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On July 20 2012 03:32 spilledmilk wrote: I am looking for advice on transitioning. This is by far my weakest game aspect. I either get stuck in a tech for too long, or I go to fast and end up killing myself with lack of units. Part of the issue is my scouting, unless the building is there I really don't know how to predict a path.
I mean yes you can say well the meta dictates that blah blah blah will happen, but the meta is ever changing, and it varies player to player.
I am pretty comfortable with timings from watching pro replays, etc. The issue I am having is bronze league. The game does not flow the same way.
Now I used to be gold, then stopped playing, and my game is just now starting to pick back up, I have been playing Silvers/Golds but still mostly bronze, and it is having a detrimental effect on my overall game.
I am just wondering how I should be working on transitions.
My main build is 3 rax/Fact/Sport into Expand around 7 minutes, but I also use 1 Rax FE often as well. Generally I push or drop around 10 minutes, with +1/+1, Stim/Shields/Concs 2-3 Medivacs, and about 20-25 mixed MM. Follow that up with an Expo, and depending on how the attack goes I may double expo.
I don't often lose until the 20-25+ minutes mark, meaning at some point I think I am missing something. I just don't seem to be able to effectively transition to the late game, I feel I get strong unit mixtures in all my MU's, but unless I win in 15-20 minutes I may as well right the game off.
Any suggestions on how to work on my Transition mechanics, and what scouting information should prompt me to transition, so I am not building things to soon, or to late. (to late really only applies to TvP and TvZ I think to me as they can Warp In or stock Larvae and once tech is ready have an army you can't deal with.)
Is there any secret to this or is it just something that you have to pick up on from your gut?
Alone because of the fact that your main build is 3 rax/fac/port into expandtion at 7 minutes(!!!) tells me that your biggest weakpoint is macro. You really don´t have to concern about any tech your opponent does (except cloak tech) because you will just have way more stuff than your opponent than his tech units can handle. However to adress your request:
TvP: The first timing to spot for your opponent tech is 10 minutes. At this time his first tech units will be out which will either be ht or collo. The tech "switch" into the other stuff normally happens when they take their 3rd base, because they need a hell lot of gas. Your reaction to collo should be a 2nd starport and vikings, while your reaction to ht should be ghosts before vikings.
TvZ: Mutasor infestors tend to come between 10-12 minutes, when your opponent get´s a fast 3rd it´s delayed by additional 2 minutes. The timing for hive units to kick in is ~ 16-17 minutes. (That really depends on how much the terran player can force trades)
However in lower leagues (below diamond) the timings are way off and people just play random and get the units they want at the moment and don´t care about stuff like "enemy composition" or constant worker + army production. I would like to adress you to this link to work on the basics first. You will be surprised how easy it is to get into diamond or masters. The time where you carefully start thinking about unit composition, tech switches and tactics is about when you hit diamond, because that´s where the people start to play "normally" and "predictable".
On July 19 2012 08:22 Jockmcplop wrote: Hi silver terran here. Quick question: How do i manage to make sure i get a good concave in a TvP when both armies are out on the map? Obviously this is the difference between winning and losing the match in pretty much 100% of lategame TvPs and at the moment i seem to lose them all lol.
Thanks!
The only way (I know how) to do it is just to manually spread out your army into a concave. You always need to be aware of where the protoss army is, so sensor towers and scanning ahead when it's maxed vs maxed is extremely key. You can pre-concave your army out and you will just get better at doing it with practice. There are also a number of micro custom maps vs protoss deathballs.
Wow - there are custom micro trainers for protoss deathball practice? Can you (or others) recommend any of these? What would the search term be?
Are there other good microtrainers out there for other situations (e.g. tank lines)
On July 20 2012 03:32 spilledmilk wrote: I am looking for advice on transitioning. This is by far my weakest game aspect. I either get stuck in a tech for too long, or I go to fast and end up killing myself with lack of units. Part of the issue is my scouting, unless the building is there I really don't know how to predict a path.
I mean yes you can say well the meta dictates that blah blah blah will happen, but the meta is ever changing, and it varies player to player.
I am pretty comfortable with timings from watching pro replays, etc. The issue I am having is bronze league. The game does not flow the same way.
Now I used to be gold, then stopped playing, and my game is just now starting to pick back up, I have been playing Silvers/Golds but still mostly bronze, and it is having a detrimental effect on my overall game.
I am just wondering how I should be working on transitions.
