EPTThe Terran Help Me Thread - Page 267
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On June 19 2012 15:49 Worker Drop wrote: Thanks for the answer, i will try Reaper expand, but if in some case im playing against nexus first with rax fe Bomber Style, there is something i can do to punish them? What would be the best timing to do the atack? We know that parting love that style, and always goes heavy gateway ( Like 6 or more) then he gets templar. When should i atack? Asap? Or wait for min 6 or 7 etc? Ty. No problem. Honestly, in my experience there is no sure way to "punish" them. But that is my experience as a rank 1 master terran who has tried repeatedly through customs to find a way to punish the nexus first off 1 rax FE. It may be possible and I may have overlooked something, but I would recommend to think of it in a different way. Instead of thinking about punishing it with your micro, perhaps you can punish it with macro off a double expand, and feigning pressure. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
Even at high masters, it works way more often than it should for me. Just one of those things you can abuse until they all catch on to it. | ||
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Starshaped
Sweden575 Posts
On June 20 2012 03:34 gavinashun wrote: Really liked the comments above about holding the 1-base tank push vs. 1-rax FE. Thanks Starshaped about your build of rushing to 111 after 1-rax FE - will try that out. Are there alternatives that aren't 1-rax FE but that expand quickly, while still being economical? What I'm thinking is something like 13-gas, getting the reactor rax, getting the factory started, and then expanding at some point quickly ... goal = safety from tank push, banshee, while getting a quick expo - just not as quick as 1-rax FE. Is there anything semi-standard here? Or is it kind of either or - either 1-rax FE for the FE, or 111 for the quick aggression? Looking for a middle ground! Alls I know is my 1-rax FE is dying A LOT to 1-base 111. No problem =) There are a lot of middle-of-the-road builds. I mean, any techbuild into expo relies on doing enough damage to at least equalize the game, and hopefully put you at an advantage. But what you're talking about is a purely defensive techbuild into expo, which I can tell you is just bad, at least it's bad to do it blindly. If you go gas and your opponent goes gas you can for example raven expand. You see that you are both going tech so you decide to play the defensive role, this is fine. But as a general build it's never wise to do what you said. If you're up against a FE and you went the tech-path you need to do damage, basically. You can for example banshee expand (1-1-1, poke with banshee and expand behind it) or marine/hellion pressure and expand behind it, or cloakshee and expand behind it. Basically every harass-build can be expanded behind, but any build that relies on a frontal assault (siegetank pushes etc.) is basically do-or-die. You can do reactor marine expand, or hellion expand, which can be nice against 1rax FE because even if you're a little behind in economy you get your tech a little faster so you control the game more or less. In the end, though, I would recommend you to just practice the 1rax FE, because ultimately it IS a safe build, and it's the most versatile one. Edit: On June 20 2012 03:56 Bagi wrote: I find the best way to punish nexus first against tosses with 1rax fe is to just start a bunker out of their LOS after you've pretended to run away with your scouting SCV, and rallying any marines towards it. Even at high masters, it works way more often than it should for me. Just one of those things you can abuse until they all catch on to it. This. I like to put the bunker behind their mineral line, it's even good if they see it, because they have to pull probes etc. and even then it can be difficult to take it down because of how the bunker is placed. It's basically the same as when you put a bunker behind the 15hatch in TvZ. | ||
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Awmaface
United States21 Posts
