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On February 10 2012 10:13 Steak_ wrote:Hello, I'm here again with the same problem, low masters Terran here. Can someone help me against these big marine-tank allins in tvt? I open the ThorZain build and lose 100% of the time to these builds, not sure how to stop them. I've tried pulling a ton of scvs before they get to my base but the splash damage seems to kill everything. Is it possible to defend against them? http://drop.sc/107909This is how my usual build fares against some kind of 1/1/1 allin. I'm not sure what I should've done, but I think I should've made bunkers and waited for +1..? But sometimes the timing hits after +1, before stim, and I still lose, with scvs. If I catch him unsieged he just runs all the way back home, coming with a bigger push. The ThorZain build goes straight up to medivacs, so should I go straight into siege tank if I scout this allin?
If your opponent doesnt go gasless expand or if you can't scout him be active about his expansion timing.Use your second orbital's first scan to get a confirmation about his structures etc.From that point on proceed to siege tanks asap.Cut even marine production a bit in order to get tech out.All ins from one base come just too fast for tzains build to kick in.You need to adapt to hold one base play.So you have the right idea.Remember that if he does this build he is all-in.Even cutting scv production in order to get more stuff and tech out to hold it would still keep you ahead!You still need to tech to starport cause most of these pushes have air support usually in the form of one viking.
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On February 10 2012 09:24 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 07:33 MadeOfPotato wrote:
My TvT endgame is terrible, almost every time the game gets past the 15 ~ 20 minute mark I lose for sure. No matter what I try, my opponent masses either thors or battle cruisers and I end up losing. I usually go marines, marauders tanks, and medivacs, with a transition into banshees, vikings and marines, but I just can't seem to find a way to make that transition into endgame units like Thors or Battlecruisers... Suggestions? You should find a way to end the game sooner. If they mass those units, there is a large window of time in which they are teching up to mass thors or battle cruisers. if you attack during that window, then you will almost definitely win. However, if you like MMM with tanks, you should just go crazy with drops if you dont want to attack. Either way if they mass thors or battlecruisers then you are being too passive, which you should never be if you play MMM.
Thanks. I usually try for a few small scouting pushes then a large push around 6 minutes, renforceing it as necessary, and honestly, I usually win with that build, but on the rare occasion they fight it off my game just goes down the tubes and they usually come back. However, I could see where I may not be agressive enough after my few initial pushes, so I'll try and keep the pressure up like you've suggested. Thanks again!
Another quick question: How many medivacs should I have for an efficient drop? And would it be better to drop in with no warning, or keep the enemy busy in the front of their base with a tank line and some marauders while I sneak a drop in their mineral line? Also, what are the best units to put into a drop? I usually just go with marines, but they usually get mopped up fairly quickly and don't do as much damage as I see in some replays...
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On February 10 2012 10:13 Steak_ wrote:Hello, I'm here again with the same problem, low masters Terran here. Can someone help me against these big marine-tank allins in tvt? I open the ThorZain build and lose 100% of the time to these builds, not sure how to stop them. I've tried pulling a ton of scvs before they get to my base but the splash damage seems to kill everything. Is it possible to defend against them? http://drop.sc/107909This is how my usual build fares against some kind of 1/1/1 allin. I'm not sure what I should've done, but I think I should've made bunkers and waited for +1..? But sometimes the timing hits after +1, before stim, and I still lose, with scvs. If I catch him unsieged he just runs all the way back home, coming with a bigger push. The ThorZain build goes straight up to medivacs, so should I go straight into siege tank if I scout this allin?
I'm playing the same build and it is indeed very hard to hold that push, i wouldn't say it's a direct build order loss though.
Although it depends a little on the map, whats's working best for me (mid master) is:
1.Getting map control. Hold watch towers and have an SCV outside of the opponent's natural to know the exact timing of when the push is coming. You did an ok job with that.
