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On April 26 2012 22:05 Knockoutpill wrote:
After watching a lot of deMuslim I do 1 rax FE in both TvP and TvZ these days and it's working wonders. After the FE I take two gas and get another two rax and start working on stim/shields/CS and depending on the scouting I may get an ebay. Then after the three rax I'll tech up to medivac and see where it goes from there. It's really working great for me.
But it's not working at all in TvT. TvT used to be my best matchup but if I 1 rax FE in TvT I just get steamrolled. I have to revert back to the 111 and win the tank/viking war to be successful in TvT. And tank/viking battles take SO LONG! I can't be bothered to play a 30 minute game every time I run into another terran.
So what should I do in TvT? Sometimes I just 2 or 3 proxy rax cheese rush (one base all in) to get it over with but that's no fun.
I'm generally a macro player with not very high APM. I like MMM. I almost never get ghosts. I'm in silver. My SC2 time is 95% watching games and 5% actually playing so I think I'm quite knowledgeable but not very skilled if you know what I mean.
You should look at cloaked banshee's, can pretty easily kill a Silver Terran if they don't prepare for it
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On April 26 2012 22:08 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 22:05 Knockoutpill wrote:
After watching a lot of deMuslim I do 1 rax FE in both TvP and TvZ these days and it's working wonders. After the FE I take two gas and get another two rax and start working on stim/shields/CS and depending on the scouting I may get an ebay. Then after the three rax I'll tech up to medivac and see where it goes from there. It's really working great for me.
But it's not working at all in TvT. TvT used to be my best matchup but if I 1 rax FE in TvT I just get steamrolled. I have to revert back to the 111 and win the tank/viking war to be successful in TvT. And tank/viking battles take SO LONG! I can't be bothered to play a 30 minute game every time I run into another terran.
So what should I do in TvT? Sometimes I just 2 or 3 proxy rax cheese rush (one base all in) to get it over with but that's no fun.
I'm generally a macro player with not very high APM. I like MMM. I almost never get ghosts. I'm in silver. My SC2 time is 95% watching games and 5% actually playing so I think I'm quite knowledgeable but not very skilled if you know what I mean. You should look at cloaked banshee's, can pretty easily kill a Silver Terran if they don't prepare for it
So 1-1-1 into cloaked banshees? The problem is that most silver terrans throw a scan around the 6:40 mark and if they see a tech lab at the starport they instantly throw down turrets and then if I go banshees I feel I get so much behind because I can't do much damage with them.
I could try to hide the starport somewhere in my base but then I have to get lucky with the scan and the base has to be big enough. If it's not big enough to hide buildings from scans I'd have to proxy the starport and then I'd also have to proxy the rax or the factory because I want to use one of those to build the techlab while the starport is building so I can get my banshees out ASAP.
Also, cloaked banshees seem like kind of a cheese. But I'm seeing a lot of Koreans use it in TvT so I guess it's super good. At least if you have great micro (shoot'n'scoot).
Tricky. Thanks for the tip. I may try it and see if I can do anything even though I'm getting scanned.
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Actually if your banshee do not attack their turrets, your ahead. The banshees can be kept to help sniping siege tank if he pushes you. So you can easily go to either pure mech or marine tank from a banshee opening.
I personnaly opens TvT with 1 Rax Fe into banshee, and am pretty happy with it.
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If i believe i have time to kill an expansion with a drop, should i go for it or should i go for the drones instead??
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On April 26 2012 22:52 Kerm wrote:
Actually if your banshee do not attack their turrets, your ahead. The banshees can be kept to help sniping siege tank if he pushes you. So you can easily go to either pure mech or marine tank from a banshee opening.
I personnaly opens TvT with 1 Rax Fe into banshee, and am pretty happy with it.
My first TvT of the day, on Metalopolis: I plan for a 1 rax + gas FE into 1/1/1 with cloaked banshees. I send out a scout at 13 supply and when I get to his base all I see is one refinery and one ebay. Ebay? Wtf? I immediately start preparing for some very weird proxy rax cheese. I keep letting my SCV run around in his base while dropping a couple of bunkers and putting all SCVs in my natural on a hot key. Then I suddenly see him dropping his rax inside his base. Oh dear.
