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Good day,
I am a moderately successful platinum level player on the NA ladder and general StarCraft enthusiast. This is my first guide.
I do not claim credit for this build, rather this is based off of a build done by coLFireZerg that I caught on the IPL stream earlier this month (link at the end). I thought it was a cool build and set about trying to reverse engineer it. I present it here to help expand the Zerg knowledge base.
Intro - There was a wall.
How many times have you tried for early harass and come smack up against a Protoss wall in with cannons? You know the one. Protoss has thrown down a couple cannons and sim citied their buildings around their natural in such a way that makes attacking difficult, and harassment nearly impossible. Your 'lings can't get a surround on anything and a lone zealot will just make rude gestures from a choke point. If Zerg really wants to force the issue they'll be fighting in cramped spaces and allowing the Protoss to use the terrain to their advantage. By being the aggressor, Zerg is forced to fight in sub-optional conditions. Many Zerg respond to this strategy by getting a quick third base and allowing the Protoss to take the game to the mid game.
When a Protoss FFE's he concentrates his force in his natural and relies on map terrain (ie walls and cliffs) to protect their flanks and rear. Afterall, zerglings can't fly. But what if they could?
This build exploits that expectation and tries to hit a timing window to do terrible terrible damage to a FFE-ing protoss with a speedling/bainling drop.
The objective is to have drops, overlord speed, ling speed, bainlings and a couple dozen zerglings done and airlifted into the Protoss main at the 8:00 minute mark. This gets past his cannons and his wall allows us access to the wide open zerg-friendly spaces in his main base.
At this point in the game, a FFEing Protoss should be focusing on tech and economy and just starting to transition into building an army.
Build Order
Drone if no other instructions are given.
9 overlord.
13 pool
15 gas
14 4 zerglings
16 queen
18 overlord
21 lair
21 hatchery at your natural
24 2nd gas
26 2 overlords
29 ventral sacks (5:50 mark)
31 metabolic boost
31 overlord
32 overlord
33 bainling nest
stop droning, mass zerglings, don't get supply blocked, rally to the pickup zone.
8:00 mark, 52/52 supply, dropping with 20+ lings
Things to do for the first 8 minutes.
*Use your 'lings and queen to deny scouting and check for proxy pylons.
*Protoss should be trying to probe scout you to determine what you're up to. It may be useful to let him see your expansion. He could conclude you're going to be droning hard in response to his expansion. However, if Protoss sees you with double extractor and a lair, he'll either attack you, or prepare a defense. If you feel that Protoss has wind of this, then it may be useful to abandon the drop and transition into something more standard.
*You'll need to decide on rally point and an attack path where they won't be scouted and move/rally all of your overlords there as you'll want your units in place prior to the attack commencing.
The Attack
At this point we have several overlords, zerglings and a few bainlings all sitting outside of your opponents base.
Split your overlords into two groups, one loaded with with bainlings, and the rest loaded with speedlings.
Take the speedling group and drop them in your opponents base. Remember it'll take 8 seconds to fully unload, so try to do it somewhere out of Protoss's vision. You can either keep your overlords handy for a speedy retreat, or waypoint them back to the pickup zone for another loadup.
Don't unload your bainlings right away, instead, keep watch for good targets to drop them on.
I've experimented with putting one overlord with bainlings on a different attack path, for the natural expansion. With your opponent focused on fighting off the 'lings, he may miss seeing the bainling drop.
Zergling target priority.
1) Enemy army: Kill stuff that is warping in, or at least get a good surround and free hits on it. Try not to loose too many 'lings. Get good surrounds on zealots and stalkers.
2) Probes: Sometimes Protoss will try fight with his probes. Don't engage in a narrow area, try to pull them out and get a surround on them.
3) Pylons: Supply block and depower buildings and prevent warp ins. Nothing is more glorious then a dark dead Protoss city.
Tech buildings: This is situational. If there is a juicy target, kill it. Cybernetic cores, stargates and robo bays are all good targets.
Bainling target priority.
