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I'm not entirely sure if this is relevant at all, but I'll make it so.
When you see Hive coming with a Spire, how many Starports do you usually throw down, and do you add reactors, or just start pumping vikings right away?
Also, versus Terran, should I just stick to 15 CC/1Rax FE? Or can I continue using 1/1/1 Cloak Banshee as one of my openers? I feel like I never do enough damage to catch up, even though I normally kill 6-10 scvs. Also, what's the CC timing of Cloak Banshee anyways? S: I don't know how to transition out of it.
Feel free to skip the next paragraph.
And I guess the other blow off some steam part is: How do you overcome that feeling when you're working you way up to the next bracket of MMR (playing versus Master now ^^) and then you start losing to really stupid stuff, and you suddenly go on a losing streak and feel like crap because you've worked really hard. Iunno haha. I mean like, throughout Plat-Diamond I can get away with 1Rax FE / CC First, but all of a sudden it feels like it's not cutting it. I mean, I did 1Rax FE and lost to a three stalker rush because my bunker stuck at 39/40 and the scv died. :x Is it just me being sloppy?
And I guess, are there any other more aggressive openings vs Protoss? Right now the only one I have is MKP Style 2Rax FE or some all-in proxy stuff. Thanks >.<
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On August 03 2012 13:50 NewDawn wrote:
I'm not entirely sure if this is relevant at all, but I'll make it so.
When you see Hive coming with a Spire, how many Starports do you usually throw down, and do you add reactors, or just start pumping vikings right away?
Personnally, I get +3 Starports with Tech Lab (for Ravens later) or +1/2 Starport(s) with a Reactor.
On August 03 2012 13:50 NewDawn wrote:
Also, versus Terran, should I just stick to 15 CC/1Rax FE? Or can I continue using 1/1/1 Cloak Banshee as one of my openers? I feel like I never do enough damage to catch up, even though I normally kill 6-10 scvs. Also, what's the CC timing of Cloak Banshee anyways? S: I don't know how to transition out of it.
Cloak Banshee openings are viable but you need good micro and multitask to catch up against faster expands. If you scout 1 rax FE from your opponent, cut Marines to get an earlier CC, which should be built shortfly after the first Banshee if I remember correctly (did not do Cloak Banshee expand for a long time...).
On August 03 2012 13:50 NewDawn wrote:
And I guess, are there any other more aggressive openings vs Protoss? Right now the only one I have is MKP Style 2Rax FE or some all-in proxy stuff. Thanks >.<
2 rax reactor/lab, gasless 2 rax (12/14), gasless 3 rax (12/16/17), Hellion drop, Cloak Banshee, ...
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On August 03 2012 13:50 NewDawn wrote:
I'm not entirely sure if this is relevant at all, but I'll make it so.
When you see Hive coming with a Spire, how many Starports do you usually throw down, and do you add reactors, or just start pumping vikings right away?
I play only mech TvZ and very rarely transition to Sky Terran lategame. I always open Hellion/Banshee and my response to Hive with a visible Spire is to throw down 2 extra Starports.
Depending on whether I scout at the right time I'll put reactors on them if I see the Lair->Hive but I won't if i see the Spire->Greater Spire changes.
On August 03 2012 13:50 NewDawn wrote:Also, versus Terran, should I just stick to 15 CC/1Rax FE? Or can I continue using 1/1/1 Cloak Banshee as one of my openers? I feel like I never do enough damage to catch up, even though I normally kill 6-10 scvs. Also, what's the CC timing of Cloak Banshee anyways? S: I don't know how to transition out of it.
TvT is something I've had a lot of trouble with recently because it seems the metagame has shifted to 1base play into expansion (in my experience recently). So I was dying by doing 1 rax FEs as I was having trouble holding off Hellion/Marine and Hellion->Cloakshee.
I now do a reaper expand on most maps (Or 15-gas for non-reaper friendly maps) and aim to go for a hellion/marine/medivac push off of 2 bases with stim, this can do great damage if you catch them in a choke as the metagame has shone away from fast tanks.
After my first push I can then follow it up with either more marine/hellion pressure drops or I can throw a tech lab on my Factory and start siege production as my third is usually building/built along with having 4/5rax with CS/Stim done.