That's silver for you.
I wasn't going to go cloaked banshees against an ebay first build. So I just went with my normal tank viking. It turned out, however, that the reason my opponent went ebay first is that he thinks cloaked banshees is the greatest strategy of all time, so not only did he want to be super safe against it, he was also going to employ that strategy for himself. So when I did a second scout around 7-8 minutes I saw the starport+techlab and I built an ebay and put up one turret in every mineral line (by this time I had taken my third). Once his banshees showed up I had 6-8 vikings and he failed miserably. I then took the gold and two more bases and pushed with ~15 tanks, 10 vikings and a raven while throwing down a fusion core and building three more starports with techlabs. It turned out he was only on two bases so it wasn't much of a contest. The trickiest part was he had like 5 takes evenly spaced out along the rim of his base, on the high ground, and next to them were several turrets, so it took a few scans to take that out.
Anyways. Sorry for the story, maybe this is not the place for it. I should ask a question I have been thinking about with the banshee opener:
If I'm going to go 1 rax FE into 1/1/1 into cloaked banshees and following up with tanks+vikings should I go refinery first or is is okay to go rax, refinery, OC, CC, refinery, factory, starport?
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So right now I've got into mid-high masters off three builds, one for each match up. I play 1 rax fe for tvt and tvp, and reactor hellions for tvz. I am pretty comfortable with micro/macro/multitask etc... but i think the fact that I am not following a precise build order is hindering me sometimes. I follow a loose pattern for each matchup and I also feel that my builds are a little out of date, seeings as i've been doing the same thing for months and I dont really see the pros doing what I do anymore..
What are the standard builds in this current metagame for terran? Is tvp 1 rax fe into three rax stim/medi still standard? is 1 rax fe for terran into either fast gas tank marine or 3 rax into marine/medivac the best? For zerg I see hellion fe is still pretty common but I see a lot of koreans doing a 1 rax fe into banshee/hellion and I've been looking into demuslims hellion marine push.. are they good builds for standard play?
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On April 27 2012 00:49 Fat Ninja wrote:
If i believe i have time to kill an expansion with a drop, should i go for it or should i go for the drones instead??
It's all situational. I always start on drones just a few stutters, but good zergs pull them. In that case, go for hatchery. If it's past their 4th, is usually doesn't have a shit ton of drones as is.
Just remember to pre spread if banes/infestors are on the field so you don't lose a whole drop to 2 banes, or 2 fungals.
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On April 27 2012 00:49 Fat Ninja wrote:
If i believe i have time to kill an expansion with a drop, should i go for it or should i go for the drones instead??
It depends a lot.
If you think you can get the hatchery I would almost always prefer that outcome, but if you think you might not have time to kill the hatch then kill drones. There's nothing more useless than a bunch of drones with no hatchery.
Late game 3/3 marines can burn down a hatchery so fast, this to me is the primary reason 3/3 marines are so good. Chances are they do no extra damage to units because zergs are usually good with upgrades, but they do 50% extra to buildings.
Zerg can replace workers almost instantly, but to replace a hatch takes much longer.
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On April 27 2012 02:58 MasonosaM wrote:
So right now I've got into mid-high masters off three builds, one for each match up. I play 1 rax fe for tvt and tvp, and reactor hellions for tvz. I am pretty comfortable with micro/macro/multitask etc... but i think the fact that I am not following a precise build order is hindering me sometimes. I follow a loose pattern for each matchup and I also feel that my builds are a little out of date, seeings as i've been doing the same thing for months and I dont really see the pros doing what I do anymore..
What are the standard builds in this current metagame for terran? Is tvp 1 rax fe into three rax stim/medi still standard? is 1 rax fe for terran into either fast gas tank marine or 3 rax into marine/medivac the best? For zerg I see hellion fe is still pretty common but I see a lot of koreans doing a 1 rax fe into banshee/hellion and I've been looking into demuslims hellion marine push.. are they good builds for standard play?
