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Before you cry from Link0's GMness be aware that he is the strategy forums resident basher of anything not standard. That said Link0 has definitely pointed out one of the most difficult aspects of playing mech as T.
How do you deal with mass roaches with some mutas to distract the thors? The obvious answer is more tanks, but if you get more tanks, you risk a big switch into heavy magic box mutas that may overwhelm you (I have suffered many losses from this).
I am thinking that the answer (if there is one) to this problem probably lies with ghosts. Ghosts synergize into mech against zerg extremely well. They do well against mutas, and against a few thors zerg will have to magic box, removing any opportunity for focusing down your ghosts before you can snipe down all those mutas. They also really help with the infestor problem and can even deal with broods if you have enough energy. It is also helpeful that mech play has relatively little apm intensive action, so you will be free to concentrate on sniping.
I think that this type of ghost/mech play is currently pretty unexplored and it may solve the problems that many pros think makes mech unavailable in TvZ.
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On August 16 2011 02:39 statikg wrote:
Before you cry from Link0's GMness be aware that he is the strategy forums resident basher of anything not standard. That said Link0 has definitely pointed out one of the most difficult aspects of playing mech as T.
How do you deal with mass roaches with some mutas to distract the thors? The obvious answer is more tanks, but if you get more tanks, you risk a big switch into heavy magic box mutas that may overwhelm you (I have suffered many losses from this).
I am thinking that the answer (if there is one) to this problem probably lies with ghosts. Ghosts synergize into mech against zerg extremely well. They do well against mutas, and against a few thors zerg will have to magic box, removing any opportunity for focusing down your ghosts before you can snipe down all those mutas. They also really help with the infestor problem and can even deal with broods if you have enough energy. It is also helpeful that mech play has relatively little apm intensive action, so you will be free to concentrate on sniping.
I think that this type of ghost/mech play is currently pretty unexplored and it may solve the problems that many pros think makes mech unavailable in TvZ.
Yeah I understand that he is GM, I just have an issue with "blueflame hellions do damage or mech isnt viable", it's a narrowminded attitude. Lategame tvz mech with 10+ ghost is insane strong.
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On August 16 2011 02:58 Bonkerz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 02:39 statikg wrote:
Before you cry from Link0's GMness be aware that he is the strategy forums resident basher of anything not standard. That said Link0 has definitely pointed out one of the most difficult aspects of playing mech as T.
How do you deal with mass roaches with some mutas to distract the thors? The obvious answer is more tanks, but if you get more tanks, you risk a big switch into heavy magic box mutas that may overwhelm you (I have suffered many losses from this).
I am thinking that the answer (if there is one) to this problem probably lies with ghosts. Ghosts synergize into mech against zerg extremely well. They do well against mutas, and against a few thors zerg will have to magic box, removing any opportunity for focusing down your ghosts before you can snipe down all those mutas. They also really help with the infestor problem and can even deal with broods if you have enough energy. It is also helpeful that mech play has relatively little apm intensive action, so you will be free to concentrate on sniping.
I think that this type of ghost/mech play is currently pretty unexplored and it may solve the problems that many pros think makes mech unavailable in TvZ. Yeah I understand that he is GM, I just have an issue with "blueflame hellions do damage or mech isnt viable", it's a narrowminded attitude. Lategame tvz mech with 10+ ghost is insane strong.
The thing is how do we use ghosts to help with this mid-mid/late game roach problem? In my mind it works something like, cut down on thors signficiantly, use the extra gas to increase tanks and get ghosts who mixed with 1-2 thors will be sufficient to pretty much insta gib the mutas freeing up the thors to shoot roaches and any remaining energy can help by sniping roaches as well. (be sure to brush up on your snipe micro) The difficult question is when do we NEED to add ghosts to deal with this issue?
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On August 16 2011 03:02 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 02:58 Bonkerz wrote:On August 16 2011 02:39 statikg wrote:
Before you cry from Link0's GMness be aware that he is the strategy forums resident basher of anything not standard. That said Link0 has definitely pointed out one of the most difficult aspects of playing mech as T.
How do you deal with mass roaches with some mutas to distract the thors? The obvious answer is more tanks, but if you get more tanks, you risk a big switch into heavy magic box mutas that may overwhelm you (I have suffered many losses from this).
