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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On March 07 2012 00:02 Twistacles wrote: On which maps are the 3 bunker wall viable? Is it only cloud kingdom or all of them? Shakuras is the main one. Cloud Kingdoms works. Perhaps Khoral ? I'm not sure. On the other one, there's no 3 building wall off spot that can reach the hatchery. | ||
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Lazerlike42
United States104 Posts
On March 06 2012 19:49 KriiLS wrote: Hello. This is my first post! I bought SC2 a month ago. (although ive been watching youtube videos of it since beta days but I needed a better PC to play). This forum has great advice so I thought I should register!! I read through the guidlines and forum/subforums but didn't find any specific area where only replays are analyzed...so I thought. since I play terran for now, I'd post here and ask your opinion. So far I'm really confortable with 3 barracks opening, especially against protoss. However, during mid game, I have trouble in several areas such as: getting appropriate unit composition, making more production building, in que units, etc etc. So its a work in progress. Anyways, I have these two replays of games I just played against a protoss player. I looked at them and I think the main reason I lost in both games is due to having a bad unit composition and not adapting well. I think it could have gone my way had I been a little bit more flexible. I'd really appretiate if you guys take a look at it. TvP loss 1 TvP loss 2 Thanks! (I tried to find if there was a specific way to post replays, I couldn't -- so I just found "gamereplays" website and uploaded there...please let me know if we're not allowed to post those links) edit: my sc name is Kriilunaus Watched the games. You didn't lose because of composition or adaptation, at least not primarily. These items are pretty far down the list at this point - even if you could have adapted a little better in the first half of game 2 (make less marauders and more marines against that many immortals). Right now, the thing you need to work on is simply macro. First, an exercise. Load up each game, click on your command center, then watch the game at 8x speed. You'll see the CC making SCVs early on, and then after the first few minutes, a whole bunch of stretches - some shorter, some longer - where it is not making SCVs. Your first step to improving is to focus on really making sure you are making SCVs constantly and not missing them. You might start by making some games versus the very easy computer where you do your build but pay very, very close attention to not missing SCVs (and of course, not getting supply blocked in the process). The second game was much better than the first, but in both this was a very fundamental problem which will make all the difference. Second, once you are comfortable with the basic 3 barracks build you are doing there, learn to incorporate an earlier expansion, and the ultimate goal in this regard is to expand more often throughout the course of the game. It can take a lot of comfort just playing the game fora while to start having 3 and 4 bases, but the first step, and one you definitely need to take, is to be able to have two bases (your main and the first expansion) much sooner than you do. Eventually, you'll usually want it around 4 minutes, but as you get used to things at first I'd say at least by 7 or 8 minutes. Then, of course, constant SCV production from both of them. You'll notice that especially in the second game, your opponent just expanded earlier and more often than you, which gave him a better ability to produce units and tech which eventually beat you. Work on these two things, and work on spending your money as constantly as possible. I was once given the exercise of creating a custom game with no opponent and then paying attention to only macro with a goal of having 150 supply by 15 minutes. It is very doable when you don't need to worry about an opponent or moving the army around, and I'd suggest trying an exercise like this. Perhaps see how high a count you can get by 15 minutes now, then set a reasonable goal and work towards that. It will require expanding relatively early, constant SCV production, and making additional barracks as you can afford them. At this point in your skill, this overall macro is really what matters most and will make far and away the biggest difference. That said, a couple of other things to at least keep in mind: - Your map presence was good. Being out on the map like that when you know you are safe and being able to see what is going on out there is good. - Don't try to fight up ramps into forces which are equal or larger than yours. It's a good way to take major damage - even if you scan to give yourself vision. - You can click directly on minerals with the MULE. You should not click somewhere else and then move it to the minerals. | ||
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Odds
Canada1188 Posts