Probes: Protoss will sometimes try to save his probes by pulling them to his natural. If this happens, bainling drop his natural and reap the reward. It is the ultimate goal of this attack to deal serious economic damage to Protoss.
Sentries: If Protoss has collected a little ball of sentries, introduce them to raining bainling death.
Zealots: If your lings are getting a little thin, help them out with a bainling or two.
Don't forget, you can morph bainlings in the enemy base and load up for additional bombing runs.
Additionally, if you have the APM, and you've shown a bainling drop, it may be worth running empty overlords over probes to panic and stress your opponent.
The Golden Rule
If things look to be going badly, load up and leave. You do not have to sacrifice everything on this attack.
Transitioning
One of three things has happened now.
1) Protoss has been crippled. GG. Collect win. Rave on forums about this awesome build you read about. 
2) We messed up. The drop was late, spotted, held off, failed to do damage, any or all of the above. We've got two options here, turtle up and try to come back from a deficit, or GG, collect loss and rage on forums about this crap build you read about.
3) The match is reset. Maybe we were not able to get all his probes. Maybe we were only able to deny some buildings. Either way, Protoss should now be behind where he wants to be and be playing from a deficit (either perceived or real). The best thing to do is keep up drop harass with bainlings bombs while you drone and up. Try to force cannons, force units and generally make him afraid to leave his base while you get ahead and crush him.
Original Game.
coLFireZerg vs LGShew
Game starts at about the 1h 27m mark.
Replays
Success
First attempt. Didn't really have the build order sorted out properly at this time. Early drop transitioned into a bainling bust. I didn't kill nearly as many probes as I would have liked with the early drop, however, my opponent decided that he had had enough and left.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-227138.jpg)
There are some micro mistakes here as I thought his front was walled off. I wound up running some lings in and out past his cannons as I tried to ferry them over the gap. Had I realized that earlier, I would have simply rallied lings deep into his base. Overall this is a longer game where I basically locked him into his base and harassed him to death.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-227139.jpg)
This game I tried a dual pronged drop. However, the bainlings were early and didn't do as much damage as they could have. As I wasn't fully planning to do the drop, and transitioned into it, I wound up dropping closer to the 10 minute mark. Fortunately, I intercepted a push just prior to the drop and caught my opponent teching.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-227144.jpg)
Failure
This was poorly executed vs a 3 gate expand. As such, Protoss was slowly building an army and scouted me moving out. Additionally, I failed to transition out of the drop mentality and get tech. When I bainlinged his army, I should have had some sort of follow up ready. As it was, I lost with WAY to much money in the bank.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-227140.jpg)
I had some paralyzing indecision about where to drop. As such, the drop was late, failed to do damage, AND I failed my macro to have any sort of follow up. I transitioned into losing my whole freakin' base. Overall this is an excellent example of how NOT to do it.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-227141.jpg)
This started so well. However, I failed to kill enough probes. Also, at the 13 minute mark, I totally blew my drop. I feel that if this was the turning point that allowed my opponent to get back into the game and win.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-227143.jpg)
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This has been done for a very long time.
2 things must be part of an anti-Forge FE build to be all-in:
1) you stay on 2 hatcheries
2) you don't tech up quickly
This falls into either and therefore you're in a very bad position if you don't do damage.
That said, good force fields and probe pulling are able to prevent damage while Stargate Openers completely hard counter them. Pheonixes can kill the Baneling filled overlords before they get into your base. At 8 minutes he won't have the proper stargate units to deal with this but once he gets them out it's pretty much a nail in the coffin.
Watch Naniwa's PvZ games during MLG Colombus when this was very popular.
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so you go all in vs a ffe build.... fast lair on 2 bases that early simply give you no drones. Assuming you have 2 queens, you still dont have enough income since you need to mine gas pretty early on.
If somehow you drop vs a 6 gates all in player, they always have enough stuff to kill your drop off. scouting the fast lair is not too hard in a forge FE build since high level always send out an early zealot to check 3rd/lair timing.
