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On August 15 2011 20:51 Bonkerz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 18:11 Timm wrote:Upgraded mech rapes shit, but getting what upgrades can be confusing if you are still on 1 armory, Usually if i see roach i get armor first, because roaches do sooo much burst DPS, but if i see mass muta getting weapons for your thors is huge, once you get 3-6 thors, mutas just aren't really viable with thor upgrades. Isnt that the wrong way around? Armor reduces one damage from every attack. Roaches do few attacks with a lot of damage per attack. Mutas and lings do a lot of attacks with little damage per attack. Im not sure if attack upgrades are superimportant when fighting muta's because i'm a zerg, but I think your reasoning about armor effectivity is backwards. Very possible, Mid master reasoning, Although I do think attack is pretty big when fighting mutas, but the armor thing im not sure about.
Actually, Thors weapon upgrade against mutas is due to the fact that thor's volley are 4 shots, so each upgrade gets +4. Also, it has spash damage, so you get that extra bonus in there as well
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On August 17 2011 03:14 FluidKMC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 09:50 fuzzytoad wrote:
I play this style quite a lot on the ladder (mid-master as well), and as zerg, I feel like it pretty much hinges on the blue flame hellion harrass.
If you can't do enough damage with the blue flame hellion I will scout base with my first 8 mutas and then instantly switch to infestors, picking up NP as well. I'll look for turrets being put up and if I feel like there aren't enough I'll just flood mass muta and magic box them over your thors for the win. If you do get the turrets in time/in the right position/amount, I'll just use the mutas for map control against your hellions while getting the infestors. The timing works out to around when you move out so I'll have like 5-6 infestors with mass lings and around 8-12 mutas against the mech army.
I'll also be taking bases 4 and 5 here as well.
Basically before the engagement I will wait for the "hellion poke" to land a fungal, and from there its pretty much over since you will have no answer for my lings. During the engagement I'll NP your thors as well and magic box my mutas over them.
I think typically around this timing your army composition is something like 15 hellions, 6-8 thors, 0-2 tanks, depending on whether or not you get tanks or thors.
Anyways I have no problem holding and from there I'll just have brood lords and win.
This kind of post makes me laugh. I think my shit is better then your shit and here is the scenario where I pwn you. What if he doesn't throw away his hellions. What if your control isn't so spot on and you lose a bunch of drones. What if in the engagment he target fires your infesters with his tanks. And not many meching players push put with less then 4 or 5 tanks because they know infestors will rape them.
Yep, because micro doesn't factor into a players' skill.
/sarcasm
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i saw hashe streaming mech vs Z on shakuras twice, it was amazing. its definitely viable and idra did say mech + ghost is unbeatable...but its idra so :D
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Great guide! I will be keeping an eye on this thread for additional replays as well :D
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I'm not sure where you guys are coming across my post as being imflammatory or dismissive since I was merely criticizing the fact you relatively downplay the fact that hellion harrass is a big part of mech play. My opinion is that you simply cannot win a mech game without harrassing and contesting map control with hellions, and I thought that emphasis was missing in your guide.
Anyways I'm just letting you know my experience. If you play zergs and somehow have a large number of both tanks and thors at a timing before they have broodlords, then all the more power to you. I can guarantee that if you push out with "4-5 tanks" and the 6-ish thors, a zerg teching to brood lords WILL have them by the time you arrive at their base, unless some economic damage was done earlier with hellions. ZvT is one of my best matchups and my practice partner for terran likes to mech, so I was just giving you some zerg perspective.
Oh and yeah mech+ghost is very hard to deal with. Don't know if its unbeatable but ghosts are definitely a strong late game choice against broodlord infestor.
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Hey Bonkerz, thanks for the guide and replays. I've been seeing more Terran players meching lately and it's nice to have it broken down by someone, even a non pro. Also, I love that you call that first tank "Chuck". That replay of you losing to muta roach actually showed you dominating in the battles and and beating back the mutas pretty well, but he out-maneuvered you really bad. I noticed that you don't use sensor towers in any of the replays. I love them when I'm playing mech, or even marine tank, against zerg it helps a lot when you aren't very mobile. Well, it helps against all the races when you aren't very mobile.
I know that trump prefers to get an armory before the third factory so that thors can be out in time for mutas, but I noticed that you tended to get the third factory first and get an e-bay for turrets. I like the old drewbie style a lot, where you just keep thors positioned around and only put the turrets down right before you push. That frees up minerals for building up the death ball and taking an earlier third base, while you eventually float some minerals later on anyway so you can put them toward turrets. That reminds me, it really felt like your third base was pretty late in those games, was that intentional?
