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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
Ok, so for once in my life I defended the 8:30 roach/bane all-in that isn't all-in. I literally take zero damage from it, and I just have no idea how to follow up. I was just praying he would say gg and leave, but he didn't. I mean, the only reason I held it was because I happened to see it coming a good amount of time before it happened, so I could complete my wall, add a 2nd bunker, pump marauders, and so on. I can only imagine how the game would have turned out without my lucky scout.
As soon as his push was stopped I threw down my 3rd and added factories. I sent the banshees I had accumulated to deny his 3rd, I get double armoury etc. etc.
Even when I look at the replay I don't see any point in time where it's safe for me to put any sort of pressure. In the end it turns into a 200 food vs 200 food splitmap sort of situation, where granted I have a bigger bank, but it still feels like the game should never ever be this fucking close given how the game started... It just feels like the Zerg can just do these damn all-ins that aren't all-in and collect a freewin or, if it fails, play out a normal game and have a good chance at winning.
Any help is appreciated T_T
http://replayfu.com/r/76Pzcf
I was favoured. I find myself constantly favoured vs Zerg. I guess battle.net just hates me.
Edit: High-master EU. Actually, I'm not sure I can say that anymore. All these TvZs in a row have had me end up in mid-high master =(
Edit 2: Thanks @ Phays.
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I've recently been playing with a mass marine/medivac style in TvT that goes for really fast upgrades and then blows up with 9 rax, 7 of which have reactors, takes a fast third, and then abuses high upgrades and mobility. (It's from a variation of FilterSC's build, saw it in a video)
However recently, I get in these situations where my enemy is going marine/tank, and he starts to push up on my base, and it doesn't seem like there's anything I can do. I can't rush him, because tanks/marines will just melt my army, and I can't hold him off, because he will just slowly siege up, doing the turtle hopping. So, my question is, what do I do? The only answer I can seem to think of is to load up some medivacs and drop his base with 3-4 medivacs of marines and hope for a base trade, but even then, that's hoping that he doesn't have sieged tanks/marines in his base.
In case it is pertinent, I am a high plat Terran. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Note: I heard that you can put 2-3 bunkers down and then just repair them, but I don't see how that can work, since he will just aim the tanks at the repairing SCVs, and then take out the bunkers.
Summary: How can you stop marine/tank pushes where they turtle hop tanks, without getting your own tanks/vikings? Or is that the only option, to just get tanks yourself?
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I'm having trouble in TvP when the protoss gets that ridiculous number of archons(4+) and then reinforces w/ mass zealot. I am sure someone else has asked this question, but I'm too lazy to search through this thread to find it >< Also I am High Diamond playing Low Master league players.
Thanks in advance!!
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What are some good 1 base all ins for each matchup? I've been thinking about learning a few of them to expand my arsenal and it gives some shorter games.
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On June 29 2012 20:33 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 20:31 Blazinghand wrote:On June 29 2012 20:29 monkybone wrote:On June 29 2012 09:41 Blazinghand wrote:On June 29 2012 09:27 StaNislaV.Kh wrote:On June 29 2012 09:24 Blazinghand wrote:
You need wall to beat 6 pool. If you make wall, you'll be okay-- so a 14 CC that walls your ramp should buy you time. If you build it on the low ground, you'll probably have to cancel, and might lose to just the zergling harass, or get pretty behind. Typically as a terran player you'll never see 6 pool, since a large number of terran builds wall and auto-win against it, making it risky for the zerg to use. Yes, but Im see on stream MKP play 14 CC vs 6 pool on Antiga and lost. And on GSL aLive vs Leenock, but aLive play very bad... Yes, this is because 6 pool can beat 14 CC if it's on the low ground-- it's a build order win. If you wall with a 1 rax FE, though, you always beat 6 pool. Against every build but 14 CC, 6 pool is bad. Sometimes, if you see a pro player like MKP who always 14CC, the zerg knows this. So he goes 6 pool. But for a normal player 6 pool is very rare, since they don't know you have a history of 14CC. since a 6 pooling zerg can't possibly scout a 14CC and then decide to 6 pool or not, it's always a metagame play. No one simply 6 pools and sends lings. You will have to deal with 1 or 2 drones blocking a potential wall-in. In no way does 1 rax FE make 6 pool a BO loss. Dealing with 1 or 2 drones blocking a wall-in is no problem. I've been 6 pooled. Any build that begins a wall with a supply depot and a barracks can make the 2nd depot, even with some silly drone trying to make you sad. Replay?
