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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On June 23 2012 12:28 Chaggi wrote: what time does a hellion/marauder all-in hit in TvZ? gonna just start cheesing every zerg I meet http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=310757 Guide to Marauder/Hellion all-in. | ||
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fabioisonfire
United States81 Posts
My question is, should I be learning to play the race organically (as you'd play Zerg, for instance) or should I just get 1 build for each matchup down pat before doing anything else? Thanks. | ||
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Adrenalinz
30 Posts
I've decided to forget everything I knew about TvZ and relearn it. Where would be a good place to start with that, especially with the new balance changes? A lot of the old builds and playstyles aren't cutting it for me. Also, would anyone kindly point me to a tried and tested TvZ build in the current patch? I'm capable of playing bio, biomech, or mech. I just want to avoid all-ins. Thank you very much in advance. I'll be reading this thread for any TvZ guidance. | ||
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Wardi
England895 Posts
On June 23 2012 17:31 Adrenalinz wrote: Diamond Terran here. I've decided to forget everything I knew about TvZ and relearn it. Where would be a good place to start with that, especially with the new balance changes? A lot of the old builds and playstyles aren't cutting it for me. Also, would anyone kindly point me to a tried and tested TvZ build in the current patch? I'm capable of playing bio, biomech, or mech. I just want to avoid all-ins. Thank you very much in advance. I'll be reading this thread for any TvZ guidance. 1 rax FE into double gas reactor hellions starport after factory at 5:20 Switch Factory onto Reactor and make 2 hellions, then a tech lab on rax 5:36 swap starport onto Tech lab and start cloak + banshee 6:26 Go up to 8 hellions Tech Lab on Rax 7:00 3rd at 7:20 marauder production and stim 7:48 Double EB 8:10 2 more Rax, one on reactor of factory 8:30 Tech Lab on Factory 8:50 +1+1 9:20 Double Gas at natural 9:30 Reactor on Starport 10:00 4th and 5th Rax + Armoury 10:50 Medivacs and Siege Tank production 11:10 Give map control, early pressure can be applied with the hellions and banshees. You can also get a raven to help clear creep if you keep the banshees alive. You can transition into marine tank or full mech, whichever you feel is better suited to your playstyle. Just remember to test their multi tasking as the game goes on; drop their expansions, take control of the middle and so on. | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On June 23 2012 18:11 Wardi wrote: 1 rax FE into double gas reactor hellions starport after factory at 5:20 Switch Factory onto Reactor and make 2 hellions, then a tech lab on rax 5:36 swap starport onto Tech lab and start cloak + banshee 6:26 Go up to 8 hellions Tech Lab on Rax 7:00 3rd at 7:20 marauder production and stim 7:48 Double EB 8:10 2 more Rax, one on reactor of factory 8:30 Tech Lab on Factory 8:50 +1+1 9:20 Double Gas at natural 9:30 Reactor on Starport 10:00 4th and 5th Rax + Armoury 10:50 Medivacs and Siege Tank production 11:10 Give map control, early pressure can be applied with the hellions and banshees. You can also get a raven to help clear creep if you keep the banshees alive. You can transition into marine tank or full mech, whichever you feel is better suited to your playstyle. Just remember to test their multi tasking as the game goes on; drop their expansions, take control of the middle and so on. how would you scout+when would you scout for semi allins like the roach bane busts, and how do you modify this build to counteract those/hold them off such as I know that roach bane hits around 7 minutes, does this really have enough to hold that one off? /etc I guess at least it isn't the 5:00 type 3rd CC, but do you really have enough to hold those allins off...etc idk | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
I need to attack before they have many colossi/HT...what is the timing for this? I just played a tvp and I was so close to winning, and I did win, but almost lost to his a move archons and spamming storm, so I thought it would be good to attack them before storm/colossi finish. Thank you | ||
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stichtom
Italy695 Posts
Should i start making marauder from the start of the game? What do u do when u see ultra? | ||
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iTzSnypah
United States1738 Posts
On June 23 2012 19:59 stichtom wrote: I'm finding a lot of problem in late game vs mass ultra + infestor because i can't have enough marauder in time. Should i start making marauder from the start of the game? What do u do when u see ultra? At around 14minutes I start adding on tech-lab barracks and 2 reactor starports. This is about the time I max and about the time Zerg gets hive. What you should do is watch ~5 of your TvZ and note down when the Zerg's lair and hive is complete then average the lair timing and the hive timing. Then using that information you would then know when to scan and then you can adjust your composition then. | ||
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Wardi
England895 Posts
