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On July 20 2012 15:51 Kid-Fox wrote:
How the fuck do I push my supposed 'midgame' advantage against protoss? All protosses do against me is 1gate1gas FE into fast colossus. Then, he's impossible to touch for the rest of the game. From there all protoss does is maek moar colossus, get HT with storm so I'm forced into lategame, while chronoboosting double forge upgrades so I'm behind in upgrades too. No matter what he does I can't break him.
Then there's protosses who go FFE in tvp. This is a legitimate question: What am I supposed to do against this? I can't pull my scvs and rush with marines because he gets cannons out by then and holds with cannons and probes. If I go for my typical play, protoss will have 150% of what he typically has because he got his nexus so quickly.
I'm so lost... it always feels like he just sits his army there, waiting to pick a fight with my army, and almost every time I can't win. At best, come out even, at which point I lose to his advance round of reinforcements. It feels like protoss has the advantage in forcing multitasking because every action they have in battles/harassment takes far less focus/apm than the terran equivalent. I end up frantically macroing and keeping a hawk's eye on the minimap and the protoss army, juggling all this shit at once, and one slip up and I lose the game. If I play it juuuust right, I can eventually win after protoss makes several mistakes.
Serious question though, what is the response to Nexus first with forge/rushing for gateways?
One way to counter the greed of the Protoss is to be greedy yourself. Take a fast in-base third, get extremely fast upgrades and so on. Of course this is a risk if the Protoss player goes for a two base timing attack, but at the same time he went for the risk earlier in the game.
Drop play is one of the ways you should be pushing your mid-game advantage against Protoss, and in general just splitting their army up. You should never be looking to just go straight up the ramp and fight, that will only happen if the Protoss is greedy. You're advantage is mobility and strength in small numbers. Throw a drop in his main, poke his natural if he leaves it too undefended and so on. This can continue for a long period of time and even becomes more effective when his third base goes up, as he has more space to spread units across. Generally you can deny or delay the third for a decent amount of time as your own third goes up, giving you and economic advantage.
You will also know the tech he is going for due to the scouting via drops in the main and pokes at the natural - this allows you to get a nice counter to the tech he is going for and also will probably give you a timing to hit just before he adds his second tech path, where you will be the strongest vs the Protoss ball.
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On July 20 2012 15:32 Airionn wrote:
Hi, im looking for a 6min timing attack build with, Marine siege tanks and medis for drop harass play. been look at builds the past 2 hours cannot find any anywhere, does this build work and is there a build order i can see? having problems playing 1raxfe into tanks and medis vs terran looking to switch things up. Thank you.
6 Minutes is a very early timing and you won't be able to get an effective number of tanks up in this time. It sounds as though you are looking to do a 1 base all in, and so I would suggest just a standard 1/1/1 , reactor on rax and making banshees/tanks (like the TvP version). It is very strong especially against a gasless expanding Terran, however it is very all in due to the amount of early game gas and because you cannot take your expansion for a long time. Other versions of the 1/1/1 off of one gas include cloakless banshees or a marine hellion elevator around 7-8 minutes, both of which are more economical because they are done from one gas. This allows you for a faster expansion, though you still have to do some damage to come out even (but not out right kill your opponent).
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Against Nexus First I once went for a Reaper as soon as I spotted it and just kept adding more.
His Stalker was out so late due the Nexus First that it ended up winning me the game.
You can go greedy yourself, but with the strength of Bio early game I feel pressuring Nexus First (and expanding behind that pressure) is a better option. You'll also make Protoss bring everything to the front so you can get a read on what he's doing.
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United States4883 Posts
On July 20 2012 15:51 Kid-Fox wrote:
How the fuck do I push my supposed 'midgame' advantage against protoss? All protosses do against me is 1gate1gas FE into fast colossus. Then, he's impossible to touch for the rest of the game. From there all protoss does is maek moar colossus, get HT with storm so I'm forced into lategame, while chronoboosting double forge upgrades so I'm behind in upgrades too. No matter what he does I can't break him.
Then there's protosses who go FFE in tvp. This is a legitimate question: What am I supposed to do against this? I can't pull my scvs and rush with marines because he gets cannons out by then and holds with cannons and probes. If I go for my typical play, protoss will have 150% of what he typically has because he got his nexus so quickly.
