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Russian Federation473 Posts
so fellow terrans hwo are you feeling after 1.4.2?
i feel like the old bad times when we were struggling to figure out how to deal with the deathball of colossi and storms and instant remax in late game are back.
that emps appeared to even out the situation but now with the aoe cut in half we once again have the storms and extended thermal lances in the faces of our rauders...
usually even if i win an engagement instant warp-in of chargelots and morphing archons are enough to prevent any damage to his infrastructure. and then he remaxes quicker.
and if i ever lose a major engagement, it's over.
i' haven't felt so bad about my games for a long time, no matter what i'm doing, the deathball is coming and rolling me over.
it's already driven me in some psychic builds like banshees+marauders but it works only if the toss is unprepared or indecisive.
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Well it has simply made me work much harder to gain an advantage early game so that I can offset the difficulties I have late game. It just means you have to have incredible micro and multi-tasking to take on any protoss that can match you in macro ability. I don't really have those kind of skills, so I resort to anti-timing attacks to catch toss when they are at their weakest. For example just before their first colossus comes out, etc.
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To me the patch is to make terran players have to play more efficiently, and tries to separate out the gap of terrans who "deserve" to win. In pure theory, to make army now and army pre-patch the same, you just need more ghosts. In other words, you just need to work on macro better. Put some work into gas timings and saturation after the 15 minute mark, and find ways to get more ghosts out (if the emp is what's hurting you).
As for dealing with mass chargelot archon, the best advice is to get more marines, get more ghosts, and have good control. your late game rax should be like even split on reactor/tech lab (lots of terrans just get all techlab). I like to have something closer to a 2/3 marine 1/3 marauder, rather than a 1/2 marine 1/2 marauder.
-If you have a ton of resources floating into late game, get a lot of nukes. They're fantastic zoning tools, and you can use them offensively and defensively, as well as heavily tax protoss multitasking. If you think about it, 2 nukes is 1000 damage on structures, which means it kills gateways. Since protoss usually clump them up, if you can pull one off in the lategame, it'll slow production for quite a while. Placing defensive nukes behind your army for your retreat path or right in front of your army constantly is a good way to buy yourself time to remax. This sort of tactic relies on the fact that you have more resources banked, or at least that your income is better and that if you and protoss continually remax and break even, eventually he won't be able to support it and you'll come out on top that way.
tl;dr, stray away from looking at your unit composition, and focus more on keeping up on macro. (upgrades, being up on bases, adding a lot of rax)
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Russian Federation473 Posts
On November 14 2011 04:04 phiinix wrote:
To me the patch is to make terran players have to play more efficiently, and tries to separate out the gap of terrans who "deserve" to win.
i can't express how much i hate this "deserve" logic. if two guys have just build a bunch of units and send them into each other while pressing some hotkeys, one of them "deserves" to win, and the other one not, right?
i don't want to start this discussion about the professional and amateur starcraft, but it's just so annoying that power of the terran race starts to come into play only for the upper 1 % of the players in tvp (notice that i'm not talking about tvz, there you can still win if you just macro properly).
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On November 14 2011 03:21 ( bush wrote:Hello everyone. Can u guys analyse this TxP replay? http://drop.sc/58437I am a low~mid master Terran NA server, and i really dont know how to tvp. any tips? faster third? faster agression? * Should I go Ghost Academy before Starport tech with this new 1.4.2 patch, that buffs mass gateway play? * How to deal with that colossi + stalker + phoenix combo? thx.
You looked solid macro-wise, it was the final engagement that did you in:
- All your army is in a single control group
- You waited a while to stim after the engagement started
- You need more ghosts in a maxed army, enough to EMP everything
- The single ghost you did have didn't use his EMPs even though he had plenty of time to do so
- You engage while your bio is bunched up in a ball against 4 colossi and you don't do much to correct the problem as the engagement continues
- Didn't kite the zealots
- You engaged with 1-1 upgrades even though 2-2 was almost finished. He was already 2-2.
- With that many vikings you want to start ship weapon upgrades as well
I'm not sure what the ideal unit comp is against that many phoenix but I'm thinking more marines and perhaps a single thor. And as mentioned above, ghosts are strong against everything so more ghosts.
