EPTAlso has anyone got any experience of using 1/1/1 against zerg? I've seen the viking variation work, once but does it really do any damage?
Thanks
The Terran Help Me Thread - Page 310
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Rixxe
United Kingdom136 Posts
Also has anyone got any experience of using 1/1/1 against zerg? I've seen the viking variation work, once but does it really do any damage? Thanks | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
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Aoxer
44 Posts
On July 23 2012 20:57 kollin wrote: Can anyone recommend me a good TvP all in build? I'm having a lot of trouble in the matchup and can't be bothered trying to take it past the midgame. Well, I was having troulbe and starting doing MKP 2 rax  As for all ins, 2 rax into 3 rax stim with pulled scvs, 1/1/1, or halby's 2-1-1 all work really well | ||
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Yilias
United States20 Posts
On July 23 2012 20:57 kollin wrote: Can anyone recommend me a good TvP all in build? I'm having a lot of trouble in the matchup and can't be bothered trying to take it past the midgame. I first saw something like this on Kas' stream and made my own changes to it. Open regular 2rax reactor first (12rax, 13gas, 15OC + marine, 16rax; reactor on first rax when marine finishes and tech lab on the second barracks as soon as its built). At 17 food cut SCV production and build a factory when you hit 100 gas (should be before your second depot) either in your base or proxied near his. Proxying and then floating the factory into his base is also an option. Pump marine/marauder/hellion and get conc shell. At 3 hellions pull half your SCVs and try to kill him. The only way they can hold it is if they don't expand and have multiple sentries to forcefield the ramp and keep you out. Even then I've been able to break the ramp by making a reaper or two for high ground vision and picking off the sentries. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On July 23 2012 21:15 Yilias wrote: I first saw something like this on Kas' stream and made my own changes to it. Open regular 2rax reactor first (12rax, 13gas, 15OC + marine, 16rax; reactor on first rax when marine finishes and tech lab on the second barracks as soon as its built). At 17 food cut SCV production and build a factory when you hit 100 gas (should be before your second depot) either in your base or proxied near his. Proxying and then floating the factory into his base is also an option. Pump marine/marauder/hellion and get conc shell. At 3 hellions pull half your SCVs and try to kill him. The only way they can hold it is if they don't expand and have multiple sentries to forcefield the ramp and keep you out. Even then I've been able to break the ramp by making a reaper or two for high ground vision and picking off the sentries. OK thanks. I'll try that out and see how it goes :D EDIT: Okay tried it out a few times and...gotten crushed every single time. Back to 1/1/1 I guess. | ||
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Hero1
135 Posts
How to save my back then? Even if I fly everything back to my main, he can still do damage in a lot of places because I can't cover everything with two bunkers (wouldn't have enough units for additional ones). How to micro vs his attack? Pull SCVs to surround stalkers and focus fire VRs? He'll kite though and I'll lose a lot... | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On July 23 2012 22:30 Hero1 wrote: How to hold off proxy VRs on shakuras with a std 1depot expand if I scout it in time (suspected sth is up from his main and probe leaving, then found proxy port with an SCV) ? At that point I have my natural running, a bunker at the front and 2 raxes building addons. I'm assuming I shouldn't build any marauders like I usually would. Is it also advisable to invest my first 100 gas into faster vikings and not research stim or combat shields since it wouldn't finish in time anyway? What else? Should I fly back my nat and salvage the lower bunker? It seems impossible to save that many entries since I at least need two additional bunkers and they obviously die very quickly if I don't pull SCVs in time. How to save my back then? Even if I fly everything back to my main, he can still do damage in a lot of places because I can't cover everything with two bunkers (wouldn't have enough units for additional ones). How to micro vs his attack? Pull SCVs to surround stalkers and focus fire VRs? He'll kite though and I'll lose a lot... It doesn't matter if you lose some scvs because you have more bases than him and you have mules. Just get an engineering bay and put a few turrets in your main and maybe one or two at your front. | ||
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NewbieOne
Poland560 Posts