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Don't be so quick to bash this build - it's actually surprisingly effective, and can easily catch an opponent off guard. Even if your opponent is somewhat prepared, you can still do damage if you have good micro and multitasking with multiple baneling drops in both mineral lines, and keeping your zerglings alive running around his base and harassing probes/picking off units/buildings.
Of course you will fall into a bad position if you don't do damage with this. But due to the nature of the fact that it's a drop, it's almost impossible to not do any damage with it. Common sentry-heavy openings are weak against this, ling/bling (w/ drops) counters sentry play pretty badly.
Also stargate opening is a tossup, and in no way "hard counter" this build - your first void ray will pop out either the same time the drop happens, or a little before. If you don't happen to see this drop coming and send start sending your void to the zerg's nonexistant 3rd, you actually just lost the game because you will not have anything to defend your main. Sure void rays can kill an infinite amount of lings but by the time they do you won't have a main left. If you happen to see the units massing outside your base and start trying to clear overlords with the void and possibly your first phoenix, usually the zerg can get 1 drop off and you'll still have to deal with lings/bling in your base.
6 gate all in is also tricky, since warpgates finish at 8:00 - the same time this drop happens. It'll vary from game to game, if your warpgates finish a few seconds before the drop comes you should be able to hold if off unless he gets a few lucky (or your lack of micro/attention) baneling explosions on either your probes or zealots. If his drop comes and your warpgate tech is still a few seconds away from completing... well GL to you.
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i have a similar build, though its not banedrop, but a fast nydus rush in ZvP, more or less all in as well. well. i know this thread is old and I'll keep it short, but maybe someone stumbles accross it, so here it comes:
Requirement for this tactic is a fast expanding protoss with either forge-expand or 3gate-expand.
You open with a fast expand yourself (either hatch or pool first. Youll need the larva and money for a greater rush):
- 14 pool + 17hatch or 15hatch 15pool
- 15: gas
- 15: overlord
- 15: 4 zerglings, queen (if pool first, varies with hatch first) --> scout!
- 22: lair + 2nd gas
- drones. only drones
- lair ready: roach warren + nydus canal. now zerglings and if warren ready, then roaches
- about minute 7 (?): place the nydus exit on the protoss mainbase platform
notes:
- the faster the protoss expands and the more canons, the higher the success rate.
- place at least 2 or maybe even 3 overlords hidden around the protoss base
- the nydus doesnt need to be hidden (the protoss will hear it anyway), but either hidden or somewhere between his main and his units. if he sees it, he may panic and try to kill it with his probes. if its too far away, he wont make it in time. if you get some units out, you can easily place a 2nd nydus exit even anywhere in his base
- dont forget to save 100 gas for the nydus
- pull back, if its not working. you've lost 100/100 or 200/300, if you dont use nydus again
if you get through, you can do lots of damage from here. you can do two things, and depending how the game evolves, you will wisely choose:
- all in: keep building units and nyduses everywhere in his base, snipe pylons and destroy units (dont kill probes, you want him supplyblocked)
- kill eco with zerglings while keeping him busy with roaches, maybe even in his choke, and start droning up slowly
i usually hit the protosses while theyre building up their 6gate. i even dont bother to hide the nydus. havent done it many times, so i havent met my maker yet. the only counter i can think about is not focusing too much on eco, building units before warpgate is ready, building pylons near the overlords they cant shoot and a really fast reaction. but most players think, theyre pretty safe. well. good luck
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I stopped FFEing for awhile due to facing a similar style that was semi-poplular in diamond a couple of months ago. Since I started FFEing again, I haven't had to deal with it, thankfully. Stop spreading such a nasty build!