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On November 13 2011 11:00 VPFaZe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2011 08:31 humblegar wrote:On November 13 2011 07:32 VPFaZe wrote:
Hey guys, so lately i've been switching races quite a bit, but im still stuck on terran. My problem is that, I don't really have many structured builds. Im in silver. My builds are.
TvT: Marine Tank, with viking medivac support if needed
TvP: Either straight MMM with ghosts, or a 1 rax FE into MMM with ghosts.
TvZ: Reactor hellions into Marine tank and thors.
Any tips on better builds or strats would be great. I really want to get promoted.
Also, I don't have any timing attacks, so i basically just push out when i think i can win. I would suggest starting here: Accelerated learning for mid/low terransNotice this: You should have 50+ food at 6:40 game time with stim done with conc finishing up These kind of builds are great to start improving with because they have specific goals for you to meet. Not just win or not, but did you execute it perfectly or not. You will be surprised at how many small mistakes you can make with that relatively simple build. Is this for every match up? or just some?
If you play a perfect 3-rax like they discuss in that thread you can use it versus all races, at least in silver through gold. Make sure you follow the steps like macroing away from your base and so on, and you will improve.
The thread is pretty self-explanatory. So take a look and decide if you like it or not 
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United Kingdom12024 Posts
On November 14 2011 03:35 Ganseng wrote:
so fellow terrans hwo are you feeling after 1.4.2?
i feel like the old bad times when we were struggling to figure out how to deal with the deathball of colossi and storms and instant remax in late game are back.
that emps appeared to even out the situation but now with the aoe cut in half we once again have the storms and extended thermal lances in the faces of our rauders...
usually even if i win an engagement instant warp-in of chargelots and morphing archons are enough to prevent any damage to his infrastructure. and then he remaxes quicker.
and if i ever lose a major engagement, it's over.
i' haven't felt so bad about my games for a long time, no matter what i'm doing, the deathball is coming and rolling me over.
it's already driven me in some psychic builds like banshees+marauders but it works only if the toss is unprepared or indecisive.
I just have problems with the deathball, but seriously to deal with the remax you just need more rax than them. I've found the only way to deal with it is to always make sure I'm adding more rax when I can afford it just everywhere on the map so they can't camp them all at once. (obviously spread around my bases). As zealots especially with stalkers seem more cost effective than very small bio armies, just having even 1 or 2 more rax than he has gateways can really help.
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What kind of options do I have in TvT as a player who doesn't like to use siege tanks.
atm I am playing a tweaked version of iEchoics 2fact2port (1reactorFact 2port without blueflame) if my early aggression doesn't work out I try to macro into thors and make a hellion/thor/banshee kinda deathball with bits of banshee harass going on, but lately I've been struggling as I think it's quite an easy build to scout.
I remember hearing/reading about an upgraded Thor timing attack where you get armour upgrades on Thors to break thorugh siege tank lines, I think Thorzain did this build but I've had no joy researching it.
I'm the kind of player who likes early aggression and early-mid game timing attacks as I struggle in the late game with multitasking. I was looking at MMA's rax, fact proxy build that he did vs MVP but it seems very cheesy.
thanks
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On November 14 2011 07:51 Marathi wrote:
What kind of options do I have in TvT as a player who doesn't like to use siege tanks.
You can play pure bio.
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I guess I could play some dropstyle MMM with vikings for air support. I play pure bio for my TvZ and TvP aswell so I guess it would only strengthen those playstyles
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So I was playing TvP on broken temple. My opponent doesn't go for some kind of fast expo, so I put up two bunkers. Yay I think, except he's warping in, in the back of my base. My question is: how do you stop the 4gate robo? Bunkers won't help you except if you know for a fact he's going warp prism tech and not immortals. Then I guess you could bunker up your main as well with one bunker and that would maybe stop it.
You obviously can't scout it effectively since he's getting map control with zeal/stalker pressure. Just a little clueless i guess. And no I haven't been watching tournament matches lately so if the 1rax FE has become unviable I'm unaware of it.
Here is the replay: http://drop.sc/58560
Appreciate all help.
EDIT: I named the file 3gate robo, but it's 4gate robo.