2. Buy as much time as possible. Fake an engagement, make him siege up in the middle of the map and then pull back, don't engage yet. Occasionly, on maps like taldarim (low ground siege) you even might have to float your OC away to not lose your SCVs early.
3. Imo most important part: Flanking. Right before he arrives at your base, send all of your marines somewhere behind the other terran's army. Be careful he doesn't scout this. The production cycles of your double reaktor barracks quickly make your new main army then.
4. Attack timing: Usually when stim finishes. If he's got SCVs with him, you may want to attack a little earlier, shortly before he finishes building up bunkers. Two SCVs lead the way to soak up some tank shots, then attack with another whole bunch of spread out SCVS, your main army and your flank at right the same time.
This should clean it up most of the times.
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On February 10 2012 09:59 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 09:55 Chaggi wrote:
In a TvT, would you still go for cloaked banshee if scouted early. it depends if they scout your starport or gas, as scouted early could also mean they scout you around 8 supply. If they see your starport or gas then your marine or other army should have stopped them from getting in. If they scan you should hide your starport somewhere if you really dont want to be scouted. However, it is still viable as long as they dont build a bazillion missile turrets.
Generally it's a scout with a scan or something, but almost always with Cloak between start to mid, and banshee is about to be started to mid done.
I'm just never sure since I've only started to use cloaked banshees and don't know what to do w/ them if the base is littered with turrets lol
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Ok....late game mech TvP...I apologize for asking, but I am sure many many meching Ts see this as imbalance, correct?
I managed to beat his deathball. My army consisted of Thors Tanks hellions ghost and vikings because he had some Colossi and void rays.
Yet, after my victory, 15-20 seconds later I faced like 30 zealots. What is this? Seriously? Warp gate are instant reinforcements. How are you meant to deal with that?
I beat him once, 20 seconds later he comes back with 30+ zealots. And most of my hellions are already dead. Now I understand why Avilo is so mad about this. I guess I have to nuke the warpgate......stupid annoying warpgates lol.
So......how do you meching Ts deal with this....Even Avilo gave up on mech TvP.... Just go to the search bar and type this "tvp late game" and you will see......how many people are having problems with this.....
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On February 10 2012 11:00 MadeOfPotato wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 09:24 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On February 10 2012 07:33 MadeOfPotato wrote:
My TvT endgame is terrible, almost every time the game gets past the 15 ~ 20 minute mark I lose for sure. No matter what I try, my opponent masses either thors or battle cruisers and I end up losing. I usually go marines, marauders tanks, and medivacs, with a transition into banshees, vikings and marines, but I just can't seem to find a way to make that transition into endgame units like Thors or Battlecruisers... Suggestions? You should find a way to end the game sooner. If they mass those units, there is a large window of time in which they are teching up to mass thors or battle cruisers. if you attack during that window, then you will almost definitely win. However, if you like MMM with tanks, you should just go crazy with drops if you dont want to attack. Either way if they mass thors or battlecruisers then you are being too passive, which you should never be if you play MMM. Thanks. I usually try for a few small scouting pushes then a large push around 6 minutes, renforceing it as necessary, and honestly, I usually win with that build, but on the rare occasion they fight it off my game just goes down the tubes and they usually come back. However, I could see where I may not be agressive enough after my few initial pushes, so I'll try and keep the pressure up like you've suggested. Thanks again! Another quick question: How many medivacs should I have for an efficient drop? And would it be better to drop in with no warning, or keep the enemy busy in the front of their base with a tank line and some marauders while I sneak a drop in their mineral line? Also, what are the best units to put into a drop? I usually just go with marines, but they usually get mopped up fairly quickly and don't do as much damage as I see in some replays...
1 to 2 medivacs is usually enough, but if you want a big drop to destroy a lot of structures you could go for 4 or so. Usually a good mix of marines and marauders (about half marauders) works for drops, unless zerg is focusing on lings. Then you could go for hellions or marines.