My main build is 3 rax/Fact/Sport into Expand around 7 minutes, but I also use 1 Rax FE often as well. Generally I push or drop around 10 minutes, with +1/+1, Stim/Shields/Concs 2-3 Medivacs, and about 20-25 mixed MM. Follow that up with an Expo, and depending on how the attack goes I may double expo.
I don't often lose until the 20-25+ minutes mark, meaning at some point I think I am missing something. I just don't seem to be able to effectively transition to the late game, I feel I get strong unit mixtures in all my MU's, but unless I win in 15-20 minutes I may as well right the game off.
Any suggestions on how to work on my Transition mechanics, and what scouting information should prompt me to transition, so I am not building things to soon, or to late. (to late really only applies to TvP and TvZ I think to me as they can Warp In or stock Larvae and once tech is ready have an army you can't deal with.)
Is there any secret to this or is it just something that you have to pick up on from your gut?
Use scans and drops as your primary methods of scouting. Also, 1 rax FE is definitely the build to use rather than getting 5 production facilities before expanding. With good micro, you can hold off almost any of those silly bronze league cheeses.
For late game TvP and TvZ, the key is to sac scvs, make mass orbitals, and keep on adding a ton of production facilities to at least have reasonably close production capabilities.
On July 19 2012 08:22 Jockmcplop wrote: Hi silver terran here. Quick question: How do i manage to make sure i get a good concave in a TvP when both armies are out on the map? Obviously this is the difference between winning and losing the match in pretty much 100% of lategame TvPs and at the moment i seem to lose them all lol.
Thanks!
The only way (I know how) to do it is just to manually spread out your army into a concave. You always need to be aware of where the protoss army is, so sensor towers and scanning ahead when it's maxed vs maxed is extremely key. You can pre-concave your army out and you will just get better at doing it with practice. There are also a number of micro custom maps vs protoss deathballs.
Wow - there are custom micro trainers for protoss deathball practice? Can you (or others) recommend any of these? What would the search term be?
Are there other good microtrainers out there for other situations (e.g. tank lines)
Thanks!
Just search micro and a ton will pop up and just browse through and see which ones are most helpful to you. The Marine Split Challenge is a really good way to warm up and practice mouse speed and accuracy, and the action of splitting vs. banelings is essentially similar to the quick boxing and moving that is involved in concaving your army. Also, Darglein's Micro Trainer has a ton of scenarios for every matchup including protoss deathballs and various other situations that are actually quite applicable to in game experiences.
On July 20 2012 03:32 spilledmilk wrote: I am looking for advice on transitioning. This is by far my weakest game aspect. I either get stuck in a tech for too long, or I go to fast and end up killing myself with lack of units. Part of the issue is my scouting, unless the building is there I really don't know how to predict a path.
I mean yes you can say well the meta dictates that blah blah blah will happen, but the meta is ever changing, and it varies player to player.
I am pretty comfortable with timings from watching pro replays, etc. The issue I am having is bronze league. The game does not flow the same way.
Now I used to be gold, then stopped playing, and my game is just now starting to pick back up, I have been playing Silvers/Golds but still mostly bronze, and it is having a detrimental effect on my overall game.
I am just wondering how I should be working on transitions.
My main build is 3 rax/Fact/Sport into Expand around 7 minutes, but I also use 1 Rax FE often as well. Generally I push or drop around 10 minutes, with +1/+1, Stim/Shields/Concs 2-3 Medivacs, and about 20-25 mixed MM. Follow that up with an Expo, and depending on how the attack goes I may double expo.
I don't often lose until the 20-25+ minutes mark, meaning at some point I think I am missing something. I just don't seem to be able to effectively transition to the late game, I feel I get strong unit mixtures in all my MU's, but unless I win in 15-20 minutes I may as well right the game off.
Any suggestions on how to work on my Transition mechanics, and what scouting information should prompt me to transition, so I am not building things to soon, or to late. (to late really only applies to TvP and TvZ I think to me as they can Warp In or stock Larvae and once tech is ready have an army you can't deal with.)
Is there any secret to this or is it just something that you have to pick up on from your gut?
Alone because of the fact that your main build is 3 rax/fac/port into expandtion at 7 minutes(!!!) tells me that your biggest weakpoint is macro. You really don´t have to concern about any tech your opponent does (except cloak tech) because you will just have way more stuff than your opponent than his tech units can handle. However to adress your request:
TvP: The first timing to spot for your opponent tech is 10 minutes. At this time his first tech units will be out which will either be ht or collo. The tech "switch" into the other stuff normally happens when they take their 3rd base, because they need a hell lot of gas. Your reaction to collo should be a 2nd starport and vikings, while your reaction to ht should be ghosts before vikings.
