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United States4883 Posts
On June 19 2012 15:49 Worker Drop wrote:
Thanks for the answer, i will try Reaper expand, but if in some case im playing against nexus first with rax fe Bomber Style, there is something i can do to punish them? What would be the best timing to do the atack? We know that parting love that style, and always goes heavy gateway ( Like 6 or more) then he gets templar. When should i atack? Asap? Or wait for min 6 or 7 etc? Ty.
Mvp will generally just do a bunker push with the first marines, doing a bunker wall-off. If you bring 3-5 SCVs with your initial 2-3 marines, you should be able to cause maximum damage while getting your own expo down. I honestly think that you should never pull all SCVs against toss.
Another common strategy is transitioning into reactor hellion and proceeding to own his mineral line with a ton of hellions. If you do enough damage, I would even suggest going all in with SCVs/marauders/hellions.
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TvP ten minute timing push, but wait for 4 medivacs. You can do the 4 medivac thing quite easily with the perfectly standard 1 rax fe into 2 gas into upgrades (the difference between the Bomber build and the standard one is literally a few units). It means your push hits around 11:30 rather than 11 (takes 30s for medivacs to cross the map) but it means you push the main and drop the natural at the same time.
It also means you hit around the time your +1 hits. Don't think I've lost a TvP in the last 5 days.
If they go Nexus first just push with your first 8 marines and a pair of SCVs. Prioritise probes then sentries. If you can get a bunker up, that's fine. If not just use them to tank the first few hits off the zealots. You're not really trying to kill them, just punish that early expand and shut it down for the few minutes it takes to get your push ready. However even if they do go Nexus first they aren't going to be powerful enough to hold off your mid game timing push.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 18 2012 14:03 dynwar7 wrote:
Someone please help me in TvT. I am totally lost here. I love going 1Rax FE, but need to be able to hold off any early aggression. I was thinking of going standard 1 rax fe, then getting fast raven and viking for enemy banshees. While doing this, maybe its good to hellion drop?
Again, while doing all this, when do I research siege tanks? TvT is so confusing -.-
I've found the best solution in TvT is simply making a lot of marines. Marines counter marines, unseiged tanks, hellions (if spread correctly), banshees, and drops. Thorzain has a build that gets a really early combat shield (like 5:30)...pretty much kills ANY pressure your opponent can put on you.
If you open against cloaked banshees, I suggest you get 1 raven (to be aggressive while moving across the map) but leave the defense to just pure marine with a few missile turrets.
Seige tanks, in TvT, can be added before or after medivacs depending on if you're planning to do big ground pushes early or early drops. I generally have seige tech on the way right after combat shield finishes and stim is starting.
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On June 19 2012 16:21 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 14:03 dynwar7 wrote:
Someone please help me in TvT. I am totally lost here. I love going 1Rax FE, but need to be able to hold off any early aggression. I was thinking of going standard 1 rax fe, then getting fast raven and viking for enemy banshees. While doing this, maybe its good to hellion drop?
Again, while doing all this, when do I research siege tanks? TvT is so confusing -.- I've found the best solution in TvT is simply making a lot of marines. Marines counter marines, unseiged tanks, hellions (if spread correctly), banshees, and drops. Thorzain has a build that gets a really early combat shield (like 5:30)...pretty much kills ANY pressure your opponent can put on you. If you open against cloaked banshees, I suggest you get 1 raven (to be aggressive while moving across the map) but leave the defense to just pure marine with a few missile turrets. Seige tanks, in TvT, can be added before or after medivacs depending on if you're planning to do big ground pushes early or early drops. I generally have seige tech on the way right after combat shield finishes and stim is starting.
I don't know, I stopped going FE builds in TvT just because I ALWAYS die to competent tank pushes (Mid-high master here).
The build I die to is the 1 reactored rax, 1 factory, 1 starport build that pumps out ~10-12 marines, 1 siege tank (with siege and a few scvs on auto-repair), 1 medivac ARRIVING at your natural at around 6:20 - 6:40 depending on map distance, with 2 marines/1 tank/1 medivac reinforcements.
