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Hey can some one tell me if this build is viable vZ. Just a little info for you first. I am a platinum player and in the past 10 games vZ i have opened Cloak Banshee. It's opens basically the same as this one here but with a few changes.
Anyway, to my real point. In the last 10 games every zerg has responded by staying on 2 base and teching towards 11-12 minute mutas. I guess this is because they want lair to get overseer for detection for when they move out and mutas go nicely with this since they also work well against bashee play.
I ran through the replays and in every one there seems to be this nice window at about 10:00 where they have just invested into teching and a macro hatch and have a tiny amount of lings, in most cases about 4, and the amount of queens seems to vary from anywhere between 3 to 6 and obviously spores in the mineral lines from the first banshee harass. Most of them had an overseer out to.
So here is my current plan. Open cloak banshee to "force" this window. After the 2nd banshee has begun production get a reactor on the factory and a techlab on the rax. Get stim and start producing marines (should already have 4 in the bunker) again and pump 2 hellions. Get a 7:30 CC in base (I think i could get it earlier if i iron out the bumps a bit) The 2 hellions finish at the same time the 2nd banshee pops so now i switch the factory and the starport. Get blue flame and continue to produce 1 hellion at a time and at the same time get double medivac. Only produce 3 medivacs and get combat shields after the 3rd one has started (the combat shield isn't for the attack but i think it's a good time to get it, the other option is to get a 4th medivac which will be slightly late but if you rally it to the other medivacs it should arrive at the fight 15-20 seconds late, thoughts on which one is better?). Okay so at 9:40 the 3rd medivac pops, and i have 10 marines with stim and 5 hellions with blue flame 15-20 seconds away and 2 banshees with cloak, so depending on the map i should arrive around the 10 minute mark.
What would be the best way to attack? I was thinking i drop everything into his main and head towards his main mineral line. At the same time i could cloak up my banshees and put them between the main and natural because he will have spores in his mineral lines so they will just get taken down there and its unlikely he will have spores between his main and nat and most of his queens will be at his natural and the banshees would intercept the queens and lings as they come up into the main. How ever he may have an overseer so i was thinking it may be a good idea to box 5 or so marines or pre hotkey them and get them to hold position the top of his main ramp delaying queens and lings getting to his main and maybe taking out the overseer if he's not paying attention, while the rest of my force kills pretty much everything in his main.
Obviously i don't want this to be all in and i have an expansion back home to defend from any counter pressure. What would be a good transition out of this opening? I was thinking maybe throwing up a wall of rax as i leave my base to stop any baneling all in counter attempt while most of my army is away from home? (which seems quite likely if i have just roasted a tonne of his drones) I guess this would force me down a bio mech route (marine, hellion, thor, medivac, maybe a banshee or two to take out infestors and force some mutas and since i already have thors mutas shouldnt be to much of a problem right?)
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Why are all the high plat-dia terrans leaving tvt T.T
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Hi
two questions:
1. Scouting is extremely important for all races. So, I have been thinking, is it ok to make a 2nd depot really super early? I use my scvv thats building a rax, then pause his building for a few seconds, make a 2nd depot to deny scouting, then go back to building rax. I may lose some minerals doing this, but I am sure it is worth it because your enemy does not know what you are doing, leaving him in the dark.
But at the same time, if I go 1 rax fe after this, the enemy's overlord will be able to see that I am only doing a 1 rax FE. So, what do you think? Is this viable/worth it?
2. Secondly, what are your thoughts of using tanks for defensive purpose only? So in all matchups, you build tanks but never bring them to battle, but only to have them for defense, in which they are really good at.
What do you think about this too?
Thank you
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On July 09 2012 11:59 dynwar7 wrote:
Hi
two questions:
1. Scouting is extremely important for all races. So, I have been thinking, is it ok to make a 2nd depot really super early? I use my scvv thats building a rax, then pause his building for a few seconds, make a 2nd depot to deny scouting, then go back to building rax. I may lose some minerals doing this, but I am sure it is worth it because your enemy does not know what you are doing, leaving him in the dark.
But at the same time, if I go 1 rax fe after this, the enemy's overlord will be able to see that I am only doing a 1 rax FE. So, what do you think? Is this viable/worth it?
2. Secondly, what are your thoughts of using tanks for defensive purpose only? So in all matchups, you build tanks but never bring them to battle, but only to have them for defense, in which they are really good at.
What do you think about this too?
Thank you
1. If you're going for gas you can't really afford to do it, so your opponent more or less knows that you are gasless if you do that. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on this. I've seen it done and I guess it's fine, but I'm not a big fan of it myself. Besides, with TvZ there really isn't any option besides 1rax FE or 15CC, and Zergs don't even really need to scout to be safe, their overlords will tell them more than enough. Viable? Sure. Worth it? generally no.
