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Russian Federation473 Posts
On November 15 2011 01:57 KrSuma wrote:
Hi guys.
Im having a lot of problems versus P after the patch 1.4.2 and most of the matches I have against then turns into a loss.
Ive been doing 1 Rax FE followed by drops and ghosts but gives me such a hard time.
Is there any recommended build versus P nowdays? 1-1-1 maybe?
upgrade cost buff is having a toll on me I believe.
upgrade cost change isn't game-changing, but emp nerf is.
with their shields up and some templars' support, protoss units in the colossus-centered deathball are so much stronger than mmmvg that they will simply step over you like your troops were paper.
pros will adapt eventually and have a slim chance to win by perfect ghost control, concave, split, dodging and kiting, but we (99 % of the terrans) are basically screwed in the late game.
as for the good all-in, well there are some, the easiest is probably 2-port banshee.
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What are some good builds for a gold-level terran?
Also, how do I effectively spend my money late game as terran?
I've been doing Marauder First FE against protoss, but Zealot + Sentry just roflstomps over my bases. Is this normal?
When is the appropriate time to transition to ghosts TvZ and TvP?
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Russian Federation473 Posts
On November 15 2011 15:37 gamecrazy wrote:Mid Masters Terran here. I'm struggling so bloody much in TvZ. This matchup is solo tanking my mmr. My TvP has like a 70% wr and my TvT nearly 100%. TvZ is an abysmal 10%. I open reactor hellion EVERY game. I lose to EVERY single possible play style from zerg. It could be mass roach midgame. It could be mass zergling. I don't want people to tell me to stop using reactor hellion. I tend to open with it quite successfully. I immediately grab a command center while the reactor and factory are building and go for a fast expand after my first 4 hellions are out. All the while, I poke with hellions, careful not to lose them and deny creep spread. I switch the reactor back to the barracks and go for straight marine tank, quickly going for a 3rd by about 10 minutes. If mutas, are incoming, I scan and put up turrets. Otherwise I just go into a straight marine tank midgame. Often, I push out across the map to try to kill the Zerg's 3rd while getting up my own CC in my natural to float over to my 3rd. After taking a 3rd, I worry so much over when to push, and the appropriate unit comp, I either float minerals like crazy or COMPLETELY blunder an engagement. Sometimes both. And there's no forgiveness after that. The game is simply over. The zerg can pin me on 3/4 base, and get Hive, and even if I'm maxed out I will die to the flood of ultras/lings/mutas/w/e that zerg decides to kill me with. I tend to keep up on upgrades and try to get ghosts to my comp, but I never seem to get that big enough ball of ghosts to emp/snipe everything before just flat out dying. I've also tried going Mech, and I end up dying to BL's (even after getting to 200/200) and pushing his 3rd and wiping off everything but his main and nat off the map. Basically, I would like to know what is the best way to transition after reactor hellion expo and actually apply pressure to zerg without committing. Often times, a huge swarm of lings or roaches FORCES me to trade armies. Trading armies always ends up costing me the game. Here's an example replay. http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)FTWZagugli_vs_(T)gamecrazy/15786
i'm worse than you (high diamond) but i feel that zergies are beatable if you read them and make right decisions.
there are two relatively unusual army compositions that in my experience are effective and not as fragile and micro-intensive as tank-marine:
-pure mech
-thor banshee
with pure mech you have to just play defensively, continuously grab bases and get enough anti-broodlord support (vikings, ravens or ghosts, depending on your preference). as long as you turtle well you will trade forces so cost effectively that zergies' economic advantage will be irrelevant.
against broodlords just always have a planetary to fall back to, enough thors and scvs on auto-repair. thors with good upgrades do well against broodlords, you just need some support to swing the battle in your favor - vikings, ghosts or seeker missiles are great for it. spread, focus fire, focus repair, have some hellions behind your thors to roast broodlings - if you're good against toss you must have very good unit control.
remember that his resources are also limited and if he has many bls, he won't have that many roaches, infestors or ultralisks, so you don't need many tanks.
by the way spread your thors against ultralisks and banelings, it also helps a lot!
with thor+banshee it's more tricky and more risky, but sometimes it's a bo win, if he goes pure ground (like ling infestor into ultralisk). if he goes mutas you have to balance the thor/banshee ratio perfectly in order not to die to either ground or air.
the most dangerous combo from him you can face in this scenario is roaches+flying roaches (corruptors), it'll most likely kill you.
with this style you can harass very effectively, for both hellions and banshees are extremely dangerous and mobile.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
On November 15 2011 16:34 Corridor wrote:
What are some good builds for a gold-level terran?