I'm so lost... it always feels like he just sits his army there, waiting to pick a fight with my army, and almost every time I can't win. At best, come out even, at which point I lose to his advance round of reinforcements. It feels like protoss has the advantage in forcing multitasking because every action they have in battles/harassment takes far less focus/apm than the terran equivalent. I end up frantically macroing and keeping a hawk's eye on the minimap and the protoss army, juggling all this shit at once, and one slip up and I lose the game. If I play it juuuust right, I can eventually win after protoss makes several mistakes.
Serious question though, what is the response to Nexus first with forge/rushing for gateways?
I know the feeling, TvP is a very difficult matchup and feels infinitely easier from the protoss point of view. As far as pushing the midgame advantage, do your best to just be aggressive and split up his forces, delay his 3rd, etc. I personally DONT like the standard 10-minute timing; I do a 5-rax opening into a stronger, less anticipated 12:00 timing, so maybe you can try that.
For the FFE, protosses have the same problem they have in PvZ: late tech. With a FFE-type opening, you know that warp gate can't be done until approximately 4 minutes after the first gateway is finished at the earliest. You should see the FFE, smile, expand, and say to yourself "I'm safe until X:XX". During this "safe" time, you have the tech advantage, so you push your tech advantage, getting faster CS/stim/medivacs. Remember, if the protoss PUTS THEMSELVES behind in tech, you're ahead, no need to get an economic or army advantage. Like Day9 says: "Just do everything FASTER".
If they nexus first, rushing for 6-7 gateways for an early rush, I would still advocate getting tech out faster and making sure you have 3-4 bunkers out. 6-7 gateways against bunkers and SOME terran units = win. 6-7 gateways against bunkers and SOME terran units WITH STIM/CS = lose. So just try to do everything a little faster, knowing you actually don't have to defend a 6:00 4-gate.
(Or you could just go 1rax FE into the "2-2-2". That shit is SOOOOOOO good against gateway units hahahaha)
Hope this helps!
EDIT: OR, you take a different approach and go for economic damage like the poster above me. 4-5 speed reapers or reactor hellions with early medivacs can be a really effective way to do a lot of economic damage early and prevent the protoss from abusing an early warp-gate attack (because they can't fund it). Again, this is early tech against whatever zealots/stalkers they get out before warp gate.
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 20 2012 22:21 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 15:51 Kid-Fox wrote:
How the fuck do I push my supposed 'midgame' advantage against protoss? All protosses do against me is 1gate1gas FE into fast colossus. Then, he's impossible to touch for the rest of the game. From there all protoss does is maek moar colossus, get HT with storm so I'm forced into lategame, while chronoboosting double forge upgrades so I'm behind in upgrades too. No matter what he does I can't break him.
Then there's protosses who go FFE in tvp. This is a legitimate question: What am I supposed to do against this? I can't pull my scvs and rush with marines because he gets cannons out by then and holds with cannons and probes. If I go for my typical play, protoss will have 150% of what he typically has because he got his nexus so quickly.
I'm so lost... it always feels like he just sits his army there, waiting to pick a fight with my army, and almost every time I can't win. At best, come out even, at which point I lose to his advance round of reinforcements. It feels like protoss has the advantage in forcing multitasking because every action they have in battles/harassment takes far less focus/apm than the terran equivalent. I end up frantically macroing and keeping a hawk's eye on the minimap and the protoss army, juggling all this shit at once, and one slip up and I lose the game. If I play it juuuust right, I can eventually win after protoss makes several mistakes.
Serious question though, what is the response to Nexus first with forge/rushing for gateways? I know the feeling, TvP is a very difficult matchup and feels infinitely easier from the protoss point of view. As far as pushing the midgame advantage, do your best to just be aggressive and split up his forces, delay his 3rd, etc. I personally DONT like the standard 10-minute timing; I do a 5-rax opening into a stronger, less anticipated 12:00 timing, so maybe you can try that. For the FFE, protosses have the same problem they have in PvZ: late tech. With a FFE-type opening, you know that warp gate can't be done until approximately 4 minutes after the first gateway is finished at the earliest. You should see the FFE, smile, expand, and say to yourself "I'm safe until X:XX". During this "safe" time, you have the tech advantage, so you push your tech advantage, getting faster CS/stim/medivacs. Remember, if the protoss PUTS THEMSELVES behind in tech, you're ahead, no need to get an economic or army advantage. Like Day9 says: "Just do everything FASTER". If they nexus first, rushing for 6-7 gateways for an early rush, I would still advocate getting tech out faster and making sure you have 3-4 bunkers out. 6-7 gateways against bunkers and SOME terran units = win. 6-7 gateways against bunkers and SOME terran units WITH STIM/CS = lose. So just try to do everything a little faster, knowing you actually don't have to defend a 6:00 4-gate. (Or you could just go 1rax FE into the "2-2-2". That shit is SOOOOOOO good against gateway units hahahaha) Hope this helps! EDIT: OR, you take a different approach and go for economic damage like the poster above me. 4-5 speed reapers or reactor hellions with early medivacs can be a really effective way to do a lot of economic damage early and prevent the protoss from abusing an early warp-gate attack (because they can't fund it). Again, this is early tech against whatever zealots/stalkers they get out before warp gate.