2. Pretty standard, at least in TvT, to leave defensive tanks in key locations. I'm not sure buildings tanks just for that purpose is too wise, but if you're going mech or marine/tank you definitely want to leave some of your tanks (while still using the others offensivley) in key positional locations, at least in TvT.
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On July 09 2012 12:12 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 11:59 dynwar7 wrote:
Hi
two questions:
1. Scouting is extremely important for all races. So, I have been thinking, is it ok to make a 2nd depot really super early? I use my scvv thats building a rax, then pause his building for a few seconds, make a 2nd depot to deny scouting, then go back to building rax. I may lose some minerals doing this, but I am sure it is worth it because your enemy does not know what you are doing, leaving him in the dark.
But at the same time, if I go 1 rax fe after this, the enemy's overlord will be able to see that I am only doing a 1 rax FE. So, what do you think? Is this viable/worth it?
2. Secondly, what are your thoughts of using tanks for defensive purpose only? So in all matchups, you build tanks but never bring them to battle, but only to have them for defense, in which they are really good at.
What do you think about this too?
Thank you 1. If you're going for gas you can't really afford to do it, so your opponent more or less knows that you are gasless if you do that. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on this. I've seen it done and I guess it's fine, but I'm not a big fan of it myself. Besides, with TvZ there really isn't any option besides 1rax FE or 15CC, and Zergs don't even really need to scout to be safe, their overlords will tell them more than enough. Viable? Sure. Worth it? generally no. 2. Pretty standard, at least in TvT, to leave defensive tanks in key locations. I'm not sure buildings tanks just for that purpose is too wise, but if you're going mech or marine/tank you definitely want to leave some of your tanks (while still using the others offensivley) in key positional locations, at least in TvT.
Thank you sir.
Yes, regarding number 1, that is exactly what I think. The overlord will tell them anyway. And if I do use the early 2nd depot, their drone/probe/scv can just poke in again to see if I have my 2nd CC at natural.
Hmm.....I thought this would be a good idea, but I guess it is too easily seen and I guess it is fine to let their scout scout your whole base? I mean early in the game, there is nothing to hide anyway, right? I just really dislike when enemy scouts enter my base and chekc around lol....thats why I like missile turrets here and there to deny observer in TvP too.
Anybody else want to share their opinions?
EDIT: I did a research, and if I go early 2nd depot, I finish rax around 15seconds late, and get my 2nd CC around 15-20 seconds late. So, not sure if this is worth it.
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On July 09 2012 12:39 dynwar7 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 12:12 Starshaped wrote:On July 09 2012 11:59 dynwar7 wrote:
Hi
two questions:
1. Scouting is extremely important for all races. So, I have been thinking, is it ok to make a 2nd depot really super early? I use my scvv thats building a rax, then pause his building for a few seconds, make a 2nd depot to deny scouting, then go back to building rax. I may lose some minerals doing this, but I am sure it is worth it because your enemy does not know what you are doing, leaving him in the dark.
But at the same time, if I go 1 rax fe after this, the enemy's overlord will be able to see that I am only doing a 1 rax FE. So, what do you think? Is this viable/worth it?
2. Secondly, what are your thoughts of using tanks for defensive purpose only? So in all matchups, you build tanks but never bring them to battle, but only to have them for defense, in which they are really good at.
What do you think about this too?
Thank you 1. If you're going for gas you can't really afford to do it, so your opponent more or less knows that you are gasless if you do that. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on this. I've seen it done and I guess it's fine, but I'm not a big fan of it myself. Besides, with TvZ there really isn't any option besides 1rax FE or 15CC, and Zergs don't even really need to scout to be safe, their overlords will tell them more than enough. Viable? Sure. Worth it? generally no. 2. Pretty standard, at least in TvT, to leave defensive tanks in key locations. I'm not sure buildings tanks just for that purpose is too wise, but if you're going mech or marine/tank you definitely want to leave some of your tanks (while still using the others offensivley) in key positional locations, at least in TvT. Thank you sir. Yes, regarding number 1, that is exactly what I think. The overlord will tell them anyway. And if I do use the early 2nd depot, their drone/probe/scv can just poke in again to see if I have my 2nd CC at natural. Hmm.....I thought this would be a good idea, but I guess it is too easily seen and I guess it is fine to let their scout scout your whole base? I mean early in the game, there is nothing to hide anyway, right? I just really dislike when enemy scouts enter my base and chekc around lol....thats why I like missile turrets here and there to deny observer in TvP too. Anybody else want to share their opinions? EDIT: I did a research, and if I go early 2nd depot, I finish rax around 15seconds late, and get my 2nd CC around 15-20 seconds late. So, not sure if this is worth it.