TvZ: Mutasor infestors tend to come between 10-12 minutes, when your opponent get´s a fast 3rd it´s delayed by additional 2 minutes. The timing for hive units to kick in is ~ 16-17 minutes. (That really depends on how much the terran player can force trades)
However in lower leagues (below diamond) the timings are way off and people just play random and get the units they want at the moment and don´t care about stuff like "enemy composition" or constant worker + army production. I would like to adress you to this link to work on the basics first. You will be surprised how easy it is to get into diamond or masters. The time where you carefully start thinking about unit composition, tech switches and tactics is about when you hit diamond, because that´s where the people start to play "normally" and "predictable".
Thanks for the insight!
The only reason I don't expand is because it lets me get my bio upgrades out sooner (t lab ones). I choose to prioritize this in TvT and it has worked for me efficiently in TvP and TvZ so far. I do 1 Rax FE depending what I scout and a go in many different directions with it (Delayed 1:1:1 2 Factory Starport Hellion into Thor Banshee blah blah blah) but for the low league this Betaesque 1 base play has been working great (86th > 4th in about 5 hours of playing using it.)
I find it really punishes fast expands (which everyone does) but isn't to weak (but susceptible if you don't scout) all ins. So I don't want to change my opening to much. I have no issues until late game.
Mostly because I can't recognize a timing window. The late game I can see transitioned to in higher level games is non existent in my league.and it is bugging the hell out of me. I scout way more using scan then I should have to simply because there is no structure.
Some replays people build literally 1 of every building then just make units from them, 1-2 of each every round. I just am looking for ways to recognize transition timing, such as 3 gas means what to me. I can't advance because I don't know what to look for now, because my opponents are all over the place, one game you can kind of see someone who has a game plan, and in the majority of others the player really has no plan and is just playing a game. Which makes it hard to progress all though most easy to win against early, But I am not really able to take things from losses because in almost every circumstance it is because I DID something stupid, and not because I DIDN'T do something I should have. (which is almost equally as frustrating, getting dropped after you scout the tech is bad, and it hurts a lot.)
I just don't know, I can't learn from replays of me losing when the guy builds one of every tech structure, mostly because they just get smoke showed, and in games I do lose its because of something I did, but the losses that count, against Silver and Gold players, I can't recognize timing pushes from them, or tech timing, because like me they have honed in a couple builds that they can execute efficiently. (Maybe they have same issue when I win???)
Ya I dunno how much I am going to change my most fluid opening, But thank you for the timings I will keep them in mind for the replays I watch that I lose. Escaping bronze league is hard! =(
On July 20 2012 07:51 DwindleFlip wrote: I have no idea how to make terran useful anymore. Its just so hard now. What do you open with vs zerg and toss now?
Depending how I scout ill either go hard MMM or I will go TMM.
Toss is pretty much 100% always MMM as it is presently really the only truly viable option.
Zerg is MMM is they go to Roach or TMM is they go to banelings.
Depending on how the MU plays out Banshees or Vikings could be added, but for me the core is MMM or MMT (with Medivacs added after tanks.)
On July 20 2012 07:51 DwindleFlip wrote: I have no idea how to make terran useful anymore. Its just so hard now. What do you open with vs zerg and toss now?
1 rax fe works great, but with different follow-ups for the 2 MUs.
On July 20 2012 07:51 DwindleFlip wrote: I have no idea how to make terran useful anymore. Its just so hard now. What do you open with vs zerg and toss now?
Rank 7 Masters Terran.
Versus Zerg: 1 rax gasless FE (skip the second depot, scout immediately after the first depot completes) into fast two gas when you have 150 minerals. Get a bunker at your natural. You should have 100 gas when your expo completes; make a factory next to your barracks. After four marines, stop marine production and get a reactor. Swap the rax and the factory, make 2-6 hellions. If you see a third with your first two hellions, get a third and proceed into bio/mech play. You usually end up with an excess of gas with this build, so you can go double upgrades, but I prefer fast siege mode after the first four hellions. Scan for zerg tech (muta, though it's mostly infestor these days). Push the fourth and remember to recede the creep!