Going off of a 1 rax FE, 4 rax non-stop marine pump is the minimum marine production just not to die to the A-move. However, against good opponents, they will simply siege up and wait for the second tank to leapfrog, while using the medivac to drop/snipe scvs at every opportunity.
When I do pull scvs and trade with the push, at most I end up being even economically with my opponent since 80% of the time my opponent builds 2 more CC to catch up or get ahead economically with a tech advantage after his push.
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15nexus is just as safe as 1gate expands tbh.
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On June 19 2012 16:57 EngrishTeacher wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 16:21 SC2John wrote:On June 18 2012 14:03 dynwar7 wrote:
Someone please help me in TvT. I am totally lost here. I love going 1Rax FE, but need to be able to hold off any early aggression. I was thinking of going standard 1 rax fe, then getting fast raven and viking for enemy banshees. While doing this, maybe its good to hellion drop?
Again, while doing all this, when do I research siege tanks? TvT is so confusing -.- I've found the best solution in TvT is simply making a lot of marines. Marines counter marines, unseiged tanks, hellions (if spread correctly), banshees, and drops. Thorzain has a build that gets a really early combat shield (like 5:30)...pretty much kills ANY pressure your opponent can put on you. If you open against cloaked banshees, I suggest you get 1 raven (to be aggressive while moving across the map) but leave the defense to just pure marine with a few missile turrets. Seige tanks, in TvT, can be added before or after medivacs depending on if you're planning to do big ground pushes early or early drops. I generally have seige tech on the way right after combat shield finishes and stim is starting. I don't know, I stopped going FE builds in TvT just because I ALWAYS die to competent tank pushes (Mid-high master here). The build I die to is the 1 reactored rax, 1 factory, 1 starport build that pumps out ~10-12 marines, 1 siege tank (with siege and a few scvs on auto-repair), 1 medivac ARRIVING at your natural at around 6:20 - 6:40 depending on map distance, with 2 marines/1 tank/1 medivac reinforcements. Going off of a 1 rax FE, 4 rax non-stop marine pump is the minimum marine production just not to die to the A-move. However, against good opponents, they will simply siege up and wait for the second tank to leapfrog, while using the medivac to drop/snipe scvs at every opportunity. When I do pull scvs and trade with the push, at most I end up being even economically with my opponent since 80% of the time my opponent builds 2 more CC to catch up or get ahead economically with a tech advantage after his push. SHHHHHHHHHH! I need those free wins to make up for all my losses against Zerg! NOTHING TO SEE HERE. ALL OF YOU ARE JUST AS GOOD AS THORZAIN! CONTINUE TO 1 RAX FE EVERY TvT!
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I 1rax FE every TvT basically (top master) and have not once lost to a 1base all-in since forever.
The way you do it is CC before 2nd depot, 2gas before 2nd depot, rush to 1-1-1 with reactor on rax, techlab on fac and naked starport (and a quick bunker at your nat to survive potential early marine/scv pressures).
Even on the closest spawns possible you will have siegetech in time to defend against siegepushes. You will have a tank in time to defend hellion/marine or reaper/hellion pushes. You will have a viking + marines (+ ebay) in time for banshees. Literally with zero scouting you can hold anything, and just imagine if you do scout and see what's coming.
However, I myself do some 1base all-ins from time to time because the majority of people who go 1rax FE are too greedy and won't have the proper defences. Especially bio players.
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I've been thinking about trying the 2banshee/raven opener to deny creep spread in early TvZ.
Anyone know where I could get a replay where the terran executes this in a way that is effective?
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How do you not die to storm? I can be ahead by 50 supply and storms still decimate my army. I've been going bomber style lately, which favors a longer midgame composition (later ghosts), but even when I have a huge army if the opponent has a relatively tiny army with 6 storms in the bank I just die. I split my army into smaller chunks and he just storms those smaller chunks. Am I supposed to split to the point where my army is fighting in groups of 4 and no more? What's a terran supposed to do?
