|
Hi all, I'm EnVBonkerz and I'm a mid master Terran Player on the NA Server. I've been leeching off these forums for around a year now and I felt that it's about my time to give back. Currently, I feel that my TvZ is extremely strong, so, I'll share with everyone what I've been doing!
General Thought Process
+ Show Spoiler +Mech vs Zerg can be extremely strong, if it fits to your style. With this style you can't be trading armies with the zerg constantly, because 90% of the time it will be more cost efficient for the zerg and the zerg can reinforce faster than you can rebuild factory units. So slow pushing and taking expo's is how to win with this style, along with relentless Blueflame hellion harrass.
General Build Order (Supply isn't consistent, so just take into account which order to build things in.)
+ Show Spoiler +10 Depot (constant depot + scv)
12 Rax (Constant production till 5 marines)
13 Gas
15 Oc
16 depot (Finish Wall)
(supply Discontinued)
Factory (After Depot is finished)
Hellion Asap
Command Center (inbase)
5 Marine Hellion Poke at Zerg Nat (kill ovies and queens, and possibly drones)
Reactor On Rax (build Marines)
Tech lab on Factory
2nd Gas
2nd Factory
Build Chuck From Factory (Read Description Below)
Opening BO Over.
The 5 Marine Hellion Push (What should I be looking for?)
+ Show Spoiler +The marine hellion push is used to kill shit and to get INTEL
You want to look to see if the zerg is getting gas, or if his speed is late, how many queens he has, how many spines he has. (High Spine/Queen usually= spanishiwa stlye build)
Who is Chuck?????
+ Show Spoiler +Chuck is a roach killer. He is my OSHITROACHES tank, and he wins games. Currently a lot of masters zergs are doing this like 5-7 roach pressure into expo semiallin, and chuck prevents them from actually being able to win right then and there, and you are usually ahead in that situation because you already have your expansion up. CLARIFICATION He is a siege tank.
Losing at 10 Minutes
+ Show Spoiler +Don't get caught with your pants down about muta, its like instaloss unless you got enough marines. I rage when this happens.
Midgame and Scouting / Counters
+ Show Spoiler +After you have chuck out, you can start blueflame and start pumping hellions. Get a techlab on your 2nd factory OR Put your 2nd Factory on the reactor and start pumping hellions. This all depends on what you scout. Usually I have 3 factories(2 tech 1 reactor) and 1 starport on 1 base. (My 4th factory is usually in production when 3rd going up) MAKE SURE YOU SCAN TO SEE WHAT LAIR TECH HE IS DOINGI see X what do I do?Spanishiwa Style+ Show Spoiler +Okay so use your hellions to scout for a really fast third from him, if you see the fast third, get a third up of your own, and do a push with tanks hellions and marines, you can win right there. He might have slow lings depending on timing, be careful tho, if he sacc'd drones and is semiallin, if you lose your whole army you are in deep shit. SCOUT Usually Roach leads into infestor but occasionally they will go muta (with no thors or turrets your boned) Be weary of burrow (RAVEN), Make sure you have a sufficient amount of tanks (thors are good to use as damage takers.) These are the things that make us mech terrans shiver in our boots, make sure you throw down a ghost acadamy asap, and have atleast 2 barrack with tech labs pumping ghost (if 3+ base get around 4-6 rax for ghost) When Pushing go slow, getting fungaled not in siege is insta loss. Get some hellions, Infestors are usually on the way if you see no banelings, make sure to check ling upgrades, make sure you are working on your mech upgrades, Upgraded tanks/hellions wreck zerglings. Be happy, you are hardcountering this, just get a perfect amount of thor hellion tank, Make sure you have enough thors to kill his muta, get upgrades quick for thors. Additionally make sure that your hellions dont get hit by banes.
Going super heavy muta really doesnt leave much gas leftover for anything but lings, So sit on your ass until you get a good amount of thors and hellions and push out and kill his third. Make sure you have enough turrets to defend production and mineral lines. GET THESE UPGRADES+ Show Spoiler +Getting Building armor + hi sec autotracking really helps against heavy muta Ummm not sure if there is much else here :-) Hydras+ Show Spoiler +
Lategame/ Hivetech
+ Show Spoiler +Lategame+ Show Spoiler +You want to have half the map, essentially you should be feeling really comfterable, make sure you build extra OC's for mules and scans, and Have lots of production, Just keep Slowpushing, Make sure you have a decent ghost count 10+ (and 3+ starports with reactors) Additionally you need like 3 or 4 Sensor towers SPLIT THE MAP, The zerg will try doing all sorts of things, drops, and nydus's make sure he can't. LEave 1 tank in your main to protect production. If you lose shit in your main its annoying as fuck When you see hivetech suspect Greater Spire (BL's) that is the usual response Ghosts Vikings and Upgraded Thor/Hellion will rape this, Just make sure you have the GHOST COUNT
If you see ultra, thors and tanks + ghost snipes will be sufficient no need for vikings.
Replays:
+ Show Spoiler +
Little things that are fun to do / extra info:
+ Show Spoiler +Viking+ Show Spoiler +I usually go 2 factory > Starport > 3rd factory, with the first thing comming out of the starport get a viking to scout and kill OL's around the Map. Getting Cloaked banshees out does really well against infestor builds, just make them waste fungals and energy trying to kill them (Make sure your shit is split up) Lategame you have 10+ ghosts tossing down like 1 or 2 more acadamies and getting nukes are fun, and can do pretty good damage on hatches and Send them everywhere if there is no drones there USE THEM TO KILL LARVAE
killing all of the zergs larvae can win games. Upgraded mech rapes shit.
In my opinion how the zerg counters this build lategame (It ain't easy)
+ Show Spoiler +Zergs beat this by not engaging, they will try nydus's and drops. Additionally after a major battle make sure you have enough like turrets to defent against a 200/200 muta switch which is quite common. Stay safe from all of the gimmiky shit zerg will do, Nydus and Drops leave 1 tank in main and use sensor towers and turrets to defend your production and mining bases.
My Request / Disclaimer
+ Show Spoiler +This is my first write up, and I am by no means a PRO player or even relatively close to being one, please if you comment compliments or constructive criticism please, be a lover not a hater :-) I took a lot of time to write this up, please respect my wishes. Btw If i lose I usually BM sorry.
Credits
+ Show Spoiler +
Thanks all, and please check out my stream here on TL STREAM
Bonkerz
P.S. If I forgot something here let me know, additionally I'll upload more replays when i get them, currently those two are all I have. Again, my play isn't at pro level, so if you wanna see that, look for the Catz vs. Thorizan game on shakuras, Thorizan does it extremely well.
EDIT: Clarified Lategame and How Zerg Counters this.
|
Take this down immediately!!!! Terran doesn't mech doesn't need any help! and, i swear, it sucks.
really, for the sake of zergs everywhere. Good basic guide, i really don't want anyone learning from this :D
|
I play this style quite a lot on the ladder (mid-master as well), and as zerg, I feel like it pretty much hinges on the blue flame hellion harrass.
If you can't do enough damage with the blue flame hellion I will scout base with my first 8 mutas and then instantly switch to infestors, picking up NP as well. I'll look for turrets being put up and if I feel like there aren't enough I'll just flood mass muta and magic box them over your thors for the win. If you do get the turrets in time/in the right position/amount, I'll just use the mutas for map control against your hellions while getting the infestors. The timing works out to around when you move out so I'll have like 5-6 infestors with mass lings and around 8-12 mutas against the mech army.
I'll also be taking bases 4 and 5 here as well.
Basically before the engagement I will wait for the "hellion poke" to land a fungal, and from there its pretty much over since you will have no answer for my lings. During the engagement I'll NP your thors as well and magic box my mutas over them.
I think typically around this timing your army composition is something like 15 hellions, 6-8 thors, 0-2 tanks, depending on whether or not you get tanks or thors.
Anyways I have no problem holding and from there I'll just have brood lords and win.
|
On August 15 2011 09:50 fuzzytoad wrote:
I play this style quite a lot on the ladder (mid-master as well), and as zerg, I feel like it pretty much hinges on the blue flame hellion harrass.
If you can't do enough damage with the blue flame hellion I will scout base with my first 8 mutas and then instantly switch to infestors, picking up NP as well. I'll look for turrets being put up and if I feel like there aren't enough I'll just flood mass muta and magic box them over your thors for the win. If you do get the turrets in time/in the right position/amount, I'll just use the mutas for map control against your hellions while getting the infestors. The timing works out to around when you move out so I'll have like 5-6 infestors with mass lings and around 8-12 mutas against the mech army.
I'll also be taking bases 4 and 5 here as well.
Basically before the engagement I will wait for the "hellion poke" to land a fungal, and from there its pretty much over since you will have no answer for my lings. During the engagement I'll NP your thors as well and magic box my mutas over them.
I think typically around this timing your army composition is something like 15 hellions, 6-8 thors, 0-2 tanks, depending on whether or not you get tanks or thors.
Anyways I have no problem holding and from there I'll just have brood lords and win.
Only 2 tanks lategame? Lol?
|
On August 15 2011 09:54 Bonkerz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 09:50 fuzzytoad wrote:
I play this style quite a lot on the ladder (mid-master as well), and as zerg, I feel like it pretty much hinges on the blue flame hellion harrass.
If you can't do enough damage with the blue flame hellion I will scout base with my first 8 mutas and then instantly switch to infestors, picking up NP as well. I'll look for turrets being put up and if I feel like there aren't enough I'll just flood mass muta and magic box them over your thors for the win. If you do get the turrets in time/in the right position/amount, I'll just use the mutas for map control against your hellions while getting the infestors. The timing works out to around when you move out so I'll have like 5-6 infestors with mass lings and around 8-12 mutas against the mech army.
I'll also be taking bases 4 and 5 here as well.