On June 20 2012 03:34 gavinashun wrote: Really liked the comments above about holding the 1-base tank push vs. 1-rax FE. Thanks Starshaped about your build of rushing to 111 after 1-rax FE - will try that out. Are there alternatives that aren't 1-rax FE but that expand quickly, while still being economical? What I'm thinking is something like 13-gas, getting the reactor rax, getting the factory started, and then expanding at some point quickly ... goal = safety from tank push, banshee, while getting a quick expo - just not as quick as 1-rax FE. Is there anything semi-standard here? Or is it kind of either or - either 1-rax FE for the FE, or 111 for the quick aggression? Looking for a middle ground! Alls I know is my 1-rax FE is dying A LOT to 1-base 111. You can do the tank expand which is pretty much what you explained there, clearly the expo will be later, but it also gives you the opportunity to put on a marine/tank pressure if you want. If they go straight cloak banshees youll run into some trouble and itll come down to positioning and micro. If you are really fearful of the bansees, grab an ebay for turrets and make sure his banshees dont snipe your tanks. Basic BO Tank expand: 13 Gas Factory after 2nd supply depoy 2nd gas after factory Reactor after 3rd marine Tech lab Factory 1st Tank, 2nd Tank then Siege CC ~6:20 Another alternatives which i like is taking 13 gas, but only gather 50 gas for a reactor for your Rax. This is more economic opening then the Tanks expand, and more units then a straight up naked Rax CC. The fast reactor should be enough to hold off any reaper play and bio rush play. A good follow up after the CC that i prefer in TvT is to take my 2nd gas after my CC and get factory/sp asap. With this build you will have siege finished at 7:50 if you nail everything right, so you can get hit early with a marine tank push (as described above) so you have to be active with your marines if you see them move out, you are looking to trade marine for marine and back away if his tanks start to siege, you are buying time at that point. Basic BO Reactor Rax expand: 13 Gas (3 scvs, pull off when you gather 50 gas) Reactor Rax after 1st Marine CC ~3:50 And alternatively you can do reaper expos etc, but the above are other common ways to play it out. And if you are still really stumped by the 111, do it yourself and see how ppl stop you ^^ | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On June 20 2012 03:34 gavinashun wrote: Really liked the comments above about holding the 1-base tank push vs. 1-rax FE. Thanks Starshaped about your build of rushing to 111 after 1-rax FE - will try that out. Are there alternatives that aren't 1-rax FE but that expand quickly, while still being economical? What I'm thinking is something like 13-gas, getting the reactor rax, getting the factory started, and then expanding at some point quickly ... goal = safety from tank push, banshee, while getting a quick expo - just not as quick as 1-rax FE. Is there anything semi-standard here? Or is it kind of either or - either 1-rax FE for the FE, or 111 for the quick aggression? Looking for a middle ground! Alls I know is my 1-rax FE is dying A LOT to 1-base 111. Early gas, 1 reactor rax, 1 tech lab factory, get tanks and a lot of marines with an in-base CC. Honestly though, you should never die to a 1-1-1 unless you're not being active on the map or you have an early aggression build that's not as good. I guarantee that if you take the watchtowers and kept part of your army outside your base, you should be able to hold off those 1-1-1s. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
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zende
Sweden234 Posts
i'm a masters terran and i used to go for the standard reactor hellion openings to contain and to deny spread but i feel that doing that is really hard right now. i've been reading up how to change my game and i heard a lot of pros use the fast 3cc build which i thought sounded interesting. now i'm wondering, before i go into ladder and lose all my points because i have no clue of how this build works - how do you do it? does anyone of you have a build order for it? that would be amazing. how do you transition out of it? i feel like if i play too passive i'll let the zerg get hive tech too easily which i don't want to give them for free. also, do you have any other builds except the fast 3cc in TvZ? thanks alot guys! | ||
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DelugeSC
United States96 Posts