It gets even more problematic when I reach the endgame. I do okay even if the toss has hts split up pre-emptively (and even better if they don't). But my big problem is when the toss attacks with his main force and keeps his templar behind the army, only bringing them forward and storming ~10 seconds after the deathballs clash. By then most of my ghosts are already dead, and the rest have already used their emp on the archons and other army.
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On June 19 2012 23:21 Starshaped wrote:
I 1rax FE every TvT basically (top master) and have not once lost to a 1base all-in since forever.
The way you do it is CC before 2nd depot, 2gas before 2nd depot, rush to 1-1-1 with reactor on rax, techlab on fac and naked starport (and a quick bunker at your nat to survive potential early marine/scv pressures).
Even on the closest spawns possible you will have siegetech in time to defend against siegepushes. You will have a tank in time to defend hellion/marine or reaper/hellion pushes. You will have a viking + marines (+ ebay) in time for banshees. Literally with zero scouting you can hold anything, and just imagine if you do scout and see what's coming.
However, I myself do some 1base all-ins from time to time because the majority of people who go 1rax FE are too greedy and won't have the proper defences. Especially bio players.
But with that build you won't be able to do the same things you would if you went for 3 rax + bio upgrades. I'm not saying one is better then the other, yours is certainly better at defending tank pushes, but it doesn't only have pros compared to other follow-ups.
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On June 20 2012 02:14 Bwall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 23:21 Starshaped wrote:
I 1rax FE every TvT basically (top master) and have not once lost to a 1base all-in since forever.
The way you do it is CC before 2nd depot, 2gas before 2nd depot, rush to 1-1-1 with reactor on rax, techlab on fac and naked starport (and a quick bunker at your nat to survive potential early marine/scv pressures).
Even on the closest spawns possible you will have siegetech in time to defend against siegepushes. You will have a tank in time to defend hellion/marine or reaper/hellion pushes. You will have a viking + marines (+ ebay) in time for banshees. Literally with zero scouting you can hold anything, and just imagine if you do scout and see what's coming.
However, I myself do some 1base all-ins from time to time because the majority of people who go 1rax FE are too greedy and won't have the proper defences. Especially bio players. But with that build you won't be able to do the same things you would if you went for 3 rax + bio upgrades. I'm not saying one is better then the other, yours is certainly better at defending tank pushes, but it doesn't only have pros compared to other follow-ups.
The way I see it, if my opponent is on 1base and I have an expansion, all I need to do is defend and I'm away ahead.
I only do what I described if I scout that my opponent isn't going FE, otherwise you can, as you say, play more towards the lategame. But since it's expo vs no expo I just need to defend and I've basically won.
That being said, it can actually be nice to do this (1-1-1 after expo) against an opponent who went FE too. A tank/marine/viking timing can punish a lot of greedy players.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On June 20 2012 02:12 halpimcat wrote:
How do you not die to storm? I can be ahead by 50 supply and storms still decimate my army. I've been going bomber style lately, which favors a longer midgame composition (later ghosts), but even when I have a huge army if the opponent has a relatively tiny army with 6 storms in the bank I just die. I split my army into smaller chunks and he just storms those smaller chunks. Am I supposed to split to the point where my army is fighting in groups of 4 and no more? What's a terran supposed to do?
If your style relies on delayed ghosts, you'll naturally be more vulnerable against protoss casters.. i recommend you either get earlier ghosts or don't directly engage (pre-set-up a concave but dont attack into his bases) once he has HTs in any decent number.
On June 20 2012 02:12 halpimcat wrote:
It gets even more problematic when I reach the endgame. I do okay even if the toss has hts split up pre-emptively (and even better if they don't). But my big problem is when the toss attacks with his main force and keeps his templar behind the army, only bringing them forward and storming ~10 seconds after the deathballs clash. By then most of my ghosts are already dead, and the rest have already used their emp on the archons and other army.
If he's hiding like 16 food of HTs in the back, then his deathball is that much weaker-- so you should hide 16 food of ghosts in the back as well, or maybe try to cloak a couple and flank, or just save your EMPs. If he can engage you then get off perfect storms, yes, he'll win, but you can't blame a protoss for trying to do the same sort of split micro you try to do-- ghost cloak or preserving ghosts is your best option.