I am thinking that the answer (if there is one) to this problem probably lies with ghosts. Ghosts synergize into mech against zerg extremely well. They do well against mutas, and against a few thors zerg will have to magic box, removing any opportunity for focusing down your ghosts before you can snipe down all those mutas. They also really help with the infestor problem and can even deal with broods if you have enough energy. It is also helpeful that mech play has relatively little apm intensive action, so you will be free to concentrate on sniping.
I think that this type of ghost/mech play is currently pretty unexplored and it may solve the problems that many pros think makes mech unavailable in TvZ. Yeah I understand that he is GM, I just have an issue with "blueflame hellions do damage or mech isnt viable", it's a narrowminded attitude. Lategame tvz mech with 10+ ghost is insane strong. The thing is how do we use ghosts to help with this mid-mid/late game roach problem? In my mind it works something like, cut down on thors signficiantly, use the extra gas to increase tanks and get ghosts who mixed with 1-2 thors will be sufficient to pretty much insta gib the mutas freeing up the thors to shoot roaches and any remaining energy can help by sniping roaches as well. (be sure to brush up on your snipe micro) The difficult question is when do we NEED to add ghosts to deal with this issue?
I still havn't seen this comp that is actually deadly, I'm running some practice games atm tho, so we'll see what happens. Is this an allin from zerg?
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No its not an allin, its more of a tech switch. Say that you are heavily invested into thors and hellions with a couple tanks to help out. You have seen some muta harass and you have just taken your 3rd. Now all of a sudden, instead of continuing into infestor roach or going for quick BL zerg makes 2 rounds of roaches and just attacks straight into you. Your composition is not well designed to beat this type of army. Your thors will be focusing on the 6-10 mutas, meanwhile your 2-3tanks can do little to stop all your hellions from dieing horribly and ultimately without the hellion meatshield your thors will probably die to heavy roach play as they don't really counter roaches very well.
Now lets say you survive, naturally you will start replacing your dead thors with seige tanks because you almost got run over by mass roaches. However this time zerg macros up 20 mutas, and you only have a few thors left over because you thought mutas werent the main problem, now you get overrun by magic box mutas and lose everything. Likewise if you went heavy thor again, you probably get overrun by heavy roches with a few mutas.
As you can see the problem is the thor/tank balance which is basically impossible to keep correct because of the quickness with which zerg can make tech switches. Its possible that with some sort of double early armoury play this could be made to work anyway, but its not clear.
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On August 16 2011 03:25 statikg wrote:
No its not an allin, its more of a tech switch. Say that you are heavily invested into thors and hellions with a couple tanks to help out. You have seen some muta harass and you have just taken your 3rd. Now all of a sudden, instead of continuing into infestor roach or going for quick BL zerg makes 2 rounds of roaches and just attacks straight into you. Your composition is not well designed to beat this type of army. Your thors will be focusing on the 6-10 mutas, meanwhile your 2-3tanks can do little to stop all your hellions from dieing horribly and ultimately without the hellion meatshield your thors will probably die to heavy roach play as they don't really counter roaches very well.
Now lets say you survive, naturally you will start replacing your dead thors with seige tanks because you almost got run over by mass roaches. However this time zerg macros up 20 mutas, and you only have a few thors left over because you thought mutas werent the main problem, now you get overrun by magic box mutas and lose everything. Likewise if you went heavy thor again, you probably get overrun by heavy roches with a few mutas.
As you can see the problem is the thor/tank balance which is basically impossible to keep correct because of the quickness with which zerg can make tech switches. Its possible that with some sort of double early armoury play this could be made to work anyway, but its not clear.
Added reps vs muta roach.
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I've been watching Trump's stream a bunch and this is the opening that he often uses in TvZ. I've started playing this style myself and I've found that the hardest part about it is those damn counter attacks. I use sensor towers to see counter attacks coming at the mid-high diamond level. I can raise depots and a couple of tanks and hellions coupled with repair really help against those devastating run-bys.
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On August 16 2011 03:08 Bonkerz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 03:02 statikg wrote:On August 16 2011 02:58 Bonkerz wrote:On August 16 2011 02:39 statikg wrote:
Before you cry from Link0's GMness be aware that he is the strategy forums resident basher of anything not standard. That said Link0 has definitely pointed out one of the most difficult aspects of playing mech as T.