Hellion/Reaper/Medivac to Expand 10 - SD 12 - Rax 13 - Gas @100 Gas - Factory @25 Gas - Tech Lab on Barracks Constantly making SCVs + SDs @TL 100% - Reaper, Reaper Speed --> Rally to safe location near entrance to opponent's base @100% Factory - Starport, Hellion, Engineering Bay @100% Starport - Medivac, Viking, Turret in base @4 Hellions - Load up into Medivac, ferry to Reaper entrance, drop Hellions with Reapers. Medivac heals reapers, 4 Hellions kite. @ Move-out, Command Center I've had a ton of success with this build in rank ~10 Diamond with a 75% win rate in TvT. What this build is GOOD against -This build crushes 1 Rax FE and common Marine-heavy openers. You can kill so many marines with this opening force and then have free reign against SCVs. -Cloaked Banshee. If the opponent rushes to Banshee, you should keep your Hellions at home hidden and harass with the Reapers, constantly picking them up with the Medivac when the Banshee is near. You can take out 10+ SCVs with the ~4 Reapers you have in their base with medivac support while getting more Vikings for base defense back home. What this build is OKAY against -111 pushes. I can usually beat a player who is hitting me with a quick tank and marines with good scouting. When he is coming at me with a tank and marines, I run in and focus down the marines. Completely ignore the tank, you won't kill it. Continnue on to his base and get as many SCV kills as you can while transitioning to cloaked Banshee to take care of tanks and harass his base while you settle your own expansion. What this build is BAD against -Fast tank expands. If your opponent is going mech or gets out 2 tanks quickly, he can easily shrug off the incoming units. If you fail to scout this opening it can be rough. Try to not lose your early units and take your own expo while getting a Banshee to try and harass while catching up. All of my losses have come from mismicro of units and poor decision making late-game. I have yet to lose with this build before 10 minutes. If there is enough response I might consider making an in-depth guide with timings and things to look for. I know this is already a build but I haven't seen a good guide for it out there. | ||
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gavinashun
101 Posts
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jprid396
United States11 Posts
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Vanchen
55 Posts
On June 20 2012 05:22 DelugeSC wrote: Anyone in need of a funky TvT opener should try what I've been doing. It's risky and you need to to damage with it, but that's often very easy to do. Hellion/Reaper/Medivac to Expand 10 - SD 12 - Rax 13 - Gas @100 Gas - Factory @25 Gas - Tech Lab on Barracks Constantly making SCVs + SDs @TL 100% - Reaper, Reaper Speed --> Rally to safe location near entrance to opponent's base @100% Factory - Starport, Hellion, Engineering Bay @100% Starport - Medivac, Viking, Turret in base @4 Hellions - Load up into Medivac, ferry to Reaper entrance, drop Hellions with Reapers. Medivac heals reapers, 4 Hellions kite. @ Move-out, Command Center I've had a ton of success with this build in rank ~10 Diamond with a 75% win rate in TvT. What this build is GOOD against -This build crushes 1 Rax FE and common Marine-heavy openers. You can kill so many marines with this opening force and then have free reign against SCVs. -Cloaked Banshee. If the opponent rushes to Banshee, you should keep your Hellions at home hidden and harass with the Reapers, constantly picking them up with the Medivac when the Banshee is near. You can take out 10+ SCVs with the ~4 Reapers you have in their base with medivac support while getting more Vikings for base defense back home. What this build is OKAY against -111 pushes. I can usually beat a player who is hitting me with a quick tank and marines with good scouting. When he is coming at me with a tank and marines, I run in and focus down the marines. Completely ignore the tank, you won't kill it. Continnue on to his base and get as many SCV kills as you can while transitioning to cloaked Banshee to take care of tanks and harass his base while you settle your own expansion. What this build is BAD against -Fast tank expands. If your opponent is going mech or gets out 2 tanks quickly, he can easily shrug off the incoming units. If you fail to scout this opening it can be rough. Try to not lose your early units and take your own expo while getting a Banshee to try and harass while catching up. All of my losses have come from mismicro of units and poor decision making late-game. I have yet to lose with this build before 10 minutes. If there is enough response I might consider making an in-depth guide with timings and things to look for. I know this is already a build but I haven't seen a good guide for it out there. Why do you go factory first? The version I do you go: 10 Depot 12 Rax 13 Gas @25 techlab (no marine) 15 gas 16 orbital r16 reaper 17 depot @100 gas Factory and just get your stuff in order from there. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On June 20 2012 06:08 Vanchen wrote: Why do you go factory first? The version I do you go: 10 Depot 12 Rax 13 Gas @25 techlab (no marine) 15 gas 16 orbital r16 reaper 17 depot @100 gas Factory and just get your stuff in order from there. I do same. 2nd gas before reaper, then factory at 100 gas delay 2nd reaper, then constant reaper/hellion and medic. If you want a non expo all in reaper hellion, when you drop factory, drop a 2nd rax. Constant reaper/hellion and medic, has like 2 more reapers when you push out, and constant 2 reaper 1 hellion production cycle. | ||