Also, how do I effectively spend my money late game as terran?
I've been doing Marauder First FE against protoss, but Zealot + Sentry just roflstomps over my bases. Is this normal?
When is the appropriate time to transition to ghosts TvZ and TvP?
well mass marines+medivacs should kill any protoss force without colossi or storms easily (well perfect forcefields, mass immortals and perfect blink stalker control can beat mass marines but i don't think it'll be the case in the gold league).
i also wouldn't recommend to transition into ghosts, just build more fighting units.
as for money spending, just build more barracks, factories or starports - select a bunch of scvs and shift-click some buildings. come back to them a minute later and put them on a control group - and suddenly you can spend much more resources and have much more stuff =)
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Given that you have a Terran deathball containing MMM + Ghost + Ravens, going against standard Protoss deathball containing Zealots + Stalkers + Collosus/High-Templars, besides pre-emptively EMPing the HTs, which order of abilities would be most efficient / effective?
EMP the rest of the Protoss Army
Stim
Point Defense Drones
Normally, I would do PDD (since Ravens are targetted down first), then EMP (so that Stimmed Marines + Marauders will start to damage Protoss unit's armor), then Stim. I was wondering how others would do this.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On November 14 2011 11:36 Grndr101 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 11:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 14 2011 09:36 Grndr101 wrote:So I was playing TvP on broken temple. My opponent doesn't go for some kind of fast expo, so I put up two bunkers. Yay I think, except he's warping in, in the back of my base. My question is: how do you stop the 4gate robo? Bunkers won't help you except if you know for a fact he's going warp prism tech and not immortals. Then I guess you could bunker up your main as well with one bunker and that would maybe stop it. You obviously can't scout it effectively since he's getting map control with zeal/stalker pressure. Just a little clueless i guess. And no I haven't been watching tournament matches lately so if the 1rax FE has become unviable I'm unaware of it. Here is the replay: http://drop.sc/58560Appreciate all help. EDIT: I named the file 3gate robo, but it's 4gate robo. You could have defended this easily if you had unloaded your 4 Marines in your bunker at the natural and attacked with ALL your troops together (and some SCVs) in the first clash. If you send your defending army in small bits, he will of course be able to hold off wave after wave. Do not be afraid to pull more SCVs if needed, you have two OCs and he's all-in anyway (4GR on one base). His push was rather weak, but you really need to gather all your forces and react frankly with everything you have at this point. About SCV scouting, you need to sneak them in (i. e. send them near borders); otherwise, simply scan his natural around 6'30 to know whether or not he's all-in. In this regard, your SCV scout was a bit late. No expo after 630 means an allin? That's good to know. And yes I rewatched the replay, I should've sent all of my army at once. I don't think however that the 4 marines in a bunker were a mistake(it was deliberate at the time), because if he gets two zealots into my nat I'm in trouble. It's tough gauging wether they send all their units via warpprism or do a double phronged attack. Thx for the feedback, if anyone else wants to comment please do.
My thoughts:
3:30 -- low-grounding this CC is an unnecessary risk
3:40 -- 2nd gas: this fast gas means "safe expand" or "1 base tech"
You don't do anything to scout him again until 7:00, and it's a worker scout that is denied. You never scan his base, and never check for his natural-- so it's "natural" you're surprised by the attack. Any sort of scouting at all would have revealed it's a 1-base all-in.
Once the all-in comes, pull all the scvs in your main, and empty both bunkers, not just one.
Really the main thing here was you took a risky expansion, and had no idea what the protoss was doing, and made no legitimate efforts to find out. use scanner sweep if you have to-- check to see if he's expanded or not.
On November 15 2011 18:46 BirdKiller wrote:
Given that you have a Terran deathball containing MMM + Ghost + Ravens, going against standard Protoss deathball containing Zealots + Stalkers + Collosus/High-Templars, besides pre-emptively EMPing the HTs, which order of abilities would be most efficient / effective?