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I am completely lost with TvZ, my army feels like it needs so much more attention then theirs, banelings can basically rip my army apart and if i miss a quick look on my mini map it ends with me losing the game if im unseiged. Just seems fragile, i probably should be more agressive but i hate the thought of losing my army due to just swarms of zerglings/banelings
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On November 14 2011 09:53 SharmonHammer wrote:
I am completely lost with TvZ, my army feels like it needs so much more attention then theirs, banelings can basically rip my army apart and if i miss a quick look on my mini map it ends with me losing the game if im unseiged. Just seems fragile, i probably should be more agressive but i hate the thought of losing my army due to just swarms of zerglings/banelings
There used to be a time where I was afraid of zerg as well. But there are a couple of pointers you could keep in mind.
- Drop when his mutas are out of position or aren't made yet
- When you're moving out always send a stimmed marine or medivac first, this might additionally lure his mutas so you can catch them off guard
- When moving out always a couple of tanks first to absorb any surprise baneling attacks
- When attacking, usually it's best to take out an expansion instead of going for the kill
- Siege up at the border of his creep or before, pushing on creep makes it much easier for the zerg to surround or target rines with banelings
- Denying creep allows you more freedom when moving out on the map (which is why I really love the reactored hellion opening)
- Turrets mid-late game are a good option against mutas, even in a forward position
- Upgrades are paramount, 3/3 marines microed well will kill an impressive amount of stuff
So basically a couple things I found helpful. But to more accurately see what problems you have I'd say post a replay.
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On November 14 2011 09:36 Grndr101 wrote:So I was playing TvP on broken temple. My opponent doesn't go for some kind of fast expo, so I put up two bunkers. Yay I think, except he's warping in, in the back of my base. My question is: how do you stop the 4gate robo? Bunkers won't help you except if you know for a fact he's going warp prism tech and not immortals. Then I guess you could bunker up your main as well with one bunker and that would maybe stop it. You obviously can't scout it effectively since he's getting map control with zeal/stalker pressure. Just a little clueless i guess. And no I haven't been watching tournament matches lately so if the 1rax FE has become unviable I'm unaware of it. Here is the replay: http://drop.sc/58560Appreciate all help. EDIT: I named the file 3gate robo, but it's 4gate robo.
You could have defended this easily if you had unloaded your 4 Marines in your bunker at the natural and attacked with ALL your troops together (and some SCVs) in the first clash. If you send your defending army in small bits, he will of course be able to hold off wave after wave. Do not be afraid to pull more SCVs if needed, you have two OCs and he's all-in anyway (4GR on one base). His push was rather weak, but you really need to gather all your forces and react frankly with everything you have at this point.
About SCV scouting, you need to sneak them in (i. e. send them near borders); otherwise, simply scan his natural around 6'30 to know whether or not he's all-in. In this regard, your SCV scout was a bit late.
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On November 14 2011 10:07 Grndr101 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 09:53 SharmonHammer wrote:
I am completely lost with TvZ, my army feels like it needs so much more attention then theirs, banelings can basically rip my army apart and if i miss a quick look on my mini map it ends with me losing the game if im unseiged. Just seems fragile, i probably should be more agressive but i hate the thought of losing my army due to just swarms of zerglings/banelings
There used to be a time where I was afraid of zerg as well. But there are a couple of pointers you could keep in mind. - Drop when his mutas are out of position or aren't made yet - When you're moving out always send a stimmed marine or medivac first, this might additionally lure his mutas so you can catch them off guard - When moving out always a couple of tanks first to absorb any surprise baneling attacks - When attacking, usually it's best to take out an expansion instead of going for the kill- Siege up at the border of his creep or before, pushing on creep makes it much easier for the zerg to surround or target rines with banelings - Denying creep allows you more freedom when moving out on the map (which is why I really love the reactored hellion opening) - Turrets mid-late game are a good option against mutas, even in a forward position - Upgrades are paramount, 3/3 marines microed well will kill an impressive amount of stuff So basically a couple things I found helpful. But to more accurately see what problems you have I'd say post a replay.
If your going for a full push, it's better to place your tanks in between his expansions and send groups of Marines to each individual ones (5~8 Marines and a Medivac usually). That way you can prevent complete base trades, and make it difficult for him to defend the individual expansions being attacked with his army scattered.