I personally like to get my gases faster and do a random timing 2 or 3 rax with marrauders and marines, because most Protoss just sit behind their 1 or 2 canons and tech up like crazy, which can give you an easy win with that sort of random push(or at least you can do heavy eco damage and force units). However make sure to scan their choke before you push and when he has some units in addition to his canons just pull back and take a faster 3rd base.
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On July 21 2012 00:31 Sianos wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 20 2012 22:21 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 15:51 Kid-Fox wrote:
How the fuck do I push my supposed 'midgame' advantage against protoss? All protosses do against me is 1gate1gas FE into fast colossus. Then, he's impossible to touch for the rest of the game. From there all protoss does is maek moar colossus, get HT with storm so I'm forced into lategame, while chronoboosting double forge upgrades so I'm behind in upgrades too. No matter what he does I can't break him.
Then there's protosses who go FFE in tvp. This is a legitimate question: What am I supposed to do against this? I can't pull my scvs and rush with marines because he gets cannons out by then and holds with cannons and probes. If I go for my typical play, protoss will have 150% of what he typically has because he got his nexus so quickly.
I'm so lost... it always feels like he just sits his army there, waiting to pick a fight with my army, and almost every time I can't win. At best, come out even, at which point I lose to his advance round of reinforcements. It feels like protoss has the advantage in forcing multitasking because every action they have in battles/harassment takes far less focus/apm than the terran equivalent. I end up frantically macroing and keeping a hawk's eye on the minimap and the protoss army, juggling all this shit at once, and one slip up and I lose the game. If I play it juuuust right, I can eventually win after protoss makes several mistakes.
Serious question though, what is the response to Nexus first with forge/rushing for gateways? I know the feeling, TvP is a very difficult matchup and feels infinitely easier from the protoss point of view. As far as pushing the midgame advantage, do your best to just be aggressive and split up his forces, delay his 3rd, etc. I personally DONT like the standard 10-minute timing; I do a 5-rax opening into a stronger, less anticipated 12:00 timing, so maybe you can try that. For the FFE, protosses have the same problem they have in PvZ: late tech. With a FFE-type opening, you know that warp gate can't be done until approximately 4 minutes after the first gateway is finished at the earliest. You should see the FFE, smile, expand, and say to yourself "I'm safe until X:XX". During this "safe" time, you have the tech advantage, so you push your tech advantage, getting faster CS/stim/medivacs. Remember, if the protoss PUTS THEMSELVES behind in tech, you're ahead, no need to get an economic or army advantage. Like Day9 says: "Just do everything FASTER". If they nexus first, rushing for 6-7 gateways for an early rush, I would still advocate getting tech out faster and making sure you have 3-4 bunkers out. 6-7 gateways against bunkers and SOME terran units = win. 6-7 gateways against bunkers and SOME terran units WITH STIM/CS = lose. So just try to do everything a little faster, knowing you actually don't have to defend a 6:00 4-gate. (Or you could just go 1rax FE into the "2-2-2". That shit is SOOOOOOO good against gateway units hahahaha) Hope this helps! EDIT: OR, you take a different approach and go for economic damage like the poster above me. 4-5 speed reapers or reactor hellions with early medivacs can be a really effective way to do a lot of economic damage early and prevent the protoss from abusing an early warp-gate attack (because they can't fund it). Again, this is early tech against whatever zealots/stalkers they get out before warp gate. I personally like to get my gases faster and do a random timing 2 or 3 rax with marrauders and marines, because most Protoss just sit behind their 1 or 2 canons and tech up like crazy, which can give you an easy win with that sort of random push(or at least you can do heavy eco damage and force units). However make sure to scan their choke before you push and when he has some units in addition to his canons just pull back and take a faster 3rd base.