On June 23 2012 18:48 zhurai wrote: how would you scout+when would you scout for semi allins like the roach bane busts, and how do you modify this build to counteract those/hold them off such as I know that roach bane hits around 7 minutes, does this really have enough to hold that one off? /etc I guess at least it isn't the 5:00 type 3rd CC, but do you really have enough to hold those allins off...etc idk Hellions allow for great scouting of roaches coming out so you can put up extra bunkers. The heavy hellion count means you should be able to poke at lings and pick off a lot of banelings. Banshees also help with this and this is actually a really strong build in terms of holding this all in. You scout it just as you would in other builds - just by poking and seeing roaches/units with hellions. | ||
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Kamelixs
Sweden88 Posts
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Wardi
England895 Posts
On June 23 2012 19:57 dynwar7 wrote: What is the timing when protoss compeltes storm research or thermal lance? I need to attack before they have many colossi/HT...what is the timing for this? I just played a tvp and I was so close to winning, and I did win, but almost lost to his a move archons and spamming storm, so I thought it would be good to attack them before storm/colossi finish. Thank you This completely depends on your opponents build. If they go for a 4 gate follow up for example, their tech will be delayed. Faster forges can mean later collossus and also chrono boost adds a lot of variety to the timings. You should look to first push with 2 medivacs (if you are doing a stim timing) and then reinforce with the 3rd and 4th. This should allow you to get to his base and see what he has through drops and poking the front. Test his multi tasking by dropping the main. As the finishing time of Storm/Extend Thermal Lance is hard to define you just have to play enough games and learn good judgement of "I can engage at the front" or "I should try and drop and pull him apart". You should be able to do some eco damage with the drops and also deny his third base for a while. From here you should be in a good position going into the macro game. If you were talking about when Storm AND Collossi are out it once again depends on the builds and how much damage you did in the mid game. If you can deny the third for a long time, do a bit of eco damage, trade armies in the mid game you will delay his deathball and additional tech. Incase you do not win the game with this push before this timing here are a couple good timings: if he opens collossi taking your ghost academy as you establish a third base is generally a good timing. If he opens storm then you should get ghost academy slightly earlier and then just keep up good scouting via scans to see when he starts adding collossi. Make sure to have a second reactored sport up and you will be able to switch to vikings in time. | ||
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Kull of Atlantis
Turkey98 Posts
I am having trouble figuring out which type of 1-1-1 opening is happening in TvT match up. when I scan and see Barracks Factory and guessing a hidden Starport, I really can't say what is coming. I am mostly preparing against marine tank viking pushes but then cloacked banshees are reigning terror in my base. Is it possible to tell after one scan? What kind of signs do I have to look for? What kind of opening do you suggest? Thanks, Kull | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On June 23 2012 19:59 stichtom wrote: I'm finding a lot of problem in late game vs mass ultra + infestor because i can't have enough marauder in time. Should i start making marauder from the start of the game? What do u do when u see ultra? I answered this question a little further up. Essentially, the best solution is to switch from tanks to thors around the time the zerg gets hive up (generally 16:00). You should already have a marine-heavy mix of MMM. As long as you pre-split and focus down the ultras with the thors, you should be in good shape (exception is neural parasite...that can be solved with a little extra APM spent on micro). | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On June 24 2012 01:32 Kull of Atlantis wrote: Hello strategists, I am having trouble figuring out which type of 1-1-1 opening is happening in TvT match up. when I scan and see Barracks Factory and guessing a hidden Starport, I really can't say what is coming. I am mostly preparing against marine tank viking pushes but then cloacked banshees are reigning terror in my base. Is it possible to tell after one scan? What kind of signs do I have to look for? What kind of opening do you suggest? Thanks, Kull 1) REALLY try not to scan in TvT before 8:00. So many players scan without reason in TvT and it's just BAD unless you have a really good reason. I understand you need to spend one if you see no expansion and can't get a unit count when someone is doing a 1-1-1 though. Basically, if you have SOME marines with combat shield and at least 1 tank, you should be able to hold off any 1-1-1 (I guess, assuming you 1rax expand, which you should). 