http://drop.sc/209920
Not to mention I don't think a 6 pool that harasses with 2 drones has enough to make anything but 6 lings.
[B]On June 30 2012 02:31 MrTwiggy wrote:
I've recently been playing with a mass marine/medivac style in TvT that goes for really fast upgrades and then blows up with 9 rax, 7 of which have reactors, takes a fast third, and then abuses high upgrades and mobility. (It's from a variation of FilterSC's build, saw it in a video)
However recently, I get in these situations where my enemy is going marine/tank, and he starts to push up on my base, and it doesn't seem like there's anything I can do. I can't rush him, because tanks/marines will just melt my army, and I can't hold him off, because he will just slowly siege up, doing the turtle hopping. So, my question is, what do I do? The only answer I can seem to think of is to load up some medivacs and drop his base with 3-4 medivacs of marines and hope for a base trade, but even then, that's hoping that he doesn't have sieged tanks/marines in his base.
In case it is pertinent, I am a high plat Terran. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Note: I heard that you can put 2-3 bunkers down and then just repair them, but I don't see how that can work, since he will just aim the tanks at the repairing SCVs, and then take out the bunkers.
Summary: How can you stop marine/tank pushes where they turtle hop tanks, without getting your own tanks/vikings? Or is that the only option, to just get tanks yourself?
That's because of the flow of TvT. Marine tank > bio > mech > marinetank. Marine tank has almost as much infantry, and medics as you, and equal upgrades, with tanks zoning out you from really engaging them. They have mobility, like you, and everything you have, albeit a few less marines.
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On June 30 2012 02:31 MrTwiggy wrote:
I've recently been playing with a mass marine/medivac style in TvT that goes for really fast upgrades and then blows up with 9 rax, 7 of which have reactors, takes a fast third, and then abuses high upgrades and mobility. (It's from a variation of FilterSC's build, saw it in a video)
However recently, I get in these situations where my enemy is going marine/tank, and he starts to push up on my base, and it doesn't seem like there's anything I can do. I can't rush him, because tanks/marines will just melt my army, and I can't hold him off, because he will just slowly siege up, doing the turtle hopping. So, my question is, what do I do? The only answer I can seem to think of is to load up some medivacs and drop his base with 3-4 medivacs of marines and hope for a base trade, but even then, that's hoping that he doesn't have sieged tanks/marines in his base.
In case it is pertinent, I am a high plat Terran. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Note: I heard that you can put 2-3 bunkers down and then just repair them, but I don't see how that can work, since he will just aim the tanks at the repairing SCVs, and then take out the bunkers.
Summary: How can you stop marine/tank pushes where they turtle hop tanks, without getting your own tanks/vikings? Or is that the only option, to just get tanks yourself?
I'm guessing this is about midgame. I've watched that build and FilterSC says when the enemy's tank count becomes high you should get tanks yourself. Also you have to be very active and constantly apply pressure (you should have better marines): drop him, snipe his third. Pick him apart and then you also have this nice timing where you're 2-2 very early on and you can destroy small tank counts with ease.
A good note: this build is very weak against early attacks since it sacrifices unit production to get lots of upgrades going early on.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 30 2012 03:31 MysteryTerran wrote:
I'm having trouble in TvP when the protoss gets that ridiculous number of archons(4+) and then reinforces w/ mass zealot. I am sure someone else has asked this question, but I'm too lazy to search through this thread to find it >< Also I am High Diamond playing Low Master league players.
Thanks in advance!!