EMP the rest of the Protoss Army
Stim
Point Defense Drones
Normally, I would do PDD (since Ravens are targetted down first), then EMP (so that Stimmed Marines + Marauders will start to damage Protoss unit's armor), then Stim. I was wondering how others would do this.
EMP asap-- its effectiveness sharply decerases as the fight goes on, since it only damages the "front half" of stalker and sentry durability-- the shields. also stim asap since you need as much dps as possible. use the rest of your emps as they become available (some of his army may be behind, etc).
PDD doesn't need to be rushed unless you anticipate him running out of projectile units quickly. If you find your ravens being sniped, keep them in the back-- it's not like they have attacks they need to do anyways, so keeping them in a safer location is fine.
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On November 15 2011 19:45 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 18:46 BirdKiller wrote:
Given that you have a Terran deathball containing MMM + Ghost + Ravens, going against standard Protoss deathball containing Zealots + Stalkers + Collosus/High-Templars, besides pre-emptively EMPing the HTs, which order of abilities would be most efficient / effective?
EMP the rest of the Protoss Army
Stim
Point Defense Drones
Normally, I would do PDD (since Ravens are targetted down first), then EMP (so that Stimmed Marines + Marauders will start to damage Protoss unit's armor), then Stim. I was wondering how others would do this.
EMP asap-- its effectiveness sharply decerases as the fight goes on, since it only damages the "front half" of stalker and sentry durability-- the shields. also stim asap since you need as much dps as possible. use the rest of your emps as they become available (some of his army may be behind, etc). PDD doesn't need to be rushed unless you anticipate him running out of projectile units quickly. If you find your ravens being sniped, keep them in the back-- it's not like they have attacks they need to do anyways, so keeping them in a safer location is fine.
To add to this, if I was Terran I'd be inclined to actually lead into the fight with Ghosts. Ghost EMP out-ranges anything in the Protoss army aside from, I believe, carriers which are kiting. Therefore assuming you have sight of his army (scans should help with that) you ought to be able to EMP anything and everything before he can react. Drives me absolutely crazy when Terrans I face do this. 
However if you tried to PDD first they could just move and engage away from them. And if you try to stim then you're wasting DPS on shields that you're going to EMP down anyway.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
On November 15 2011 22:44 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 19:45 Blazinghand wrote:On November 15 2011 18:46 BirdKiller wrote:
Given that you have a Terran deathball containing MMM + Ghost + Ravens, going against standard Protoss deathball containing Zealots + Stalkers + Collosus/High-Templars, besides pre-emptively EMPing the HTs, which order of abilities would be most efficient / effective?
EMP the rest of the Protoss Army
Stim
Point Defense Drones
Normally, I would do PDD (since Ravens are targetted down first), then EMP (so that Stimmed Marines + Marauders will start to damage Protoss unit's armor), then Stim. I was wondering how others would do this.
EMP asap-- its effectiveness sharply decerases as the fight goes on, since it only damages the "front half" of stalker and sentry durability-- the shields. also stim asap since you need as much dps as possible. use the rest of your emps as they become available (some of his army may be behind, etc). PDD doesn't need to be rushed unless you anticipate him running out of projectile units quickly. If you find your ravens being sniped, keep them in the back-- it's not like they have attacks they need to do anyways, so keeping them in a safer location is fine. To add to this, if I was Terran I'd be inclined to actually lead into the fight with Ghosts. Ghost EMP out-ranges anything in the Protoss army aside from, I believe, carriers which are kiting. Therefore assuming you have sight of his army (scans should help with that) you ought to be able to EMP anything and everything before he can react. Drives me absolutely crazy when Terrans I face do this. However if you tried to PDD first they could just move and engage away from them. And if you try to stim then you're wasting DPS on shields that you're going to EMP down anyway.
except that these little blue devils stay behind colossi and rain down storms on your marauders as you try to run in and kill these eradicator triquadripods.
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On November 15 2011 15:37 gamecrazy wrote:
Mid Masters Terran here.
I'm struggling so bloody much in TvZ. This matchup is solo tanking my mmr. My TvP has like a 70% wr and my TvT nearly 100%. TvZ is an abysmal 10%.