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On June 20 2012 02:33 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 02:14 Bwall wrote:On June 19 2012 23:21 Starshaped wrote:
I 1rax FE every TvT basically (top master) and have not once lost to a 1base all-in since forever.
The way you do it is CC before 2nd depot, 2gas before 2nd depot, rush to 1-1-1 with reactor on rax, techlab on fac and naked starport (and a quick bunker at your nat to survive potential early marine/scv pressures).
Even on the closest spawns possible you will have siegetech in time to defend against siegepushes. You will have a tank in time to defend hellion/marine or reaper/hellion pushes. You will have a viking + marines (+ ebay) in time for banshees. Literally with zero scouting you can hold anything, and just imagine if you do scout and see what's coming.
However, I myself do some 1base all-ins from time to time because the majority of people who go 1rax FE are too greedy and won't have the proper defences. Especially bio players. But with that build you won't be able to do the same things you would if you went for 3 rax + bio upgrades. I'm not saying one is better then the other, yours is certainly better at defending tank pushes, but it doesn't only have pros compared to other follow-ups. The way I see it, if my opponent is on 1base and I have an expansion, all I need to do is defend and I'm away ahead. I only do what I described if I scout that my opponent isn't going FE, otherwise you can, as you say, play more towards the lategame. But since it's expo vs no expo I just need to defend and I've basically won. That being said, it can actually be nice to do this (1-1-1 after expo) against an opponent who went FE too. A tank/marine/viking timing can punish a lot of greedy players.
Yeah ok, I thought you suggested doing the build blindly every game.
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On June 19 2012 11:34 HeroMystic wrote:
How do you take on a 3-base Hive Rush?
Anyone mind answering this?
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United States4883 Posts
On June 19 2012 23:21 Starshaped wrote:
I 1rax FE every TvT basically (top master) and have not once lost to a 1base all-in since forever.
The way you do it is CC before 2nd depot, 2gas before 2nd depot, rush to 1-1-1 with reactor on rax, techlab on fac and naked starport (and a quick bunker at your nat to survive potential early marine/scv pressures).
Even on the closest spawns possible you will have siegetech in time to defend against siegepushes. You will have a tank in time to defend hellion/marine or reaper/hellion pushes. You will have a viking + marines (+ ebay) in time for banshees. Literally with zero scouting you can hold anything, and just imagine if you do scout and see what's coming.
However, I myself do some 1base all-ins from time to time because the majority of people who go 1rax FE are too greedy and won't have the proper defences. Especially bio players.
That's an interesting solution, I'll have to try it. I've never worried because I can get out an insane amount of marines with combat shield early and just control the middle of the map. Worst case scenario, I have to pull half my SCVs and do a sandwich, but I always come out way on top of those engagements. I just don't like turtling and relying on tanks to save me  .
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On June 20 2012 02:50 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 11:34 HeroMystic wrote:
How do you take on a 3-base Hive Rush? Anyone mind answering this?
Depends what he cuts to rush hive. If he's cutting lair tech units and banelings you can probably take him with an all-in off 2 base. If he cuts economy, you should just play as normal and try to counter his hive tech as best you can-- he won't have many units. There's a reason hive rarely appears earlier than 15.
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United Kingdom12071 Posts
When is the optimal time/supply to CC first against Toss? I've been doing it on ladder recently and constantly building SCVs until I naturally have enough money, should I be stopping around 14 like in BW?
Suprisingly enough, CC first is really easy to hold off mostly everything if you get a lot of bunkers and a lot of toss don't expect it that I've found. I don't do it in any other matchup, just TvP and it's working quite well for me, just wondering if there's anyway I can get it out a bit more optimally.
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On June 19 2012 23:21 Starshaped wrote:
I 1rax FE every TvT basically (top master) and have not once lost to a 1base all-in since forever.
The way you do it is CC before 2nd depot, 2gas before 2nd depot, rush to 1-1-1 with reactor on rax, techlab on fac and naked starport (and a quick bunker at your nat to survive potential early marine/scv pressures).