I would have thought quickish medivacs would be good, because cannons aren't very mobile and he will only have a few units that can actually fight.
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United States4883 Posts
On July 21 2012 00:38 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 00:31 Sianos wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 20 2012 22:21 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 15:51 Kid-Fox wrote:
How the fuck do I push my supposed 'midgame' advantage against protoss? All protosses do against me is 1gate1gas FE into fast colossus. Then, he's impossible to touch for the rest of the game. From there all protoss does is maek moar colossus, get HT with storm so I'm forced into lategame, while chronoboosting double forge upgrades so I'm behind in upgrades too. No matter what he does I can't break him.
Then there's protosses who go FFE in tvp. This is a legitimate question: What am I supposed to do against this? I can't pull my scvs and rush with marines because he gets cannons out by then and holds with cannons and probes. If I go for my typical play, protoss will have 150% of what he typically has because he got his nexus so quickly.
I'm so lost... it always feels like he just sits his army there, waiting to pick a fight with my army, and almost every time I can't win. At best, come out even, at which point I lose to his advance round of reinforcements. It feels like protoss has the advantage in forcing multitasking because every action they have in battles/harassment takes far less focus/apm than the terran equivalent. I end up frantically macroing and keeping a hawk's eye on the minimap and the protoss army, juggling all this shit at once, and one slip up and I lose the game. If I play it juuuust right, I can eventually win after protoss makes several mistakes.
Serious question though, what is the response to Nexus first with forge/rushing for gateways? I know the feeling, TvP is a very difficult matchup and feels infinitely easier from the protoss point of view. As far as pushing the midgame advantage, do your best to just be aggressive and split up his forces, delay his 3rd, etc. I personally DONT like the standard 10-minute timing; I do a 5-rax opening into a stronger, less anticipated 12:00 timing, so maybe you can try that. For the FFE, protosses have the same problem they have in PvZ: late tech. With a FFE-type opening, you know that warp gate can't be done until approximately 4 minutes after the first gateway is finished at the earliest. You should see the FFE, smile, expand, and say to yourself "I'm safe until X:XX". During this "safe" time, you have the tech advantage, so you push your tech advantage, getting faster CS/stim/medivacs. Remember, if the protoss PUTS THEMSELVES behind in tech, you're ahead, no need to get an economic or army advantage. Like Day9 says: "Just do everything FASTER". If they nexus first, rushing for 6-7 gateways for an early rush, I would still advocate getting tech out faster and making sure you have 3-4 bunkers out. 6-7 gateways against bunkers and SOME terran units = win. 6-7 gateways against bunkers and SOME terran units WITH STIM/CS = lose. So just try to do everything a little faster, knowing you actually don't have to defend a 6:00 4-gate. (Or you could just go 1rax FE into the "2-2-2". That shit is SOOOOOOO good against gateway units hahahaha) Hope this helps! EDIT: OR, you take a different approach and go for economic damage like the poster above me. 4-5 speed reapers or reactor hellions with early medivacs can be a really effective way to do a lot of economic damage early and prevent the protoss from abusing an early warp-gate attack (because they can't fund it). Again, this is early tech against whatever zealots/stalkers they get out before warp gate. I personally like to get my gases faster and do a random timing 2 or 3 rax with marrauders and marines, because most Protoss just sit behind their 1 or 2 canons and tech up like crazy, which can give you an easy win with that sort of random push(or at least you can do heavy eco damage and force units). However make sure to scan their choke before you push and when he has some units in addition to his canons just pull back and take a faster 3rd base. I would have thought quickish medivacs would be good, because cannons aren't very mobile and he will only have a few units that can actually fight.
You can go 2 rax, get a faster combat shield AND stim, faster +1, and medivacs all by 8:30-9:00, before the protoss really has a chance to make anything significant (warp gate will finish around 8-9 minutes with 3-7 gates). It's not a random timing, it's a calculated push at a time when you know your opponent CAN'T defend.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On July 21 2012 01:58 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 00:38 kollin wrote:On July 21 2012 00:31 Sianos wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 20 2012 22:21 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 15:51 Kid-Fox wrote:
How the fuck do I push my supposed 'midgame' advantage against protoss? All protosses do against me is 1gate1gas FE into fast colossus. Then, he's impossible to touch for the rest of the game. From there all protoss does is maek moar colossus, get HT with storm so I'm forced into lategame, while chronoboosting double forge upgrades so I'm behind in upgrades too. No matter what he does I can't break him.