I think you are being a little hard on yourself to say you only know one build, 1 rax FE can lead into dozens of very different builds. Quite frankly I'd hesitate to even call it a build, it's the foundation of a variety of build orders.
I'd also say that it's pretty hard to say that there is one standard build any more. There are a large number or builds that are all equally viable. Just watch a bunch of pro games and pick up things that you like the look of. Anything that is repeated multiple times at a pro level is probably a good build.
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On April 26 2012 22:17 Knockoutpill wrote:
So 1-1-1 into cloaked banshees? The problem is that most silver terrans throw a scan around the 6:40 mark and if they see a tech lab at the starport they instantly throw down turrets and then if I go banshees I feel I get so much behind because I can't do much damage with them.
...
Also, cloaked banshees seem like kind of a cheese. But I'm seeing a lot of Koreans use it in TvT so I guess it's super good. At least if you have great micro (shoot'n'scoot).
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CYp2x.jpg)
So I made this cool image to demonstrate how to get most of your cloak banshees.
Red circle his mineral line obviously. If there's a turret move to yellow square, production is usually there. Check out what he has, move away if there's a turret. If not shoot at his marines to soften them up, kite them towards blue circle. Blue circle usually has his rax and 2 depos if he walled off. You can always pick up depo on south. Shoot his marines again to bait scans. Usually first tank is also there if he went for fast tank. Move out,clear towers and repair your banshees. It's really hard to not to do enough damage against low players even if they know it's coming. If you manage to force some turrets, pick up depo and marines, keep your banshees alive and expo behind you should be a head or at least even.
On April 26 2012 22:05 Knockoutpill wrote:
And tank/viking battles take SO LONG! I can't be bothered to play a 30 minute game every time I run into another terran.
If you want to end your games faster you can follow up with marine tank banshee push. Get siege mode, expo, 2 extra rax while doing banshee harass. Once you have 2-3 tanks move out, use banshees for vision and try to kill his tanks.Having a viking is also good if he got one to deal with your banshees. If you managed to good damage with banshees earlier and he expoed you will most likely win the game with the push. Sometimes you get him contained his main, macro up at home and win.
While doing that get ebay(s) if you don't have yet , start medivac production, get addons, 3rd CC etc, get standard game going on.
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What are the standard builds in this current metagame for terran? Is tvp 1 rax fe into three rax stim/medi still standard? is 1 rax fe for terran into either fast gas tank marine or 3 rax into marine/medivac the best? For zerg I see hellion fe is still pretty common but I see a lot of koreans doing a 1 rax fe into banshee/hellion and I've been looking into demuslims hellion marine push.. are they good builds for standard play?
If you're mid high masters probably better than me if you play constantly. But yes, demuslim marine hellion is sexy as shit. A random skeleton BO with a few reps below.
On April 26 2012 19:07 thepeonwhocould wrote:
I am a bit lost in TvZ at the moment (Diamond). I am having trouble with players who go mass ling into infestor. Any early push seems to get crushed by pure mass zergling.
What is the standard TvZ build against ling infestor these days?
I'll type out a quick skeleton if you want. It's demuslim 1 rax FE into marine hellion pressure.
I do very very well against ling infestor, often taking games well before infestors get to a good amount or even hive tech. Pressure is a beautiful thing against zerg. And this build is virtually bust safe if you scout at all decently, and split + prepare a bit.
10 depot
12 rax
15 depot to like 10% -> halt and scout (rax scv finishes) Or anytime before to deny scout, doesn't change the BO at all.
16 gas
17 marine
17 OC
21 CC at natural (once OC is done, make an SCV and rally it to natural 400 minerals once it gets there)
23 factory
24 depot (start wall off)
25 rax
25 rax
Go with constant scv production and 4 marines -> reactor. Keep scouting SCV alive. Check gas, and pool timing, then go to natural to scout for a spine if they make it. If they make a spine, move out with 3 marines to pressure with 3 marine 1 scv. If no spine, go on 4 marines 1 scv. Kite lings (they're slow) and snipe any OLs you can. Spines are my priority, as they die very fast to 4 marines 1 scv. With decent control, you can get 1-2 drones, 3-4 lings, maybe a queen if they're sloppy, or maybe an OL.