This can be approached 2 different ways:
1) If you go for a marauder-heavy composition, just kite the zealots out of range of the archons until you kill most of them, then try to kill off archons with good EMPs and ff. If they reinforce with zealots, just keep kiting, rally to the front. This is known as "rinse and repeat", and generally works in open areas with a lot of space. Just be careful of your medivacs so they don't get focused down by archons.
2) If you go for a marine-heavy composition, you can simply use good positioning as well as some good EMPs to deal with the army in a straight-up confrontation. This good positioning generally means at a choke or the top of a ramp in a concave formation. Marines eat zealots alive, and a few good EMPs on clustered archons completely negates them.
I think the key in either case is to make sure you buy enough time for ghosts. Ghosts are really the only thing terran has to deal with that ridiculous archon count.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 30 2012 03:32 Sennin wrote:
What are some good 1 base all ins for each matchup? I've been thinking about learning a few of them to expand my arsenal and it gives some shorter games.
I think 1-base all-in cheeses are GREAT as an addition to solid macro builds; I try to practice one every 3 games or so! Anywayz, just wanted to point that out because most people try to just learn cheese builds to get some easy wins. It's about variety!
I have a general understanding of a bunch of all-ins, but I'll only give you the ones I'm really familiar with:
TvZ: I generally go 1rax FE into 4rax marine production. If you manage to scout no gas and an early 3rd, you can pull all SCVs with 17ish marines around 7:30, rallying to the front. Pushing out with 4-5 marines early to clear a watchtower or 2 will allow your push to go unscouted. This works best on maps like Cloud Kingdom or Antiga Shipyards. I have a good amount of success with this build.
TvT: 1-base 1-1-1 speed reaper/hellion/medivac all-in. Open gas first and get an early reaper for harassment and scouting. YOU CANNOT LOSE THIS REAPER. Deny scouting and tech up to starport, constantly producing reapers and hellions. Get nitro packs asap. When you get your fist medivac out, you should have 3-4 reapers, 3 hellions, and a medivac. If your opponent goes for any kind of marine-based opening, this all-in will do very well with good micro.
TvP: Proxy marauders. Proxy a barracks early on and produce mass marauder with concussive. When you get 3-4, attack into his main base, using marauders to kite early zealot/stalkers. Be wary of a probe surround, especially on the ramp. Your goal is to use this marauder pressure to "rinse and repeat" until your opponent can get out warp gate. If you manage to take minimal losses, you can eventually overrun him and kill off enough probes to win.
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@ Starshaped
Sorry, but first you got supply blocked at 13:49-15:00, you didn't lose that much army because you were making thors, but you were not producing a single scv during that time. Then you got supply blocked again from 15:15-16:11. The worst part is that nothing in particular was happening at this time, it is inexcusable at high master level.
Of course you can't find any opportunity to push with poor macro in the midgame.
Side note, mech really is strongest when you are just taking expansions and doing close to max push out.
The reason it got close was totally at your end.
edit: sorry should had "qoute".
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United States4883 Posts
On June 30 2012 02:31 MrTwiggy wrote:
I've recently been playing with a mass marine/medivac style in TvT that goes for really fast upgrades and then blows up with 9 rax, 7 of which have reactors, takes a fast third, and then abuses high upgrades and mobility. (It's from a variation of FilterSC's build, saw it in a video)
However recently, I get in these situations where my enemy is going marine/tank, and he starts to push up on my base, and it doesn't seem like there's anything I can do. I can't rush him, because tanks/marines will just melt my army, and I can't hold him off, because he will just slowly siege up, doing the turtle hopping. So, my question is, what do I do? The only answer I can seem to think of is to load up some medivacs and drop his base with 3-4 medivacs of marines and hope for a base trade, but even then, that's hoping that he doesn't have sieged tanks/marines in his base.
In case it is pertinent, I am a high plat Terran. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Note: I heard that you can put 2-3 bunkers down and then just repair them, but I don't see how that can work, since he will just aim the tanks at the repairing SCVs, and then take out the bunkers.