But yes, marching forward towards the Zerg's main is always the most dangerous thing you can do as Terran.
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On November 14 2011 11:12 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 09:36 Grndr101 wrote:So I was playing TvP on broken temple. My opponent doesn't go for some kind of fast expo, so I put up two bunkers. Yay I think, except he's warping in, in the back of my base. My question is: how do you stop the 4gate robo? Bunkers won't help you except if you know for a fact he's going warp prism tech and not immortals. Then I guess you could bunker up your main as well with one bunker and that would maybe stop it. You obviously can't scout it effectively since he's getting map control with zeal/stalker pressure. Just a little clueless i guess. And no I haven't been watching tournament matches lately so if the 1rax FE has become unviable I'm unaware of it. Here is the replay: http://drop.sc/58560Appreciate all help. EDIT: I named the file 3gate robo, but it's 4gate robo. You could have defended this easily if you had unloaded your 4 Marines in your bunker at the natural and attacked with ALL your troops together (and some SCVs) in the first clash. If you send your defending army in small bits, he will of course be able to hold off wave after wave. Do not be afraid to pull more SCVs if needed, you have two OCs and he's all-in anyway (4GR on one base). His push was rather weak, but you really need to gather all your forces and react frankly with everything you have at this point. About SCV scouting, you need to sneak them in (i. e. send them near borders); otherwise, simply scan his natural around 6'30 to know whether or not he's all-in. In this regard, your SCV scout was a bit late.
No expo after 630 means an allin? That's good to know.
And yes I rewatched the replay, I should've sent all of my army at once. I don't think however that the 4 marines in a bunker were a mistake(it was deliberate at the time), because if he gets two zealots into my nat I'm in trouble.
It's tough gauging wether they send all their units via warpprism or do a double phronged attack.
Thx for the feedback, if anyone else wants to comment please do.
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Alright. I hate to ask the question, but I'm gonna. What should I do vs. mass Mutalisks that doesn't involve Marines (Crazy, I know). Not to be a pretentious douche, but I'm gonna be a pretentious douche and say that I never go MMM. Ever. Or Marine-Tank. I want to win without people cussing me out at the end of the game, but currently, there don't seem to be any established builds for this.
I've tried unit testers and found that Vikings with armor upgrades can beat Mutas in rather large scale. Don't tell me Thors because any decent Zerg player can magic box. I've considered Ghosts, but they're squishy and not nearly as massable. Any other Terrans feel my sympathy and have solutions?
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On November 14 2011 11:38 Muffinmanifestation wrote:
Alright. I hate to ask the question, but I'm gonna. What should I do vs. mass Mutalisks that doesn't involve Marines (Crazy, I know). Not to be a pretentious douche, but I'm gonna be a pretentious douche and say that I never go MMM. Ever. Or Marine-Tank. I want to win without people cussing me out at the end of the game, but currently, there don't seem to be any established builds for this.
I've tried unit testers and found that Vikings with armor upgrades can beat Mutas in rather large scale. Don't tell me Thors because any decent Zerg player can magic box. I've considered Ghosts, but they're squishy and not nearly as massable. Any other Terrans feel my sympathy and have solutions?
Well, the best thing I can tell you is to play mech then. You won't need need that many marines. Just use turrets until you get critical mass Thors + Vikings later.
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Is there any rule of thumb for how many barracks per base you should have? Also how many factories if you are going mech?
And, what's the timing for Mutalisks? What's the timing to take your third base? What's the standard mech timing against Z? Is mech still viable in TvP?
I'm playing a lot of Terran on my smurf account so that's why I'm asking all these questions. 
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On November 14 2011 10:07 Grndr101 wrote:
- When you're moving out always send a stimmed marine or medivac first, this might additionally lure his mutas so you can catch them off guard
- When moving out always a couple of tanks first to absorb any surprise baneling attacks
Which is it? I'd be careful leading with tanks because they're less expendable than marines and they could get sniped by mutas. A decent Zerg isn't going to run banelings into your tanks anyway. Of course you don't want to lead with a giant ball of marines either, like you said it's best to lead with a small number of stimmed marines or scan ahead.
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EPT