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On August 18 2011 13:25 Senorcuidado wrote:
Hey Bonkerz, thanks for the guide and replays. I've been seeing more Terran players meching lately and it's nice to have it broken down by someone, even a non pro. Also, I love that you call that first tank "Chuck". That replay of you losing to muta roach actually showed you dominating in the battles and and beating back the mutas pretty well, but he out-maneuvered you really bad. I noticed that you don't use sensor towers in any of the replays. I love them when I'm playing mech, or even marine tank, against zerg it helps a lot when you aren't very mobile. Well, it helps against all the races when you aren't very mobile.
I know that trump prefers to get an armory before the third factory so that thors can be out in time for mutas, but I noticed that you tended to get the third factory first and get an e-bay for turrets. I like the old drewbie style a lot, where you just keep thors positioned around and only put the turrets down right before you push. That frees up minerals for building up the death ball and taking an earlier third base, while you eventually float some minerals later on anyway so you can put them toward turrets. That reminds me, it really felt like your third base was pretty late in those games, was that intentional?
The late third isnt intentionally, it's game dependant, I usually try to get it around the zerg third tho, so like 10ish minuts, I like to play passivly unless I think that i can push and win, I sit on my ass and expand like crazy. Zergs like to sit on there asses too till T3 so If i can take half the map im in a good spot and yes i need to start using SENSOR Towers and MORE TURRETS because the counter to this build is nonstop nydus and drops.
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good to hear, sounds like we have the same game plan then 
It's hard to remember, but a single viking early on when you're against infestors (no mutas) is like the biggest hero ever. Clearing out the overlords is important, but it will particularly help alleviate some of the annoying nydus play.
I like the BM in that XC game btw.
"you can leave now"
"grats on terran"
i was rofling :D
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On August 18 2011 14:49 Senorcuidado wrote:good to hear, sounds like we have the same game plan then It's hard to remember, but a single viking early on when you're against infestors (no mutas) is like the biggest hero ever. Clearing out the overlords is important, but it will particularly help alleviate some of the annoying nydus play. I like the BM in that XC game btw. "you can leave now" "grats on terran" i was rofling :D
YYeah im BM sorry
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Watched every replay, the marine helion opening is not strong vs top z's, unless the overdrone- also, it is hard countered by a roach timing. I don't care the 'theory' it is quite clear that "your" style here will not work against top zergs. Again, I'm not just nay-saying, I have my own standards based partially on goody, myself, and the theory of mech.
The "late game" versus this guy was rather easy, bad creep spread, bunched up infestors EVERY time, 62 drones, lets you pick off his third with more than enough units (the real "win").
BTW if he built ANY corrupters you lost the game- luckily he was terrible and morphed every corrupter into broods.
I advise "coining" some replays against top players before releasing a "definitive" guide which is lacking depth.
PS: When you face a higher level zerg and you build that many marines, a +1 carapace upgrade into mass roach or roast infestor gives the zerg total control. I advise watching some replays of Goody, or my guide that I'm going to release once I figure out if I can stream again.
Sorry - I am a bit spoiled when it comes to mech theory, working on a replay pack with about 25+ replays against top Zergs. Anyone who wants a small replay pack of my mech style can PM me, I win 80+% against top GM zergs.
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On August 19 2011 09:34 JediGamer wrote:
Watched every replay, the marine helion opening is not strong vs top z's, unless the overdrone- also, it is hard countered by a roach timing. I don't care the 'theory' it is quite clear that "your" style here will not work against top zergs. Again, I'm not just nay-saying, I have my own standards based partially on goody, myself, and the theory of mech.
The "late game" versus this guy was rather easy, bad creep spread, bunched up infestors EVERY time, 62 drones, lets you pick off his third with more than enough units (the real "win").
BTW if he built ANY corrupters you lost the game- luckily he was terrible and morphed every corrupter into broods.
I advise "coining" some replays against top players before releasing a "definitive" guide which is just rather gimmicky.
PS: When you face a higher level zerg and you build that many marines, a +1 carapace upgrade into mass roach or roast infestor gives the zerg total control. I advise watching some replays of Goody and possibly Avilo (Haven't seen him, going to DL some later todaY).
Sorry - I am a bit spoiled when it comes to mech theory, working on a replay pack with about 25+ replays against top Zergs. Anyone who wants a small replay pack of my mech style can PM me, I win 80+% against top GM zergs.