Then there's protosses who go FFE in tvp. This is a legitimate question: What am I supposed to do against this? I can't pull my scvs and rush with marines because he gets cannons out by then and holds with cannons and probes. If I go for my typical play, protoss will have 150% of what he typically has because he got his nexus so quickly.
I'm so lost... it always feels like he just sits his army there, waiting to pick a fight with my army, and almost every time I can't win. At best, come out even, at which point I lose to his advance round of reinforcements. It feels like protoss has the advantage in forcing multitasking because every action they have in battles/harassment takes far less focus/apm than the terran equivalent. I end up frantically macroing and keeping a hawk's eye on the minimap and the protoss army, juggling all this shit at once, and one slip up and I lose the game. If I play it juuuust right, I can eventually win after protoss makes several mistakes.
Serious question though, what is the response to Nexus first with forge/rushing for gateways? I know the feeling, TvP is a very difficult matchup and feels infinitely easier from the protoss point of view. As far as pushing the midgame advantage, do your best to just be aggressive and split up his forces, delay his 3rd, etc. I personally DONT like the standard 10-minute timing; I do a 5-rax opening into a stronger, less anticipated 12:00 timing, so maybe you can try that. For the FFE, protosses have the same problem they have in PvZ: late tech. With a FFE-type opening, you know that warp gate can't be done until approximately 4 minutes after the first gateway is finished at the earliest. You should see the FFE, smile, expand, and say to yourself "I'm safe until X:XX". During this "safe" time, you have the tech advantage, so you push your tech advantage, getting faster CS/stim/medivacs. Remember, if the protoss PUTS THEMSELVES behind in tech, you're ahead, no need to get an economic or army advantage. Like Day9 says: "Just do everything FASTER". If they nexus first, rushing for 6-7 gateways for an early rush, I would still advocate getting tech out faster and making sure you have 3-4 bunkers out. 6-7 gateways against bunkers and SOME terran units = win. 6-7 gateways against bunkers and SOME terran units WITH STIM/CS = lose. So just try to do everything a little faster, knowing you actually don't have to defend a 6:00 4-gate. (Or you could just go 1rax FE into the "2-2-2". That shit is SOOOOOOO good against gateway units hahahaha) Hope this helps! EDIT: OR, you take a different approach and go for economic damage like the poster above me. 4-5 speed reapers or reactor hellions with early medivacs can be a really effective way to do a lot of economic damage early and prevent the protoss from abusing an early warp-gate attack (because they can't fund it). Again, this is early tech against whatever zealots/stalkers they get out before warp gate. I personally like to get my gases faster and do a random timing 2 or 3 rax with marrauders and marines, because most Protoss just sit behind their 1 or 2 canons and tech up like crazy, which can give you an easy win with that sort of random push(or at least you can do heavy eco damage and force units). However make sure to scan their choke before you push and when he has some units in addition to his canons just pull back and take a faster 3rd base. I would have thought quickish medivacs would be good, because cannons aren't very mobile and he will only have a few units that can actually fight. You can go 2 rax, get a faster combat shield AND stim, faster +1, and medivacs all by 8:30-9:00, before the protoss really has a chance to make anything significant (warp gate will finish around 8-9 minutes with 3-7 gates). It's not a random timing, it's a calculated push at a time when you know your opponent CAN'T defend.
If you opened with a 13 gas and your opponent went nexus first into Forge, you basically automatically win because of the possibility of a 2 rax stim attack as mentioned above. There are so many things you can do (thor rush, hellion drop, etc) with a 13 gas against a 15 nexus into Forge there's no way he can stop it, with his delayed units and delayed warpgates and immobile cannons.
For this reason, most players go 15 nexus into Gateway unless they scout no gas from the terran, in which case they go 15 nexus into Forge. Alternatively, they blindly go for the Forge and hope the terran is playing gasless. Either way, if he goes 15 nexus into Forge you should use your gas, take a second gas, and do a strong attack with tech that he can't defend.