Basically before the engagement I will wait for the "hellion poke" to land a fungal, and from there its pretty much over since you will have no answer for my lings. During the engagement I'll NP your thors as well and magic box my mutas over them.
I think typically around this timing your army composition is something like 15 hellions, 6-8 thors, 0-2 tanks, depending on whether or not you get tanks or thors.
Anyways I have no problem holding and from there I'll just have brood lords and win.
Only 2 tanks lategame? Lol?
Well, if you cut tank production for reactor hellions and double Thor production... Yeah... Sounds about right... But it's not really lategame... It's like midgame/end of midgame timing. Late game is when Zerg has Broodlord+Infestors and Terran should have 3-4 bases and near max army (after several engagements, so this relies on how well Terran retains his army).
|
On August 15 2011 10:00 RyLai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 09:54 Bonkerz wrote:On August 15 2011 09:50 fuzzytoad wrote:
I play this style quite a lot on the ladder (mid-master as well), and as zerg, I feel like it pretty much hinges on the blue flame hellion harrass.
If you can't do enough damage with the blue flame hellion I will scout base with my first 8 mutas and then instantly switch to infestors, picking up NP as well. I'll look for turrets being put up and if I feel like there aren't enough I'll just flood mass muta and magic box them over your thors for the win. If you do get the turrets in time/in the right position/amount, I'll just use the mutas for map control against your hellions while getting the infestors. The timing works out to around when you move out so I'll have like 5-6 infestors with mass lings and around 8-12 mutas against the mech army.
I'll also be taking bases 4 and 5 here as well.
Basically before the engagement I will wait for the "hellion poke" to land a fungal, and from there its pretty much over since you will have no answer for my lings. During the engagement I'll NP your thors as well and magic box my mutas over them.
I think typically around this timing your army composition is something like 15 hellions, 6-8 thors, 0-2 tanks, depending on whether or not you get tanks or thors.
Anyways I have no problem holding and from there I'll just have brood lords and win.
Only 2 tanks lategame? Lol? Well, if you cut tank production for reactor hellions and double Thor production... Yeah... Sounds about right... But it's not really lategame... It's like midgame/end of midgame timing. Late game is when Zerg has Broodlord+Infestors and Terran should have 3-4 bases and near max army (after several engagements, so this relies on how well Terran retains his army).
Terran really shouldnt lose his army unless killing a third, going mech is all about getting expos and taking your half of the map and 2 thor production why? Unless going really really heavy muta, duh your catching the terran with his pants down, you need to have constant scouting in order to execute this build correctly, having the wrong unit compisition is like a herp derp offence.
|
Nice guide!
Btw thought you were familiar, haha.
I would just like to share, what I currently do (it's not working well) is get just a few tanks for Infestors in the midgame, like even 2 is enough to stop Neural, and then when I see Brood Lords, I pump ghosts from my 2 rax (i open 2 rax into mech). I don't get Vikings at all.
Maybe it's just the micro that I have trouble with, but because (correct me if I'm wrong) you cannot stop your tanks from attacking while sieged by spamming "Stop", tanks can't deal with Infestors, so that you need Ghosts to deal with the Infestors. Now if I get Vikings too, usually he has some corruptors or they just get fungal'd or such, so the Vikings don't do too much... sometimes I use my thors to help target the corruptors to keep them away, but usually there is a big roach army too, that I need my thors to be firing at. This leaves the Broodlords to be basically safe.
Now, maybe other people's experiences differ, and I would like to hear them. But when I see pro TvZ games too where they go Mech, I see this problem. So now I don't get Vikings, I just get Ghosts only since they can snipe Broodlords or just stay invisible and attack them.
But because pro terrans still get vikings in mech, and seem to always lose to the situation I described, I wonder why they still get Vikings. Are the pros simply just wrong? Were there other factors in the game that caused them to go Vikings? Maybe they guessed wrong, or were trying to mindgame, or were mindgamed, or something. But I don't see a reason to bring the fight to the air, where he could just mass Corruptors, which won't be wasted since he can just turn them into BroodLords later, and Thors don't kill Corruptors very fast.
Anyways, since Ghosts can deal with Infestors, like your guide says (you actually get Ghosts a lot earlier than me, I resort to tanks first), I've been wanting to try that, to basically skip tanks all together, which also helps with Broodlord tech since you don't always know when it will come and storing up energy on ghosts before hand is really helpful, and because Ghosts are a lot less gas intensive than Tanks (more thors yay).
So, thoughts on vikings? 
|
On August 15 2011 10:25 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Nice guide! Btw thought you were familiar, haha. I would just like to share, what I currently do (it's not working well) is get just a few tanks for Infestors in the midgame, like even 2 is enough to stop Neural, and then when I see Brood Lords, I pump ghosts from my 2 rax (i open 2 rax into mech). I don't get Vikings at all. Maybe it's just the micro that I have trouble with, but because (correct me if I'm wrong) you cannot stop your tanks from attacking while sieged by spamming "Stop", tanks can't deal with Infestors, so that you need Ghosts to deal with the Infestors. Now if I get Vikings too, usually he has some corruptors or they just get fungal'd or such, so the Vikings don't do too much... sometimes I use my thors to help target the corruptors to keep them away, but usually there is a big roach army too, that I need my thors to be firing at. This leaves the Broodlords to be basically safe. Now, maybe other people's experiences differ, and I would like to hear them. But when I see pro TvZ games too where they go Mech, I see this problem. So now I don't get Vikings, I just get Ghosts only since they can snipe Broodlords or just stay invisible and attack them. But because pro terrans still get vikings in mech, and seem to always lose to the situation I described, I wonder why they still get Vikings. Are the pros simply just wrong? Were there other factors in the game that caused them to go Vikings? Maybe they guessed wrong, or were trying to mindgame, or were mindgamed, or something. But I don't see a reason to bring the fight to the air, where he could just mass Corruptors, which won't be wasted since he can just turn them into BroodLords later, and Thors don't kill Corruptors very fast. Anyways, since Ghosts can deal with Infestors, like your guide says (you actually get Ghosts a lot earlier than me, I resort to tanks first), I've been wanting to try that, to basically skip tanks all together, which also helps with Broodlord tech since you don't always know when it will come and storing up energy on ghosts before hand is really helpful, and because Ghosts are a lot less gas intensive than Tanks (more thors yay). So, thoughts on vikings?
EDIT: SOrry missed kinda your post, thats why you get 3 reactored ports, 6 vikings at a time + getting air upgrades is pretty good, + thor splash and snipe you should always be in decent shape, 3/3 thors do decent against zerg air.
|
Chuck must be a baller. I usually open siege chuck though, so i have several more chucks than your chuck could chuck at any given chuck.
|
Thanks for this guide it is awesome, I suck so hard at TvZ and im hoping your mech style will be something that can help me. I especially struggle with mutaling/bling and this style is perfectly catered to that.
|
lol good guide but if there's just a very small paragraph of words do you really need a spoiler within a spoiler?!
|
On August 15 2011 10:26 Bonkerz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 10:25 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Nice guide! Btw thought you were familiar, haha. I would just like to share, what I currently do (it's not working well) is get just a few tanks for Infestors in the midgame, like even 2 is enough to stop Neural, and then when I see Brood Lords, I pump ghosts from my 2 rax (i open 2 rax into mech). I don't get Vikings at all. Maybe it's just the micro that I have trouble with, but because (correct me if I'm wrong) you cannot stop your tanks from attacking while sieged by spamming "Stop", tanks can't deal with Infestors, so that you need Ghosts to deal with the Infestors. Now if I get Vikings too, usually he has some corruptors or they just get fungal'd or such, so the Vikings don't do too much... sometimes I use my thors to help target the corruptors to keep them away, but usually there is a big roach army too, that I need my thors to be firing at. This leaves the Broodlords to be basically safe. Now, maybe other people's experiences differ, and I would like to hear them. But when I see pro TvZ games too where they go Mech, I see this problem. So now I don't get Vikings, I just get Ghosts only since they can snipe Broodlords or just stay invisible and attack them. But because pro terrans still get vikings in mech, and seem to always lose to the situation I described, I wonder why they still get Vikings. Are the pros simply just wrong? Were there other factors in the game that caused them to go Vikings? Maybe they guessed wrong, or were trying to mindgame, or were mindgamed, or something. But I don't see a reason to bring the fight to the air, where he could just mass Corruptors, which won't be wasted since he can just turn them into BroodLords later, and Thors don't kill Corruptors very fast. Anyways, since Ghosts can deal with Infestors, like your guide says (you actually get Ghosts a lot earlier than me, I resort to tanks first), I've been wanting to try that, to basically skip tanks all together, which also helps with Broodlord tech since you don't always know when it will come and storing up energy on ghosts before hand is really helpful, and because Ghosts are a lot less gas intensive than Tanks (more thors yay). So, thoughts on vikings? EDIT: SOrry missed kinda your post, thats why you get 3 reactored ports, 6 vikings at a time + getting air upgrades is pretty good, + thor splash and snipe you should always be in decent shape, 3/3 thors do decent against zerg air.
Ok thanks ^-^
|
On August 15 2011 13:30 antz0r wrote:
lol good guide but if there's just a very small paragraph of words do you really need a spoiler within a spoiler?!
It's not about length, just organizing things, to make it all neat, sorry if it's unapealling to you.
|
the spoiler with Hydra is pretty funny xD anyway nice guide but i mostly want to see replays or ill check out ur stream
|
On August 15 2011 15:54 Rykros wrote:
the spoiler with Hydra is pretty funny xD anyway nice guide but i mostly want to see replays or ill check out ur stream
Uploaded another, sorry those 2 are all I had, I'll add more as i get more :-)
|
lol imma start calling my tank Chuck now. nice guide aswell
|
The more I read these threads the more I want to post my TvZ extensive mech guide. I win ~90 percent of TvZ atm that goes past 12 minutes. However theres a huge amount of standards that are involved in that, and some maps are just better for mech and some are worse.