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United Kingdom20069 Posts
At 8:00 in my standard FFE i have either 3 sentries and 7 zealots with +1 attack or a stargate, 2 void rays and gates finishing, cant see this doing any damage especially as it is easily scoutable that you didnt take a third (2 zeals before 6:00, he needs speedlings or roaches to deny, and both ling speed and roaches will mess up 3 base timing by enough to be suprisingly all in)
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United States8476 Posts
On November 19 2011 14:24 Cyro wrote:
At 8:00 in my standard FFE i have either 3 sentries and 7 zealots with +1 attack or a stargate, 2 void rays and gates finishing, cant see this doing any damage especially as it is easily scoutable that you didnt take a third (2 zeals before 6:00, he needs speedlings or roaches to deny, and both ling speed and roaches will mess up 3 base timing by enough to be suprisingly all in)
I completely agree with rsvp. If you've never faced it, don't be so quick to judge it. In fact, I find your assessment that you'll have 2 voidrays with gateways finishing or 3 sentries and 7 zealots by 8:00 a bit unreasonable. Voidray builds should reasonably have 2 voidrays out around 8:10-8:20 with gateways finishing a bit later. Meanwhile, I don't seen how you can have 3 sentries and 7 zealots by 8:00 unless you're going for a very quick 6 gate, which imo is the best "blind" counter to this build. However, even with that 6 gate, the drop can still do a lot of damage.
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Is it better than a roache drop? that's my main concern to be honest.
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United Kingdom20069 Posts
On November 19 2011 14:54 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 14:24 Cyro wrote:
At 8:00 in my standard FFE i have either 3 sentries and 7 zealots with +1 attack or a stargate, 2 void rays and gates finishing, cant see this doing any damage especially as it is easily scoutable that you didnt take a third (2 zeals before 6:00, he needs speedlings or roaches to deny, and both ling speed and roaches will mess up 3 base timing by enough to be suprisingly all in) I completely agree with rsvp. If you've never faced it, don't be so quick to judge it. In fact, I find your assessment that you'll have 2 voidrays with gateways finishing or 3 sentries and 7 zealots by 8:00 a bit unreasonable. Voidray builds should reasonably have 2 voidrays out around 8:10-8:20 with gateways finishing a bit later. Meanwhile, I don't seen how you can have 3 sentries and 7 zealots by 8:00 unless you're going for a very quick 6 gate, which imo is the best "blind" counter to this build. However, even with that 6 gate, the drop can still do a lot of damage.
Anyone who scouts zerg hasnt taken a third base when facing a FFE who doesnt go for ~6gate is doing it wrong. Teching a ton or doing a delayed gateway timing will just get you killed.
Its not a blind counter when you can scout he doesnt have a fast third around a minute before committing to it.
I did a test just for this, i am able to send a zealot to confirm his third, and have 6 zeals 4 sentries with +1 attack at about 7:45.
That is with the +1 zeal warp prism opening that i do most games, you have 5 gates and a full set of chrono when warpgate finishes, perfect execution you have 3 sentries and 11 zealots at ~8:08, with a robo and a warp prism almost done.
That is with only 38 probes, but i could have made more, i was just trying to get the units i could out for that timing.
Its blind and pretty allin-ish, but it hits earlier than most are accustomed to (when i engage 3 base zerg with it, ive got the 6 zeals 4 sentries in their third at 7:50) and the warp prism lets you mess around with him, if you kill 1 of his 3 bases it is pretty much game and forcefields are damn good on ramps. Roaches are the general tool for defending it successfully, but they are also slow, and hitting his third and main at the same time with a few zeals killing drones in his natural during a timing that is around 1 minute earlier than usual (only 5gate) will kill anyone who doesnt know what you are doing via scouting or intuition, and such works amazingly on ladder. Ive taken games from masters Z from it (some even gg before you engage when they realise what you are doing and they are not prepared for it) and am 100% win vs diamond Z on ladder using that opening.