This, I watched all the reps myself, the zergs played kind of bad, and you should totally check out GoOdy reps, he is the motherfucking Panzer General.
To expand just a tiny bit on the theory, this quote is from a recent interview with GoOdy
"You must have very good timings and information, otherwise it is very easy to lose."
http://www.twitch.tv/polarfluke/b/292038264 thats video interview, part 4 about 51 mins in.
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I burst out laughing at the hydra spoiler.
Great guide.
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Usually if i see roach i get armor first, because roaches do sooo much burst DPS
This doesn't make sense. you get armor versus splash and fast attacking units. Roaches aren't effected by armor all that much.
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On August 19 2011 09:34 JediGamer wrote:
Watched every replay, the marine helion opening is not strong vs top z's, unless the overdrone- also, it is hard countered by a roach timing. I don't care the 'theory' it is quite clear that "your" style here will not work against top zergs. Again, I'm not just nay-saying, I have my own standards based partially on goody, myself, and the theory of mech.
The "late game" versus this guy was rather easy, bad creep spread, bunched up infestors EVERY time, 62 drones, lets you pick off his third with more than enough units (the real "win").
BTW if he built ANY corrupters you lost the game- luckily he was terrible and morphed every corrupter into broods.
I advise "coining" some replays against top players before releasing a "definitive" guide which is lacking depth.
PS: When you face a higher level zerg and you build that many marines, a +1 carapace upgrade into mass roach or roast infestor gives the zerg total control. I advise watching some replays of Goody, or my guide that I'm going to release once I figure out if I can stream again.
Sorry - I am a bit spoiled when it comes to mech theory, working on a replay pack with about 25+ replays against top Zergs. Anyone who wants a small replay pack of my mech style can PM me, I win 80+% against top GM zergs.
I don't Play top Players, nor will I in the near future, It clearly States that I'm mid masters, this isn't intended for GM players, this is intended for those who aren't as good as you. And I realize that the zergs I play aren't as GOOD as the zergs you play.
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Awesome guide, I've been struggling to find a good way to execute this style.
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On August 23 2011 00:47 E.H Eager wrote:
Awesome guide, I've been struggling to find a good way to execute this style.
Thanks! Means a lot.
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Would really like to see moar replays, especially those that have hellion harrass. My hellion harrass is horrible right now >.>
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How do you counter mass roaches when going mech? Roaches are just so incredible gas efficient compared to mech so I often end up with lots of minerals but not enough gas to counter his roaches.
Given the both players have the same amount of gas, the Zerg player can have 6 roaches for every tank, or 8 roaches for every Thor.
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On October 08 2011 19:59 MockHamill wrote:
How do you counter mass roaches when going mech? Roaches are just so incredible gas efficient compared to mech so I often end up with lots of minerals but not enough gas to counter his roaches.
Given the both players have the same amount of gas, the Zerg player can have 6 roaches for every tank, or 8 roaches for every Thor.
A good point. I would like to go further with this if I may.
Thor compared to 8 roaches: Thor costs 300 minerals, 8 roaches cost 600 minerals. Thor takes up 6 supply, 8 roaches take up 16 supply.
Tank compared to 6 roaches (SIDENOTE it's actually 5 roaches for even gas with a tank, but lets assume you are better at math than me and stick with what you said): Tank costs 150 minerals, 6 roaches cost 450 minerals. Tank takes up 3 supply, 6 roaches take up 12 supply. Tanks do bonus damage to armored units, roaches are armored.
Clearly, a meching tarren has a lot to worry about from roaches.
After all, the mech units are a lot cheeper in terms of minerals than the roaches. The tarren might just make tons of command centers with that money and expand across the map. They might even build SCVs to repair the mech.
Also, there is the supply difference to look at. With the large disparity in supply, a tarren maxed army could overwhelmingly annihilate a maxed roach ball.
... yeah...
I'm kinda tired of hearing tarren complain about roaches versus mech. Thats almost as stupid as paper complaining about rock being OP.
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Hi Bonkerz,
I just came by this build, which still seems viable, but I am wondering:
1) has the meta-game evolved beyond this build, or is it still as good ?
2) now that ghosts snipe is all but gone in TvZ (Except vs. Infestors) how do you adapt the build ? it appears you really relied on high ghost numbers in the end game from the messages I read...
tx for the hard work, I appreciate it.
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EPT