How do you deal with mass roaches with some mutas to distract the thors? The obvious answer is more tanks, but if you get more tanks, you risk a big switch into heavy magic box mutas that may overwhelm you (I have suffered many losses from this).
I am thinking that the answer (if there is one) to this problem probably lies with ghosts. Ghosts synergize into mech against zerg extremely well. They do well against mutas, and against a few thors zerg will have to magic box, removing any opportunity for focusing down your ghosts before you can snipe down all those mutas. They also really help with the infestor problem and can even deal with broods if you have enough energy. It is also helpeful that mech play has relatively little apm intensive action, so you will be free to concentrate on sniping.
I think that this type of ghost/mech play is currently pretty unexplored and it may solve the problems that many pros think makes mech unavailable in TvZ. Yeah I understand that he is GM, I just have an issue with "blueflame hellions do damage or mech isnt viable", it's a narrowminded attitude. Lategame tvz mech with 10+ ghost is insane strong. The thing is how do we use ghosts to help with this mid-mid/late game roach problem? In my mind it works something like, cut down on thors signficiantly, use the extra gas to increase tanks and get ghosts who mixed with 1-2 thors will be sufficient to pretty much insta gib the mutas freeing up the thors to shoot roaches and any remaining energy can help by sniping roaches as well. (be sure to brush up on your snipe micro) The difficult question is when do we NEED to add ghosts to deal with this issue? I still havn't seen this comp that is actually deadly, I'm running some practice games atm tho, so we'll see what happens. Is this an allin from zerg?
Ghosts can deal with Infestors and help against Neural, so that means you can get more Thors instead of the gas intensive Tanks (otherwise you would dump your minerals into hellions which don't help much). Because of this reasoning, I'm gonna try getting ghosts much earlier :D
On August 16 2011 00:26 Logick wrote:
Really Heavy Muta
[spoiler]Going super heavy muta really doesnt leave much gas leftover for anything but lings, So sit on your ass until you get a good amount of thors and hellions and push out and kill his third. Make sure you have enough turrets to defend production and mineral lines.
sorry but i've been put against REALLY muta HEAVY builds before.. im talking up to 20-30 mutas
and the amount of thors i have around 6-8 cant do anything against it especially with magic boxing
and the harass potential from the mutas is so strong that if i pretty much leave my base i have to all in
so how do you deal with a ridiculous amount of mutas?
If you're really have 20 mutas vs 6 thors or 30 mutas vs 8 thors, the thors should win, or your upgrades are way behind or something else.
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On August 16 2011 04:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 03:08 Bonkerz wrote:On August 16 2011 03:02 statikg wrote:On August 16 2011 02:58 Bonkerz wrote:On August 16 2011 02:39 statikg wrote:
Before you cry from Link0's GMness be aware that he is the strategy forums resident basher of anything not standard. That said Link0 has definitely pointed out one of the most difficult aspects of playing mech as T.
How do you deal with mass roaches with some mutas to distract the thors? The obvious answer is more tanks, but if you get more tanks, you risk a big switch into heavy magic box mutas that may overwhelm you (I have suffered many losses from this).
I am thinking that the answer (if there is one) to this problem probably lies with ghosts. Ghosts synergize into mech against zerg extremely well. They do well against mutas, and against a few thors zerg will have to magic box, removing any opportunity for focusing down your ghosts before you can snipe down all those mutas. They also really help with the infestor problem and can even deal with broods if you have enough energy. It is also helpeful that mech play has relatively little apm intensive action, so you will be free to concentrate on sniping.