Even on the closest spawns possible you will have siegetech in time to defend against siegepushes. You will have a tank in time to defend hellion/marine or reaper/hellion pushes. You will have a viking + marines (+ ebay) in time for banshees. Literally with zero scouting you can hold anything, and just imagine if you do scout and see what's coming.
However, I myself do some 1base all-ins from time to time because the majority of people who go 1rax FE are too greedy and won't have the proper defences. Especially bio players.
Haha, that is the only FE build I have ever faced that has ever not had to lift off and ended up behind. I only saw it once and I killed a lot of SCVs repairing the bunker as I expanded myself so we were even and I ended up winning because I was just better. But when I scout no gas, I proxy a second barracks for vision so all my gas goes to tanks and you can't stop it by sniping a medivac. The best bio players will have 11 naked marines or less with a bunker vs my 11 marines and 2 tanks. I am not Thorzain and I can't win that fight so I don't try. I play safe and hope my opponent chooses to do the same or I take my boring free win and then resume giving free wins to Zerg.
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On June 20 2012 02:58 Qikz wrote:
When is the optimal time/supply to CC first against Toss? I've been doing it on ladder recently and constantly building SCVs until I naturally have enough money, should I be stopping around 14 like in BW?
Suprisingly enough, CC first is really easy to hold off mostly everything if you get a lot of bunkers and a lot of toss don't expect it that I've found. I don't do it in any other matchup, just TvP and it's working quite well for me, just wondering if there's anyway I can get it out a bit more optimally.
15cc is standard, but I think 14cc is good for some reason, the way MKP does it. Personally, I always do it on 15.
But yeah, 'naturally' it is 15cc, as in constant SCV production until 400 excess minerals.
Funny how you only do it in TvP when it's a lot more common/good in TvZ and TvT :D
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On June 20 2012 02:58 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 23:21 Starshaped wrote:
I 1rax FE every TvT basically (top master) and have not once lost to a 1base all-in since forever.
The way you do it is CC before 2nd depot, 2gas before 2nd depot, rush to 1-1-1 with reactor on rax, techlab on fac and naked starport (and a quick bunker at your nat to survive potential early marine/scv pressures).
Even on the closest spawns possible you will have siegetech in time to defend against siegepushes. You will have a tank in time to defend hellion/marine or reaper/hellion pushes. You will have a viking + marines (+ ebay) in time for banshees. Literally with zero scouting you can hold anything, and just imagine if you do scout and see what's coming.
However, I myself do some 1base all-ins from time to time because the majority of people who go 1rax FE are too greedy and won't have the proper defences. Especially bio players. Haha, that is the only FE build I have ever faced that has ever not had to lift off and ended up behind. I only saw it once and I killed a lot of SCVs repairing the bunker as I expanded myself so we were even and I ended up winning because I was just better. But when I scout no gas, I proxy a second barracks for vision so all my gas goes to tanks and you can't stop it by sniping a medivac. The best bio players will have 11 naked marines or less with a bunker vs my 11 marines and 2 tanks. I am not Thorzain and I can't win that fight so I don't try. I play safe and hope my opponent chooses to do the same or I take my boring free win and then resume giving free wins to Zerg.
The only push I fear is the marine/tank with no starport rush, but even that I can hold with my build. Maybe you can upload a replay or something so I can see exactly what you're doing?
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Really liked the comments above about holding the 1-base tank push vs. 1-rax FE. Thanks Starshaped about your build of rushing to 111 after 1-rax FE - will try that out.
Are there alternatives that aren't 1-rax FE but that expand quickly, while still being economical? What I'm thinking is something like 13-gas, getting the reactor rax, getting the factory started, and then expanding at some point quickly ... goal = safety from tank push, banshee, while getting a quick expo - just not as quick as 1-rax FE.
Is there anything semi-standard here? Or is it kind of either or - either 1-rax FE for the FE, or 111 for the quick aggression?
Looking for a middle ground! Alls I know is my 1-rax FE is dying A LOT to 1-base 111.
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