Macro is your main problem. Your army production is not constant, you took your natural's gas too fast (you can't go 10' push AND fast upgrades, you have to choose), you don't build Reactor on your extra Barracks, etc. As a result, your first push was weak (you should have something around 25 Marines and 3 Tanks at this time; you had 18 and 1). Just watch the replay again focusing on your main base : you will see many small periods of time in which you're building nothing with some of or all your production facilities. This and not having Reactors on your rax 4 & 5 means you simply don't have enough Marines to deal with the Zerg production, even if he was rather painful to watch (no speedbane before 16'...).
Your second push was also unnecessary. If your first push is cleaned, you're most of the time in an awkward position. Sending again your army to death is not the right thing to do, simply stay in your base, produce and go out when you have enough tanks (pushing with only one tank is never a good idea).
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On November 15 2011 23:11 Ganseng wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 22:44 Lightspeaker wrote:On November 15 2011 19:45 Blazinghand wrote:On November 15 2011 18:46 BirdKiller wrote:
Given that you have a Terran deathball containing MMM + Ghost + Ravens, going against standard Protoss deathball containing Zealots + Stalkers + Collosus/High-Templars, besides pre-emptively EMPing the HTs, which order of abilities would be most efficient / effective?
EMP the rest of the Protoss Army
Stim
Point Defense Drones
Normally, I would do PDD (since Ravens are targetted down first), then EMP (so that Stimmed Marines + Marauders will start to damage Protoss unit's armor), then Stim. I was wondering how others would do this.
EMP asap-- its effectiveness sharply decerases as the fight goes on, since it only damages the "front half" of stalker and sentry durability-- the shields. also stim asap since you need as much dps as possible. use the rest of your emps as they become available (some of his army may be behind, etc). PDD doesn't need to be rushed unless you anticipate him running out of projectile units quickly. If you find your ravens being sniped, keep them in the back-- it's not like they have attacks they need to do anyways, so keeping them in a safer location is fine. To add to this, if I was Terran I'd be inclined to actually lead into the fight with Ghosts. Ghost EMP out-ranges anything in the Protoss army aside from, I believe, carriers which are kiting. Therefore assuming you have sight of his army (scans should help with that) you ought to be able to EMP anything and everything before he can react. Drives me absolutely crazy when Terrans I face do this. However if you tried to PDD first they could just move and engage away from them. And if you try to stim then you're wasting DPS on shields that you're going to EMP down anyway. except that these little blue devils stay behind colossi and rain down storms on your marauders as you try to run in and kill these eradicator triquadripods.
He's asking about the order for EMP/Stim/PDD though. If HTs are hiding behind Colossi then you are probably going to get stormed regardless of which of those you put down first; but I think EMP first offers the best chance. Especially you have cloak and he doesn't have a detector. 
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Guys in TvT is 1 rax FE risky if you spawn at close by air positions? Had a game on shattered temple and lost simply because his banshee hit as I was claiming the watch tower (which in hindsight, huge mistake). However, regardless of that mistake, had I had all my marines in my base I realise I had at most 6 marines (with stim just started not long ago).
This all happened while I was playing on a public account at a LAN shop. Silver League. Mechanically, I'm a lot better than that. (Have a friend who's NA Platinum and in our 20+/- matches against each other (TvT) I've never lost a single game.) So should I just play safer builds with quicker tech and get a quick Viking while I play on that account? (Played 4 TvTs so far. In every game at one point or another banshees showed up. ZZZZ)
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On November 15 2011 23:50 S_SienZ wrote:
Guys in TvT is 1 rax FE risky if you spawn at close by air positions? Had a game on shattered temple and lost simply because his banshee hit as I was claiming the watch tower (which in hindsight, huge mistake). However, regardless of that mistake, had I had all my marines in my base I realise I had at most 6 marines (with stim just started not long ago).
This all happened while I was playing on a public account at a LAN shop. Silver League. Mechanically, I'm a lot better than that. (Have a friend who's NA Platinum and in our 20+/- matches against each other (TvT) I've never lost a single game.) So should I just play safer builds with quicker tech and get a quick Viking while I play on that account? (Played 4 TvTs so far. In every game at one point or another banshees showed up. ZZZZ)
With good marine control, 6 marines should be able to deal with a banshee, or at least slow it down in time to get other things out. Watch lots of TvT replays and you will surely see some examples of marines against banshees to understand the dynamic better.
Don't take the watch tower with more than one unit if you are doing a greedy expand build.