The description of pre-emptively massing vikings just because there is a greater spire can backfire on the higher levels I'd like to point out. Use extra scans to figure out if hes producing corupters and where they are being rallied to so you can find out how many you are dealing with.
also if you read this bonkers, I'd like you to include more replays. These 3 replays didn't really demonstrate a late game execution or any consistent standards.
|
Upgraded mech rapes shit, but getting what upgrades can be confusing if you are still on 1 armory, Usually if i see roach i get armor first, because roaches do sooo much burst DPS, but if i see mass muta getting weapons for your thors is huge, once you get 3-6 thors, mutas just aren't really viable with thor upgrades.
Isnt that the wrong way around?
Armor reduces one damage from every attack.
Roaches do few attacks with a lot of damage per attack.
Mutas and lings do a lot of attacks with little damage per attack.
Im not sure if attack upgrades are superimportant when fighting muta's because i'm a zerg, but I think your reasoning about armor effectivity is backwards.
|
Gonna read this so I know what I'm up against.
Edit: Didn't learn anything new. Oh well. At least I don't have to deal with some new abusive shit :D
|
On August 15 2011 17:22 JediGamer wrote:
The more I read these threads the more I want to post my TvZ extensive mech guide. I win ~90 percent of TvZ atm that goes past 12 minutes. However theres a huge amount of standards that are involved in that, and some maps are just better for mech and some are worse.
The description of pre-emptively massing vikings just because there is a greater spire can backfire on the higher levels I'd like to point out. Use extra scans to figure out if hes producing corupters and where they are being rallied to so you can find out how many you are dealing with.
also if you read this bonkers, I'd like you to include more replays. These 3 replays didn't really demonstrate a late game execution or any consistent standards.
Ever TvZ game I'm playing on ladder is getting uploaded, read my above post, Ill add more as i keep getting them, I really talk about being ABLE to mass vikings, 3 Reactored starports, because BL's are most common Zerg T3 against this comp imo. But yes going blind mass viking is bad.
On August 15 2011 18:11 Timm wrote:Show nested quote +Upgraded mech rapes shit, but getting what upgrades can be confusing if you are still on 1 armory, Usually if i see roach i get armor first, because roaches do sooo much burst DPS, but if i see mass muta getting weapons for your thors is huge, once you get 3-6 thors, mutas just aren't really viable with thor upgrades. Isnt that the wrong way around? Armor reduces one damage from every attack. Roaches do few attacks with a lot of damage per attack. Mutas and lings do a lot of attacks with little damage per attack. Im not sure if attack upgrades are superimportant when fighting muta's because i'm a zerg, but I think your reasoning about armor effectivity is backwards.
Very possible, Mid master reasoning, Although I do think attack is pretty big when fighting mutas, but the armor thing im not sure about.
|
Decent guide. It honestly feels a bit disorganized in the manner it's written, but all the basics are here. As a zerg I can say I hate playing against mech with a passion. You basically have to prepare to lose lots of your expansions and drones from hellions. The mid-game is truly uncomfortable. Between the hellions, thors, and tanks, you're supposed to produce an army that can just keep you alive. And if hellions do their job early game then it becomes almost impossible to edge out a comeback.
Given all that I think I learned a bit from the OPs guide. Quick burrow with tunneling claws seems useful. And then a quick NP upgrade for infestors once my bases are secured. Both of these tools often go unused in the rush for broodlords. And lastly of course nydus. I always tell myself ill use nydus in all those ideal situations. Maybe now ill remember.
|
Good guide, look forward to downloading and watching your replays tonight
|
You should add that the easiest and safest way to counter Mech is actually to go with a roach + muta composition. Thors will auto target mutas (with extremely low dps vs air) while the roaches kill everything.
If you are going mech, you MUST kill a ton of drones with hellion harass, or you WILL lose to roach + muta, every time.
|
On August 15 2011 21:48 link0 wrote:
You should add that the easiest and safest way to counter Mech is actually to go with a roach + muta composition. Thors will auto target mutas (with extremely low dps vs air) while the roaches kill everything.
If you are going mech, you MUST kill a ton of drones with hellion harass, or you WILL lose to roach + muta, every time.
hmmm, can't you just kind of slowpush if you must with thor tank to take a third, of course thats map dependant, but I just feel like saying HELLIONS MUST DO Damage or insta gg isn't true. While it is true that you are vulnerable to air until you get your thor/viking/ghost count up you can do slow push with turret and thor and tank and take third no?
|
On August 15 2011 21:48 link0 wrote:
You should add that the easiest and safest way to counter Mech is actually to go with a roach + muta composition. Thors will auto target mutas (with extremely low dps vs air) while the roaches kill everything.
If you are going mech, you MUST kill a ton of drones with hellion harass, or you WILL lose to roach + muta, every time.
Honestly you just completely broke the way I think about playing meching terrans. In a really good way of course. Cant wait to try this out
|
your Country52797 Posts
I was actually expecting this... is that bad?
|
with this style i felt that i only won if A : zerg didnt know wtf to do or B : my hellions cooked so many drones there was no way i could lose.
|
On August 15 2011 22:27 skunk_works wrote:
with this style i felt that i only won if A : zerg didnt know wtf to do or B : my hellions cooked so many drones there was no way i could lose.
Have you seen cats vs thorizan? This style is insane lategame, with 200/200 10+ ghosts, zerg really has nothing to push into you, I'd suggest trying it again.
|
On August 15 2011 21:53 Bonkerz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 21:48 link0 wrote:
You should add that the easiest and safest way to counter Mech is actually to go with a roach + muta composition. Thors will auto target mutas (with extremely low dps vs air) while the roaches kill everything.
If you are going mech, you MUST kill a ton of drones with hellion harass, or you WILL lose to roach + muta, every time. hmmm, can't you just kind of slowpush if you must with thor tank to take a third, of course thats map dependant, but I just feel like saying HELLIONS MUST DO Damage or insta gg isn't true. While it is true that you are vulnerable to air until you get your thor/viking/ghost count up you can do slow push with turret and thor and tank and take third no?
I'm a GM terran. No, you cannot slow push with Mech vs zerg because it takes too long to clear creep to slow push with turrets (assuming they did a good job with creep spread). The entire matchup of T v Z is putting on pressure EARLY and OFTEN to prevent droning.
You can win, however, by hitting a weird and unexpected timing (something Goody is very good at). I don't recommend relying on such gimmicks though if you are trying to improve your game.
The problem with Thor + Tank is that they are both gas heavy, so you will have a TON of minerals left over for (useless) hellions that do nothing against roach+muta.
By not having marines in your composition, you are forced to build turrets AND keep a thor in your main.
|
On August 15 2011 22:05 Sporadic44 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 21:48 link0 wrote:
You should add that the easiest and safest way to counter Mech is actually to go with a roach + muta composition. Thors will auto target mutas (with extremely low dps vs air) while the roaches kill everything.
If you are going mech, you MUST kill a ton of drones with hellion harass, or you WILL lose to roach + muta, every time. Honestly you just completely broke the way I think about playing meching terrans. In a really good way of course. Cant wait to try this out
Trust me, it works. Open with roaches to stop BFH harass. Then add mutas (if you scout a pure hellion thor, then make only 6-8 max, if you scout hellion tank thor, then mass as many mutas as you possibly can).
You will not lose to any Mech terran players of your same skill level doing this.
|
On August 15 2011 22:36 link0 wrote:
Trust me, it works. Open with roaches to stop BFH harass. Then add mutas (if you scout a pure hellion thor, then make only 6-8 max, if you scout hellion tank thor, then mass as many mutas as you possibly can).
You will not lose to any Mech terran players of your same skill level doing this.
Much appreciated sir, I will try this out asap. I've gotten hit with this twice on Tal'darim now and I was dumbstruck both times. Trying to rush to BLs while making enough roaches to stop the push. While hellions wrecked my shit at my 4th and 5th. It didnt seem fair. I went through every possible zerg combination I knew, but never have I before considered roach muta. Its completely intuitive though.
Thanks for the insight.
Hope all you mid-range master Terran's are trying this on the ladder today.
|
In fact if any master terrans want to give this build a try shoot me a PM for some customs.
|
Really Heavy Muta
[spoiler]Going super heavy muta really doesnt leave much gas leftover for anything but lings, So sit on your ass until you get a good amount of thors and hellions and push out and kill his third. Make sure you have enough turrets to defend production and mineral lines.
sorry but i've been put against REALLY muta HEAVY builds before.. im talking up to 20-30 mutas
and the amount of thors i have around 6-8 cant do anything against it especially with magic boxing
and the harass potential from the mutas is so strong that if i pretty much leave my base i have to all in
so how do you deal with a ridiculous amount of mutas?
|
On August 16 2011 00:26 Logick wrote:
Really Heavy Muta
[spoiler]Going super heavy muta really doesnt leave much gas leftover for anything but lings, So sit on your ass until you get a good amount of thors and hellions and push out and kill his third. Make sure you have enough turrets to defend production and mineral lines.
sorry but i've been put against REALLY muta HEAVY builds before.. im talking up to 20-30 mutas
and the amount of thors i have around 6-8 cant do anything against it especially with magic boxing
and the harass potential from the mutas is so strong that if i pretty much leave my base i have to all in
so how do you deal with a ridiculous amount of mutas?
Between Ghost snipes, thors and viking you should be able to handle it.
|
Roach drop and mutas takes a dump at Terran mech. Chuck will be crying when an overlord shits out 4 roaches on top of it and your pretty Thors will get swarmed by magic boxed mutas.
|
On August 16 2011 01:56 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
Roach drop and mutas takes a dump at Terran mech. Chuck will be crying when an overlord shits out 4 roaches on top of it and your pretty Thors will get swarmed by magic boxed mutas.