Summary: How can you stop marine/tank pushes where they turtle hop tanks, without getting your own tanks/vikings? Or is that the only option, to just get tanks yourself?
I don't know this build exactly, but here's another idea. I've played a lot of TvTs where I've done wonky base trades, then come home and managed to sandwich his army with a full surround for the win. Here's what I propose:
When you see him moving out with tanks (you should have 1 or more watchtowers), you can meet him in the middle if you have a lot of marines. If you DONT have enough marines to engage, I suggest taking the long way around, doing a counter attack and putting up a couple of bunkers. The bunkers should buy you enough time to do critical damage in his economy. When things get too bad in your natural, evacuate SCVs and remaining marines into your main and retreat with your main army. A secondary supply depot wall will buy you a little more time. Now that his economy/production is crippled, all you have to do is kill off this marine/tank push. Using a scan or two, try to catch him unseiged and sandwich him. You should have a control group of all your SCVs + marines in your base and a control group of your main army (marines + medivacs). Should you spread out your units well and not walk through a bunch of chokes, the SCVs should be enough to absorb the tanks shots for your marines.
You can do this earlier if you don't believe you have enough time to hit his base and then come home to defend. But still, remember to keep everything spread out. The only real downside to this is that he will kill off a bunch of SCVs for no damage, meaning your counterswing has to be really powerful with multipronged drops etc.
Basically, all this relies on you a) knowing the push is coming and b) having at least half of your army outside of your main base. This will help you immensely. Remember that you can use the mobility of just marines/medivacs to get around faster than the slow tank-hopping. In addition, I would almost liken this marine/medivac composition to muta/ling...base trades should definitely be what you're aiming for when you go for a hyper-mobile, non-direct engagement army.
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Alright, thanks a bunch to the replies I got, I'll definitely have to take those things into consideration 
Here's another dilemma I've run into. In pretty much all my builds, I do 1 Rax FE and then put up a bunker + SD right after. Now, when I'm playing against protoss, sometimes they go for this really early pressure, whether it be a straight up 4-gate, or sometimes they will expand but then send like 4-6 stalkers to my base, and they will poke up the ramp, sometimes just straight out destroying the bunker before I can see it/react/repair it with SCV's. I realise that the answer to this is station some marines/SCV's at watch tower, look for a push, etc, but what about when he proxies a pylon and warps them in? I usually only have 5-8 marines, 4 of which are in my bunker, and without the bunker I pretty much lose because stalkers just wreck marines with relatively low-micro (just stutter step).
On top of that, even when I do see the pressure coming, they will often poke up the ramp, I'll have some SCV's ready to repair, and back off, then here's where it gets hard. I know they are probably still near my ramp, so what do I do? Do I leave 4-5 SCVs idle by the bunker ready to repair? Because then I'm wasting upwards of 200 minerals every single minute, but if I don't leave them there and they go back to mining, if he pushes up when I'm doing something else and I don't have 100% perfect awareness, he can often destroy the bunker before I react and get the SCV's over.
So, any tips/tricks/insight on what I can do to sort of squash this? Because usually if he can take out my bunker, I'm pretty much done. I often lose marines, SCV's, I need to retreat and lift my expo CC, and now I'm not mining for 3+ minutes, and a good protoss player will realise this and then just send in a ton of reinforcements with his 2 base economy and inevitably destroy me.