I think that this type of ghost/mech play is currently pretty unexplored and it may solve the problems that many pros think makes mech unavailable in TvZ. Yeah I understand that he is GM, I just have an issue with "blueflame hellions do damage or mech isnt viable", it's a narrowminded attitude. Lategame tvz mech with 10+ ghost is insane strong. The thing is how do we use ghosts to help with this mid-mid/late game roach problem? In my mind it works something like, cut down on thors signficiantly, use the extra gas to increase tanks and get ghosts who mixed with 1-2 thors will be sufficient to pretty much insta gib the mutas freeing up the thors to shoot roaches and any remaining energy can help by sniping roaches as well. (be sure to brush up on your snipe micro) The difficult question is when do we NEED to add ghosts to deal with this issue? I still havn't seen this comp that is actually deadly, I'm running some practice games atm tho, so we'll see what happens. Is this an allin from zerg? Ghosts can deal with Infestors and help against Neural, so that means you can get more Thors instead of the gas intensive Tanks (otherwise you would dump your minerals into hellions which don't help much). Because of this reasoning, I'm gonna try getting ghosts much earlier :D Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 00:26 Logick wrote:
Really Heavy Muta
[spoiler]Going super heavy muta really doesnt leave much gas leftover for anything but lings, So sit on your ass until you get a good amount of thors and hellions and push out and kill his third. Make sure you have enough turrets to defend production and mineral lines.
sorry but i've been put against REALLY muta HEAVY builds before.. im talking up to 20-30 mutas
and the amount of thors i have around 6-8 cant do anything against it especially with magic boxing
and the harass potential from the mutas is so strong that if i pretty much leave my base i have to all in
so how do you deal with a ridiculous amount of mutas? If you're really have 20 mutas vs 6 thors or 30 mutas vs 8 thors, the thors should win, or your upgrades are way behind or something else.
^^True story, upgraded 4+ thors do well against muta and again ghost + viking that late in game.
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hmmm, can't you just kind of slowpush if you must with thor tank to take a third, of course thats map dependant, but I just feel like saying HELLIONS MUST DO Damage or insta gg isn't true. While it is true that you are vulnerable to air until you get your thor/viking/ghost count up you can do slow push with turret and thor and tank and take third no?
No, he's right. Mech relies soley on the hellion harass, or else, as he said roach muta will face roll you.
so how do you deal with a ridiculous amount of mutas?
Sorry to derail. Get 2-4 thors, max. Then just use marines. 3/3 marines eat up fucking mutas, regardless. They HAVE to target tanks or thors, they can't target marines or they run the risk of clumping and thors unmagic box and fuck them up hardcore.
Trust me, it works. Open with roaches to stop BFH harass. Then add mutas (if you scout a pure hellion thor, then make only 6-8 max, if you scout hellion tank thor, then mass as many mutas as you possibly can).
You will not lose to any Mech terran players of your same skill level doing this.
Again, zergs, listen to him. Without marines, the thors have to physically target every...single...fucking...roach.
If they go tank heavy, abuse infested terran egg spawns, and abuse NP and flanks etc.
Between Ghost snipes, thors and viking you should be able to handle it.
...Think about that unit composition. What happens when the zerg does tech switches on you? Sling bling infestor BL into roach infestor to sling ultra infestor etc and just keeps bouncing around...? Ghost thor viking is just the absolute slowest, most cost intensive combo you can ask for. Easily killed, and abused by some solid infestor usage.
I mean tanks and thors, I think Linko is talking about some specific timing before i get my third up, in which case it does sound scary, what i would suggest is missle turrets and slowpush to secure your third with tanks and thors and Tureets because as stated above you should have tons of minerals when doing this build
It would be about the time zergs gets 3 base + lair after hellion harass, so well before your third. Hence you'd be pinned to just hellion harasses, and what not, as mutas will keep you pinned and defensive. You'll have to slow push to a third, as opposed to just defend a third and spring board off of it.
Yeah I understand that he is GM, I just have an issue with "blueflame hellions do damage or mech isnt viable", it's a narrowminded attitude. Lategame tvz mech with 10+ ghost is insane strong.
Well, to be honest chris, you haven't really sunken your teeth into any really GOOD zergs. The zergs that just plain make you cry. The ones that won't let you get to the late game safely, and effectively. Mech does rely on hellion harass, very very true and not narrowminded. If zerg gets 3 base and 70 drones safely with little harass damage, you're fucked. He can make a macro hatch or two, and thats 4-5 hatches of units constantly being spawned. Trading with a zerg in this situation is suicide, and you will lose.
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On August 16 2011 05:04 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +hmmm, can't you just kind of slowpush if you must with thor tank to take a third, of course thats map dependant, but I just feel like saying HELLIONS MUST DO Damage or insta gg isn't true. While it is true that you are vulnerable to air until you get your thor/viking/ghost count up you can do slow push with turret and thor and tank and take third no?