First off, Chuck is only the first tank, the rest are just regular siege tanks, chuck is special, Now that I have that clarified, it chouldnt be that easy for the zerg, if he has a shit ton of ovies, be fucking smart and expect this get like 4 vikings (no more till BL tech otherwise just wasting supply) and kill the ovies and have good siege tank spread, this style is by NO MEANS UNBEATABLE, but it isn't some herp derp terran goes mech ez win. There are more and more pros pulling off mech tvz.
|
Things like bro-festors hit squads and OL drops are a Ts big enemy here, because everything but your hellions are just ridiculously slow to react, and hellions die to a few fungals in large groups, so you really have to throw turrets up everywhere. And even roach drops of 4 at a time can't be handled effectively by almost any amount of hellions, so you really have to keep your map awareness up. Obviously Nydus will be even more deadly as stated, but at least you get a few seconds of warning for that.
Really, if you have the minerals, just throw up a hundred or so missile turrets everywhere, and you'll be fine. :-p
|
Czech Republic11293 Posts
Nice guide, gave me some insight on how Terran mechs. I do think you should get Armor upgrades against Muta/Ling and Attack upgrades against many Roaches though; Armor reduces attack of Zerglings by at least 20% and attack of Mutas by similiar amount, while reducing damage of Roaches by only about 6-7%.
I also use similiar strategy as link0 against mech, as do I believe many other zergs, so I think it would be helpful if you added some more information about how exactly you deal with Roach+Mutalisk composition.
Anyway, nice job with the guide!
|
Thanks for sharing! tvz is my weakness.
|
On August 16 2011 02:07 Scipaeus121212 wrote:
so I think it would be helpful if you added some more information about how exactly you deal with Roach+Mutalisk composition.
Anyway, nice job with the guide!
I mean tanks and thors, I think Linko is talking about some specific timing before i get my third up, in which case it does sound scary, what i would suggest is missle turrets and slowpush to secure your third with tanks and thors and Tureets because as stated above you should have tons of minerals when doing this build
|
Before you cry from Link0's GMness be aware that he is the strategy forums resident basher of anything not standard. That said Link0 has definitely pointed out one of the most difficult aspects of playing mech as T.
How do you deal with mass roaches with some mutas to distract the thors? The obvious answer is more tanks, but if you get more tanks, you risk a big switch into heavy magic box mutas that may overwhelm you (I have suffered many losses from this).
I am thinking that the answer (if there is one) to this problem probably lies with ghosts. Ghosts synergize into mech against zerg extremely well. They do well against mutas, and against a few thors zerg will have to magic box, removing any opportunity for focusing down your ghosts before you can snipe down all those mutas. They also really help with the infestor problem and can even deal with broods if you have enough energy. It is also helpeful that mech play has relatively little apm intensive action, so you will be free to concentrate on sniping.
I think that this type of ghost/mech play is currently pretty unexplored and it may solve the problems that many pros think makes mech unavailable in TvZ.
|
On August 16 2011 02:39 statikg wrote:
Before you cry from Link0's GMness be aware that he is the strategy forums resident basher of anything not standard. That said Link0 has definitely pointed out one of the most difficult aspects of playing mech as T.
How do you deal with mass roaches with some mutas to distract the thors? The obvious answer is more tanks, but if you get more tanks, you risk a big switch into heavy magic box mutas that may overwhelm you (I have suffered many losses from this).
I am thinking that the answer (if there is one) to this problem probably lies with ghosts. Ghosts synergize into mech against zerg extremely well. They do well against mutas, and against a few thors zerg will have to magic box, removing any opportunity for focusing down your ghosts before you can snipe down all those mutas. They also really help with the infestor problem and can even deal with broods if you have enough energy. It is also helpeful that mech play has relatively little apm intensive action, so you will be free to concentrate on sniping.
I think that this type of ghost/mech play is currently pretty unexplored and it may solve the problems that many pros think makes mech unavailable in TvZ.
Yeah I understand that he is GM, I just have an issue with "blueflame hellions do damage or mech isnt viable", it's a narrowminded attitude. Lategame tvz mech with 10+ ghost is insane strong.
|
On August 16 2011 02:58 Bonkerz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 02:39 statikg wrote:
Before you cry from Link0's GMness be aware that he is the strategy forums resident basher of anything not standard. That said Link0 has definitely pointed out one of the most difficult aspects of playing mech as T.
How do you deal with mass roaches with some mutas to distract the thors? The obvious answer is more tanks, but if you get more tanks, you risk a big switch into heavy magic box mutas that may overwhelm you (I have suffered many losses from this).
I am thinking that the answer (if there is one) to this problem probably lies with ghosts. Ghosts synergize into mech against zerg extremely well. They do well against mutas, and against a few thors zerg will have to magic box, removing any opportunity for focusing down your ghosts before you can snipe down all those mutas. They also really help with the infestor problem and can even deal with broods if you have enough energy. It is also helpeful that mech play has relatively little apm intensive action, so you will be free to concentrate on sniping.
I think that this type of ghost/mech play is currently pretty unexplored and it may solve the problems that many pros think makes mech unavailable in TvZ. Yeah I understand that he is GM, I just have an issue with "blueflame hellions do damage or mech isnt viable", it's a narrowminded attitude. Lategame tvz mech with 10+ ghost is insane strong.
The thing is how do we use ghosts to help with this mid-mid/late game roach problem? In my mind it works something like, cut down on thors signficiantly, use the extra gas to increase tanks and get ghosts who mixed with 1-2 thors will be sufficient to pretty much insta gib the mutas freeing up the thors to shoot roaches and any remaining energy can help by sniping roaches as well. (be sure to brush up on your snipe micro) The difficult question is when do we NEED to add ghosts to deal with this issue?
|
On August 16 2011 03:02 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 02:58 Bonkerz wrote:On August 16 2011 02:39 statikg wrote:
Before you cry from Link0's GMness be aware that he is the strategy forums resident basher of anything not standard. That said Link0 has definitely pointed out one of the most difficult aspects of playing mech as T.
How do you deal with mass roaches with some mutas to distract the thors? The obvious answer is more tanks, but if you get more tanks, you risk a big switch into heavy magic box mutas that may overwhelm you (I have suffered many losses from this).
I am thinking that the answer (if there is one) to this problem probably lies with ghosts. Ghosts synergize into mech against zerg extremely well. They do well against mutas, and against a few thors zerg will have to magic box, removing any opportunity for focusing down your ghosts before you can snipe down all those mutas. They also really help with the infestor problem and can even deal with broods if you have enough energy. It is also helpeful that mech play has relatively little apm intensive action, so you will be free to concentrate on sniping.
I think that this type of ghost/mech play is currently pretty unexplored and it may solve the problems that many pros think makes mech unavailable in TvZ. Yeah I understand that he is GM, I just have an issue with "blueflame hellions do damage or mech isnt viable", it's a narrowminded attitude. Lategame tvz mech with 10+ ghost is insane strong. The thing is how do we use ghosts to help with this mid-mid/late game roach problem? In my mind it works something like, cut down on thors signficiantly, use the extra gas to increase tanks and get ghosts who mixed with 1-2 thors will be sufficient to pretty much insta gib the mutas freeing up the thors to shoot roaches and any remaining energy can help by sniping roaches as well. (be sure to brush up on your snipe micro) The difficult question is when do we NEED to add ghosts to deal with this issue?
I still havn't seen this comp that is actually deadly, I'm running some practice games atm tho, so we'll see what happens. Is this an allin from zerg?
|
No its not an allin, its more of a tech switch. Say that you are heavily invested into thors and hellions with a couple tanks to help out. You have seen some muta harass and you have just taken your 3rd. Now all of a sudden, instead of continuing into infestor roach or going for quick BL zerg makes 2 rounds of roaches and just attacks straight into you. Your composition is not well designed to beat this type of army. Your thors will be focusing on the 6-10 mutas, meanwhile your 2-3tanks can do little to stop all your hellions from dieing horribly and ultimately without the hellion meatshield your thors will probably die to heavy roach play as they don't really counter roaches very well.
Now lets say you survive, naturally you will start replacing your dead thors with seige tanks because you almost got run over by mass roaches. However this time zerg macros up 20 mutas, and you only have a few thors left over because you thought mutas werent the main problem, now you get overrun by magic box mutas and lose everything. Likewise if you went heavy thor again, you probably get overrun by heavy roches with a few mutas.
As you can see the problem is the thor/tank balance which is basically impossible to keep correct because of the quickness with which zerg can make tech switches. Its possible that with some sort of double early armoury play this could be made to work anyway, but its not clear.
|
On August 16 2011 03:25 statikg wrote:
No its not an allin, its more of a tech switch. Say that you are heavily invested into thors and hellions with a couple tanks to help out. You have seen some muta harass and you have just taken your 3rd. Now all of a sudden, instead of continuing into infestor roach or going for quick BL zerg makes 2 rounds of roaches and just attacks straight into you. Your composition is not well designed to beat this type of army. Your thors will be focusing on the 6-10 mutas, meanwhile your 2-3tanks can do little to stop all your hellions from dieing horribly and ultimately without the hellion meatshield your thors will probably die to heavy roach play as they don't really counter roaches very well.
Now lets say you survive, naturally you will start replacing your dead thors with seige tanks because you almost got run over by mass roaches. However this time zerg macros up 20 mutas, and you only have a few thors left over because you thought mutas werent the main problem, now you get overrun by magic box mutas and lose everything. Likewise if you went heavy thor again, you probably get overrun by heavy roches with a few mutas.
As you can see the problem is the thor/tank balance which is basically impossible to keep correct because of the quickness with which zerg can make tech switches. Its possible that with some sort of double early armoury play this could be made to work anyway, but its not clear.