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On June 30 2012 10:34 MrTwiggy wrote:Alright, thanks a bunch to the replies I got, I'll definitely have to take those things into consideration Here's another dilemma I've run into. In pretty much all my builds, I do 1 Rax FE and then put up a bunker + SD right after. Now, when I'm playing against protoss, sometimes they go for this really early pressure, whether it be a straight up 4-gate, or sometimes they will expand but then send like 4-6 stalkers to my base, and they will poke up the ramp, sometimes just straight out destroying the bunker before I can see it/react/repair it with SCV's. I realise that the answer to this is station some marines/SCV's at watch tower, look for a push, etc, but what about when he proxies a pylon and warps them in? I usually only have 5-8 marines, 4 of which are in my bunker, and without the bunker I pretty much lose because stalkers just wreck marines with relatively low-micro (just stutter step). On top of that, even when I do see the pressure coming, they will often poke up the ramp, I'll have some SCV's ready to repair, and back off, then here's where it gets hard. I know they are probably still near my ramp, so what do I do? Do I leave 4-5 SCVs idle by the bunker ready to repair? Because then I'm wasting upwards of 200 minerals every single minute, but if I don't leave them there and they go back to mining, if he pushes up when I'm doing something else and I don't have 100% perfect awareness, he can often destroy the bunker before I react and get the SCV's over. So, any tips/tricks/insight on what I can do to sort of squash this? Because usually if he can take out my bunker, I'm pretty much done. I often lose marines, SCV's, I need to retreat and lift my expo CC, and now I'm not mining for 3+ minutes, and a good protoss player will realise this and then just send in a ton of reinforcements with his 2 base economy and inevitably destroy me.
A replay would help a lot. But anyway~
If he's on one base or otherwise behind in economy, it's OK to keep four or five SCV's at your bunker in case he pushes up the ramp and your bunker is far away. Actually, if you're having a tough time holding, it's OK to just always do that until Stim finishes and you can hold without pulling SCV's to repair, and just eventually learning when it's okay to leave SCV's there and when it's okay to pull them back to mine.
If he pokes and immediately kills your bunker, consider pulling back your bunker closer to your CC so you can repair it more easily, or comparing the replays of someone who does this strategy and someone who doesn't and looking for tells as to the build that the Protoss goes for. Alternatively, you can delay gas/SCVs/Marines to build a second bunker early on.
If he's going for heavy gateway pressure, build more bunkers and perhaps build your depots in a wall to prevent Zealots from getting a surround on your bunkers. Make sure that the depots are not in front of the bunkers, though.
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On June 30 2012 02:31 MrTwiggy wrote:
I've recently been playing with a mass marine/medivac style in TvT that goes for really fast upgrades and then blows up with 9 rax, 7 of which have reactors, takes a fast third, and then abuses high upgrades and mobility. (It's from a variation of FilterSC's build, saw it in a video)
However recently, I get in these situations where my enemy is going marine/tank, and he starts to push up on my base, and it doesn't seem like there's anything I can do. I can't rush him, because tanks/marines will just melt my army, and I can't hold him off, because he will just slowly siege up, doing the turtle hopping. So, my question is, what do I do? The only answer I can seem to think of is to load up some medivacs and drop his base with 3-4 medivacs of marines and hope for a base trade, but even then, that's hoping that he doesn't have sieged tanks/marines in his base.
In case it is pertinent, I am a high plat Terran. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Note: I heard that you can put 2-3 bunkers down and then just repair them, but I don't see how that can work, since he will just aim the tanks at the repairing SCVs, and then take out the bunkers.
Summary: How can you stop marine/tank pushes where they turtle hop tanks, without getting your own tanks/vikings? Or is that the only option, to just get tanks yourself?
Your problem is that he's pushing up on your base. Playing MMM against any kind of Tank style requires you to be outside his base, and force him to siege up early, so you can catch him unsieged, or force him to slowly hop across the map.
I'll usually have most of my army outside his base, put a small section in a distant corner, and then another section in a drop ship to force him back or stop reinforcements. Once he pushes out, you slowly retreat, but force him to siege hop, and then you flank him with the side force when you're in an open position that you can get a surround in, or you constantly scan and catch him unsieged. Be sure to drop at the same time.
Additionally, a very large drop may force either an unsiege and retreat, or an unsiege and all-in, so you really have to abuse that mobility. Engage in the most open places possible, on some maps, like Daybreak, this is nearly impossible, but in other maps it is quite easy actually.
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Hi Fellow Terrans
In TvZ I frequently die to roach-bane-ling attacks off of a two base zerg. I'm in gold and they usually hit around 8-10 minutes.