Versus Protoss (hardest matchup imo): 1 rax gasless FE (same as above). Instead of getting double gas, go up to three rax and get a single gas. When your third rax completes, you should have enough gas for a tech lab. Get stim as soon as you have 100 gas, as well as a second refinery. Scanning is a bit tricky -- you can scan his main, which is a hit and miss sometimes, or his natural. Look for robos and twilight councils and be wary for an all in push if you don't see any. Alternatively, you can check his probes at his natural and his sentry count. For a better guide, look at Day[9]'s daily on Bomber's TvP "revolution".
12 rax 1 marine 17 orbital (you can get about 1/2 of an scv finished before the rax finishes)
Usually I 1 rax expand in most matchups and was wondering if 17 orbital or 16 orbital was better and why. Any help would be awesome.
Thanks!!
Some math guys determined that 17 orbital was ever-so-slightly better because the non-worker cut is worth delaying the mule by a bit-- you end up 20ish minerals ahead.
Lately I've had zergs not taking gass and I expect a quick 3rd as no gass indicates this. They clear up my scouting scv at their 3rd with a few initial lings. But then they throw down double gass and roach bane busts me. I normally get pretty stomped to this because I don't have the necessary bunkers, and I take a pretty quick 3rd. How am I supposed to know this is coming?
On July 20 2012 10:45 siii wrote: Lately I've had zergs not taking gass and I expect a quick 3rd as no gass indicates this. They clear up my scouting scv at their 3rd with a few initial lings. But then they throw down double gass and roach bane busts me. I normally get pretty stomped to this because I don't have the necessary bunkers, and I take a pretty quick 3rd. How am I supposed to know this is coming?
I suggest making a couple tanks for the 7:30 ish mark with siege. They are pretty effective against pretty much all pre lair zerg units. Back these up with Marauders with Shells and Stim (if you get one gas before expo both should finish around 7:30/7:45)
Essentially this is designed to hold against really any zerg early threat. Mix in marines as you can.
I use 3 Rax, Fact, into Star Port Banshees. This is off one base. (I feel it is advantageous in my league due to people attempting fast expand builds but not being able to execute them effectively.)
It punishes both Early thirds, or Roach Bane all ins. If the attack doesn't come by your second banshee, send them to the third and contain the main.
Slowly pincer the Zerg and Expand behind it. Depending on the success of your attack (killed third or natural) you can expand twice, and doom drop the main ftw.
But if your attack fails because of bad positioning, you will probably die.
On July 20 2012 01:01 Zoey.hu wrote: Hello I'm a Top Dia ( Rank 1 ) EU Terran player and now I play against masters in TvZ i have no problem, but in TvP i can't win. No matter what i do i can make fast FE or hellion harrass in the early game in the end the deathball always kill me. I don't really know who to deal with that i have cloacked ghosts, vikings and mmm with 3/3 on bio and 3/0 on air and still lose. Can someone tell me how to deal with that protoss late game? No matter how i engage or how good my emps are i still lose all fights because of the warpins. So pls help me how to deal with toss late game. Thank you!
I posted this a while back in the thread, but the question keeps coming up so I'll post it again:
LastShadow covered how to dissect the protoss deathball in one of his vlogs before he deleted all of them. It's a complicated process and really hard to pull off effectively (whereas protoss can 1-a and win most of the time), but it goes something like this: 1) SNIPE THE OBSERVER - use vikings to snipe the observer...you can kind of 1a towards his army and scan and you'll pretty much always snipe it. If you don't have time, just make sure you use ghosts to snipe it. 2) LET THE PROTOSS COME TO YOU - in these max versus max armies, you should keep your army back with your medivacs in the back. You should NOT stim into a protoss deathball. Ever. 3) SNIPE ANY TEMPLARS WITH GHOSTS - snipe/EMP any templars that are leading. Remember that the cloaked ghosts are useless if you didn't snipe the observer. After you snipe templars, try to set you ghosts in a line in front of your army to mess with the chargelot AI. 4) TARGET COLOSSUS - shift-click the colossus with vikings and let them micro themselves. You can also focus fire with cloaked ghosts to take them down faster. 5) LET THE ZEALOTS CHARGE INTO YOU - Let the zealots burn charge before you split. Make sure marauders are up front to soak up the damage, but have primarily marines (1:3 ratio) in your composition. After all the zealots burn their charge, start kiting with your entire bioball. When you kill like 70-80% of the zealots, split your army into 3 parts to make a good arc. 6) BLANKET EVERYTHING IN EMPS - if you're fairly sure you got most of the templars and the protoss starts charging into you, start EMPing everything particularly the archons/sentries.