The other build is Bomber TvZ in #395, based around a core of 3 OC's, one fact, two rax (react + TL) and one E-Bay. Solid stuff but it would be great to see some practical application/adaptation, mostly to avoid allowing the zerg to get out of hand when he has all the freedom he wants. These two builds were more difficult for me than the #394 Thorzain TvT that was relatively easy to implement. I'd like to be able to use the other two with a similar ease and success as this one. Any ideas? | ||
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xRiotZx
United States105 Posts
And now that I'm playing Top 50 Diamonds consistently, I am doing horrible TvZ, I manage to out macro my opponent 3-1 in all other matchups, but TvZ, it's a nightmare. I tried various cheeses throughout the last week, 4 Rax Pressure, hit at 6 with roughly 16 marines, 3 Rax All In, hit at 4:30 with all scvs and 8-9 marines. I've tried opening with a standard 1 Rax FE, moving into Tank/Bio, which fails miserably, because your enemy has both free scouts, and free map control which it costs you a lump to negate. I've tried MMA openings, which failed as well, when the Zerg had 3 queens at his 2nd, and his third hadn't dropped yet, now with the range upgrade from 3-5 hellions are pretty much useless to open with. I've tried all different kinds of FEs, some where I made 3 Rax and then an expo, while rushing to apply pressure, and moving into 3 Rax Stim. I have, and I mean this literally, tried every single standard opening versus Zerg. I was easily poised for Masters, but with a 66% (55ish realistically) WLR, which I won't have, as I'll lose to Terran and Protoss every once in a while, you're never going to leave Platinum, in fact you'll probably get demoted to Gold. So someone, give me my silver bullet, what can I do, to bring as much torment upon Zerg, as they bring upon me? Another thing to note, I've had moderate success with a FE using only a few tanks, and mostly marines to hold off attacks, while I hide my heavy tech into Banshees and Ravens. | ||
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JonIrenicus
Italy602 Posts
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Sianos
580 Posts
On July 23 2012 23:31 NewbieOne wrote: My question concerns exemplary Terran builds from Day9's dailies from, I think, January. In #399, Day9 showcased a "Very Easy TvP Build by Kas". Except in my experience the build is definitely not easy to survive with on lower leagues ladder (gold, low APM side), with aggressive Toss play and subpar mechanics on both sides of the game (which hurts the very early third no gas Terran more than it does a standard playing Toss). Does anybody have replays or links to replays where this build or a similar once is convincingly used by non-gosu players on ladder? The other build is Bomber TvZ in #395, based around a core of 3 OC's, one fact, two rax (react + TL) and one E-Bay. Solid stuff but it would be great to see some practical application/adaptation, mostly to avoid allowing the zerg to get out of hand when he has all the freedom he wants. These two builds were more difficult for me than the #394 Thorzain TvT that was relatively easy to implement. I'd like to be able to use the other two with a similar ease and success as this one. Any ideas? If i remeber correctly the TvP build from Kas was played on Tal Darim Altar and he went fast 3cc. I didn´t liked the example of this as an easy build. This build was just an abuse of the big map and the tendency of the opponent oponed macro oriented. It just dies aggainst early aggresion or allins builds if executed well. In a newer daily he described Bomber´s TvP style which is quite good to put on more aggresion in the midgame and can defend a little bit better aggainst pressure or allin builds, because he doesn´t go for a fast 3rd and put down additional 2 rax quite early. I played this build some time but i went back to the standard 3 rax into fac into starport with faster addons, because of the lack of gas to put into marrauders+upgrades and air units at the same time. Bomber´s TvZ build is comparable to Kas´ TvP build. Fast 3 CCs just don´t allow you to put any pressure on and zerg has enough freetime to drone and do all the things he wants. In addition the last patch reduced the effectivness of the hellions with the queen range buff, which lowers the potential of your hellions denying creep. In order to make those macro oriented builds work in TvZ you need a lot of experience when to push out and how to micro your units effectively. I would choose an opening with a fast cc and a transtion into an attack timing arround 10 minutes to put on more aggresion and to learn how to attack a zerg. Not all builds day9 describes as super easy can be played as standrad builds in ladder, because they are designed by pro´s who are either abusing maps or the metagame to get an advatange in a specific phase of the game over their opponent. If you want some solid ladder builds i would watch some master or grandmaster replays and find a player who is using the same build every game. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 23 2012 20:56 Rixxe wrote: Are ghosts still used in TvZ anymore? Even if there are infesters, im not sure if more medivacs is better or ghosts. Snipe still worth it? Also has anyone got any experience of using 1/1/1 against zerg? I've seen the viking variation work, once but does it really do any damage? Thanks I personally avoid ghosts in this matchup. The snipe nerf is notable enough that I feel like a lategame transition toward mech is a better choice. That being said, a tank or a thor shot is just as powerful as snipe, but also very good against other stuff. I think there are still some ghost builds being used, especially ones exploiting nukes, but I prefer to stick with a meaty metal army lategame. As for the 1-1-1, I haven't tried it. I mean, I can see the viability of doing the standard mass hellion/banshee, then attacking with like 30 marines with CS or stim, doing some kind of biomech. But I'm not sure how the economy works in that situation. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 23 2012 20:57 kollin wrote: Can anyone recommend me a good TvP all in build? I'm having a lot of trouble in the matchup and can't be bothered trying to take it past the midgame. 5rax. Do a 1rax FE (like the Bomber build), but don't get gas, build 4 more rax after expand. If you're constantly producing out of 5rax, you can actually hold off a 4-gate with ease, then attack around 7:00 with a sizeable marine force. (Note: YOU MUST DO SOME DAMAGE WITH THIS MARINE ATTACK). During the attack, add a 3rd CC, all 4 gases, and start teching towards medivacs/CS/stim/+1,+1 rapidly. This will give you a push at 12:00 with 2-4 medivacs, CS, stim, and +1/+1 while securing a 3rd base with a 5rax infrastructure. Because you attacked early and forced sentries/gas units, your opponent can't have fast colossus or HT, so you're actually in really good shape with this attack. Try it out...I wish I had a replay to show you, but you'll figure it out, it's fairly simple: 1rax FE 5 rax 7:00 marine attack + 3rd CC + 4 gas Factory + 2 techlab + 2 ebay Starport + 3 reactor 12:00 attack, secure 3rd | ||
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Aildiin
United States1 Post
I'm a top 8 Gold player, I've been playing since May and like most Terrans I've been struggling against macro zergs until recently where I have been trying something new for me that has been helping me a lot. I can't really pull off yet the hellions harass as my multitasking sucks and if I try hellions harass my macro lags behind at a critical time where I am trying to build my infrastructure. So instead I go for a 2 medivacs drop that leave my base at 8m30s. Basically the build is like this : 1 rax FE into 2 x gas 2nd rax bunker outside natural factory reactor on factory starport tech lab + reactor on both barracks start stim as soon as tech lab is done put reactor on starport when ready and start 2 medivac start tech lab on factory and start siege tanks production start 3rd Commander center around 8m20s by 8m30 if you produce nonstop of your rax you should have 12 marines and 2 marauders ( I start marauder as soon as the tech lab is ready, tech lab will be started around 6min30-6min50). and 2 medivacs Stim will finish while you are in flight to the zerg base. Once at the zerg main base you try to achieve one of the 4th following outcomes by order of preference : 1) kill the Lair, best outcome, very unlikely to happen 2) kill many drones. This can happen and is actually almost as good as killing the lair ( if the zerg has few units he will try to save his lair with drones) 3) Kill a few queens, 4) Kill a tech building, preferably the pool as it will allow you to float your 3rd cc after the attack and build a wall there without much harass... Success will depend on how far from the main the queens are and how early his overlords detect your medivacs. On Cloud kingdom this strategy will work even better as if the zerg reacts fast you can lift off and drop at his third and do a tonn of damage there while he has to run around.... Once the drop is over, if you did any damage you can safely drop your third. If you managed to kill a decent amount of drones I would recommand hitting the zerg third with whatever tanks and marines you build during the drop as the zerg will try to drone to make up for his losses and you should easilly be able to take down his third... One drawback of this strategy is that your siege tanks are a little late and you will have trouble against roachs attack around the 7-8 min mark. In my view the 2 marauders are really needed as your marines don't have combat shield so they do a lot of damage but will die relatively fast while the 2 marauders with 2 medivacs will last forever against queens.. And the marauders can tank banelings in case the zerg has any ready... One other thing I like about this opening is that even if your macro lags behind a little during the drop it's not a big problem as typically a lot of