Simple Question:Is there a typical time for zerg to take a third (or not take a third!) that should be setting off alarm bells in my head? Or are there other simple ways to scout these sorts of attacks?
I know there's been a lot of whining in this thread about the TvZ match up, but I'm a gold league player so I don't want to hear about that.
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On June 30 2012 14:22 Efficient wrote:
Hi Fellow Terrans
In TvZ I frequently die to roach-bane-ling attacks off of a two base zerg. I'm in gold and they usually hit around 8-10 minutes.
Simple Question:Is there a typical time for zerg to take a third (or not take a third!) that should be setting off alarm bells in my head? Or are there other simple ways to scout these sorts of attacks?
I know there's been a lot of whining in this thread about the TvZ match up, but I'm a gold league player so I don't want to hear about that.
A 3rd can really range. First ÿõû need to check if it's gonna be a no gas or gas opener. I've noticed that with no gas, I've seem 3rds (high diamond and low master) as early as 6-7~ minutes.
As for scouting, don't be afraid to scan. Or get hellions. I like to do hellion harass and keep map control, usually with 6-8 hellions. But that can take a lot of multitasking and you can lose them pretty easily without micro
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How do you counter a mass-DT (like 40 DTs), archon, Collosus comp? I had 3-3 upgraded bio and I was shredded when he made a transition from HTs to DTs.
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On June 30 2012 14:32 Packawana wrote:
How do you counter a mass-DT (like 40 DTs), archon, Collosus comp? I had 3-3 upgraded bio and I was shredded when he made a transition from HTs to DTs.
... Were you having a seizure or something? You don't let him get to that point. That's how you stop it.
Realistically you want lots of ghosts with emp with usual army comp.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 30 2012 14:32 Packawana wrote:
How do you counter a mass-DT (like 40 DTs), archon, Collosus comp? I had 3-3 upgraded bio and I was shredded when he made a transition from HTs to DTs.
That seems rather impossible, but if you really want to know the secret: Just kite like you would do with zealots. DTs work like zealots who can't charge and have less HP, and EMPing them literally makes them useless. If you're kiting correctly, you shouldn't have to worry about colossus/archon damage.
Also, if you're at a point like that in the game, I feel like you should have equal or more bases than the protoss (sounds like 4+). If you have that many bases, you should have some extra orbitals and plenty of scans. If you're not, and you were playing 3-base versus 4+ bases, THAT'S your problem, not dealing with the composition.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 30 2012 14:22 Efficient wrote:
Hi Fellow Terrans
In TvZ I frequently die to roach-bane-ling attacks off of a two base zerg. I'm in gold and they usually hit around 8-10 minutes.
Simple Question:Is there a typical time for zerg to take a third (or not take a third!) that should be setting off alarm bells in my head? Or are there other simple ways to scout these sorts of attacks?
I know there's been a lot of whining in this thread about the TvZ match up, but I'm a gold league player so I don't want to hear about that.
I'm going to say exactly the opposite of what the guy before me said:
Zergs who don't take an early gas after expand (after 4:00) will generally take a 3rd around 6:30-7:30. If you see gas early (before 4:00), just know that the soonest a baneling bust can hit you is 3 minutes after the gas has gone down, and about 4 minutes for the roach/bane. Generally this timing is 7:30 for the baneling bust and 8:30 for the roach/bane bust, perhaps a little later for gold.
DONT SCAN. There's no reason to scan early in this matchup and you need every single MULE you can get. If you're ever unable to scout or forget to, just add and extra bunker and play defensively until your established timing attack (maybe grab a few marauders if you can). The only scans I think are necessary are at 9:30-10:30 to see lair tech and 15:00-16:00 to see hive tech. Seriously though, FORCE yourself to not scan, and just find a way to "be prepared". This is what separates players in lower leagues with players in higher leagues.
You can also try to hold the watchtower early on with your 3-4 initial marines. If you see a substantial amount of zerglings around the bust times, you know what to expect and how to prepare.
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EPT