Once the 2/3 rax are done, one gets a tech lab other starts marines.
Once tech lab is about 50-75% done, start ebay at wall of.
Depot well before you need them to not be blocked.
Constant hellions to keep map control, and constant marines to bolster your army. Start stim once tech lab is done, and
+1 likewise with the ebay. After about 15-20 seconds of starting plus 1, start 2nd tech lab, and CS once it's done.
Move out a bit before stim cs and +1 finish to establish map control if it's 'safe'. Most zergs now a days go multiple queens, and a faster third. This push shits on those 3rds, as stim/cs/+1 marines with hellion support rolllllllll zerg units early. I personally delay the push by a bit, and make 3-4 marauders to pick off queens, and spines faster.
Once +1 is done, start +1 armor. When +1 armor is 70% start a 2nd ebay, and an armory.
Start 3rd cc 70-80 supply, in that range.
From there, get 2nd and 3rd gas, 2 more rax, starport, and 2nd factory. If they go ling infestor -> 2 factories start hellions constant with blue flame started. I have 5 rax, 2 tech lab, 3 reactor, 6 marine/2 marauder/2 hellion cycles. With this composition, you can be out on the map sniping lings and forcing more lings = less drones.
Once they establish a bit of order, tech lab 2nd factory, and get double factory siege tank production as you continue 5 rax, 2 fac, 1 port production.
You're set up for awesome 3 base production, fast upgrades, and constant pressure with still solid macro and an early third. Drops around 9-10 min.
A few random examples from my starting of ladder climb on KR/EU.
http://drop.sc/167847 random zerg on KR
http://drop.sc/167848 vs bane bust (says hes plat, but he was 300pt master on EU)
http://drop.sc/167849 random zerg on KR
http://drop.sc/157687 600 pt zerg on NA
http://drop.sc/158117 roach/ling -> roach bane ling tier1 mass zerg on EU
http://drop.sc/158705 vs 800pt zerg on NA going mass ling blind -> ling infestor fast third on daybreak
http://drop.sc/157009 vs 630 zerg on NA
http://drop.sc/157028 vs 400 pt zerg, I believe this is the 100% 5 rax 2 fac 1 port no tanks constant pressure game vs ling bling busts constantly.
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Has anyone started to encounter a new type of protoss allin on ladder? It seems to hit at roughly the same time as a 3gate robo, and it could be described as a 3gate void ray allin, I guess. It tends to have a large number of zealots, and a void ray or two with the push. The difficult think with dealing with this is that Toss can use the void ray to destroy lots of buildings with it charged up, and it can be used to do a high ground warp in. It also makes you split up your units a lot. Also, sometimes the stargate is proxied, so you can't scout it. Does anyone have advice on how to deal with this allin, especially from a 1rax expand? Thank you in advance.
http://drop.sc/167855 vs masters on KR doing 3 gate VR.
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When playing TvZ, is it normal for the zerg army to absolutely destroy your first 3 or 4 pushes? There seems to be no good timing to kill a zerg, only just whittling him down little by little with incredible multitasking and amazing macro.
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On April 27 2012 12:34 Qibla wrote:
When playing TvZ, is it normal for the zerg army to absolutely destroy your first 3 or 4 pushes? There seems to be no good timing to kill a zerg, only just whittling him down little by little with incredible multitasking and amazing macro.
Asked myself this question a lot lately... I think Zergs at my skill-level (plat-diamond) are just playing really save. I had to change my build/attack timing up quite a bit (used to do a 11 min push). But if Zerg has a lot of units he/she does not have to many drones so it's not to bad for you.
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On April 26 2012 22:17 Knockoutpill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 22:08 Chaggi wrote:On April 26 2012 22:05 Knockoutpill wrote:
After watching a lot of deMuslim I do 1 rax FE in both TvP and TvZ these days and it's working wonders. After the FE I take two gas and get another two rax and start working on stim/shields/CS and depending on the scouting I may get an ebay. Then after the three rax I'll tech up to medivac and see where it goes from there. It's really working great for me.