No, he's right. Mech relies soley on the hellion harass, or else, as he said roach muta will face roll you. Sorry to derail. Get 2-4 thors, max. Then just use marines. 3/3 marines eat up fucking mutas, regardless. They HAVE to target tanks or thors, they can't target marines or they run the risk of clumping and thors unmagic box and fuck them up hardcore. Show nested quote +
Trust me, it works. Open with roaches to stop BFH harass. Then add mutas (if you scout a pure hellion thor, then make only 6-8 max, if you scout hellion tank thor, then mass as many mutas as you possibly can).
You will not lose to any Mech terran players of your same skill level doing this.
Again, zergs, listen to him. Without marines, the thors have to physically target every...single...fucking...roach. If they go tank heavy, abuse infested terran egg spawns, and abuse NP and flanks etc. ...Think about that unit composition. What happens when the zerg does tech switches on you? Sling bling infestor BL into roach infestor to sling ultra infestor etc and just keeps bouncing around...? Ghost thor viking is just the absolute slowest, most cost intensive combo you can ask for. Easily killed, and abused by some solid infestor usage. Show nested quote +I mean tanks and thors, I think Linko is talking about some specific timing before i get my third up, in which case it does sound scary, what i would suggest is missle turrets and slowpush to secure your third with tanks and thors and Tureets because as stated above you should have tons of minerals when doing this build
It would be about the time zergs gets 3 base + lair after hellion harass, so well before your third. Hence you'd be pinned to just hellion harasses, and what not, as mutas will keep you pinned and defensive. You'll have to slow push to a third, as opposed to just defend a third and spring board off of it. Show nested quote +Yeah I understand that he is GM, I just have an issue with "blueflame hellions do damage or mech isnt viable", it's a narrowminded attitude. Lategame tvz mech with 10+ ghost is insane strong. Well, to be honest chris, you haven't really sunken your teeth into any really GOOD zergs. The zergs that just plain make you cry. The ones that won't let you get to the late game safely, and effectively. Mech does rely on hellion harass, very very true and not narrowminded. If zerg gets 3 base and 70 drones safely with little harass damage, you're fucked. He can make a macro hatch or two, and thats 4-5 hatches of units constantly being spawned. Trading with a zerg in this situation is suicide, and you will lose.
Just keep in mind that before the zerg can tech switch, he will have to lose his army first, in late game situations. BLs take a long time to get out, so you will have a minute or so to kill a couple bases or possibly even just rape his main and all his important building.
Ghost thor vikings can deal with sling bling BL infestor, btw... vikings kill the BLs, ghosts deal with the infestors, and ghost+thor should be OK. You can quickly reinforce with Hellions if you scout such a tech switch, which rape ling/bling, or should already have a few out. You can even add in some tanks. But that is so much gas for the zerg, there is no way he can win with all those useless zerglings. Really, a few blue flame hellions just negates any number of zerglings as long as you're not on creep or get fungal'd. Until the very lategame, a zerg won't have +3/+3 for his zerglings, while your Thors will have 3/3, which is very strong, since the zerg has so many upgrades to get (melee, range, armor, air attack, air armor).
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As the zerg who played the practice games against bonkerz I can contribute what I noticed as a zerg going up against this strategy.
Some disclaimers: I knew what build bonkerz planned to do. So my response to it was obviously much better than it would be if I didnt know what I was up against. My early game setup was based around dealing with quick hellions. Obviously, as I went straight into roach skipping ling speed. I feel thats worth mentioning as It made dealing with the build much easier than it normally would be. Also I got awfully lucky killing the third with my mutalisks. If I wasnt able to shut that base down the game would have looked much different. Now to my thoughts on this strategy as a zerg whos gone up against it.
I'll start by saying link0 was right. roach mutalisk is the proper response to this playstyle. But I can guarantee most zergs will not respond in that manner. That composition from zerg is completely counter intuitive. Most hellion openings tend to fall back onto a more standard marine tank centric play, with drops and blue flames mixed in. So even if most zergs respond correctly early game with roaches they will most likely transition into more familiar builds in the midgame. Which this build can deal with handily.