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On July 21 2012 02:07 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 01:58 SC2John wrote:On July 21 2012 00:38 kollin wrote:On July 21 2012 00:31 Sianos wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 20 2012 22:21 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 15:51 Kid-Fox wrote:
How the fuck do I push my supposed 'midgame' advantage against protoss? All protosses do against me is 1gate1gas FE into fast colossus. Then, he's impossible to touch for the rest of the game. From there all protoss does is maek moar colossus, get HT with storm so I'm forced into lategame, while chronoboosting double forge upgrades so I'm behind in upgrades too. No matter what he does I can't break him.
Then there's protosses who go FFE in tvp. This is a legitimate question: What am I supposed to do against this? I can't pull my scvs and rush with marines because he gets cannons out by then and holds with cannons and probes. If I go for my typical play, protoss will have 150% of what he typically has because he got his nexus so quickly.
I'm so lost... it always feels like he just sits his army there, waiting to pick a fight with my army, and almost every time I can't win. At best, come out even, at which point I lose to his advance round of reinforcements. It feels like protoss has the advantage in forcing multitasking because every action they have in battles/harassment takes far less focus/apm than the terran equivalent. I end up frantically macroing and keeping a hawk's eye on the minimap and the protoss army, juggling all this shit at once, and one slip up and I lose the game. If I play it juuuust right, I can eventually win after protoss makes several mistakes.
Serious question though, what is the response to Nexus first with forge/rushing for gateways? I know the feeling, TvP is a very difficult matchup and feels infinitely easier from the protoss point of view. As far as pushing the midgame advantage, do your best to just be aggressive and split up his forces, delay his 3rd, etc. I personally DONT like the standard 10-minute timing; I do a 5-rax opening into a stronger, less anticipated 12:00 timing, so maybe you can try that. For the FFE, protosses have the same problem they have in PvZ: late tech. With a FFE-type opening, you know that warp gate can't be done until approximately 4 minutes after the first gateway is finished at the earliest. You should see the FFE, smile, expand, and say to yourself "I'm safe until X:XX". During this "safe" time, you have the tech advantage, so you push your tech advantage, getting faster CS/stim/medivacs. Remember, if the protoss PUTS THEMSELVES behind in tech, you're ahead, no need to get an economic or army advantage. Like Day9 says: "Just do everything FASTER". If they nexus first, rushing for 6-7 gateways for an early rush, I would still advocate getting tech out faster and making sure you have 3-4 bunkers out. 6-7 gateways against bunkers and SOME terran units = win. 6-7 gateways against bunkers and SOME terran units WITH STIM/CS = lose. So just try to do everything a little faster, knowing you actually don't have to defend a 6:00 4-gate. (Or you could just go 1rax FE into the "2-2-2". That shit is SOOOOOOO good against gateway units hahahaha) Hope this helps! EDIT: OR, you take a different approach and go for economic damage like the poster above me. 4-5 speed reapers or reactor hellions with early medivacs can be a really effective way to do a lot of economic damage early and prevent the protoss from abusing an early warp-gate attack (because they can't fund it). Again, this is early tech against whatever zealots/stalkers they get out before warp gate. I personally like to get my gases faster and do a random timing 2 or 3 rax with marrauders and marines, because most Protoss just sit behind their 1 or 2 canons and tech up like crazy, which can give you an easy win with that sort of random push(or at least you can do heavy eco damage and force units). However make sure to scan their choke before you push and when he has some units in addition to his canons just pull back and take a faster 3rd base. I would have thought quickish medivacs would be good, because cannons aren't very mobile and he will only have a few units that can actually fight. You can go 2 rax, get a faster combat shield AND stim, faster +1, and medivacs all by 8:30-9:00, before the protoss really has a chance to make anything significant (warp gate will finish around 8-9 minutes with 3-7 gates). It's not a random timing, it's a calculated push at a time when you know your opponent CAN'T defend. If you opened with a 13 gas and your opponent went nexus first into Forge, you basically automatically win because of the possibility of a 2 rax stim attack as mentioned above. There are so many things you can do (thor rush, hellion drop, etc) with a 13 gas against a 15 nexus into Forge there's no way he can stop it, with his delayed units and delayed warpgates and immobile cannons. For this reason, most players go 15 nexus into Gateway unless they scout no gas from the terran, in which case they go 15 nexus into Forge. Alternatively, they blindly go for the Forge and hope the terran is playing gasless. Either way, if he goes 15 nexus into Forge you should use your gas, take a second gas, and do a strong attack with tech that he can't defend.