You probably shouldnt build zeals vs a 2 base zerg, but i wanted to make a point using a timing i have practiced dozens of games with vs good players, it is really not all too hard to have those unit counts at that time if you cut some probes and maybe a gateway or two to do so. Against a 2 base zerg, with 38 probes ((16x2minerals)+(2x3gas)) you are really not behind, regardless of his drone count
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On November 19 2011 15:13 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 14:54 NrGmonk wrote:On November 19 2011 14:24 Cyro wrote:
At 8:00 in my standard FFE i have either 3 sentries and 7 zealots with +1 attack or a stargate, 2 void rays and gates finishing, cant see this doing any damage especially as it is easily scoutable that you didnt take a third (2 zeals before 6:00, he needs speedlings or roaches to deny, and both ling speed and roaches will mess up 3 base timing by enough to be suprisingly all in) I completely agree with rsvp. If you've never faced it, don't be so quick to judge it. In fact, I find your assessment that you'll have 2 voidrays with gateways finishing or 3 sentries and 7 zealots by 8:00 a bit unreasonable. Voidray builds should reasonably have 2 voidrays out around 8:10-8:20 with gateways finishing a bit later. Meanwhile, I don't seen how you can have 3 sentries and 7 zealots by 8:00 unless you're going for a very quick 6 gate, which imo is the best "blind" counter to this build. However, even with that 6 gate, the drop can still do a lot of damage. Anyone who scouts zerg hasnt taken a third base when facing a FFE who doesnt go for ~6gate is doing it wrong. Teching a ton or doing a delayed gateway timing will just get you killed. Its not a blind counter when you can scout he doesnt have a fast third around a minute before committing to it. I did a test just for this, i am able to send a zealot to confirm his third, and have 6 zeals 4 sentries with +1 attack at about 7:45. That is with the +1 zeal warp prism opening that i do most games, you have 5 gates and a full set of chrono when warpgate finishes, perfect execution you have 3 sentries and 11 zealots at ~8:08, with a robo and a warp prism almost done. That is with only 38 probes, but i could have made more, i was just trying to get the units i could out for that timing. Its blind and pretty allin-ish, but it hits earlier than most are accustomed to (when i engage 3 base zerg with it, ive got the 6 zeals 4 sentries in their third at 7:50) and the warp prism lets you mess around with him, if you kill 1 of his 3 bases it is pretty much game and forcefields are damn good on ramps. Roaches are the general tool for defending it successfully, but they are also slow, and hitting his third and main at the same time with a few zeals killing drones in his natural during a timing that is around 1 minute earlier than usual (only 5gate) will kill anyone who doesnt know what you are doing via scouting or intuition, and such works amazingly on ladder. Ive taken games from masters Z from it (some even gg before you engage when they realise what you are doing and they are not prepared for it) and am 100% win vs diamond Z on ladder using that opening. You probably shouldnt build zeals vs a 2 base zerg, but i wanted to make a point using a timing i have practiced dozens of games with vs good players, it is really not all too hard to have those unit counts at that time if you cut some probes and maybe a gateway or two to do so. Against a 2 base zerg, with 38 probes ((16x2minerals)+(2x3gas)) you are really not behind, regardless of his drone count
if you have that many units your warpgates will be so delayed or you will have cut too many probes... ie. this is only viable if you've scouted the tech ??
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United Kingdom20069 Posts
On November 19 2011 15:26 pezzaperry wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 15:13 Cyro wrote:On November 19 2011 14:54 NrGmonk wrote:On November 19 2011 14:24 Cyro wrote:
At 8:00 in my standard FFE i have either 3 sentries and 7 zealots with +1 attack or a stargate, 2 void rays and gates finishing, cant see this doing any damage especially as it is easily scoutable that you didnt take a third (2 zeals before 6:00, he needs speedlings or roaches to deny, and both ling speed and roaches will mess up 3 base timing by enough to be suprisingly all in) I completely agree with rsvp. If you've never faced it, don't be so quick to judge it. In fact, I find your assessment that you'll have 2 voidrays with gateways finishing or 3 sentries and 7 zealots by 8:00 a bit unreasonable. Voidray builds should reasonably have 2 voidrays out around 8:10-8:20 with gateways finishing a bit later. Meanwhile, I don't seen how you can have 3 sentries and 7 zealots by 8:00 unless you're going for a very quick 6 gate, which imo is the best "blind" counter to this build. However, even with that 6 gate, the drop can still do a lot of damage. Anyone who scouts zerg hasnt taken a third