Just to add I'm not saying that 15CC/1raxFE isn't viable because they still completely are and I do them on occasion depending on the map.
On August 03 2012 13:50 NewDawn wrote:Feel free to skip the next paragraph.
And I guess the other blow off some steam part is: How do you overcome that feeling when you're working you way up to the next bracket of MMR (playing versus Master now ^^) and then you start losing to really stupid stuff, and you suddenly go on a losing streak and feel like crap because you've worked really hard. Iunno haha. I mean like, throughout Plat-Diamond I can get away with 1Rax FE / CC First, but all of a sudden it feels like it's not cutting it. I mean, I did 1Rax FE and lost to a three stalker rush because my bunker stuck at 39/40 and the scv died. :x Is it just me being sloppy?
Well you're going vs Masters now and they'll be playing at a different level. Just try and play as safe as you possibly can until you feel your micro/decision making can back up greedy decisions.
On August 03 2012 13:50 NewDawn wrote:And I guess, are there any other more aggressive openings vs Protoss? Right now the only one I have is MKP Style 2Rax FE or some all-in proxy stuff. Thanks >.<
2rax variants (with/without gas), 1/1/1 variants, 2base tank/marine timing, Marine/Hellion, Hellion expand into Hellion drops. All I can think of atm.
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I don't know. I used to 12/14 but I feel like once the stalker pops it just dies. Granted there is a window, but I suck at abusing it. When I was talking about the MKP 2Rax, I meant the 2 raider conc thing. 1tech/1reactor. Is cloak banshee really still viable? I feel like if the toss expands before me I outright lose.
Thanks for the starport tip though !
Edit: for more responding >_<
Generally for TvT I open either 1RaxFe/1or3 reaper expo/cloakshee and more recently experimenting 8rine3hellion drop. I just feel that I need to expo because when I don't , even though I keep up with my macro, eventually I end up dying to a tank push. I'm probably not abusing banshees enough T-T
In the past year, minus that 1/1/1 all in phase , I've never made tanks vs Protoss. Any tips on positioning them ? Or is it like TvT? Should I spread more or less ,etc.
Thanks for being so supportive ^~^
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On August 03 2012 14:16 NewDawn wrote:
I don't know. I used to 12/14 but I feel like once the stalker pops it just dies. Granted there is a window, but I suck at abusing it. When I was talking about the MKP 2Rax, I meant the 2 raider conc thing. 1tech/1reactor. Is cloak banshee really still viable? I feel like if the toss expands before me I outright lose.
Thanks for the starport tip though !
Edit: for more responding >_<
Generally for TvT I open either 1RaxFe/1or3 reaper expo/cloakshee and more recently experimenting 8rine3hellion drop. I just feel that I need to expo because when I don't , even though I keep up with my macro, eventually I end up dying to a tank push. I'm probably not abusing banshees enough T-T
In the past year, minus that 1/1/1 all in phase , I've never made tanks vs Protoss. Any tips on positioning them ? Or is it like TvT? Should I spread more or less ,etc.
Thanks for being so supportive ^~^
If you're going to go all-in with a 12/14 then do the 12/14/18 rax variation. It's a great all-in and much stronger if you pull half your SCVs but with all all-ins I wouldn't recommend doing it if you want to improve.
Cloak Banshee is still viable even though my personal opinion is that the observer build time buff made it into much more micro to kill a few probes than before when it used to be that you'd lose a lot if you didn't have an observer yet.
If you feel that way maybe you should produce a few extra banshees so that when they do come (if they do) you can shark with the banshees to get the tanks making his tanks naked and you can try and get in there with your marines.
Well usually it's like 3/4tanks at most depending on the timing you're trying to hit. It works better the quicker you go but I'd never suggest going with less than 3 tanks. It falls dead to Toss around the point he's getting 100 supply IMO. They don't need to be spread out but you can't be caught unsieged even more so than TvT.
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On August 03 2012 14:16 NewDawn wrote:
I don't know. I used to 12/14 but I feel like once the stalker pops it just dies. Granted there is a window, but I suck at abusing it.