Added reps vs muta roach.
|
I've been watching Trump's stream a bunch and this is the opening that he often uses in TvZ. I've started playing this style myself and I've found that the hardest part about it is those damn counter attacks. I use sensor towers to see counter attacks coming at the mid-high diamond level. I can raise depots and a couple of tanks and hellions coupled with repair really help against those devastating run-bys.
|
On August 16 2011 03:08 Bonkerz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 03:02 statikg wrote:On August 16 2011 02:58 Bonkerz wrote:On August 16 2011 02:39 statikg wrote:
Before you cry from Link0's GMness be aware that he is the strategy forums resident basher of anything not standard. That said Link0 has definitely pointed out one of the most difficult aspects of playing mech as T.
How do you deal with mass roaches with some mutas to distract the thors? The obvious answer is more tanks, but if you get more tanks, you risk a big switch into heavy magic box mutas that may overwhelm you (I have suffered many losses from this).
I am thinking that the answer (if there is one) to this problem probably lies with ghosts. Ghosts synergize into mech against zerg extremely well. They do well against mutas, and against a few thors zerg will have to magic box, removing any opportunity for focusing down your ghosts before you can snipe down all those mutas. They also really help with the infestor problem and can even deal with broods if you have enough energy. It is also helpeful that mech play has relatively little apm intensive action, so you will be free to concentrate on sniping.
I think that this type of ghost/mech play is currently pretty unexplored and it may solve the problems that many pros think makes mech unavailable in TvZ. Yeah I understand that he is GM, I just have an issue with "blueflame hellions do damage or mech isnt viable", it's a narrowminded attitude. Lategame tvz mech with 10+ ghost is insane strong. The thing is how do we use ghosts to help with this mid-mid/late game roach problem? In my mind it works something like, cut down on thors signficiantly, use the extra gas to increase tanks and get ghosts who mixed with 1-2 thors will be sufficient to pretty much insta gib the mutas freeing up the thors to shoot roaches and any remaining energy can help by sniping roaches as well. (be sure to brush up on your snipe micro) The difficult question is when do we NEED to add ghosts to deal with this issue? I still havn't seen this comp that is actually deadly, I'm running some practice games atm tho, so we'll see what happens. Is this an allin from zerg?
Ghosts can deal with Infestors and help against Neural, so that means you can get more Thors instead of the gas intensive Tanks (otherwise you would dump your minerals into hellions which don't help much). Because of this reasoning, I'm gonna try getting ghosts much earlier :D
On August 16 2011 00:26 Logick wrote:
Really Heavy Muta
[spoiler]Going super heavy muta really doesnt leave much gas leftover for anything but lings, So sit on your ass until you get a good amount of thors and hellions and push out and kill his third. Make sure you have enough turrets to defend production and mineral lines.
sorry but i've been put against REALLY muta HEAVY builds before.. im talking up to 20-30 mutas
and the amount of thors i have around 6-8 cant do anything against it especially with magic boxing
and the harass potential from the mutas is so strong that if i pretty much leave my base i have to all in
so how do you deal with a ridiculous amount of mutas?
If you're really have 20 mutas vs 6 thors or 30 mutas vs 8 thors, the thors should win, or your upgrades are way behind or something else.
|
On August 16 2011 04:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 03:08 Bonkerz wrote:On August 16 2011 03:02 statikg wrote:On August 16 2011 02:58 Bonkerz wrote:On August 16 2011 02:39 statikg wrote:
Before you cry from Link0's GMness be aware that he is the strategy forums resident basher of anything not standard. That said Link0 has definitely pointed out one of the most difficult aspects of playing mech as T.
How do you deal with mass roaches with some mutas to distract the thors? The obvious answer is more tanks, but if you get more tanks, you risk a big switch into heavy magic box mutas that may overwhelm you (I have suffered many losses from this).
I am thinking that the answer (if there is one) to this problem probably lies with ghosts. Ghosts synergize into mech against zerg extremely well. They do well against mutas, and against a few thors zerg will have to magic box, removing any opportunity for focusing down your ghosts before you can snipe down all those mutas. They also really help with the infestor problem and can even deal with broods if you have enough energy. It is also helpeful that mech play has relatively little apm intensive action, so you will be free to concentrate on sniping.
I think that this type of ghost/mech play is currently pretty unexplored and it may solve the problems that many pros think makes mech unavailable in TvZ. Yeah I understand that he is GM, I just have an issue with "blueflame hellions do damage or mech isnt viable", it's a narrowminded attitude. Lategame tvz mech with 10+ ghost is insane strong. The thing is how do we use ghosts to help with this mid-mid/late game roach problem? In my mind it works something like, cut down on thors signficiantly, use the extra gas to increase tanks and get ghosts who mixed with 1-2 thors will be sufficient to pretty much insta gib the mutas freeing up the thors to shoot roaches and any remaining energy can help by sniping roaches as well. (be sure to brush up on your snipe micro) The difficult question is when do we NEED to add ghosts to deal with this issue? I still havn't seen this comp that is actually deadly, I'm running some practice games atm tho, so we'll see what happens. Is this an allin from zerg? Ghosts can deal with Infestors and help against Neural, so that means you can get more Thors instead of the gas intensive Tanks (otherwise you would dump your minerals into hellions which don't help much). Because of this reasoning, I'm gonna try getting ghosts much earlier :D Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 00:26 Logick wrote:
Really Heavy Muta
[spoiler]Going super heavy muta really doesnt leave much gas leftover for anything but lings, So sit on your ass until you get a good amount of thors and hellions and push out and kill his third. Make sure you have enough turrets to defend production and mineral lines.
sorry but i've been put against REALLY muta HEAVY builds before.. im talking up to 20-30 mutas
and the amount of thors i have around 6-8 cant do anything against it especially with magic boxing
and the harass potential from the mutas is so strong that if i pretty much leave my base i have to all in
so how do you deal with a ridiculous amount of mutas? If you're really have 20 mutas vs 6 thors or 30 mutas vs 8 thors, the thors should win, or your upgrades are way behind or something else.
^^True story, upgraded 4+ thors do well against muta and again ghost + viking that late in game.
|
hmmm, can't you just kind of slowpush if you must with thor tank to take a third, of course thats map dependant, but I just feel like saying HELLIONS MUST DO Damage or insta gg isn't true. While it is true that you are vulnerable to air until you get your thor/viking/ghost count up you can do slow push with turret and thor and tank and take third no?
No, he's right. Mech relies soley on the hellion harass, or else, as he said roach muta will face roll you.
so how do you deal with a ridiculous amount of mutas?
Sorry to derail. Get 2-4 thors, max. Then just use marines. 3/3 marines eat up fucking mutas, regardless. They HAVE to target tanks or thors, they can't target marines or they run the risk of clumping and thors unmagic box and fuck them up hardcore.
Trust me, it works. Open with roaches to stop BFH harass. Then add mutas (if you scout a pure hellion thor, then make only 6-8 max, if you scout hellion tank thor, then mass as many mutas as you possibly can).
You will not lose to any Mech terran players of your same skill level doing this.
Again, zergs, listen to him. Without marines, the thors have to physically target every...single...fucking...roach.
If they go tank heavy, abuse infested terran egg spawns, and abuse NP and flanks etc.
Between Ghost snipes, thors and viking you should be able to handle it.
...Think about that unit composition. What happens when the zerg does tech switches on you? Sling bling infestor BL into roach infestor to sling ultra infestor etc and just keeps bouncing around...? Ghost thor viking is just the absolute slowest, most cost intensive combo you can ask for. Easily killed, and abused by some solid infestor usage.
I mean tanks and thors, I think Linko is talking about some specific timing before i get my third up, in which case it does sound scary, what i would suggest is missle turrets and slowpush to secure your third with tanks and thors and Tureets because as stated above you should have tons of minerals when doing this build
It would be about the time zergs gets 3 base + lair after hellion harass, so well before your third. Hence you'd be pinned to just hellion harasses, and what not, as mutas will keep you pinned and defensive. You'll have to slow push to a third, as opposed to just defend a third and spring board off of it.
Yeah I understand that he is GM, I just have an issue with "blueflame hellions do damage or mech isnt viable", it's a narrowminded attitude. Lategame tvz mech with 10+ ghost is insane strong.
Well, to be honest chris, you haven't really sunken your teeth into any really GOOD zergs. The zergs that just plain make you cry. The ones that won't let you get to the late game safely, and effectively. Mech does rely on hellion harass, very very true and not narrowminded. If zerg gets 3 base and 70 drones safely with little harass damage, you're fucked. He can make a macro hatch or two, and thats 4-5 hatches of units constantly being spawned. Trading with a zerg in this situation is suicide, and you will lose.
|
On August 16 2011 05:04 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +hmmm, can't you just kind of slowpush if you must with thor tank to take a third, of course thats map dependant, but I just feel like saying HELLIONS MUST DO Damage or insta gg isn't true. While it is true that you are vulnerable to air until you get your thor/viking/ghost count up you can do slow push with turret and thor and tank and take third no?
No, he's right. Mech relies soley on the hellion harass, or else, as he said roach muta will face roll you. Sorry to derail. Get 2-4 thors, max. Then just use marines. 3/3 marines eat up fucking mutas, regardless. They HAVE to target tanks or thors, they can't target marines or they run the risk of clumping and thors unmagic box and fuck them up hardcore. Show nested quote +
Trust me, it works. Open with roaches to stop BFH harass. Then add mutas (if you scout a pure hellion thor, then make only 6-8 max, if you scout hellion tank thor, then mass as many mutas as you possibly can).
You will not lose to any Mech terran players of your same skill level doing this.