However, a build should not rely on your opponent responding with the wrong unit composition, so for the sake of consistency i'll discuss fighting this with roach mutas. You can see from the replay fighting this Terran army head on is nearly impossible. If the tanks are sieged well and protected by thors, turrets and a few marines, running into this would be suicide. Thats the real strength to mech play. Most zergs know roaches are shit when pit against upgraded tanks, So counters, and good mutalisk control become essential to winning.
So with all that in mind I want to mention a few things the Terran can do to limit the zergs options. As bonkerz mentioned you'll have extra minerals. Build turrets on your side of the map. If the zerg must weave through thors and turrets mutalisks become a less appealing option. If however you find yourself with a thor heavy composition, you have to prepare for the roach pressure. Going against this mech composition its clear you can do one of two things when attacking. Use your mutalisks to pick off easy targets, or barrel down an expansion with roaches. Figure out what the zerg plans to do with their army and stopping it will be easier. There ends up being this ping pong effect. "Ok hes got a lot of thors over here and the tanks are spread thin, time for roaches, He's consolidated the tanks so now I should focus on having mutalisks to stop the push". You get the idea.
Other things to consider,
supply depot walls at vulnerable expo back doors are a good idea to give you a few extra moments to respond to a counter. Be ready to pop a raven out if the Z is roach heavy. If the zerg spreads himself thin with expos pump some blue flame hellions out. Extra command centers are a must. It's a great mineral sink, and chances are good you'll need to replace expos anyway. Forgive me if this next suggestion is dumb(remember I play zerg) the missile turret/PF range upgrade and armor upgrade seem worthwhile here, since you wont be getting infantry upgrades anyway. And if you have a lot of money late game, PF's at chokes can be very obnoxious. Make sure you clear overlords off your side of the map constantly, and turret ring vulnerable nydus locations. And finally another suggestion that might be stupid but just an idea I have, a few dropships to transport those slow thors could be well worth the investment.
Thats all I got for now. If this style catches on I'll do a write up for zerg on dealing with it. Good luck all.
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On August 16 2011 05:29 Sporadic44 wrote:
As the zerg who played the practice games against bonkerz I can contribute what I noticed as a zerg going up against this strategy.
Some disclaimers: I knew what build bonkerz planned to do. So my response to it was obviously much better than it would be if I didnt know what I was up against. My early game setup was based around dealing with quick hellions. Obviously, as I went straight into roach skipping ling speed. I feel thats worth mentioning as It made dealing with the build much easier than it normally would be. Also I got awfully lucky killing the third with my mutalisks. If I wasnt able to shut that base down the game would have looked much different. Now to my thoughts on this strategy as a zerg whos gone up against it.
I'll start by saying link0 was right. roach mutalisk is the proper response to this playstyle. But I can guarantee most zergs will not respond in that manner. That composition from zerg is completely counter intuitive. Most hellion openings tend to fall back onto a more standard marine tank centric play, with drops and blue flames mixed in. So even if most zergs respond correctly early game with roaches they will most likely transition into more familiar builds in the midgame. Which this build can deal with handily.
However, a build should not rely on your opponent responding with the wrong unit composition, so for the sake of consistency i'll discuss fighting this with roach mutas. You can see from the replay fighting this Terran army head on is nearly impossible. If the tanks are sieged well and protected by thors, turrets and a few marines, running into this would be suicide. Thats the real strength to mech play. Most zergs know roaches are shit when pit against upgraded tanks, So counters, and good mutalisk control become essential to winning.
So with all that in mind I want to mention a few things the Terran can do to limit the zergs options. As bonkerz mentioned you'll have extra minerals. Build turrets on your side of the map. If the zerg must weave through thors and turrets mutalisks become a less appealing option. If however you find yourself with a thor heavy composition, you have to prepare for the roach pressure. Going against this mech composition its clear you can do one of two things when attacking. Use your mutalisks to pick off easy targets, or barrel down an expansion with roaches. Figure out what the zerg plans to do with their army and stopping it will be easier. There ends up being this ping pong effect. "Ok hes got a lot of thors over here and the tanks are spread thin, time for roaches, He's consolidated the tanks so now I should focus on having mutalisks to stop the push". You get the idea.