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On November 15 2011 23:50 S_SienZ wrote:
Guys in TvT is 1 rax FE risky if you spawn at close by air positions? Had a game on shattered temple and lost simply because his banshee hit as I was claiming the watch tower (which in hindsight, huge mistake). However, regardless of that mistake, had I had all my marines in my base I realise I had at most 6 marines (with stim just started not long ago).
I'd suggest getting fast Combat Shields first so that Banshees need 3 hits to kill your Marines. This way, you can buy enough time to build Turrets.
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On November 15 2011 17:08 Ganseng wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 15:37 gamecrazy wrote:Mid Masters Terran here. I'm struggling so bloody much in TvZ. This matchup is solo tanking my mmr. My TvP has like a 70% wr and my TvT nearly 100%. TvZ is an abysmal 10%. I open reactor hellion EVERY game. I lose to EVERY single possible play style from zerg. It could be mass roach midgame. It could be mass zergling. I don't want people to tell me to stop using reactor hellion. I tend to open with it quite successfully. I immediately grab a command center while the reactor and factory are building and go for a fast expand after my first 4 hellions are out. All the while, I poke with hellions, careful not to lose them and deny creep spread. I switch the reactor back to the barracks and go for straight marine tank, quickly going for a 3rd by about 10 minutes. If mutas, are incoming, I scan and put up turrets. Otherwise I just go into a straight marine tank midgame. Often, I push out across the map to try to kill the Zerg's 3rd while getting up my own CC in my natural to float over to my 3rd. After taking a 3rd, I worry so much over when to push, and the appropriate unit comp, I either float minerals like crazy or COMPLETELY blunder an engagement. Sometimes both. And there's no forgiveness after that. The game is simply over. The zerg can pin me on 3/4 base, and get Hive, and even if I'm maxed out I will die to the flood of ultras/lings/mutas/w/e that zerg decides to kill me with. I tend to keep up on upgrades and try to get ghosts to my comp, but I never seem to get that big enough ball of ghosts to emp/snipe everything before just flat out dying. I've also tried going Mech, and I end up dying to BL's (even after getting to 200/200) and pushing his 3rd and wiping off everything but his main and nat off the map. Basically, I would like to know what is the best way to transition after reactor hellion expo and actually apply pressure to zerg without committing. Often times, a huge swarm of lings or roaches FORCES me to trade armies. Trading armies always ends up costing me the game. Here's an example replay. http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)FTWZagugli_vs_(T)gamecrazy/15786 i'm worse than you (high diamond) but i feel that zergies are beatable if you read them and make right decisions. there are two relatively unusual army compositions that in my experience are effective and not as fragile and micro-intensive as tank-marine: -pure mech -thor banshee with pure mech you have to just play defensively, continuously grab bases and get enough anti-broodlord support (vikings, ravens or ghosts, depending on your preference). as long as you turtle well you will trade forces so cost effectively that zergies' economic advantage will be irrelevant. against broodlords just always have a planetary to fall back to, enough thors and scvs on auto-repair. thors with good upgrades do well against broodlords, you just need some support to swing the battle in your favor - vikings, ghosts or seeker missiles are great for it. spread, focus fire, focus repair, have some hellions behind your thors to roast broodlings - if you're good against toss you must have very good unit control. remember that his resources are also limited and if he has many bls, he won't have that many roaches, infestors or ultralisks, so you don't need many tanks. by the way spread your thors against ultralisks and banelings, it also helps a lot! with thor+banshee it's more tricky and more risky, but sometimes it's a bo win, if he goes pure ground (like ling infestor into ultralisk). if he goes mutas you have to balance the thor/banshee ratio perfectly in order not to die to either ground or air. the most dangerous combo from him you can face in this scenario is roaches+flying roaches (corruptors), it'll most likely kill you. with this style you can harass very effectively, for both hellions and banshees are extremely dangerous and mobile.
you lost in the first 11 minutes, first of all your hellion micro was Terrible. you lost them pointlessly to slow lings. second of all you have to copy a build order from pros and not just improvise because attacking with 1 tank is suicide. A generall rule of thumb in tvz is that if you lose a push you will lose the game (unless you do significant damage ofc). you didnt.