Again, zergs, listen to him. Without marines, the thors have to physically target every...single...fucking...roach. If they go tank heavy, abuse infested terran egg spawns, and abuse NP and flanks etc. ...Think about that unit composition. What happens when the zerg does tech switches on you? Sling bling infestor BL into roach infestor to sling ultra infestor etc and just keeps bouncing around...? Ghost thor viking is just the absolute slowest, most cost intensive combo you can ask for. Easily killed, and abused by some solid infestor usage. Show nested quote +I mean tanks and thors, I think Linko is talking about some specific timing before i get my third up, in which case it does sound scary, what i would suggest is missle turrets and slowpush to secure your third with tanks and thors and Tureets because as stated above you should have tons of minerals when doing this build
It would be about the time zergs gets 3 base + lair after hellion harass, so well before your third. Hence you'd be pinned to just hellion harasses, and what not, as mutas will keep you pinned and defensive. You'll have to slow push to a third, as opposed to just defend a third and spring board off of it. Show nested quote +Yeah I understand that he is GM, I just have an issue with "blueflame hellions do damage or mech isnt viable", it's a narrowminded attitude. Lategame tvz mech with 10+ ghost is insane strong. Well, to be honest chris, you haven't really sunken your teeth into any really GOOD zergs. The zergs that just plain make you cry. The ones that won't let you get to the late game safely, and effectively. Mech does rely on hellion harass, very very true and not narrowminded. If zerg gets 3 base and 70 drones safely with little harass damage, you're fucked. He can make a macro hatch or two, and thats 4-5 hatches of units constantly being spawned. Trading with a zerg in this situation is suicide, and you will lose.
Just keep in mind that before the zerg can tech switch, he will have to lose his army first, in late game situations. BLs take a long time to get out, so you will have a minute or so to kill a couple bases or possibly even just rape his main and all his important building.
Ghost thor vikings can deal with sling bling BL infestor, btw... vikings kill the BLs, ghosts deal with the infestors, and ghost+thor should be OK. You can quickly reinforce with Hellions if you scout such a tech switch, which rape ling/bling, or should already have a few out. You can even add in some tanks. But that is so much gas for the zerg, there is no way he can win with all those useless zerglings. Really, a few blue flame hellions just negates any number of zerglings as long as you're not on creep or get fungal'd. Until the very lategame, a zerg won't have +3/+3 for his zerglings, while your Thors will have 3/3, which is very strong, since the zerg has so many upgrades to get (melee, range, armor, air attack, air armor).
|
As the zerg who played the practice games against bonkerz I can contribute what I noticed as a zerg going up against this strategy.
Some disclaimers: I knew what build bonkerz planned to do. So my response to it was obviously much better than it would be if I didnt know what I was up against. My early game setup was based around dealing with quick hellions. Obviously, as I went straight into roach skipping ling speed. I feel thats worth mentioning as It made dealing with the build much easier than it normally would be. Also I got awfully lucky killing the third with my mutalisks. If I wasnt able to shut that base down the game would have looked much different. Now to my thoughts on this strategy as a zerg whos gone up against it.
I'll start by saying link0 was right. roach mutalisk is the proper response to this playstyle. But I can guarantee most zergs will not respond in that manner. That composition from zerg is completely counter intuitive. Most hellion openings tend to fall back onto a more standard marine tank centric play, with drops and blue flames mixed in. So even if most zergs respond correctly early game with roaches they will most likely transition into more familiar builds in the midgame. Which this build can deal with handily.
However, a build should not rely on your opponent responding with the wrong unit composition, so for the sake of consistency i'll discuss fighting this with roach mutas. You can see from the replay fighting this Terran army head on is nearly impossible. If the tanks are sieged well and protected by thors, turrets and a few marines, running into this would be suicide. Thats the real strength to mech play. Most zergs know roaches are shit when pit against upgraded tanks, So counters, and good mutalisk control become essential to winning.
So with all that in mind I want to mention a few things the Terran can do to limit the zergs options. As bonkerz mentioned you'll have extra minerals. Build turrets on your side of the map. If the zerg must weave through thors and turrets mutalisks become a less appealing option. If however you find yourself with a thor heavy composition, you have to prepare for the roach pressure. Going against this mech composition its clear you can do one of two things when attacking. Use your mutalisks to pick off easy targets, or barrel down an expansion with roaches. Figure out what the zerg plans to do with their army and stopping it will be easier. There ends up being this ping pong effect. "Ok hes got a lot of thors over here and the tanks are spread thin, time for roaches, He's consolidated the tanks so now I should focus on having mutalisks to stop the push". You get the idea.
Other things to consider,
supply depot walls at vulnerable expo back doors are a good idea to give you a few extra moments to respond to a counter. Be ready to pop a raven out if the Z is roach heavy. If the zerg spreads himself thin with expos pump some blue flame hellions out. Extra command centers are a must. It's a great mineral sink, and chances are good you'll need to replace expos anyway. Forgive me if this next suggestion is dumb(remember I play zerg) the missile turret/PF range upgrade and armor upgrade seem worthwhile here, since you wont be getting infantry upgrades anyway. And if you have a lot of money late game, PF's at chokes can be very obnoxious. Make sure you clear overlords off your side of the map constantly, and turret ring vulnerable nydus locations. And finally another suggestion that might be stupid but just an idea I have, a few dropships to transport those slow thors could be well worth the investment.
Thats all I got for now. If this style catches on I'll do a write up for zerg on dealing with it. Good luck all.
|
On August 16 2011 05:29 Sporadic44 wrote:
As the zerg who played the practice games against bonkerz I can contribute what I noticed as a zerg going up against this strategy.
Some disclaimers: I knew what build bonkerz planned to do. So my response to it was obviously much better than it would be if I didnt know what I was up against. My early game setup was based around dealing with quick hellions. Obviously, as I went straight into roach skipping ling speed. I feel thats worth mentioning as It made dealing with the build much easier than it normally would be. Also I got awfully lucky killing the third with my mutalisks. If I wasnt able to shut that base down the game would have looked much different. Now to my thoughts on this strategy as a zerg whos gone up against it.
I'll start by saying link0 was right. roach mutalisk is the proper response to this playstyle. But I can guarantee most zergs will not respond in that manner. That composition from zerg is completely counter intuitive. Most hellion openings tend to fall back onto a more standard marine tank centric play, with drops and blue flames mixed in. So even if most zergs respond correctly early game with roaches they will most likely transition into more familiar builds in the midgame. Which this build can deal with handily.
However, a build should not rely on your opponent responding with the wrong unit composition, so for the sake of consistency i'll discuss fighting this with roach mutas. You can see from the replay fighting this Terran army head on is nearly impossible. If the tanks are sieged well and protected by thors, turrets and a few marines, running into this would be suicide. Thats the real strength to mech play. Most zergs know roaches are shit when pit against upgraded tanks, So counters, and good mutalisk control become essential to winning.
So with all that in mind I want to mention a few things the Terran can do to limit the zergs options. As bonkerz mentioned you'll have extra minerals. Build turrets on your side of the map. If the zerg must weave through thors and turrets mutalisks become a less appealing option. If however you find yourself with a thor heavy composition, you have to prepare for the roach pressure. Going against this mech composition its clear you can do one of two things when attacking. Use your mutalisks to pick off easy targets, or barrel down an expansion with roaches. Figure out what the zerg plans to do with their army and stopping it will be easier. There ends up being this ping pong effect. "Ok hes got a lot of thors over here and the tanks are spread thin, time for roaches, He's consolidated the tanks so now I should focus on having mutalisks to stop the push". You get the idea.
Other things to consider,
supply depot walls at vulnerable expo back doors are a good idea to give you a few extra moments to respond to a counter. Be ready to pop a raven out if the Z is roach heavy. If the zerg spreads himself thin with expos pump some blue flame hellions out. Extra command centers are a must. It's a great mineral sink, and chances are good you'll need to replace expos anyway. Forgive me if this next suggestion is dumb(remember I play zerg) the missile turret/PF range upgrade and armor upgrade seem worthwhile here, since you wont be getting infantry upgrades anyway. And if you have a lot of money late game, PF's at chokes can be very obnoxious. Make sure you clear overlords off your side of the map constantly, and turret ring vulnerable nydus locations. And finally another suggestion that might be stupid but just an idea I have, a few dropships to transport those slow thors could be well worth the investment.
Thats all I got for now. If this style catches on I'll do a write up for zerg on dealing with it. Good luck all.
Thanks for your input.
Actually, I've been wondering.
I think mech might need to be much more patience and defensive than most people including me play it. Mech should be a slow push, not play aggressive like marine/tank but simply with a mech composition.
I think it's pretty hard though, to learn this turtle mech style. Trial and error will work of course but because it is so different, it can make you/me uncomfortable.
I think building a few barracks to lift around to help make artificial chokes and make PFs and turrets to secure half the map is essential, so that he cannot out expo you. From there Terran should win because since Zerg naturally is less resource efficient than Terran especially against turtle heavy mech. I think future mech strategies will need to rely on this goal/strategy, instead of just maxing out on 200 and then attacking like a PvZ deathball strategy.
But because of this, I think it will be pretty map dependent, so hopefully future maps will take in consideration of more rare styles like mech. Unfortunately tanks are now 3 food instead of 2, so I hope that it will not be too much of a detriment to mech, or else it would be a shame. At least you can start replacing SCVs lategame with OCs and Mules instead, I guess. I'm thinking this style would rely heavily on Tanks and Turrets and PFs and sensor towers, sort of like how TvT (Boxer vs Rain or Maka vs Dream)
|
Nice Guide, really like ya writing style, biatch 
|
Sweden33719 Posts
No, he's right. Mech relies soley on the hellion harass, or else, as he said roach muta will face roll you.
Its a little bit true I guess, but I think TvZ is that way always - you either do SOMETHING to him or you can just forget about winning.