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BronzeVirus
United States7 Posts
I could think of some uses in TvP too. Gotta mess around and look at some numbers before I call that tho. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12043 Posts
On June 20 2012 03:02 Starshaped wrote: 15cc is standard, but I think 14cc is good for some reason, the way MKP does it. Personally, I always do it on 15. But yeah, 'naturally' it is 15cc, as in constant SCV production until 400 excess minerals. Funny how you only do it in TvP when it's a lot more common/good in TvZ and TvT :D I mech in TvZ and TvT so I usually go for the factory first on those matchups. There's just something I love about going CC first in TvP. Maybe it's because I keep making protoss think I'm 2 raxing them when they don't see my SCV go down to my nat :p | ||
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Vanchen
55 Posts
On June 20 2012 07:09 iAmJeffReY wrote: I do same. 2nd gas before reaper, then factory at 100 gas delay 2nd reaper, then constant reaper/hellion and medic. If you want a non expo all in reaper hellion, when you drop factory, drop a 2nd rax. Constant reaper/hellion and medic, has like 2 more reapers when you push out, and constant 2 reaper 1 hellion production cycle. There is also an allin one where you end up with 8 reapers and 3 hellions and 1 medivac and then the follow up is a 3 tank combat shield push to kill them after you delay stim or siege or whatever. | ||
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AKomrade
United States582 Posts
On June 20 2012 08:46 Vanchen wrote: There is also an allin one where you end up with 8 reapers and 3 hellions and 1 medivac and then the follow up is a 3 tank combat shield push to kill them after you delay stim or siege or whatever. Do you have a replay? I love Reaper/Hellion, would like to have an extra transition or two for it. | ||
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DelugeSC
United States96 Posts
On June 20 2012 06:08 Vanchen wrote: Why do you go factory first? The version I do you go: 10 Depot 12 Rax 13 Gas @25 techlab (no marine) 15 gas 16 orbital r16 reaper 17 depot @100 gas Factory and just get your stuff in order from there. I guess because I don't want to prioritize getting a single reaper out fast when I'm just going to delay the 2nd. There isn't a point to getting a reaper out early because if your opponent scans it he'll know it's Reaper and not fast Stim or Marauder play. | ||
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Starshaped
Sweden575 Posts
On June 20 2012 07:09 iAmJeffReY wrote: I do same. 2nd gas before reaper, then factory at 100 gas delay 2nd reaper, then constant reaper/hellion and medic. If you want a non expo all in reaper hellion, when you drop factory, drop a 2nd rax. Constant reaper/hellion and medic, has like 2 more reapers when you push out, and constant 2 reaper 1 hellion production cycle. The best way to make it all-in is to follow up with cloakshee imo. You kill as many (usually all) their marines with hellion/reaper, so they won't have much to say about banshees in their mineral line, but I guess any follow-up is good. On June 20 2012 08:17 Qikz wrote: I mech in TvZ and TvT so I usually go for the factory first on those matchups. There's just something I love about going CC first in TvP. Maybe it's because I keep making protoss think I'm 2 raxing them when they don't see my SCV go down to my nat :p I mech in every matchup and go 1rax FE in TvT and TvZ :O How does factory first do anything at all in the current state of TvZ? I think it just puts you more behind than you already are in this broken matchup. | ||
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gavinashun
101 Posts
Sorry - another question on TvT 1-rax FE vs. 111... I see you guys in this thread (and have heard from others) that one of the keys is controlling the watch tower to see the push coming, which makes sense. But the way it is often done to me is starting off with 1 or 2 banshees first. Makes it hard to control tower, and also hard to not be pinned in base/natural with marines. So I guess my question is: If I do my 6 minute scan and see starport with techlab, what should I do? :D | ||
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