But it's not working at all in TvT. TvT used to be my best matchup but if I 1 rax FE in TvT I just get steamrolled. I have to revert back to the 111 and win the tank/viking war to be successful in TvT. And tank/viking battles take SO LONG! I can't be bothered to play a 30 minute game every time I run into another terran.
So what should I do in TvT? Sometimes I just 2 or 3 proxy rax cheese rush (one base all in) to get it over with but that's no fun.
I'm generally a macro player with not very high APM. I like MMM. I almost never get ghosts. I'm in silver. My SC2 time is 95% watching games and 5% actually playing so I think I'm quite knowledgeable but not very skilled if you know what I mean. You should look at cloaked banshee's, can pretty easily kill a Silver Terran if they don't prepare for it So 1-1-1 into cloaked banshees? The problem is that most silver terrans throw a scan around the 6:40 mark and if they see a tech lab at the starport they instantly throw down turrets and then if I go banshees I feel I get so much behind because I can't do much damage with them. I could try to hide the starport somewhere in my base but then I have to get lucky with the scan and the base has to be big enough. If it's not big enough to hide buildings from scans I'd have to proxy the starport and then I'd also have to proxy the rax or the factory because I want to use one of those to build the techlab while the starport is building so I can get my banshees out ASAP. Also, cloaked banshees seem like kind of a cheese. But I'm seeing a lot of Koreans use it in TvT so I guess it's super good. At least if you have great micro (shoot'n'scoot). Tricky. Thanks for the tip. I may try it and see if I can do anything even though I'm getting scanned.
Keep this in mind cause it'll be an important concept for later, but doing damage doesn't always mean killing stuff. If you can get like 10-20 SCV kills with that banshee, that's amazing. But if you can force him to overmake and commit 5-6 turrets, that's pretty good too. Or even waste 2-3 scans trying to kill your banshee. Or even keeping him in his base for too long while you mass tanks or something and take another base.
Cloaked banshee is a really good opening just cause of how flexible it is, and how many ways you can transition. I LOVE going mech after cloaked banshee's too, just a great starting point.
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On April 27 2012 15:06 TAAF wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 12:34 Qibla wrote:
When playing TvZ, is it normal for the zerg army to absolutely destroy your first 3 or 4 pushes? There seems to be no good timing to kill a zerg, only just whittling him down little by little with incredible multitasking and amazing macro. Asked myself this question a lot lately... I think Zergs at my skill-level (plat-diamond) are just playing really save. I had to change my build/attack timing up quite a bit (used to do a 11 min push). But if Zerg has a lot of units he/she does not have to many drones so it's not to bad for you.
Hm, you shouldn't be getting absolutely destroyed in fights but it's normal for their reinforcements to clean you up. What build are you currently doing? I do a 10-11 minute +1 attack double medivac push on his third and kill it 75% of the time.
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On April 27 2012 12:34 Qibla wrote:
When playing TvZ, is it normal for the zerg army to absolutely destroy your first 3 or 4 pushes? There seems to be no good timing to kill a zerg, only just whittling him down little by little with incredible multitasking and amazing macro.
Post two above yours. Outlines a build that I use that is almost 100% kills their army, and crushes their third of higher level zergs.
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My new TvT build (thanks to great replies and hints in this thread) will be 1 rax FE and quickly get two cloaked banshees out and from there I follow up with mech or MMM depending on what the opponent does.
My question however is how many gasses should I take and when should I take them? Should I go refinery first (before first rax)? In what order should I open with in regards to rax, refineries, OC, CC, factory, starport and tech labs?
I know there's not a single correct answer to my question and it's probably quite situational (for instance depending on how many bunkers I have to make (if any), etc) but I'm curious as to what I should be aiming for. I'm just looking for general guide lines. Refinery first? Or take my first two gasses at the same time right after rax->OC->CC? When should I look to take the extra gasses in the natural?
I'm thinking about going rax -> refinery -> OC -> CC -> refinery -> factory -> tech lab on factory -> starport -> switch techlab to starport.
The goal is to get the CC (FE) up as soon as possible while also getting my two cloaked banshees out as soon as possible.
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EPT