"Oh, you can't win TvP? You're obviously a fucking scrub, all you have to do is triple medivac drop while pressuring his front and perfectly separately microing marines, marauders, EMPing, and positioning your vikings while you expand. It's simple, why are you so retarded?" I feel like I'm missing something huge. I've watched about 12 hours of videos and replays of TvP, I've read all the guides, and it doesn't make a bit of god damn difference. =/ | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On March 07 2012 08:03 Odds wrote: I'm seriously, seriously lost on TvP. I know that it's somewhat balanced at the highest level. I know that it's not useful to think of it as unbalanced. But I can't help getting super pissed off because all the fucking advice I'm given to deal with it boils down to is: be 10x as fast as your opponent. "Oh, you can't win TvP? You're obviously a fucking scrub, all you have to do is triple medivac drop while pressuring his front and perfectly separately microing marines, marauders, EMPing, and positioning your vikings while you expand. It's simple, why are you so retarded?" I feel like I'm missing something huge. I've watched about 12 hours of videos and replays of TvP, I've read all the guides, and it doesn't make a bit of god damn difference. =/ Toss in a 1-1-1 and rejoice at beating a protoss better than you. Just don't get addicted. | ||
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Odds
Canada1188 Posts
On March 07 2012 08:32 iAmJeffReY wrote: Toss in a 1-1-1 and rejoice at beating a protoss better than you. Just don't get addicted. I'd rather not. I just want to improve and not get so pissed off at the obviously broken matchup so that I can beat it instead of crying, but don't know how to not let it get to me. | ||
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Striker.superfreunde
Germany1118 Posts
Yesterday i watched a replay. I saw only tech labs, no researches.. followed by an all-in with all scvs. Is this the way it should be played currently? | ||
Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
On March 07 2012 08:37 Striker.superfreunde wrote: I haven't played 1-1-1 since... almost beta time. Yesterday i watched a replay. I saw only tech labs, no researches.. followed by an all-in with all scvs. Is this the way it should be played currently? Well, in the standard ones you research siege and maybe cloak, and I don't think you usually pull all the SCVs, but basically, yes. | ||
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Lazerlike42
United States104 Posts
On March 07 2012 08:35 Odds wrote: I'd rather not. I just want to improve and not get so pissed off at the obviously broken matchup so that I can beat it instead of crying, but don't know how to not let it get to me. What about it specifically causes you the most or biggest problems? | ||
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Odds
Canada1188 Posts
-If I scan a robo but no units, how in the fuck can I tell whether he's just using it for observers, or immortals, or colossi? If I guess wrong, I instantly lose. -How am I supposed to win any lategame battle, ever? Marines feel all but useless against the beyond-fucking-ridiculous psi storm and colossi. If I sit ghosts out front, they get sniped by colossi/feedback/storm/blink stalkers. Marauders are awful against zealots, and for some reason only target zealots when a-moved. -Everyone says to drop, but drops do nothing, he just warps in and laughs. -I know I'm supposed to snipe observers, but how? If I'm moving as fast as I have to in order to stay even (~3x protoss apm), it's not like i can linger on one screen to try to find an obs that may or may not be there. -The protoss can FE, then do an immortal break that's basically impossible to stop even if I scout it coming way ahead of time and build nothing but marines and bunkers. He can just walk into the bunkers and smash all of them, unless I pull >10 SCVs to repair them BEFORE he comes into range, in which case I'm behind in econ despite his number of units being as powerful as a fucking all-in build. He loses nothing in economy for this, and if for some reason he decides not to kill me then and there, he can just back off and be way ahead in econ. How is this remotely fucking fair? -If I scout 2 pylons and know beyond a shadow of a doubt the toss is going to proxy all-in, I still lose 50% of the time because it's impossible to know whether it's stargate or 4gate proxy. I know terran QQ about protoss is hardly original, and, again, intellectually I know that the only reason I'm losing is because I'm fucking bad. I know that. But every single game I play against them, I feel that if I won, it's because the P player is unimaginably awful, and if I lose, it feels like I've been cheated. I can't seem to win against any P remotely in my league range. Edit: Too many ALLCAPS, EVERY time I want to make a POINT. Again, apologies for the bitchy tone. I'm going to just work on my macro for now. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