Other things to consider,
supply depot walls at vulnerable expo back doors are a good idea to give you a few extra moments to respond to a counter. Be ready to pop a raven out if the Z is roach heavy. If the zerg spreads himself thin with expos pump some blue flame hellions out. Extra command centers are a must. It's a great mineral sink, and chances are good you'll need to replace expos anyway. Forgive me if this next suggestion is dumb(remember I play zerg) the missile turret/PF range upgrade and armor upgrade seem worthwhile here, since you wont be getting infantry upgrades anyway. And if you have a lot of money late game, PF's at chokes can be very obnoxious. Make sure you clear overlords off your side of the map constantly, and turret ring vulnerable nydus locations. And finally another suggestion that might be stupid but just an idea I have, a few dropships to transport those slow thors could be well worth the investment.
Thats all I got for now. If this style catches on I'll do a write up for zerg on dealing with it. Good luck all.
Thanks for your input.
Actually, I've been wondering.
I think mech might need to be much more patience and defensive than most people including me play it. Mech should be a slow push, not play aggressive like marine/tank but simply with a mech composition.
I think it's pretty hard though, to learn this turtle mech style. Trial and error will work of course but because it is so different, it can make you/me uncomfortable.
I think building a few barracks to lift around to help make artificial chokes and make PFs and turrets to secure half the map is essential, so that he cannot out expo you. From there Terran should win because since Zerg naturally is less resource efficient than Terran especially against turtle heavy mech. I think future mech strategies will need to rely on this goal/strategy, instead of just maxing out on 200 and then attacking like a PvZ deathball strategy.
But because of this, I think it will be pretty map dependent, so hopefully future maps will take in consideration of more rare styles like mech. Unfortunately tanks are now 3 food instead of 2, so I hope that it will not be too much of a detriment to mech, or else it would be a shame. At least you can start replacing SCVs lategame with OCs and Mules instead, I guess. I'm thinking this style would rely heavily on Tanks and Turrets and PFs and sensor towers, sort of like how TvT (Boxer vs Rain or Maka vs Dream)
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Nice Guide, really like ya writing style, biatch 
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Sweden33719 Posts
No, he's right. Mech relies soley on the hellion harass, or else, as he said roach muta will face roll you.
Its a little bit true I guess, but I think TvZ is that way always - you either do SOMETHING to him or you can just forget about winning.
I disagree about the need for it being a completely crippling blow tho, I think on a lot of maps (the ones you should consider going mech on), T can force a pretty favorable late game split map. I.E dont try this shit on Tal'darim, but Shakuras isnt so bad.
Mech is like that in every matchup sadly, going from very obviously so (mech against protoss lol), to the less obvious (TvT vs bio, tvt vs bio tank, tvz).
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On August 16 2011 06:29 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +No, he's right. Mech relies soley on the hellion harass, or else, as he said roach muta will face roll you.
Its a little bit true I guess, but I think TvZ is that way always - you either do SOMETHING to him or you can just forget about winning. I disagree about the need for it being a completely crippling blow tho, I think on a lot of maps (the ones you should consider going mech on), T can force a pretty favorable late game split map. I.E dont try this shit on Tal'darim, but Shakuras isnt so bad.
Jinro you just made me feel so smart! I was thinking this earlier after reading peoples comments. What you say is true. Anything from tech heavy one base builds with a late expand, The big tank marine timing after a two rax, or drop centric play. The terran always needs to get some damage in on the zerg in the mid-game to have any sort of reasonable position in the late game. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. Much respect
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On August 16 2011 06:29 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +No, he's right. Mech relies soley on the hellion harass, or else, as he said roach muta will face roll you.
Its a little bit true I guess, but I think TvZ is that way always - you either do SOMETHING to him or you can just forget about winning. I disagree about the need for it being a completely crippling blow tho, I think on a lot of maps (the ones you should consider going mech on), T can force a pretty favorable late game split map. I.E dont try this shit on Tal'darim, but Shakuras isnt so bad. Mech is like that in every matchup sadly, going from very obviously so (mech against protoss lol), to the less obvious (TvT vs bio, tvt vs bio tank, tvz).
Wow, Jinro always so active within the community!