Okay that would make sense. I did mean with all the upgrades you could get, just didn't know when it would hit and what you would have.
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Hi evey one, recently i've no problem to hold zerg's all ins but protoss's all ins are almost unscootable and unstopable(like 6 gates , dt's, ect...) , how to scout them and counter them as a terran 1 rax expanding or cc first ?
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On July 21 2012 07:09 Sprite825 wrote:
Hi evey one, recently i've no problem to hold zerg's all ins but protoss's all ins are almost unscootable and unstopable(like 6 gates , dt's, ect...) , how to scout them and counter them as a terran 1 rax expanding or cc first ?
once you use your first mule from your second CC, save 2 scans until you get a turret at your expo. Scan the protoss main at 8-9 minutes to count his tech and gates, usually you can figure out his plan. If you see a bunch of gates warping in, build more bunkers and take your third inside your base. Focus on simply macroing up your units, scvs and getting your upgrades while you wait for his all in.
However if you scout a 3rd nexus or standard tech tree (maybe robo/colo) take your third and start to get out medivacs and vikings. It's not that hard to scout protoss.. just dont be afraid to make an additional bunker when you are worried. The biggest issue you will face is proxy tech but even that is not so hard, turrets and bunkers shut down almost every single protoss all in.
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On July 21 2012 07:09 Sprite825 wrote:
Hi evey one, recently i've no problem to hold zerg's all ins but protoss's all ins are almost unscootable and unstopable(like 6 gates , dt's, ect...) , how to scout them and counter them as a terran 1 rax expanding or cc first ?
Scouting the standard allins like 4 gate, dt, immortal, stargate is not that hard, basically you stay in his base until arround 4 minutes.
2 gas -> either sentry expand or dt,blink,immortal, stargate
1 gas -> high chrono + no 3rd pylon = 4 gate
You can hold of every allin by focussing on units and bunkers and delay your starport tech. Also make sure to safe 1-2 scans until 7 minutes and build a turret at that time to be safe aggainst dts. Arround 5:00 - 5:30 do a rescout to see whether he has taken his natrual or not.
When he is doing a 1 gate fe try to scout arround your base after 6:00 - 6:30, that´s arround the time warpgate finishes without chronoboosting. If they have offensive pylons somewhere prepare for allins. Do the same after 7 minutes because 6 or 7 gate allins come later than the 4 - 5 gate allins ater 1 gate fe. Keep in mind that basically you have 3 rax while your opponent have 4-7 gates, which gives gim a way bigger army, so you should not go easy on bunker and repairs.
The first "engagement" is key in this situation. You want to loose as less units as possible during each attack, because his production will outproduce you on units and if he can manage to get a huge percentage of your army you are basically dead.
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When engaging an ling/infestor/baneling army in TvZ, should I shift click focus fire the infestors or the banes with my tanks?
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On July 21 2012 20:26 Sianos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:09 Sprite825 wrote:
Hi evey one, recently i've no problem to hold zerg's all ins but protoss's all ins are almost unscootable and unstopable(like 6 gates , dt's, ect...) , how to scout them and counter them as a terran 1 rax expanding or cc first ? Scouting the standard allins like 4 gate, dt, immortal, stargate is not that hard, basically you stay in his base until arround 4 minutes. 2 gas -> either sentry expand or dt,blink,immortal, stargate 1 gas -> high chrono + no 3rd pylon = 4 gate You can hold of every allin by focussing on units and bunkers and delay your starport tech. Also make sure to safe 1-2 scans until 7 minutes and build a turret at that time to be safe aggainst dts. Arround 5:00 - 5:30 do a rescout to see whether he has taken his natrual or not. When he is doing a 1 gate fe try to scout arround your base after 6:00 - 6:30, that´s arround the time warpgate finishes without chronoboosting. If they have offensive pylons somewhere prepare for allins. Do the same after 7 minutes because 6 or 7 gate allins come later than the 4 - 5 gate allins ater 1 gate fe. Keep in mind that basically you have 3 rax while your opponent have 4-7 gates, which gives gim a way bigger army, so you should not go easy on bunker and repairs. The first "engagement" is key in this situation. You want to loose as less units as possible during each attack, because his production will outproduce you on units and if he can manage to get a huge percentage of your army you are basically dead.
And the issue comes when they do the 2 gas, 2 in each gas build that can go into about anything after you scout.
That's the hard one to know.