On March 07 2012 09:15 Odds wrote: -I can't figure out how or when to scout what he's doing. If I send anything crossmap, it just dies to his first stalker. If I scan, I'm way behind in econ because of chrono boosted probes, and his units are more cost efficient anyways. -If I scan a robo but no units, how in the fuck can I tell whether he's just using it for observers, or immortals, or colossi? If I guess wrong, I instantly lose. -How am I supposed to win any lategame battle, ever? Marines feel all but useless against the beyond-fucking-ridiculous psi storm and colossi. If I sit ghosts out front, they get sniped by colossi/feedback/storm/blink stalkers. Marauders are awful against zealots, and for some reason only target zealots when a-moved. -Everyone says to drop, but drops do nothing, he just warps in and laughs. -I know I'm supposed to snipe observers, but how? If I'm moving as fast as I have to in order to stay even (~3x protoss apm), it's not like i can linger on one screen to try to find an obs that may or may not be there. -The protoss can FE, then do an immortal break that's basically impossible to stop even if I scout it coming way ahead of time and build nothing but marines and bunkers. He can just walk into the bunkers and smash all of them, unless I pull >10 SCVs to repair them BEFORE he comes into range, in which case I'm behind in econ despite his number of units being as powerful as a fucking all-in build. He loses nothing in economy for this, and if for some reason he decides not to kill me then and there, he can just back off and be way ahead in econ. How is this remotely fucking fair? -If I scout 2 pylons and know beyond a shadow of a doubt the toss is going to proxy all-in, I still lose 50% of the time because it's impossible to know whether it's stargate or 4gate proxy. I know terran QQ about protoss is hardly original, and, again, intellectually I know that the only reason I'm losing is because I'm fucking bad. I know that. But every single game I play against them, I feel that if I won, it's because the P player is unimaginably awful, and if I lose, it feels like I've been cheated. I can't seem to win against any P remotely in my league range. Edit: Too many ALLCAPS, EVERY time I want to make a POINT. Again, apologies for the bitchy tone. I'm going to just work on my macro for now. This is going to be reality for awhile buddy, MU is broken at Master lvl. You wont be able to play macro and win consistently. I would throw some 1-1-1's in there especially on some of the more ridiculous toss maps like Cloud Kingdom. | ||
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Vari
United States532 Posts
if he attacks you with 3 immortals he has no colossus. that means you have lots of medivacs, that's good. 10 scvs repairing to keep you alive means you crush his attack which means you're ahead. or he doesn't actually attack and has an army that's not great against yours for a little while (after the push timing I mean). look at how many pro tvps end before the late game. you're better off just trying to duke it out with the protoss before he gets comfortable. I'm mid masters, not trying to sound like I know better but that's my advice. it has helped me recently. for fun, if you haven't, do a 1 rax expand into 5 rax before gas. attack with like 25-30 marines while you add gas for tech labs and eventually factories. you get so many units, and you replenish so quickly... it feels like a different game. it's not something you can do all the time (you might lose when you do it once) but it makes aggression more comfortable which I think is important. anyway I find it a nice alternative to play with every so often especially on maps with bigger naturals OR maps where toss try to be greedy (entombed for example) just some ideas. I hate protoss too but sitting back til I was on 3 bases, engaging, and then being pissed about the match up was not the right way to win. I'm assuming you tend towards this because none of your complaints were 'if I'm aggressive early he just lols' or whatever. but I don't mean 1 base aggression, to me that's another ticket to a loss. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On March 07 2012 08:03 Odds wrote: I'm seriously, seriously lost on TvP. I know that it's somewhat balanced at the highest level. I know that it's not useful to think of it as unbalanced. But I can't help getting super pissed off because all the fucking advice I'm given to deal with it boils down to is: be 10x as fast as your opponent. "Oh, you can't win TvP? You're obviously a fucking scrub, all you have to do is triple medivac drop while pressuring his front and perfectly separately microing marines, marauders, EMPing, and positioning your vikings while you expand. It's simple, why are you so retarded?" I feel like I'm missing something huge. I've watched about 12 hours of videos and replays of TvP, I've read all the guides, and it doesn't make a bit of god damn difference. =/ I suggest skipping MMM entirely vs. Protoss. MMM +V/G works excellent versus Protoss if you have pro level APM and multitasking. But for normal players the combo is simply too weak late game. In my experience it is much better to go marauder/banshee mid game into marauder/banshee/BC late game. Complement with some Vikings if he goes air and ghost/medivac. Banshees when you are spamming cloak on/off are excellent vs. anything on the ground and do ok vs. stalkers. They are also excellent at sniping expansions and tech and much easier to micro compared to drops. Marauders hard counter stalkers. BC