1 tank completely shuts down any build shaped around drops and speed reapers/hellions/marines. Always have an ebay down by 6:00 to deal with banshees. You should be able to buy enough time with CS marines and scans to put up a handful of turrets...3 max. The tank pushes can be dealt with by simply scouting it before it gets to your base. Once the tanks seige up in front of your base, it's over. Therefore, just meet the army in the middle and pick off the tanks. If you somehow don't have the firepower to win the entire battle, you still shut down the initial push and buy enough time to get your own tanks out, etc. All of this can be handled reactively WHEN it starts to come towards you. In my opinion, you don't need a scan, you just need to be ready for a drop/banshees in the back of your base or a moveout in front of your opponent's base. If you feel confident spending a scan on his base, you should be able to get a better idea of what he's doing and hard counter it, which will lead to a harder counterswing on your part. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On June 24 2012 01:01 Kamelixs wrote: How do you deal with roach drops the best way when playing mech? Both doom drops and smaller harrasment seems to kill me easily when I play against players knowing how to abuse the immobility. Missile turrets and sensor towers, kind of the obvious answer. Re-rally your factories into main, pull half of your army to defend. The rest of your army should bump between your natural and 3rd. When you get vikings up, use them to patrol drop paths. Assuming you don't move out until about 170/200 on 3 bases, you should be fine. | ||
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CaptainCharisma
New Zealand808 Posts
I'm looking for a benchmark that I shoot for playing against AI. For example: Your medivacs should pop at 9.30 At that time +1 should be 20 seconds from completion. 45 SCVs 23 marines 4 marauders. Total supply 80. That was just off the top of my head. I'm looking for a precise benchmark, possibly from a GM or high master who has the build perfected and can check the replay to see EXACTLY when the Medivacs pop and what the unit mix is. If you could add a build order as well that would be tops, but I think I have the general build down that I could try to optimize if I have a benchmark to aim for, so it isn't absolutely necessary. But it would speed up my practice if I'm doing something wrong! This seems like a lot, but really all I'm asking is for a GM or close-to to check a replay where there was no early game shenanigans and they do the +1, 2 medivac push and tell me exactly what they had. Cheers! | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On June 23 2012 18:48 zhurai wrote: how would you scout+when would you scout for semi allins like the roach bane busts, and how do you modify this build to counteract those/hold them off such as I know that roach bane hits around 7 minutes, does this really have enough to hold that one off? /etc I guess at least it isn't the 5:00 type 3rd CC, but do you really have enough to hold those allins off...etc idk Roach bane doesn't hit at 7 minutes. That's insanely early. That's, at best, a late econ bust ling bling. Roach bane hits after in the middle between 9 and 10 minutes. | ||
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Arkani
Austria60 Posts
i would like heavy agression builds (learning to controll units better) or macro oriented builds, any recommendations? im not really an all in/cheeser tvp standard 1rax expo into 3rax medivacs + ups is my go-to thing atm, but would like other options too tvz some bansheeplay or something? helion expand seems pretty bad since queen buff. is there a macro hellion marauder (+banshee) bo out there to lern from? or other ideas tvt mech bo? never really played mech seriously, dont really like the slow style (yet) but i would like to give it a shot if someone has a nice bo thanks in advance to my fellow terrans  | ||
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SFGIANTS91
United States51 Posts
On June 24 2012 02:58 CaptainCharisma wrote: What is a good unit benchmark to aim for in the standard TvP 1 rax FE into 3 rax, push with 2 medivacs and +1? I'm looking for a benchmark that I shoot for playing against AI. For example: Your medivacs should pop at 9.30 At that time +1 should be 20 seconds from completion. 45 SCVs 23 marines 4 marauders. Total supply 80. That was just off the top of my head. I'm looking for a precise benchmark, possibly from a GM or high master who has the build perfected and can check the replay to see EXACTLY when the Medivacs pop and what the unit mix is. If you could add a build order as well that would be tops, but I think I have the general build down that I could try to optimize if I have a benchmark to aim for, so it isn't absolutely necessary. But it would speed up my practice if I'm doing something wrong! This seems like a lot, but really all I'm asking is for a GM or close-to to check a replay where there was no early game shenanigans and they do the +1, 2 medivac push and tell me exactly what they had. Cheers! if you watch many pros in a tvp that are uninterupted the supply at 10 minutes should be 100. this supply includes the 2 medis, so your medis should pop at 10 minutes or a bit earlier and your supply should be at 100 or higher. aim for 50 scvs, which is hard to do but if you hit it you know you are not cutting scvs even for a second. imo it doesnt really matter what they HAD in terms of marines and marauders, but you had it about right you want to move out with mainly marines and a few marauders, add on your extra 2 rax and 3rd CC etc. day 9 did that daily on bombers 3 rax tvp and it opened my eyes, its amazing theres also a guide on it on TL somewhere . good luck | ||
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