In the end, you line of defense should look like: Cloaked ghosts leading, sniping templars and EMPing, setting themselves up in a line; bioball behind with marauders in front, medivacs all the way behind your ball; and vikings overhead sniping the colossus. This is all contingent on sniping that observer at the beginning!! KEEPING YOUR GHOSTS ALIVE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART!!
I hope this helps!
EDIT: The final endgame army generally looks like 6-8 medivacs, ~10 vikings, ~8 full-energy ghosts, bioball with a 3:1 marine/marauder ratio, and 2 medivacs loaded with marauders dropping somewhere in his base. EDIT: If you do this right, you will ROLL over toss lategame armies laughing. EDIT: LastShadow vlog is back up:
On July 20 2012 10:45 siii wrote: Lately I've had zergs not taking gass and I expect a quick 3rd as no gass indicates this. They clear up my scouting scv at their 3rd with a few initial lings. But then they throw down double gass and roach bane busts me. I normally get pretty stomped to this because I don't have the necessary bunkers, and I take a pretty quick 3rd. How am I supposed to know this is coming?
If you don't see a gas going down by 4:00 with your initial SCV scout, you know that it is impossible for zerg to have zergling speed until ~7:00. If you just scout with a handful of marines (~6-16, depending on the strategy you're doing) at 6:00-6:30, you know you can be totally fine. You should be able to get the SCV scout in during this timing too, as slow lings actually don't kill SCVs very fast.
So, just remember to take note of the time when the gas FIRST goes down, then add 3 minutes and say "I'm safe until X:XX".
12 rax 1 marine 17 orbital (you can get about 1/2 of an scv finished before the rax finishes)
Usually I 1 rax expand in most matchups and was wondering if 17 orbital or 16 orbital was better and why. Any help would be awesome.
Thanks!!
There is actually a definite reason why most players go orbital on 15 (16 by your assessment). The reasoning is mainly due to how 1rax expands work. If you go for depot, rax, CC, depot, you actually end up having to cut marine production for a little bit while the second depot is getting up, which is something that you CAN'T do in a lot of situations, most particularly in TvP when the protoss chronos a zealot out (you need at least 2 marines to deal with it).
Orbital on 16 (17 by your assessment) is okay in some other situations where you don't need an early 2nd and 3rd marine. It's SLIGHTLY more economic, but again, it makes you have to cut a marine and stop continuous production again. I prefer to get orbital on 15 just so that I can continually produce in a 1rax expand.
Hi, im looking for a 6min timing attack build with, Marine siege tanks and medis for drop harass play. been look at builds the past 2 hours cannot find any anywhere, does this build work and is there a build order i can see? having problems playing 1raxfe into tanks and medis vs terran looking to switch things up. Thank you.
How the fuck do I push my supposed 'midgame' advantage against protoss? All protosses do against me is 1gate1gas FE into fast colossus. Then, he's impossible to touch for the rest of the game. From there all protoss does is maek moar colossus, get HT with storm so I'm forced into lategame, while chronoboosting double forge upgrades so I'm behind in upgrades too. No matter what he does I can't break him.
Then there's protosses who go FFE in tvp. This is a legitimate question: What am I supposed to do against this? I can't pull my scvs and rush with marines because he gets cannons out by then and holds with cannons and probes. If I go for my typical play, protoss will have 150% of what he typically has because he got his nexus so quickly.
I'm so lost... it always feels like he just sits his army there, waiting to pick a fight with my army, and almost every time I can't win. At best, come out even, at which point I lose to his advance round of reinforcements. It feels like protoss has the advantage in forcing multitasking because every action they have in battles/harassment takes far less focus/apm than the terran equivalent. I end up frantically macroing and keeping a hawk's eye on the minimap and the protoss army, juggling all this shit at once, and one slip up and I lose the game. If I play it juuuust right, I can eventually win after protoss makes several mistakes.
Serious question though, what is the response to Nexus first with forge/rushing for gateways?
TvZ in high masters is impossible right now. I havent won a game in at least 10 tvz's. If I don't lose to the cheesey stephano rushes in the early game I lose to late game army with no chance of getting a 4th base. What the hell am I missing here?
I get the feeling terran is so underpowered. Think I may switch to zerg with everyone else, no one plays this broken race anymore
EPT