to soak up damage and yamato high priority targets. Suddenly your late game army is just as strong as Protoss army, maybe even stronger. Plus you do not have to micro your ass off in order to win. So you open either 1rax expand or 3 rax into expand (depending on map and scouting info) and make mostly marines/marauder early game. Mid game you make mostly marauders, build 4 starports with tech labs and crank out banshees. If he goes templer get cloak so that you can spam cloak on/off thus becoming immune to feedback. Late game get more staports and get a healthy mix of marauders/medivac/banshee/bc/ghost. You will need a lot of gas, but so will Protoss. Make every expansion after the natural a PF and make extra orbitals and kill off SCVs late game. I upgrade both infantry and air, it is expensive but necessary. Remember that the Marauders are there to protect your air units against stalkers. If he for some reason just go mass air cut down on your Marauder production and complement with vikings instead. This strat is so fun to use! Back when I used MMM+V/G I knew I had to kill Protoss before late game or it would be over. Now it is Protoss that plays against the clock. | ||
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Odds
Canada1188 Posts
On March 07 2012 16:14 Vari wrote: I'm assuming you tend towards this because none of your complaints were 'if I'm aggressive early he just lols' or whatever. By nature I'm an extremely aggressive player, but I honestly hadn't even considered being aggro vs toss because stalkers make it impossible to do anything with marines. | ||
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Token`
United States4 Posts
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pedduck
Thailand468 Posts
On March 07 2012 08:35 Odds wrote: I'd rather not. I just want to improve and not get so pissed off at the obviously broken matchup so that I can beat it instead of crying, but don't know how to not let it get to me. I have the same problem as you. My guess is that you also played terran since sc bw and you like terran mechanic from scbw. The thing is we are not a macro race anymore, we have to be more sneaky as our 200\200 army is not as good as it use to in scbw. | ||
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Squigly
United Kingdom629 Posts
Im high Dia T if it matters (play master on the ladder) so I can execute a BO kinda okay and can micro reapers well enough. What im looking at atm is Prides thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=235989 It goes up to the CC being dropped, but im not sure on factory timings. I could just experiment but i thought id ask if its a known thing. | ||
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hersenen
Belize176 Posts
On March 07 2012 18:49 Squigly wrote: Does anyone know of anywhere i can find some sort of thread/BO/replay on 3 reaper rush into mech. TvT mainly but i wouldnt say no to a TvZ suggestion. I know the general idea but im pretty sure my execution is not optimal. Im high Dia T if it matters (play master on the ladder) so I can execute a BO kinda okay and can micro reapers well enough. What im looking at atm is Prides thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=235989 It goes up to the CC being dropped, but im not sure on factory timings. I could just experiment but i thought id ask if its a known thing. Try to find some recent replays of MMA or Mvp (or any top terran) going mech and look at their timings of gas/facts. I can probably find a few recently reps for you if you want. I know the standard is usually 2 (1 reactored 1 techlab) facts on 1 base, 3 (2 techlab, 1reactored) facts on 2base, and 5 facts on 3 base. (3 with tech labs, 2 with reactors constantly producing hellions) Generally after you have 5facs you just add additional starports instead of more facs. (well that's what I see Mvp do) | ||
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crow_mw
Poland115 Posts
I have read through guides and some other posts here and I hope I am not missing an obvious answer here, but I could really use some help with my SCV macro after initial phase of the game. After I make my first expansion I move roughly half of my SCVs to mine there and continue to train more in both bases, having them on one hotkey and ralied to their respective mineral fields. However, after I get a third base I sort of get lost in how should I manage my little diggers. I assume I should still have all my command centers on one hotkey. However by that time my main is usually already mined out or at least very saturated. How should I macro-control SCVs at that point? Should I rally SCVs from my initial base to my third base and keep training them in all 3 bases (even 4 later on)? Or should I only be training them in new base? If that is case, how to control this efficiently, as all my bases are on one hotkey (still want that for mule/scan) and I can't slimply press '5s', as this would produce SCV in my main. Also I would appreciate any general tips concerning producing and managing SCVs in multiple base scenario. | ||
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VoO
Germany278 Posts
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