeping your chronos tight. You can do that REALLY fast with practice.
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Oh well, just tried the "tech cam" idea in two games vs the computer and I have to admit, it feels really intuitive and simple. Thanks a lot man, now I can go in to hardcore practice mode and master the layout perfectly! =)
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This layout will make me use camera hotkeys, yay! I wasn't able to force myself into using F1-F5, but here it's easily accessible  Thanks!
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On January 04 2012 18:43 FoxyMayhem wrote:
@Limesareoranges: The CC's are placed on your mouse for the Pro layout.
I REALLY like the pro layout, I practised all day with it vs AI and played 3 ladder games. Maybe its just my mouse or just me, but I HATE using my thumb to click on those pesky buttons. It's just not natural. My alternative was to put my CC and OC's on the "R" key instead of starports and techlabs and just add those to "spacebar" with the racks and factory. Also I removed the techlabs from the control group and just used my 6th base cam for it because I never go into a 6 base scenario.
Do you have any other suggestions for the CC's?
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Wow this looks really awesome to me, i'd love to try this out when i get home from my holidays! <3 However i've got one question for you, i've had problems in the past rebinding keys to mouse 4/5 , my logitech G500 seems to weirdly not support this. Or is there something special i need to do to get it working?
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On January 05 2012 06:23 Qiw wrote:
Wow this looks really awesome to me, i'd love to try this out when i get home from my holidays! <3 However i've got one question for you, i've had problems in the past rebinding keys to mouse 4/5 , my logitech G500 seems to weirdly not support this. Or is there something special i need to do to get it working?
Do you have the official drivers installed for your mouse? Usually, Microsofts preinstalled drivers won't work properly with more than 3 mouse buttons.
Go to logitechs site and make sure you have the latest drivers installed.
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On January 05 2012 06:23 Qiw wrote:
Wow this looks really awesome to me, i'd love to try this out when i get home from my holidays! <3 However i've got one question for you, i've had problems in the past rebinding keys to mouse 4/5 , my logitech G500 seems to weirdly not support this. Or is there something special i need to do to get it working?
I had this same problem with this mouse. You need to either:
1. download the "logitech gaming software" program and use it to rebind the O & P keys to your mouse buttons, or,
2. manually change the "hotkeys" in the SCII menu to use your mouse buttons instead of O & P to create/add/select these control groups
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On January 05 2012 09:28 Yam483 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 06:23 Qiw wrote:
Wow this looks really awesome to me, i'd love to try this out when i get home from my holidays! <3 However i've got one question for you, i've had problems in the past rebinding keys to mouse 4/5 , my logitech G500 seems to weirdly not support this. Or is there something special i need to do to get it working? I had this same problem with this mouse. You need to either: 1. download the "logitech gaming software" program and use it to rebind the O & P keys to your mouse buttons, or, 2. manually change the "hotkeys" in the SCII menu to use your mouse buttons instead of O & P to create/add/select these control groups
You can also bind mouse 4/5 to the "alternate" hotkey for those control groups, allowing you to use O, P, mouse4, and/or mouse5 to access these hotkeys.
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@FoxyMayhem: My mouse 4 & 5 are directly under my thumb, but I find it hard to use them as quickly as I would tapping with my left hand. 4, 5, tab, tab, oh I need to chrono, 4f, 5 tab, click seems a bit long. I do like the tech cam that you suggested to Kuba though.
Also, thanks again for the excellent layout (Protoss Pro), I find that I use my camera hotkeys a lot more (previously only used about 3) though I am still missing my 4 control groups for tapping a bit (Nexus, Gateways, Robo/Stargate, Tech) but love the way you have setup the army hotkeys - definitely much more efficient when microing. Will keep you posted on how I find it as I get more used to the hotkeys. Any ETA on when we can expect those "training" clips?
@Kuba: How do you find the tech cam working for you? I think it is an excellent idea to keep track of of your upgrades, but requires additional selecting of buildings when you want to go for the next set of upgrades.
@Qiw: I also had a Logitech mouse and as the other posters mentioned, you need to get their drivers ad then just remap your mouse buttons to O & P to it ti work.
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On January 03 2012 19:55 Tobberoth wrote:It sure looks interesting and effective, and I already did switch from Standard to Grid in Season 2 so I don't think it would be a problem for me. However, I'm sort of in doubt. While it looks and sounds great, the detail is lacking a bit. You're clearly not an amazing player yourself, which doesn't stop the layout from being great, but it would probably help your credibility to have at least a few master players make videos of them using it and explaining what they like about it. I personally hate moving my hand when playing because it will lead to misclicks. While I'm a strong proponent of backspace-inject, I have often had issues with it (because of lacking queens) and I'm not using it as well as I used to. All of this combined means I have a lot of motivation to try your setup... but it's hard to motivate relearning a hotkey setup over a week when all I have is your promise that it's effective If you have contact with master players using it, please let me know how they feel about it, it would definitely help me get on it.
I am a masters player that has used it longer than anyone else has...and I promise you...it is WAY easier than...well...everything else.
The inject method used by the Darkgrid is initially extremely weird. It takes some time to get accustomed to, but, once it's there, it feels faster than the backspace method. Unit ability control is also easier, considering it's all on 'f' and 'e'....
Is there anything specifically you'd like to ask? Or...just my general opinion?? If the latter...it's effing amazing, put simply.
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On January 04 2012 01:23 FoxyMayhem wrote:Glad you're interested, tobberoth! I have been contacted by about 10 masters players who have switched. Every one has liked it, most saying they love it. Most recently, I was contacted by a high EU masters Terran who was so excited by it, and loved it so much, that he's going to help me produce around 8 tutorial videos (what we have planned so far) showing how to practice most effectively, and how to get the most out of the layout. If you use the pro layout, use the Zerg-style camera assignment for the alt-cams. Once I update the layouts they will all be like the zerg one. Protoss and Terran use the same pro layout, if you read the full name it says "Optimus 1.3 Pro Terran Protoss".
wow when can we expect those tutorial videos?
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EPT