1) copy a build order (beyond the 4 minute mark)
2) dont suicide hellions
3) get beyond the 13:00 mark without an irrecoverable disadvantage.
4) macro better!!! too much supply blocks
5) manage your upgrades better, you got 2 ebays let them finish their ups and THEN made an armory
6) stop attacking with 1 tank
but your build order is your main problem, too late third, weird barracks control etc.
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What are some good builds for a gold-level terran?
Its always good to have only one build for each matchup, and one general strategy as well. For example, in TvZ I'm always almost going reactor hellion expand now. This allows for map control, and economy.
Also, read the sticky for recommended threads. It's been renewed, so it is still adding more builds, but it is a good starter.
If you feel you are losing to early agression often, look for a more safety oriented build (Like 3 rax. It's a good start for all match ups in the low leagues). If you are losing in macro games, try to figure out if you can play your games shorter with earlier aggression (In lower leagues, often good agressive play can win you games easily).
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On November 16 2011 01:31 DarkCore wrote:Its always good to have only one build for each matchup, and one general strategy as well. For example, in TvZ I'm always almost going reactor hellion expand now. This allows for map control, and economy. Also, read the sticky for recommended threads. It's been renewed, so it is still adding more builds, but it is a good starter. If you feel you are losing to early agression often, look for a more safety oriented build (Like 3 rax. It's a good start for all match ups in the low leagues). If you are losing in macro games, try to figure out if you can play your games shorter with earlier aggression (In lower leagues, often good agressive play can win you games easily).
Thanks for the input! In my case I handle early aggro pretty well (I used to be low diamond zerg) but I usually flop pretty hard late game. I'm currently using the reactor hellion expand for tvz with the occasional 2rax expand and for TvP I go marauder expand.
Few other questions:
How does Terran catch up with Protoss in economy?
How do I effectively deal with forcefield? (before ghosts hit the field)
What is the correct response to Dark Templars? I usually get an engineering bay early on, but most dt rushes come too soon for any turrets to come into play. I usually scan the toss base, but the shrine is usually hidden somewhere un-scannable.
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How does Terran catch up with Protoss in economy?
How do I effectively deal with forcefield? (before ghosts hit the field)
What is the correct response to Dark Templars? I usually get an engineering bay early on, but most dt rushes come too soon for any turrets to come into play. I usually scan the toss base, but the shrine is usually hidden somewhere un-scannable.
1) MULEs should roughly compensate for chrono'ed probes. As for openings, 1 rax FE should be OK even against nexus 15.
2) Hard to give a general answer as it mostly depends on the fighting ground. You should be careful near chokes, though, as they easily allow the Protoss to lock up your units with a few force fields. As a rule, you always want some room to hit & run, so don't engage if you have not said room (forcefields are less powerful in the open as you may have some space to escape).
3) If you suspect some Dark Templar play (early second gas, usually no chrono saved), wall off your main base and keep some energy around the 7' minute mark on your Orbital(s). This way, you can kill the first DTs and build Turrets while Warpgates are on cooldown.
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On November 15 2011 23:50 S_SienZ wrote:
Guys in TvT is 1 rax FE risky if you spawn at close by air positions? Had a game on shattered temple and lost simply because his banshee hit as I was claiming the watch tower (which in hindsight, huge mistake). However, regardless of that mistake, had I had all my marines in my base I realise I had at most 6 marines (with stim just started not long ago).
This all happened while I was playing on a public account at a LAN shop. Silver League. Mechanically, I'm a lot better than that. (Have a friend who's NA Platinum and in our 20+/- matches against each other (TvT) I've never lost a single game.) So should I just play safer builds with quicker tech and get a quick Viking while I play on that account? (Played 4 TvTs so far. In every game at one point or another banshees showed up. ZZZZ)
I wouldn't call it completely safe, but it's definitely manageable. You should have 2-3 turrets up by 6:45 if you see him open gas / no expo, and around 6-10 marines (depending on how you transition from the FE). I actually like opening with my 1rax FE similar to TvP style:
depot
rax
depot
18cc
rax
rax
gas
gas
techlab
stim
don't remember where ebay fits in off the top of my head, but you want the ebay finished by 6:30 at the latest if any banshee play is suspected. You can use the ebay to go for a fast +1 attack as well, then start factory. At some point after you make factory you'll want to make reactors on your 2 naked rax as you tech to medivac. Get 2 medivacs out then start tank production. Start combat shields immediately after stim.