base when facing a FFE who doesnt go for ~6gate is doing it wrong. Teching a ton or doing a delayed gateway timing will just get you killed. Its not a blind counter when you can scout he doesnt have a fast third around a minute before committing to it. I did a test just for this, i am able to send a zealot to confirm his third, and have 6 zeals 4 sentries with +1 attack at about 7:45. That is with the +1 zeal warp prism opening that i do most games, you have 5 gates and a full set of chrono when warpgate finishes, perfect execution you have 3 sentries and 11 zealots at ~8:08, with a robo and a warp prism almost done. That is with only 38 probes, but i could have made more, i was just trying to get the units i could out for that timing. Its blind and pretty allin-ish, but it hits earlier than most are accustomed to (when i engage 3 base zerg with it, ive got the 6 zeals 4 sentries in their third at 7:50) and the warp prism lets you mess around with him, if you kill 1 of his 3 bases it is pretty much game and forcefields are damn good on ramps. Roaches are the general tool for defending it successfully, but they are also slow, and hitting his third and main at the same time with a few zeals killing drones in his natural during a timing that is around 1 minute earlier than usual (only 5gate) will kill anyone who doesnt know what you are doing via scouting or intuition, and such works amazingly on ladder. Ive taken games from masters Z from it (some even gg before you engage when they realise what you are doing and they are not prepared for it) and am 100% win vs diamond Z on ladder using that opening. You probably shouldnt build zeals vs a 2 base zerg, but i wanted to make a point using a timing i have practiced dozens of games with vs good players, it is really not all too hard to have those unit counts at that time if you cut some probes and maybe a gateway or two to do so. Against a 2 base zerg, with 38 probes ((16x2minerals)+(2x3gas)) you are really not behind, regardless of his drone count if you have that many units your warpgates will be so delayed or you will have cut too many probes... ie. this is only viable if you've scouted the tech ??
Its my standard opener vs fast 3 base zerg in response to FFE (essentially every game)
Warpgate isnt delayed, 10 of those zealots come from warpgates. 5 Instantly as research finishes (lined up with 4 extra gates) and then a chrono on each gate to make the cooldown only 18 seconds for the second round of zealots.
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Sorry for thread revival.
It's always amazing when I come up with an idea I think is cool and I find out that other people have thought of it too.
Recently I got the idea to do a Nydus rush against Protoss FFE. Apparently I'm not the only one. It can hit them much faster than a drop, though is vulnerable to being stopped if they have any units out.
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=272794&st=0
It's been working for me in Gold League so far. I've refined it a bit so I can get the Nydus to pop into their base at 6:40, but I think I can make it hit faster and harder if I experiment with getting a second gas guyser at some point. I had to send in just lings because I was using all my gas. But my minerals were low too so it'll be difficult to squeeze the gas and any roaches in there and still hit as early. This is literally like the third time I've tried it (without looking up any build orders for it), so I'm sure there's room for improvement.
My goal is to be able to get the Nydus up as fast as possible, regardless of other circumstances. Like literally, 14-gas 14-pool, then skip the queen to go for lair, expand asap, and as soon as the lair finishes, have enough gas to drop the Nydus. And as soon as that finishes, hopefully have enough gas to drop the worm. This game I had to delay the worm a bit because I needed 50 gas for the overseer.
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United Kingdom20069 Posts
A protoss who is playing correctly is not going to let a nydus finish inside the bounds of FFE wall under any circumstances. If he scouts you take gas before expand, your expand is late by even 3-5 seconds (those last few seconds are usually difficult to block nat with probe, or pylon block because of money constraints) or your third hatch isnt down in time, he would have to be a bad player to lose to something like that.
Like literally, 14-gas 14-pool, then skip the queen to go for lair, expand asap, and as soon as the lair finishes, have enough gas to drop the Nydus.
You are skipping the queen for lair, which means you have NOTHING to deny probe scouting. Slow lings will eventuly kill a probe, but he can send 2-3 just fine and be almost certain of exactly what you are doing, you have no way at all to stop him.
Forge Fast Expand leaves all their defenses at their ramp and so far they never seem to have units or sight in their main
Not. Going. To. Happen. outside of bronze-diamond league unless your opponent is drunk.