zerg will transition into muta after this so you have the bank to build mass turrets... But aside from that it has been very successful for me , what are the others drawbacks and why aren't more terrans trying this ? | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On July 24 2012 01:14 monkybone wrote: SC2John! This isn't an all-in build! But I second this though, 5 rax fits extremely well into the current TvP metagame. Most pro players I've seen do this build attacks before 7 minutes, they usually go at around 6:30 but not earlier. However, I recommend getting 4 gases before you add the 3rd CC. Your transition depends too heavily on the 4 gas timing. Your gas expense priorities should be something like this: stim, factory, CS, +1/+1. A really fun TvP all-in I've been playing around with recently has been variations on Synystyr's Anti-Colossus TvP. It's a kinda cheesy way to play big air, and can out-right win against an opponent who's not on guard. Of course, if you want a nice balanced all-in, Warden's Build can still work, though you'll probably want to open with a 1 rax FE or something more economical than what he used, just because times have changed since a year ago. | ||
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Sianos
580 Posts
On July 24 2012 01:09 Aildiin wrote: Hi everyone, I'm a top 8 Gold player, I've been playing since May and like most Terrans I've been struggling against macro zergs until recently where I have been trying something new for me that has been helping me a lot. I can't really pull off yet the hellions harass as my multitasking sucks and if I try hellions harass my macro lags behind at a critical time where I am trying to build my infrastructure. So instead I go for a 2 medivacs drop that leave my base at 8m30s. Basically the build is like this : 1 rax FE into 2 x gas 2nd rax bunker outside natural factory reactor on factory starport tech lab + reactor on both barracks start stim as soon as tech lab is done put reactor on starport when ready and start 2 medivac start tech lab on factory and start siege tanks production start 3rd Commander center around 8m20s by 8m30 if you produce nonstop of your rax you should have 12 marines and 2 marauders ( I start marauder as soon as the tech lab is ready, tech lab will be started around 6min30-6min50). and 2 medivacs Stim will finish while you are in flight to the zerg base. Once at the zerg main base you try to achieve one of the 4th following outcomes by order of preference : 1) kill the Lair, best outcome, very unlikely to happen 2) kill many drones. This can happen and is actually almost as good as killing the lair ( if the zerg has few units he will try to save his lair with drones) 3) Kill a few queens, 4) Kill a tech building, preferably the pool as it will allow you to float your 3rd cc after the attack and build a wall there without much harass... Success will depend on how far from the main the queens are and how early his overlords detect your medivacs. On Cloud kingdom this strategy will work even better as if the zerg reacts fast you can lift off and drop at his third and do a tonn of damage there while he has to run around.... Once the drop is over, if you did any damage you can safely drop your third. If you managed to kill a decent amount of drones I would recommand hitting the zerg third with whatever tanks and marines you build during the drop as the zerg will try to drone to make up for his losses and you should easilly be able to take down his third... One drawback of this strategy is that your siege tanks are a little late and you will have trouble against roachs attack around the 7-8 min mark. In my view the 2 marauders are really needed as your marines don't have combat shield so they do a lot of damage but will die relatively fast while the 2 marauders with 2 medivacs will last forever against queens.. And the marauders can tank banelings in case the zerg has any ready... One other thing I like about this opening is that even if your macro lags behind a little during the drop it's not a big problem as typically a lot of zerg will transition into muta after this so you have the bank to build mass turrets... But aside from that it has been very successful for me , what are the others drawbacks and why aren't more terrans trying this ? Not only that your tanks are late your upgrades will also be really late and you´ll die to every baneling oriented allin the Zerg can do, because of your low unit count + low tech + weak wall. However i like to do a similar opening on shakuras plateau. This is basically a 1 rax fe into 3 rax. The 2 additional rax have to be built on at your choke and with a bunker or 2 additional depots you have a verry solid wallin aggainst banelings. Then 2 gas and tl on your 1st rax into combat shield. Factory asap + 3rd gas + ebay into reactor starport. When your 2 medivacs spawn arround 9 minutes start to drop. An early drop with 16 combat shield marines behind the mineral