I disagree about the need for it being a completely crippling blow tho, I think on a lot of maps (the ones you should consider going mech on), T can force a pretty favorable late game split map. I.E dont try this shit on Tal'darim, but Shakuras isnt so bad.
Mech is like that in every matchup sadly, going from very obviously so (mech against protoss lol), to the less obvious (TvT vs bio, tvt vs bio tank, tvz).
|
On August 16 2011 06:29 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +No, he's right. Mech relies soley on the hellion harass, or else, as he said roach muta will face roll you.
Its a little bit true I guess, but I think TvZ is that way always - you either do SOMETHING to him or you can just forget about winning. I disagree about the need for it being a completely crippling blow tho, I think on a lot of maps (the ones you should consider going mech on), T can force a pretty favorable late game split map. I.E dont try this shit on Tal'darim, but Shakuras isnt so bad.
Jinro you just made me feel so smart! I was thinking this earlier after reading peoples comments. What you say is true. Anything from tech heavy one base builds with a late expand, The big tank marine timing after a two rax, or drop centric play. The terran always needs to get some damage in on the zerg in the mid-game to have any sort of reasonable position in the late game. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. Much respect
|
On August 16 2011 06:29 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +No, he's right. Mech relies soley on the hellion harass, or else, as he said roach muta will face roll you.
Its a little bit true I guess, but I think TvZ is that way always - you either do SOMETHING to him or you can just forget about winning. I disagree about the need for it being a completely crippling blow tho, I think on a lot of maps (the ones you should consider going mech on), T can force a pretty favorable late game split map. I.E dont try this shit on Tal'darim, but Shakuras isnt so bad. Mech is like that in every matchup sadly, going from very obviously so (mech against protoss lol), to the less obvious (TvT vs bio, tvt vs bio tank, tvz).
Wow, Jinro always so active within the community!
When you say "mech is like that" are you talking about how Terran can (and should) force a split map? Because I haven't seen any Terrans doing that in TvP which you say is "obvious"
Thx in advance!
|
On August 16 2011 06:29 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +No, he's right. Mech relies soley on the hellion harass, or else, as he said roach muta will face roll you.
Its a little bit true I guess, but I think TvZ is that way always - you either do SOMETHING to him or you can just forget about winning. I disagree about the need for it being a completely crippling blow tho, I think on a lot of maps (the ones you should consider going mech on), T can force a pretty favorable late game split map. I.E dont try this shit on Tal'darim, but Shakuras isnt so bad. Mech is like that in every matchup sadly, going from very obviously so (mech against protoss lol), to the less obvious (TvT vs bio, tvt vs bio tank, tvz).
Holy Shit Jinrooooooooo, but yeah i guess, I mean pressure needs applied, but I just couldn't get it through my head that you HAD to do damage. Thanks for taking the time to post man, means a lot.
|
On August 15 2011 09:50 fuzzytoad wrote:
I play this style quite a lot on the ladder (mid-master as well), and as zerg, I feel like it pretty much hinges on the blue flame hellion harrass.
If you can't do enough damage with the blue flame hellion I will scout base with my first 8 mutas and then instantly switch to infestors, picking up NP as well. I'll look for turrets being put up and if I feel like there aren't enough I'll just flood mass muta and magic box them over your thors for the win. If you do get the turrets in time/in the right position/amount, I'll just use the mutas for map control against your hellions while getting the infestors. The timing works out to around when you move out so I'll have like 5-6 infestors with mass lings and around 8-12 mutas against the mech army.
I'll also be taking bases 4 and 5 here as well.
Basically before the engagement I will wait for the "hellion poke" to land a fungal, and from there its pretty much over since you will have no answer for my lings. During the engagement I'll NP your thors as well and magic box my mutas over them.
I think typically around this timing your army composition is something like 15 hellions, 6-8 thors, 0-2 tanks, depending on whether or not you get tanks or thors.
Anyways I have no problem holding and from there I'll just have brood lords and win.
This kind of post makes me laugh. I think my shit is better then your shit and here is the scenario where I pwn you. What if he doesn't throw away his hellions. What if your control isn't so spot on and you lose a bunch of drones. What if in the engagment he target fires your infesters with his tanks. And not many meching players push put with less then 4 or 5 tanks because they know infestors will rape them.
|
On August 17 2011 03:14 FluidKMC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 09:50 fuzzytoad wrote:
I play this style quite a lot on the ladder (mid-master as well), and as zerg, I feel like it pretty much hinges on the blue flame hellion harrass.
If you can't do enough damage with the blue flame hellion I will scout base with my first 8 mutas and then instantly switch to infestors, picking up NP as well. I'll look for turrets being put up and if I feel like there aren't enough I'll just flood mass muta and magic box them over your thors for the win. If you do get the turrets in time/in the right position/amount, I'll just use the mutas for map control against your hellions while getting the infestors. The timing works out to around when you move out so I'll have like 5-6 infestors with mass lings and around 8-12 mutas against the mech army.
I'll also be taking bases 4 and 5 here as well.
Basically before the engagement I will wait for the "hellion poke" to land a fungal, and from there its pretty much over since you will have no answer for my lings. During the engagement I'll NP your thors as well and magic box my mutas over them.
I think typically around this timing your army composition is something like 15 hellions, 6-8 thors, 0-2 tanks, depending on whether or not you get tanks or thors.
Anyways I have no problem holding and from there I'll just have brood lords and win.
It seems like he's saying mech isnt viable, which we all know is a lie. The viability of mech isnt in question. You saying that when you outplay your opponent you win, is kind of a dumb thing to say. This kind of post makes me laugh. I think my shit is better then your shit and here is the scenario where I pwn you. What if he doesn't throw away his hellions. What if your control isn't so spot on and you lose a bunch of drones. What if in the engagment he target fires your infesters with his tanks. And not many meching players push put with less then 4 or 5 tanks because they know infestors will rape them.
This kind of post is funny, He's questioning the viability of mech, which is just absurd. Additionally just talking about when he outmicro/macro's his opponent he wins... Herp Derp.
|
On August 15 2011 20:51 Bonkerz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 18:11 Timm wrote:Upgraded mech rapes shit, but getting what upgrades can be confusing if you are still on 1 armory, Usually if i see roach i get armor first, because roaches do sooo much burst DPS, but if i see mass muta getting weapons for your thors is huge, once you get 3-6 thors, mutas just aren't really viable with thor upgrades. Isnt that the wrong way around? Armor reduces one damage from every attack. Roaches do few attacks with a lot of damage per attack. Mutas and lings do a lot of attacks with little damage per attack. Im not sure if attack upgrades are superimportant when fighting muta's because i'm a zerg, but I think your reasoning about armor effectivity is backwards. Very possible, Mid master reasoning, Although I do think attack is pretty big when fighting mutas, but the armor thing im not sure about.
Actually, Thors weapon upgrade against mutas is due to the fact that thor's volley are 4 shots, so each upgrade gets +4. Also, it has spash damage, so you get that extra bonus in there as well
|
On August 17 2011 03:14 FluidKMC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 09:50 fuzzytoad wrote:
I play this style quite a lot on the ladder (mid-master as well), and as zerg, I feel like it pretty much hinges on the blue flame hellion harrass.
If you can't do enough damage with the blue flame hellion I will scout base with my first 8 mutas and then instantly switch to infestors, picking up NP as well. I'll look for turrets being put up and if I feel like there aren't enough I'll just flood mass muta and magic box them over your thors for the win. If you do get the turrets in time/in the right position/amount, I'll just use the mutas for map control against your hellions while getting the infestors. The timing works out to around when you move out so I'll have like 5-6 infestors with mass lings and around 8-12 mutas against the mech army.
I'll also be taking bases 4 and 5 here as well.
Basically before the engagement I will wait for the "hellion poke" to land a fungal, and from there its pretty much over since you will have no answer for my lings. During the engagement I'll NP your thors as well and magic box my mutas over them.
I think typically around this timing your army composition is something like 15 hellions, 6-8 thors, 0-2 tanks, depending on whether or not you get tanks or thors.
Anyways I have no problem holding and from there I'll just have brood lords and win.
This kind of post makes me laugh. I think my shit is better then your shit and here is the scenario where I pwn you. What if he doesn't throw away his hellions. What if your control isn't so spot on and you lose a bunch of drones. What if in the engagment he target fires your infesters with his tanks. And not many meching players push put with less then 4 or 5 tanks because they know infestors will rape them.
Yep, because micro doesn't factor into a players' skill.
/sarcasm
|
i saw hashe streaming mech vs Z on shakuras twice, it was amazing. its definitely viable and idra did say mech + ghost is unbeatable...but its idra so :D
|
Great guide! I will be keeping an eye on this thread for additional replays as well :D
|
I'm not sure where you guys are coming across my post as being imflammatory or dismissive since I was merely criticizing the fact you relatively downplay the fact that hellion harrass is a big part of mech play. My opinion is that you simply cannot win a mech game without harrassing and contesting map control with hellions, and I thought that emphasis was missing in your guide.
Anyways I'm just letting you know my experience. If you play zergs and somehow have a large number of both tanks and thors at a timing before they have broodlords, then all the more power to you. I can guarantee that if you push out with "4-5 tanks" and the 6-ish thors, a zerg teching to brood lords WILL have them by the time you arrive at their base, unless some economic damage was done earlier with hellions. ZvT is one of my best matchups and my practice partner for terran likes to mech, so I was just giving you some zerg perspective.
Oh and yeah mech+ghost is very hard to deal with. Don't know if its unbeatable but ghosts are definitely a strong late game choice against broodlord infestor.
|
Hey Bonkerz, thanks for the guide and replays. I've been seeing more Terran players meching lately and it's nice to have it broken down by someone, even a non pro. Also, I love that you call that first tank "Chuck". That replay of you losing to muta roach actually showed you dominating in the battles and and beating back the mutas pretty well, but he out-maneuvered you really bad. I noticed that you don't use sensor towers in any of the replays. I love them when I'm playing mech, or even marine tank, against zerg it helps a lot when you aren't very mobile. Well, it helps against all the races when you aren't very mobile.