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Apologies Amaroq64, but I have to agree with Cyro here. Anywhere between bronze - diamond this might be OK. However, once you start getting to low masters, people will start to have knowledge of the current ZvP metagame, which is almost certainly fast 3 hatch before gas. If they don't see this, they'll turtle like mad. At low masters they may still miss they nydus though, if it's any consolation *shrug*. Beyond that, this simply will not work. Going 14/14 in this day and age is a MASSIVE alarm bell to protosses.
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United Kingdom20069 Posts
Honestly, 14/14 not so much. People still do it occasionally to me (2-3 out of 10 zergs) and 2hatch muta or infestor pops up every now and then also, but nydus just doesn't work, it will get killed before it pops up, but most importantly, the lack of scouting denial completely murders this.
Protoss will see A, you went 14/14, B, your natural was delayed, C, you went LAIR BEFORE QUEEN (note, queen is what kills the probe scout usually), D, you didn't take third at any point, E, you are literally building a nydus spawn building - you start this when your lair finishes, at the same time you start your queen, and you have literally nothing to stop him from getting to see all of this unless you hold position lings on your ramp, at which point, he would see everything i listed aside from the nydus building and know you were hiding something.
There is a ton more that he will be able to scout, and a competent player is just seriously not going to be under any threat from that kind of play. People dont have a clue what they are scouting for in gold, even in diamond, but higher up people will know what to look for, know that you cant stop them from looking and have the multitasking and control to do it and know how to react to the information you are throwing at them
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Good point Cyro. Whenever I FFE, I look for nydus first or any sneaky stuff.
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Ah, yeah, I'm in gold. I was worrying about that, wondering whether it was possible to stop it if they were careful to look for it. Do they generally patrol around in their base with a zealot or two or get vision pylons up better in higher leagues?
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Hmm... For 50 more minerals and the exact same amount of gas, you could rush to overlord speed and carrying. You'd just be ready a minute later and there would still need to be travel time. I think I could get the nydus rush down to 6:20 by using my first two overlords more efficiently. So an overlord dropping rush would be ready by 7:20? I'm guessing the delay to 8 minutes by the OP allows you to get stronger before you do the drop so it isn't so all-in-ish. Or just is delayed by the queen build time.
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United Kingdom20069 Posts
You're not going to come out ahead with anything remotely similar to that vs a competant player.
Do you bring roaches? What are your drone counts?
If you have nothing but lings for example, assuming he lets you finish the nydus, which is not going to happen, the protoss player can just wall his main-to-natural ramp, trapping himself down, sack his main, and then he has most likely double your income and warpgate about to finish and there is nothing you can do about it. Your lings cant attack the pylons without taking cannon fire and cant get enough surface area to take any of them down without like 20+ losses and too much time. If you kill his main and leave, you are behind, and thats the best you could possibly be hoping for
Thats a stupid scenario, but its hard to explain how impossibly difficult it is to actuly come out ahead. Most aggressive strategies are only good because of the suprise factor, and you have absolutely no scouting denial with this kind of play. The gas, delayed expansion, no third are all massive alarm bells, and nobody in their right mind is not going to drop every chrono they have on warpgate with 3-4 gateways and an extra cannon or two if they scout lair before queen.
At low master level you dont lose to baneling bust cause zerg took a bunch of gasses on 1 base and built shit. You lose because he took 3 hatch from a naked 14pool, taking gas immediately as his queen in main finishes and uses it to prevent probes from checking if he has gas, and then transfers some drones from his main to his natural/third and shows them to you, again blocking his main from scouting, so that you think he has more workers than he does.
He then hits you with a bunch of banelings while you have a zealot and a cannon with warpgate a minute away due to chrono's. Its dangerous because it is almost impossible to know that it is coming, but you are forced to play as if it was not, otherwise you would be unwinnably behind, for example people build only 1 cannon with an FFE, not 3-4, and they do it for that reason.
Also consider that anybody going FFE-Stargate quickly will have a void ray or two by 7:20
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EPT