Surely you do not finish the 2nd depot, right? You just make it and then instantly go back to building the barracks. Finish the depot when needed. Since you started building it really early there is no actual need, supply-wise, to complete it until later on.
Early scouts can be dealt with by using marines and/or SCVs. Most people won't even stick around past scouting whether you took gas or not, they would rather save their worker and get it back to mining rather than scout around and probably not seeing anything.
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On July 09 2012 13:00 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 12:39 dynwar7 wrote:On July 09 2012 12:12 Starshaped wrote:On July 09 2012 11:59 dynwar7 wrote:
Hi
two questions:
1. Scouting is extremely important for all races. So, I have been thinking, is it ok to make a 2nd depot really super early? I use my scvv thats building a rax, then pause his building for a few seconds, make a 2nd depot to deny scouting, then go back to building rax. I may lose some minerals doing this, but I am sure it is worth it because your enemy does not know what you are doing, leaving him in the dark.
But at the same time, if I go 1 rax fe after this, the enemy's overlord will be able to see that I am only doing a 1 rax FE. So, what do you think? Is this viable/worth it?
2. Secondly, what are your thoughts of using tanks for defensive purpose only? So in all matchups, you build tanks but never bring them to battle, but only to have them for defense, in which they are really good at.
What do you think about this too?
Thank you 1. If you're going for gas you can't really afford to do it, so your opponent more or less knows that you are gasless if you do that. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on this. I've seen it done and I guess it's fine, but I'm not a big fan of it myself. Besides, with TvZ there really isn't any option besides 1rax FE or 15CC, and Zergs don't even really need to scout to be safe, their overlords will tell them more than enough. Viable? Sure. Worth it? generally no. 2. Pretty standard, at least in TvT, to leave defensive tanks in key locations. I'm not sure buildings tanks just for that purpose is too wise, but if you're going mech or marine/tank you definitely want to leave some of your tanks (while still using the others offensivley) in key positional locations, at least in TvT. Thank you sir. Yes, regarding number 1, that is exactly what I think. The overlord will tell them anyway. And if I do use the early 2nd depot, their drone/probe/scv can just poke in again to see if I have my 2nd CC at natural. Hmm.....I thought this would be a good idea, but I guess it is too easily seen and I guess it is fine to let their scout scout your whole base? I mean early in the game, there is nothing to hide anyway, right? I just really dislike when enemy scouts enter my base and chekc around lol....thats why I like missile turrets here and there to deny observer in TvP too. Anybody else want to share their opinions? EDIT: I did a research, and if I go early 2nd depot, I finish rax around 15seconds late, and get my 2nd CC around 15-20 seconds late. So, not sure if this is worth it. Surely you do not finish the 2nd depot, right? You just make it and then instantly go back to building the barracks. Finish the depot when needed. Since you started building it really early there is no actual need, supply-wise, to complete it until later on. Early scouts can be dealt with by using marines and/or SCVs. Most people won't even stick around past scouting whether you took gas or not, they would rather save their worker and get it back to mining rather than scout around and probably not seeing anything.
Yup, so therefore since it is such earlygame, there is nothing to hide, and should I just do what I have been doing? Which is depot, rax, CC first then 2nd depot to complete wall?
Its just...like I said, I want to leave the enemy in the dark, but if it costs too much (rax and CC 20 seconds late) then maybe its fine to skip this tactic?
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I've been wondering, are armour upgrades really even worth it in TvP? In my opinion the only P unit armour is truly beneficial against is the zealot, and zealots are there mostly for tanking damage anyways, they do not tend to get that many hits in before dying. Especially the +3 armour upgrade seems to me somewhat bad investment, but I'd love to hear different opinions on this.
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On July 09 2012 17:52 duckmaster wrote:
I've been wondering, are armour upgrades really even worth it in TvP? In my opinion the only P unit armour is truly beneficial against is the zealot, and zealots are there mostly for tanking damage anyways, they do not tend to get that many hits in before dying. Especially the +3 armour upgrade seems to me somewhat bad investment, but I'd love to hear different opinions on this.
If your +1 on armor upgrades compared to their attack, marauders take: 11 shots to be killed by zealots, 11 shots to be killed by stalkers and 32shots to be killed by sentries; Marines take(combat shield): 4(4) by zealot, 5(7) by stalker, 9(11) by senty.
Compared to when your even on upgrades (aka u are +1 def, they are +1 attack) marauders take: 9 by zealot 10 by stalker and 25 by sentry; Marines take: 3(4) by zealot,5(5) by stalker, 8(9) by sentry.