lines is really strong and gives you almost every time a significant lead. The only weakness are some banelings for defense but then you can just lift off and drop somewhere else. Because of no addons and your 2 rax you can start your 3rd cc when your starport is building and you have +1 attack for you bio half way done when you drop, so that you have a 3rd and +1 bio attack when your drop is done. After your 3rd you can add on 2 more rax and build addons on your 2 rax on the wall to create a wall towards your 3rd. Then you are left with a 3rd 5 rax of production, +1 bio attack and tank production, which gives you good opportunities to end the game after you dealt significant damage. The main weakness this type of play has is banelings, which can bust through your wall quite easily on maps with a larger choke on your natrual. | ||
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NewbieOne
Poland560 Posts
Hi. My last build before trying to use the Bomber TvZ or otherwise switching to MTV was a lean mech one with a semi-late hellion opening into hellion-thor mixture, which was a build I've used like all the time in almost all my TvZs. + Show Spoiler + The exact opening differed over time because it was necessary to facture survival in and my mechanics/rush defence/ability to scout and interpret scouting data changed. If I played more rarely and was rusty, I had to tone it down compared to what I could do when I played many games every day and was appropriately warmed up. So you basically need to deliver an effective hellion opening without dying to bling, 7 roach and all that jazz. (This also influences your decisions with addons like do you want to wait 30 seconds or do the addon swap and show your opponent what you're doing.) This can mean anything from a very fast 2-4 hellions to a BFH push, for me usually a decent number of hellions by around 7 minutes (6-8) rather than fast 2-4 (Day9 believes 6 to be optimal). First thors are needed before mutalisks hit in. After that it's not mass thor but rather a balanced combination of both hellion and thor with some judicious micro/positioning and good timings or judgement calls as to being more aggressive or defensive. Details changed for various reasons, mostly as I had problems with some aspects of it, when I changed leagues or whatever. The last version relied on 3-4 naked factories into tech labs on all but one, semi-late expo behind the first push/harass, two armouries with upgrades from the get go (but priority to armour before guns when neding to choose). It was possible to become really scary around 10:00 depending on the enemy composition and max around 15:00 if undisturbed. Trading armies etc. was dangerous because of potentially getting outteched. The first major push would come with some SCVs, later that'd also include mules, and expanding behind attacks, without shying away from PF's with an aggressive opponent. I lost sometimes but it tended to work almost always and even against broodlords, broodlord infestor etc. it wasn't hopeless, it only took some different micro/positioning attack order (like keeping hellions behind thors but comfortably close). For a massive push like in a difficult situation, a cloud of auto-repairing SCVs generally managed to tip the scale. Sometimes a marine mineral dump if it seemed useful in the situation. So this build had no port. It either did or did not have a an E-Bay depending on how defensively I needed to play. A version without marines in the beginning (unless forced to) and without PF's/E-Bays later was particularly destructive but also fragile. Generally the point was to have a scary maxed or close to maxed hellion thor army before the opponent could realistically tech to many broodlords or otherwise get a particularly scary composition, unless it was possible to cripple him around 10:00-12:00, which generally depended on his composition and the seriousness of the risk of my force getting overrun. | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
And also what's best to do to hold these attacks when you have gone 1 Rax FE is it 3 bunkers or focusing on fast tanks instead of trying to get medivacs out? | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On July 24 2012 04:58 Targe wrote: Heyo, what times would you have to scout in order to check for an early bling bust and roach/bane/ling all in? And also what's best to do to hold these attacks when you have gone 1 Rax FE is it 3 bunkers or focusing on fast tanks instead of trying to get medivacs out? Usually if you see a gas before 3 mins then you know SOMETHING is up and that you should wall off your front with more than supply depots. If you hold one off what you do depends on what you scout. If you see the Zerg being greedy, then be greedy yourself while putting on a bit of pressure. If you see a follow up bust tanks would be good, but it really is dependent on what you scout. | ||
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