I understand. 12/14 requires good judgement about when to go depending on your opponent's build, when to retreat, how not to overextend, etc. That being said, you have 7 Marines at the 4'30 mark, so you can deal with the first Stalker easily; just have your Marines in a line so most of them fire back when the Stalker attacks. The safer your opponent's build is, the less business you have to do. For instance, unless your opponent makes micro mistakes, you don't have much to do against a Nexus 30 zealot/stalker/stalker opening, but this doesn't matter since you can expand at the 4'30 mark. However, the nice thing is that Nexus first or expands skipping units/delaying Cyber can outright die to 12/14. The other nice thing is that 12/14 is quite versatile: you can proxy the 14 rax or not, pull 0 to all SCVs, single or double expand behind it, etc.
On August 03 2012 14:16 NewDawn wrote:
Is cloak banshee really still viable?
Yes, though I'd advise to double expand if you don't do much damage. Tanks (2 or 3 of them are enough) can protect you from Protoss agression while you transition to bio.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On August 03 2012 13:16 DreadKnight wrote:
Hey, a really simple question here.
What do you guys do when you get random players in the ladder? Personally I really like to 1-1-1 all in because I'm honestly not that confident going a generalised build at all. Usually works against all the races honestly with semi decent banshee control.
All my macro styles revolve around 1 rax FE but different gas timings, especially on 4 player maps I feel just leaves it so risky and way too generalised.
So, what does everyone else do vs random and do you think I should change what I do against them? I usually get a fair amount of hate and generally don't like all-ining outside of a BoX unless I'm practicing them.
Just looking for some quick opinions here, thanks!
I typically open with a 12 rax 13 gas, and go for an early (9) scout. This quickly finds out his race, and gives you an opener off which you can either all in or go for a fast or pressure expo.
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On August 03 2012 14:16 NewDawn wrote:
I don't know. I used to 12/14 but I feel like once the stalker pops it just dies. Granted there is a window, but I suck at abusing it. When I was talking about the MKP 2Rax, I meant the 2 raider conc thing. 1tech/1reactor. Is cloak banshee really still viable? I feel like if the toss expands before me I outright lose.
Thanks for the starport tip though !
Edit: for more responding >_<
Generally for TvT I open either 1RaxFe/1or3 reaper expo/cloakshee and more recently experimenting 8rine3hellion drop. I just feel that I need to expo because when I don't , even though I keep up with my macro, eventually I end up dying to a tank push. I'm probably not abusing banshees enough T-T
In the past year, minus that 1/1/1 all in phase , I've never made tanks vs Protoss. Any tips on positioning them ? Or is it like TvT? Should I spread more or less ,etc.
Thanks for being so supportive ^~^
Tanks vs protoss can be quite powerful, the point of them is that it allows you to be greedy while staying relatively safe. You laugh in the face of most all-ins from protoss. 3 tanks is the magic number, it provides enough firepower and justifies the seige mode upgrade but doesn't commit you too much.
Regarding positioning you need to keep them where they can't be easily sniped, but where they still cover the ramp (and perhaps blink stalker entry points).
Consider a 3 naked rax build, this is similar to the 2rax but hits slightly faster and is easier to expand off of. Also it looks scarier to the toss player who may well 3 gate expand which will be much slower than your expo. The downside is that your tech is delayed, but you can quickly add 3-4 refineries.
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Hi fellow terran
How do you decently micro banshees? They are pretty tricky to micro....
And also why do people say, when its against marines, to kite using Hold position instead of just stop or attack move? Why use hold position?
Any tips about banshee micro welcomed.
Thanks
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On August 03 2012 20:25 dynwar7 wrote:
Hi fellow terran
How do you decently micro banshees? They are pretty tricky to micro....
And also why do people say, when its against marines, to kite using Hold position instead of just stop or attack move? Why use hold position?
Any tips about banshee micro welcomed.
Thanks
Against marines you just want to move them back then target a marine. Make sure you're actually killing marines instead of giving them all half health because that isn't helpful at all.
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I have a lot of problems in my TvP (I lose ~80% of my games).
First problem is I get surprised by Colossi/Storm alot - so is there a good timing to scan for it?
Most of the time I have the better Army-Supply but my Army gets crushed hard? Any tips to win fights with my terrible micro?
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On August 03 2012 21:09 DonSalieri wrote:
I have a lot of problems in my TvP (I lose ~80% of my games).
First problem is I get surprised by Colossi/Storm alot - so is there a good timing to scan for it?