I know that trump prefers to get an armory before the third factory so that thors can be out in time for mutas, but I noticed that you tended to get the third factory first and get an e-bay for turrets. I like the old drewbie style a lot, where you just keep thors positioned around and only put the turrets down right before you push. That frees up minerals for building up the death ball and taking an earlier third base, while you eventually float some minerals later on anyway so you can put them toward turrets. That reminds me, it really felt like your third base was pretty late in those games, was that intentional?
|
On August 18 2011 13:25 Senorcuidado wrote:
Hey Bonkerz, thanks for the guide and replays. I've been seeing more Terran players meching lately and it's nice to have it broken down by someone, even a non pro. Also, I love that you call that first tank "Chuck". That replay of you losing to muta roach actually showed you dominating in the battles and and beating back the mutas pretty well, but he out-maneuvered you really bad. I noticed that you don't use sensor towers in any of the replays. I love them when I'm playing mech, or even marine tank, against zerg it helps a lot when you aren't very mobile. Well, it helps against all the races when you aren't very mobile.
I know that trump prefers to get an armory before the third factory so that thors can be out in time for mutas, but I noticed that you tended to get the third factory first and get an e-bay for turrets. I like the old drewbie style a lot, where you just keep thors positioned around and only put the turrets down right before you push. That frees up minerals for building up the death ball and taking an earlier third base, while you eventually float some minerals later on anyway so you can put them toward turrets. That reminds me, it really felt like your third base was pretty late in those games, was that intentional?
The late third isnt intentionally, it's game dependant, I usually try to get it around the zerg third tho, so like 10ish minuts, I like to play passivly unless I think that i can push and win, I sit on my ass and expand like crazy. Zergs like to sit on there asses too till T3 so If i can take half the map im in a good spot and yes i need to start using SENSOR Towers and MORE TURRETS because the counter to this build is nonstop nydus and drops.
|
good to hear, sounds like we have the same game plan then 
It's hard to remember, but a single viking early on when you're against infestors (no mutas) is like the biggest hero ever. Clearing out the overlords is important, but it will particularly help alleviate some of the annoying nydus play.
I like the BM in that XC game btw.
"you can leave now"
"grats on terran"
i was rofling :D
|
On August 18 2011 14:49 Senorcuidado wrote:good to hear, sounds like we have the same game plan then It's hard to remember, but a single viking early on when you're against infestors (no mutas) is like the biggest hero ever. Clearing out the overlords is important, but it will particularly help alleviate some of the annoying nydus play. I like the BM in that XC game btw. "you can leave now" "grats on terran" i was rofling :D
YYeah im BM sorry
|
Watched every replay, the marine helion opening is not strong vs top z's, unless the overdrone- also, it is hard countered by a roach timing. I don't care the 'theory' it is quite clear that "your" style here will not work against top zergs. Again, I'm not just nay-saying, I have my own standards based partially on goody, myself, and the theory of mech.
The "late game" versus this guy was rather easy, bad creep spread, bunched up infestors EVERY time, 62 drones, lets you pick off his third with more than enough units (the real "win").
BTW if he built ANY corrupters you lost the game- luckily he was terrible and morphed every corrupter into broods.
I advise "coining" some replays against top players before releasing a "definitive" guide which is lacking depth.
PS: When you face a higher level zerg and you build that many marines, a +1 carapace upgrade into mass roach or roast infestor gives the zerg total control. I advise watching some replays of Goody, or my guide that I'm going to release once I figure out if I can stream again.
Sorry - I am a bit spoiled when it comes to mech theory, working on a replay pack with about 25+ replays against top Zergs. Anyone who wants a small replay pack of my mech style can PM me, I win 80+% against top GM zergs.
|
On August 19 2011 09:34 JediGamer wrote:
Watched every replay, the marine helion opening is not strong vs top z's, unless the overdrone- also, it is hard countered by a roach timing. I don't care the 'theory' it is quite clear that "your" style here will not work against top zergs. Again, I'm not just nay-saying, I have my own standards based partially on goody, myself, and the theory of mech.
The "late game" versus this guy was rather easy, bad creep spread, bunched up infestors EVERY time, 62 drones, lets you pick off his third with more than enough units (the real "win").
BTW if he built ANY corrupters you lost the game- luckily he was terrible and morphed every corrupter into broods.
I advise "coining" some replays against top players before releasing a "definitive" guide which is just rather gimmicky.
PS: When you face a higher level zerg and you build that many marines, a +1 carapace upgrade into mass roach or roast infestor gives the zerg total control. I advise watching some replays of Goody and possibly Avilo (Haven't seen him, going to DL some later todaY).
Sorry - I am a bit spoiled when it comes to mech theory, working on a replay pack with about 25+ replays against top Zergs. Anyone who wants a small replay pack of my mech style can PM me, I win 80+% against top GM zergs.
This, I watched all the reps myself, the zergs played kind of bad, and you should totally check out GoOdy reps, he is the motherfucking Panzer General.
To expand just a tiny bit on the theory, this quote is from a recent interview with GoOdy
"You must have very good timings and information, otherwise it is very easy to lose."
http://www.twitch.tv/polarfluke/b/292038264 thats video interview, part 4 about 51 mins in.
|
I burst out laughing at the hydra spoiler.
Great guide.
|
Usually if i see roach i get armor first, because roaches do sooo much burst DPS
This doesn't make sense. you get armor versus splash and fast attacking units. Roaches aren't effected by armor all that much.
|
On August 19 2011 09:34 JediGamer wrote:
Watched every replay, the marine helion opening is not strong vs top z's, unless the overdrone- also, it is hard countered by a roach timing. I don't care the 'theory' it is quite clear that "your" style here will not work against top zergs. Again, I'm not just nay-saying, I have my own standards based partially on goody, myself, and the theory of mech.
The "late game" versus this guy was rather easy, bad creep spread, bunched up infestors EVERY time, 62 drones, lets you pick off his third with more than enough units (the real "win").
BTW if he built ANY corrupters you lost the game- luckily he was terrible and morphed every corrupter into broods.
I advise "coining" some replays against top players before releasing a "definitive" guide which is lacking depth.
PS: When you face a higher level zerg and you build that many marines, a +1 carapace upgrade into mass roach or roast infestor gives the zerg total control. I advise watching some replays of Goody, or my guide that I'm going to release once I figure out if I can stream again.
Sorry - I am a bit spoiled when it comes to mech theory, working on a replay pack with about 25+ replays against top Zergs. Anyone who wants a small replay pack of my mech style can PM me, I win 80+% against top GM zergs.
I don't Play top Players, nor will I in the near future, It clearly States that I'm mid masters, this isn't intended for GM players, this is intended for those who aren't as good as you. And I realize that the zergs I play aren't as GOOD as the zergs you play.
|
Awesome guide, I've been struggling to find a good way to execute this style.
|
On August 23 2011 00:47 E.H Eager wrote:
Awesome guide, I've been struggling to find a good way to execute this style.
Thanks! Means a lot.
|
Would really like to see moar replays, especially those that have hellion harrass. My hellion harrass is horrible right now >.>
|
How do you counter mass roaches when going mech? Roaches are just so incredible gas efficient compared to mech so I often end up with lots of minerals but not enough gas to counter his roaches.
Given the both players have the same amount of gas, the Zerg player can have 6 roaches for every tank, or 8 roaches for every Thor.
|
On October 08 2011 19:59 MockHamill wrote:
How do you counter mass roaches when going mech? Roaches are just so incredible gas efficient compared to mech so I often end up with lots of minerals but not enough gas to counter his roaches.
Given the both players have the same amount of gas, the Zerg player can have 6 roaches for every tank, or 8 roaches for every Thor.
A good point. I would like to go further with this if I may.
Thor compared to 8 roaches: Thor costs 300 minerals, 8 roaches cost 600 minerals. Thor takes up 6 supply, 8 roaches take up 16 supply.
Tank compared to 6 roaches (SIDENOTE it's actually 5 roaches for even gas with a tank, but lets assume you are better at math than me and stick with what you said): Tank costs 150 minerals, 6 roaches cost 450 minerals. Tank takes up 3 supply, 6 roaches take up 12 supply. Tanks do bonus damage to armored units, roaches are armored.
Clearly, a meching tarren has a lot to worry about from roaches.
After all, the mech units are a lot cheeper in terms of minerals than the roaches. The tarren might just make tons of command centers with that money and expand across the map. They might even build SCVs to repair the mech.
Also, there is the supply difference to look at. With the large disparity in supply, a tarren maxed army could overwhelmingly annihilate a maxed roach ball.
... yeah...
I'm kinda tired of hearing tarren complain about roaches versus mech. Thats almost as stupid as paper complaining about rock being OP.
|
Hi Bonkerz,
I just came by this build, which still seems viable, but I am wondering:
1) has the meta-game evolved beyond this build, or is it still as good ?
2) now that ghosts snipe is all but gone in TvZ (Except vs. Infestors) how do you adapt the build ? it appears you really relied on high ghost numbers in the end game from the messages I read...
tx for the hard work, I appreciate it.
|
On March 27 2012 11:12 liorv wrote:
Hi Bonkerz,
I just came by this build, which still seems viable, but I am wondering:
1) has the meta-game evolved beyond this build, or is it still as good ?
2) now that ghosts snipe is all but gone in TvZ (Except vs. Infestors) how do you adapt the build ? it appears you really relied on high ghost numbers in the end game from the messages I read...
tx for the hard work, I appreciate it.
I wouldn't use this thread for meching in tvz go look around somewhere else, this is super outdated.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