The quick extra barracks after expanding will probably make allins and banshee play easier for you to deal with, rather than adding gas/factory super quickly.
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On November 16 2011 01:49 Corridor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 01:31 DarkCore wrote:Its always good to have only one build for each matchup, and one general strategy as well. For example, in TvZ I'm always almost going reactor hellion expand now. This allows for map control, and economy. Also, read the sticky for recommended threads. It's been renewed, so it is still adding more builds, but it is a good starter. If you feel you are losing to early agression often, look for a more safety oriented build (Like 3 rax. It's a good start for all match ups in the low leagues). If you are losing in macro games, try to figure out if you can play your games shorter with earlier aggression (In lower leagues, often good agressive play can win you games easily). Thanks for the input! In my case I handle early aggro pretty well (I used to be low diamond zerg) but I usually flop pretty hard late game. I'm currently using the reactor hellion expand for tvz with the occasional 2rax expand and for TvP I go marauder expand. Few other questions: How does Terran catch up with Protoss in economy? How do I effectively deal with forcefield? (before ghosts hit the field) What is the correct response to Dark Templars? I usually get an engineering bay early on, but most dt rushes come too soon for any turrets to come into play. I usually scan the toss base, but the shrine is usually hidden somewhere un-scannable.
1. You should generally be starting your 3rd ahead of the protoss. I would say you pretty much always wanna lay down your 3rd command center somewhere between 10-12 minutes, after 13 is really just later than you ever want it to be. As far as early game, whatever build you do, you should be aiming to expand earlier than protoss as well (whether it be a defensive 1rax gasless FE, or a marauder pressure/expo) or do a bit of economic damage (cloak banshee -> expo). You'd need to be more specific for me to provide any more useful advice.
2. Pre-microing your units is one of the most important things of TvP. Due to forcefield and the high dps/fragile nature of both armies (stimmed bio vs AoE units / zealots) it is essential that you never be caught in a bad position and always have your units form as much of an arc around his army as possible. Then he can't forcefield your entire army, and the bits he does can be moved away in some manner. The only exception / situation this changes is against zealot archon, where you want to keep your units relatively concentrated and kite, targeting any archons if they get ahead of the zealots.
3. If you scout 2 early gas and no expansion by ~6-7 minutes, save a scan until you get turrets up, unless you either see 3+ sentries or robo tech out. If he expands somewhere between 6-7 minutes and has few sentries, it could also be a DT expand build (but the key here is few sentries; the normal 3gate expo will have 4-6 sentries.)
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On November 16 2011 02:16 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 23:50 S_SienZ wrote:
Guys in TvT is 1 rax FE risky if you spawn at close by air positions? Had a game on shattered temple and lost simply because his banshee hit as I was claiming the watch tower (which in hindsight, huge mistake). However, regardless of that mistake, had I had all my marines in my base I realise I had at most 6 marines (with stim just started not long ago).
This all happened while I was playing on a public account at a LAN shop. Silver League. Mechanically, I'm a lot better than that. (Have a friend who's NA Platinum and in our 20+/- matches against each other (TvT) I've never lost a single game.) So should I just play safer builds with quicker tech and get a quick Viking while I play on that account? (Played 4 TvTs so far. In every game at one point or another banshees showed up. ZZZZ) I wouldn't call it completely safe, but it's definitely manageable. You should have 2-3 turrets up by 6:45 if you see him open gas / no expo, and around 6-10 marines (depending on how you transition from the FE). I actually like opening with my 1rax FE similar to TvP style: depot rax depot 18cc rax rax gas gas techlab stim don't remember where ebay fits in off the top of my head, but you want the ebay finished by 6:30 at the latest if any banshee play is suspected. You can use the ebay to go for a fast +1 attack as well, then start factory. At some point after you make factory you'll want to make reactors on your 2 naked rax as you tech to medivac. Get 2 medivacs out then start tank production. Start combat shields immediately after stim. The quick extra barracks after expanding will probably make allins and banshee play easier for you to deal with, rather than adding gas/factory super quickly.
Thanks man! Also thanks to the 1st 2 guys who replied. Will definitely keep all these in mind and refine my TvT opening before I hit the ladder next time.
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EPT