Most of the time I have the better Army-Supply but my Army gets crushed hard? Any tips to win fights with my terrible micro?
If you put on pressure with your bio you should be able to force him to show his tech. Once you know what it is you can counter it. Just be careful to preserve your bio force, be prepared to lift out of forcefields etc, and don't take big risks.
Try to engage at a favourable location, against AOE try to engage in the open with flanks, against chargelots engage in chokes. Use drops to force him to split up his army so it is less powerful.
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Tips for punishing passive zergs?
I'm usually 1 rax FE and I tend to build defensively. Lately on ladder i'm not getting any attacks on me even when I'm taking a 3rd and then the zerg just sits back with infestors and abuses fungal. I've gone for drops, they do some damage but then I'm down 2 full dropships.
What's the plan? Simultaneous drops and push? I feel like my smaller main group gets crushed by mass surrounds fungals when I try this. Maybe more tanks. I've even been toying with the idea of BCs so that he can't mindlessly pump zerglings and might actually have to switch tech.
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Recently switched race(finally) to terran from zerg.
Having some troubles vs Protoss.
Macro/build order wise i feel like i'm doing alright but i'm not actually sure what i'm supposed to do in TvP after the standard 10 min 2 Medivac push.
I felt like i just tech switched to late and i lost some medivacs but maybe i lost because of something else?
Also, what is a terran supposed to do to win? This might sound vague but i mean, Protoss tries to get their ideal composition while defending and maybe doing some warp prism harass, Zerg tries to kill of a protoss 3rd base with lair units or takes a 4th base and techs to BL/infestor.
Does Terran purely rely on timings?(kill before protoss gets a 3rd with high templar AND collosus or something)
Replay
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=268690
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As far as my TvP goes, I find that the longer you wait, the more difficult it gets, but it surely is not impossible. After 10 minutes, that's when you need to become more reactionary. If you see HTs, you need ghosts. If you see Colossi, once you have 3-4 medivacs, start pumping vikings. If you feel weak, add more starports. Also, while it may be more difficult, you need to spread your army onto three hotkeys. 1 MMM / 2 Ghosts/Vikings / 3 Ghosts/Vikings. Being able to control the vikings, then going back to studder step/emp is important in winning fights. Also, set up concaves before hand, and don't be afraid to scan to find out how to position.
Also I find that many Protoss players neglect making back up observers. If you snipe the obs, EMPing gets really easy. Keeping up with your upgrades helps too. I'll watch the replay and add more >.<
Edit: Note taking time.
When I 1Rax FE, I rally the SCV building the barracks to the closest mineral patch so it can mine it and then build the CC faster. Also, I usually skip the 2nd depo, so it's more like, Marine>OC>CC>SCV>Depo>Marine.
You didn't transfer SCVs to your natural!
You're playing blind.
I think you need to work on your gas timings a little.
You still didn't scout anything :X
Okay okay. You literally ate two storms. You could have won that fight if you ran away from the storms. Hell, you could have pulled back and then dropped in his base. While he's defending it, use the other portion of your army to attack his natural. Also, your production is lacking during this time. Ideally at 11 minutes, you could have 5 Rax w/ Add ons + Third CC. And you're floating heavy anyways, so you have the money to do it  Also, you saw HTs, so you need to throw down a Ghost Academy.
Just gonna put this out there. Just because you have more geysers available, doesn't mean you have to take then. I usually run off 4-5 until I get to 4 base :l I don't need the gas. Hardcore supply block S:
Stop producing SCVs if you can saturate 3 base. You don't even have to saturate three base properly because of mules. You were 40 supply ahead, but it didn't matter because you had, at the point I'm at, 95 SCVs.
When you fought, you had no vikings with you, and you saw Colossi. Also, at the second fight, you at storms again :/ Kite. At one point, you could have thrown down like 3 macro CCs and threw away half your SCVs. Literally.
You take really bad fights imo. Low ground, eating storms, clumped up.
tl;dr. Too many SCVs, not enough macro/production, bad positioning.
Just saying what was on the top of my head while watching >.<
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On August 03 2012 23:19 PureMetal wrote:
Tips for punishing passive zergs?