When you say "mech is like that" are you talking about how Terran can (and should) force a split map? Because I haven't seen any Terrans doing that in TvP which you say is "obvious" 
Thx in advance!
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On August 16 2011 06:29 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +No, he's right. Mech relies soley on the hellion harass, or else, as he said roach muta will face roll you.
Its a little bit true I guess, but I think TvZ is that way always - you either do SOMETHING to him or you can just forget about winning. I disagree about the need for it being a completely crippling blow tho, I think on a lot of maps (the ones you should consider going mech on), T can force a pretty favorable late game split map. I.E dont try this shit on Tal'darim, but Shakuras isnt so bad. Mech is like that in every matchup sadly, going from very obviously so (mech against protoss lol), to the less obvious (TvT vs bio, tvt vs bio tank, tvz).
Holy Shit Jinrooooooooo, but yeah i guess, I mean pressure needs applied, but I just couldn't get it through my head that you HAD to do damage. Thanks for taking the time to post man, means a lot.
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On August 15 2011 09:50 fuzzytoad wrote:
I play this style quite a lot on the ladder (mid-master as well), and as zerg, I feel like it pretty much hinges on the blue flame hellion harrass.
If you can't do enough damage with the blue flame hellion I will scout base with my first 8 mutas and then instantly switch to infestors, picking up NP as well. I'll look for turrets being put up and if I feel like there aren't enough I'll just flood mass muta and magic box them over your thors for the win. If you do get the turrets in time/in the right position/amount, I'll just use the mutas for map control against your hellions while getting the infestors. The timing works out to around when you move out so I'll have like 5-6 infestors with mass lings and around 8-12 mutas against the mech army.
I'll also be taking bases 4 and 5 here as well.
Basically before the engagement I will wait for the "hellion poke" to land a fungal, and from there its pretty much over since you will have no answer for my lings. During the engagement I'll NP your thors as well and magic box my mutas over them.
I think typically around this timing your army composition is something like 15 hellions, 6-8 thors, 0-2 tanks, depending on whether or not you get tanks or thors.
Anyways I have no problem holding and from there I'll just have brood lords and win.
This kind of post makes me laugh. I think my shit is better then your shit and here is the scenario where I pwn you. What if he doesn't throw away his hellions. What if your control isn't so spot on and you lose a bunch of drones. What if in the engagment he target fires your infesters with his tanks. And not many meching players push put with less then 4 or 5 tanks because they know infestors will rape them.
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On August 17 2011 03:14 FluidKMC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 09:50 fuzzytoad wrote:
I play this style quite a lot on the ladder (mid-master as well), and as zerg, I feel like it pretty much hinges on the blue flame hellion harrass.
If you can't do enough damage with the blue flame hellion I will scout base with my first 8 mutas and then instantly switch to infestors, picking up NP as well. I'll look for turrets being put up and if I feel like there aren't enough I'll just flood mass muta and magic box them over your thors for the win. If you do get the turrets in time/in the right position/amount, I'll just use the mutas for map control against your hellions while getting the infestors. The timing works out to around when you move out so I'll have like 5-6 infestors with mass lings and around 8-12 mutas against the mech army.
I'll also be taking bases 4 and 5 here as well.
Basically before the engagement I will wait for the "hellion poke" to land a fungal, and from there its pretty much over since you will have no answer for my lings. During the engagement I'll NP your thors as well and magic box my mutas over them.
I think typically around this timing your army composition is something like 15 hellions, 6-8 thors, 0-2 tanks, depending on whether or not you get tanks or thors.
Anyways I have no problem holding and from there I'll just have brood lords and win.
It seems like he's saying mech isnt viable, which we all know is a lie. The viability of mech isnt in question. You saying that when you outplay your opponent you win, is kind of a dumb thing to say. This kind of post makes me laugh. I think my shit is better then your shit and here is the scenario where I pwn you. What if he doesn't throw away his hellions. What if your control isn't so spot on and you lose a bunch of drones. What if in the engagment he target fires your infesters with his tanks. And not many meching players push put with less then 4 or 5 tanks because they know infestors will rape them.
This kind of post is funny, He's questioning the viability of mech, which is just absurd. Additionally just talking about when he outmicro/macro's his opponent he wins... Herp Derp.
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EPT