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Yes, protoss allins are the most powerful :/ need a lot of work to response to them.
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On July 21 2012 21:36 Omgoodnessess wrote:
When engaging an ling/infestor/baneling army in TvZ, should I shift click focus fire the infestors or the banes with my tanks?
I tend to target fire blings with my first volley, then focus infestors when they come into range. Infestors come in after, and blings usually will be too close attacking my bio before I can get a second volley off.
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 22 2012 00:41 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 20:26 Sianos wrote:On July 21 2012 07:09 Sprite825 wrote:
Hi evey one, recently i've no problem to hold zerg's all ins but protoss's all ins are almost unscootable and unstopable(like 6 gates , dt's, ect...) , how to scout them and counter them as a terran 1 rax expanding or cc first ? Scouting the standard allins like 4 gate, dt, immortal, stargate is not that hard, basically you stay in his base until arround 4 minutes. 2 gas -> either sentry expand or dt,blink,immortal, stargate 1 gas -> high chrono + no 3rd pylon = 4 gate You can hold of every allin by focussing on units and bunkers and delay your starport tech. Also make sure to safe 1-2 scans until 7 minutes and build a turret at that time to be safe aggainst dts. Arround 5:00 - 5:30 do a rescout to see whether he has taken his natrual or not. When he is doing a 1 gate fe try to scout arround your base after 6:00 - 6:30, that´s arround the time warpgate finishes without chronoboosting. If they have offensive pylons somewhere prepare for allins. Do the same after 7 minutes because 6 or 7 gate allins come later than the 4 - 5 gate allins ater 1 gate fe. Keep in mind that basically you have 3 rax while your opponent have 4-7 gates, which gives gim a way bigger army, so you should not go easy on bunker and repairs. The first "engagement" is key in this situation. You want to loose as less units as possible during each attack, because his production will outproduce you on units and if he can manage to get a huge percentage of your army you are basically dead. And the issue comes when they do the 2 gas, 2 in each gas build that can go into about anything after you scout. That's the hard one to know.
I never faced a Protoss who just put´s 2 guys in each gas, but the reaction to it should still be the same: Do a rescout at the nat, have 1 turret by 7 minutes, scout arround your base.
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On July 22 2012 02:33 Sianos wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 22 2012 00:41 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 20:26 Sianos wrote:On July 21 2012 07:09 Sprite825 wrote:
Hi evey one, recently i've no problem to hold zerg's all ins but protoss's all ins are almost unscootable and unstopable(like 6 gates , dt's, ect...) , how to scout them and counter them as a terran 1 rax expanding or cc first ? Scouting the standard allins like 4 gate, dt, immortal, stargate is not that hard, basically you stay in his base until arround 4 minutes. 2 gas -> either sentry expand or dt,blink,immortal, stargate 1 gas -> high chrono + no 3rd pylon = 4 gate You can hold of every allin by focussing on units and bunkers and delay your starport tech. Also make sure to safe 1-2 scans until 7 minutes and build a turret at that time to be safe aggainst dts. Arround 5:00 - 5:30 do a rescout to see whether he has taken his natrual or not. When he is doing a 1 gate fe try to scout arround your base after 6:00 - 6:30, that´s arround the time warpgate finishes without chronoboosting. If they have offensive pylons somewhere prepare for allins. Do the same after 7 minutes because 6 or 7 gate allins come later than the 4 - 5 gate allins ater 1 gate fe. Keep in mind that basically you have 3 rax while your opponent have 4-7 gates, which gives gim a way bigger army, so you should not go easy on bunker and repairs. The first "engagement" is key in this situation. You want to loose as less units as possible during each attack, because his production will outproduce you on units and if he can manage to get a huge percentage of your army you are basically dead. And the issue comes when they do the 2 gas, 2 in each gas build that can go into about anything after you scout. That's the hard one to know. I never faced a Protoss who just put´s 2 guys in each gas, but the reaction to it should still be the same: Do a rescout at the nat, have 1 turret by 7 minutes, scout arround your base.
...It's a somewhat standard opening, I see it quite often these days. It's slightly later nexus than normal 1 gas version, but still FEs and can tech surprisingly fast as well.
Just pointing that out though, there are more than those 2 openings from protoss. Sometimes it's not that straight forward.
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1 rax fe is for learning macro as a <master player, that doesn't mean that every terran 1 rax fe, i know many T meching against P.
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EPT