This is currently the main problem post-patch in TvZ, you cannot really "punish" this. That being said, you can try to slip in one or two macro OCs à la ForGG, but this is somewhat risky since you can't always know if the Zerg will play Mutalisks or Infestors at the time you build them. Anyway, if you identify Infestors → fast Hive (or more like fast Hive → Infestors these days...), you can get an earlier fourth and try to kill his fourth before his Hive tech kicks in.
On August 03 2012 23:19 PureMetal wrote:
I've even been toying with the idea of BCs so that he can't mindlessly pump zerglings and might actually have to switch tech.
BCs are an option in lategame when you have a big economy, but you won't force any tech switch as Zergs will always head for Broodlords/Corruptors at some point.
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On August 04 2012 00:56 NewDawn wrote:As far as my TvP goes, I find that the longer you wait, the more difficult it gets, but it surely is not impossible. After 10 minutes, that's when you need to become more reactionary. If you see HTs, you need ghosts. If you see Colossi, once you have 3-4 medivacs, start pumping vikings. If you feel weak, add more starports. Also, while it may be more difficult, you need to spread your army onto three hotkeys. 1 MMM / 2 Ghosts/Vikings / 3 Ghosts/Vikings. Being able to control the vikings, then going back to studder step/emp is important in winning fights. Also, set up concaves before hand, and don't be afraid to scan to find out how to position. Also I find that many Protoss players neglect making back up observers. If you snipe the obs, EMPing gets really easy. Keeping up with your upgrades helps too. I'll watch the replay and add more >.< Edit: Note taking time. When I 1Rax FE, I rally the SCV building the barracks to the closest mineral patch so it can mine it and then build the CC faster. Also, I usually skip the 2nd depo, so it's more like, Marine>OC>CC>SCV>Depo>Marine. You didn't transfer SCVs to your natural! You're playing blind. I think you need to work on your gas timings a little. You still didn't scout anything :X Okay okay. You literally ate two storms. You could have won that fight if you ran away from the storms. Hell, you could have pulled back and then dropped in his base. While he's defending it, use the other portion of your army to attack his natural. Also, your production is lacking during this time. Ideally at 11 minutes, you could have 5 Rax w/ Add ons + Third CC. And you're floating heavy anyways, so you have the money to do it Also, you saw HTs, so you need to throw down a Ghost Academy. Just gonna put this out there. Just because you have more geysers available, doesn't mean you have to take then. I usually run off 4-5 until I get to 4 base :l I don't need the gas. Hardcore supply block S: Stop producing SCVs if you can saturate 3 base. You don't even have to saturate three base properly because of mules. You were 40 supply ahead, but it didn't matter because you had, at the point I'm at, 95 SCVs. When you fought, you had no vikings with you, and you saw Colossi. Also, at the second fight, you at storms again :/ Kite. At one point, you could have thrown down like 3 macro CCs and threw away half your SCVs. Literally. You take really bad fights imo. Low ground, eating storms, clumped up. tl;dr. Too many SCVs, not enough macro/production, bad positioning. Just saying what was on the top of my head while watching >.<
Ok i don't agree with some points you made, i don't know what league you are but i'm in diamond. Guessing your masters.
Transfering scv's to my expo(when it just finishes) i think thats what you meant? Some people do that and some just saturate their base and then rally to their expos.
Floating heavily not exactly, i had around 700 max when i was retreating, around 500-600 when i was microing my army. I get 1 cc very fast afterwards and 3 rax ~30 sec later.
What do you mean "work on your gas timings" this build order i used is from TOP(ogs) and my gas was getting spend. If i wannna get vikings/ghosts with my MMM i guess i need 6 gas but in the situation i was in i guess not. I agree i made too many workers, bad zerg habit :D.
Yea that's something i should definitly improve on(countering their tech), with the push i did you force the toss to show their tech (collosus or HT).
My engagements were quite horrible too but even with good split and kit micro my army was way too small because of the shitload scv's i made, so i'm not sure if i could kill that army anyway.
Thanks for your post, Terran is very fun in comparison to zerg in my opinion :D.
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On August 04 2012 02:43 Guamshin wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Ok i don't agree with some points you made, i don't know what league you are but i'm in diamond. Guessing your masters.
Transfering scv's to my expo(when it just finishes) i think thats what you meant? Some people do that and some just saturate their base and then rally to their expos.