So its only really beneficial to stay ahead on upgrades if you are heavy marauder. otherwise you still need to keep up with upgrades.
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What to do against Protoss Nexus first?
I've tried double fe, doesn't work well. I've tried 1 rax fe, into 5 rax reactor port, doesn't work well.
I'm stuck against this BO!!!
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I always send an SCV after supply to block nexus, i know its really early scv, and it does hurt your eco abit, but if you actually managed to block his nex 1st, you really messed up his build, as he got to start gateway and everything is delayed.
I dont like responding with early 3rd CC, you just walk into the toss hands by making it a longer macro game.
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On July 09 2012 19:34 dohgg wrote:
I always send an SCV after supply to block nexus, i know its really early scv, and it does hurt your eco abit, but if you actually managed to block his nex 1st, you really messed up his build, as he got to start gateway and everything is delayed.
I dont like responding with early 3rd CC, you just walk into the toss hands by making it a longer macro game.
Ok I'll try that, but say on a 4 base map where you scout after nexus is planted. What is your follow up?
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On July 09 2012 19:28 Qibla wrote:
What to do against Protoss Nexus first?
I've tried double fe, doesn't work well. I've tried 1 rax fe, into 5 rax reactor port, doesn't work well.
I'm stuck against this BO!!!
I guess that's a case for a TvP 2rax.
12rax,13gas, reactor after first marine, add second rax, techlab it, go with first or second marauder, pull 2 scvs for bunker + repair.
Optional: research concussive. Skip conc and pull 1 scv off gas for faster expansion.Conc is really awesome in early tho.
Sometimes the Protoss also use cannons to protect the nat, then you can go for a 111 hellion marine drop and just skip the cannons.
Your double FE probably caused you to just die once the P had colossi out.
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On July 09 2012 19:40 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 19:28 Qibla wrote:
What to do against Protoss Nexus first?
I've tried double fe, doesn't work well. I've tried 1 rax fe, into 5 rax reactor port, doesn't work well.
I'm stuck against this BO!!! I guess that's a case for a TvP 2rax. 12rax,13gas, reactor after first marine, add second rax, techlab it, go with first or second marauder, pull 2 scvs for bunker + repair. Optional: research concussive. Skip conc and pull 1 scv off gas for faster expansion.Conc is really awesome in early tho. Sometimes the Protoss also use cannons to protect the nat, then you can go for a 111 hellion marine drop and just skip the cannons. Your double FE probably caused you to just die once the P had colossi out.
lol...
how can you know that on 13 supply he'll have nexus first... we're talking bout a 1 rax fe situation ( i guess).
On a 4 spawns map, u can still catch it before the nexus first, on the 2ed spawn location, the SCV should reach still in time to block, unless you get quite unlucky... respond with heavy rax pressure, or 3rd CC on 1 marine.
For a good 3rd CC look for Day9 daily that was about Kas TvP 3rd cc, its pretty solid and safe build.
BTW, in general if you scout FFE by toss and you opened with 13 gas, get reaper asap and do tons of damage, was auto win few times for me 
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On July 09 2012 19:28 Qibla wrote:
What to do against Protoss Nexus first?
I've tried double fe, doesn't work well. I've tried 1 rax fe, into 5 rax reactor port, doesn't work well.
I'm stuck against this BO!!!
Usually I just fake a one rax FE into 4 rax marine SCV all in. There's no way they can hold their natural and if you hit em before warp gate is done you win the game. Cannons aren't a big deal either as long as you get there early enough. Just focus em down and you'll roll easily enough.
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How do you know if a 2 base 7.30 roach bane attack is coming? My SCV gets killed sometimes and I cant see if zerg mined more than 100 gas. I think scouting is crucial for me as I lack the control to hold off any pressure with hellion/banshee after 1 rax fe. I need the scouting infomation to hard counter the attack. i.e switching factory for siege mode.
Thanks!
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How do you play bio/mech to someone meching and turtles on 2 base, and eventually the doom push comes out?
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On July 09 2012 21:39 ThaSlayer wrote:
How do you know if a 2 base 7.30 roach bane attack is coming? My SCV gets killed sometimes and I cant see if zerg mined more than 100 gas. I think scouting is crucial for me as I lack the control to hold off any pressure with hellion/banshee after 1 rax fe. I need the scouting infomation to hard counter the attack. i.e switching factory for siege mode.
Thanks!
Scan his main, also 7:30 is really really early for a roach bane attack.
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On July 09 2012 23:51 siii wrote:
How do you play bio/mech to someone meching and turtles on 2 base, and eventually the doom push comes out?
Take a 3rd and 4th base, contain him and kill his army when he moves out.
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EPT