Floating heavily not exactly, i had around 700 max when i was retreating, around 500-600 when i was microing my army. I get 1 cc very fast afterwards and 3 rax ~30 sec later.
What do you mean "work on your gas timings" this build order i used is from TOP(ogs) and my gas was getting spend. If i wannna get vikings/ghosts with my MMM i guess i need 6 gas but in the situation i was in i guess not. I agree i made too many workers, bad zerg habit :D.
Yea that's something i should definitly improve on(countering their tech), with the push i did you force the toss to show their tech (collosus or HT).
My engagements were quite horrible too but even with good split and kit micro my army was way too small because of the shitload scv's i made, so i'm not sure if i could kill that army anyway.
Thanks for your post, Terran is very fun in comparison to zerg in my opinion :D.
Sorry, it's just a habit of mine when I look through my own replays to comment on everything. I'm in Diamond too :/ It's just I look at everything when I watch replays and just note all the little things.
For the transferring thing, I know what you mean. Saturating one base then the next works, but I feel like the base is kind of a liability if it's not mining. But you're right, doesn't matter that much I guess.
I know 700 minerals isn't heavy floating, but at that point in the game, you could definitely be expanding your infrastructure while you're pushing, so that when you retreat, you'll have stuff finishing up.
As for the gas timing thing, I think that you could have gotten a third gas but not the fourth one when you were getting your factory. I think it would help, but I'm not sure, you seemed to have it timed out.
I think that had you seen the Templar Archives, you would probably wouldn't have been caught off guard.
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On August 04 2012 00:57 TheDwf wrote:This is currently the main problem post-patch in TvZ, you cannot really "punish" this. That being said, you can try to slip in one or two macro OCs à la ForGG, but this is somewhat risky since you can't always know if the Zerg will play Mutalisks or Infestors at the time you build them. Anyway, if you identify Infestors → fast Hive (or more like fast Hive → Infestors these days...), you can get an earlier fourth and try to kill his fourth before his Hive tech kicks in. Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 23:19 PureMetal wrote:
I've even been toying with the idea of BCs so that he can't mindlessly pump zerglings and might actually have to switch tech. BCs are an option in lategame when you have a big economy, but you won't force any tech switch as Zergs will always head for Broodlords/Corruptors at some point.
...Well that sucks.
I had some success a while ago with going mech terran and make a large group of hellions. The mobility and blue flame made hit and run tactics actually possible (as a terran) as long as I did not waste them. But mass roach response is pretty effective if I am not able to get my thor/tank count up in the mean time, and he can make me play defensive with good mutalisk harass.
So I'm pondering doing the standard MM + Tank and an additional factory pumping hellions to make it more dangerous to go ling+infestor. I've thought about banshees before, but 1 spore crawler and queen completely shuts down harass and late game mutas and infestors have no problem hunting them down.
It's extremely frustrating how much of a commitment it feels like moving out against a zerg because you risk a complete loss by surround and fungals if your tanks are not ready OR a back stab.
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Russian Federation5 Posts
Haven’t played terran for a long time, diamond level. I wonder what new metagame is like nowadays. Today I can see a lot of games with different strategies and mindsets. However, I believe there is always a solid way to play any matchup, relying on good mechanics and army control. Although there are some extremely well-written guides here on TL, many of them are gimmicky though creative plays, which I, personally, don’t like in terms of learning.
My question on the current state of metagame can be subdivided into several simplier ones:
1) What opening is the best nowadays? Of course it’s hard to tell it definitely, because I’ve seen some amazing games of mkp’s 12/14 into stim timing or thorzain’s turtle style of 3cc with hellions and banshees, and both of them went extremely in favor of terran, I want to know what build can accomplish 2 goals: staying on good economy and having the philosophy of always harassing the zerg with some kind of ability to punish greedy plays.
I, personally, used to play reac hellions into 3 tank push or reaper expo into 2 medivac drop play, which are now seem to be pretty much obsolete.
2) When do you need to take 3rd and be fairly safe in terms of securing it without a hell of a micro?
3) What’s your plan in the midgame? How do you push zerg?
4) What unit composition is the shit in the lategame? What proportion of units in it should the terran be building?
If the questions are vague, some games that can explain it will be really appreciated.
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EPT