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On February 10 2012 12:03 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:
Ok....late game mech TvP...I apologize for asking, but I am sure many many meching Ts see this as imbalance, correct?
I managed to beat his deathball. My army consisted of Thors Tanks hellions ghost and vikings because he had some Colossi and void rays.
Yet, after my victory, 15-20 seconds later I faced like 30 zealots. What is this? Seriously? Warp gate are instant reinforcements. How are you meant to deal with that?
I beat him once, 20 seconds later he comes back with 30+ zealots. And most of my hellions are already dead. Now I understand why Avilo is so mad about this. I guess I have to nuke the warpgate......stupid annoying warpgates lol.
So......how do you meching Ts deal with this....Even Avilo gave up on mech TvP.... Just go to the search bar and type this "tvp late game" and you will see......how many people are having problems with this.....
30 zealots is a lot of minerals, gateways, and macro to dump all at once (i.e. in one cycle); so I can only assume without a replay that he was macroing during the attack (otherwise he had 30 gateways according to your scenario).
We'd need to see a replay to answer exactly, because it's possible you weren't keeping up with macro while he was.
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On February 10 2012 12:03 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:
Ok....late game mech TvP...I apologize for asking, but I am sure many many meching Ts see this as imbalance, correct?
I managed to beat his deathball. My army consisted of Thors Tanks hellions ghost and vikings because he had some Colossi and void rays.
Yet, after my victory, 15-20 seconds later I faced like 30 zealots. What is this? Seriously? Warp gate are instant reinforcements. How are you meant to deal with that?
I beat him once, 20 seconds later he comes back with 30+ zealots. And most of my hellions are already dead. Now I understand why Avilo is so mad about this. I guess I have to nuke the warpgate......stupid annoying warpgates lol.
So......how do you meching Ts deal with this....Even Avilo gave up on mech TvP.... Just go to the search bar and type this "tvp late game" and you will see......how many people are having problems with this.....
this is why I will always get banshees in conjunction with mech. seeing as you have thors that massive range is ideal for sniping obs. also banshees are great for quickly removing immortal shields.
and I know he got void rays but it depends how many, If you're upgrading air attack anyway and have a couple of starports I feel you can devote more to air and beat the air he produces. also a bit more air mixed in with the mech deathball gives you more mobility when it comes to defending drops and warp prism harrass etc
there is a good skymech guide on tl if you search for it
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On February 10 2012 10:13 Steak_ wrote:Hello, I'm here again with the same problem, low masters Terran here. Can someone help me against these big marine-tank allins in tvt? I open the ThorZain build and lose 100% of the time to these builds, not sure how to stop them. I've tried pulling a ton of scvs before they get to my base but the splash damage seems to kill everything. Is it possible to defend against them? http://drop.sc/107909This is how my usual build fares against some kind of 1/1/1 allin. I'm not sure what I should've done, but I think I should've made bunkers and waited for +1..? But sometimes the timing hits after +1, before stim, and I still lose, with scvs. If I catch him unsieged he just runs all the way back home, coming with a bigger push. The ThorZain build goes straight up to medivacs, so should I go straight into siege tank if I scout this allin?
I only do the thorzain build on tal darim, I don't like it on smaller maps. On Tal Darim, where the 111 push is very popular, holding the tower(s) is CRUCIAL. You have to be sure he isn't doing a tank push, if not you must hold that tower. When you see him arriving, run out from your ramp and set up a flank. Pull scvs and go with newly spawned units + engage with the flank. Although you lose some scvs, you smash down his whole army and you have upgraded marines (combat shield with +1 and stim on the way) - he has NOTHING of those upgrades. You also have double medivacs coming, and a way earlier orbital. It is worth it. Oftentimes you will be able (on certain maps..) to bust his tank line and win the game. On maps like Antiga you can't attack into him, so go into more factories and hold your position on the map. This is whats great with the thorzain build. Its very safe, against any uncareful player going tank or someone doing a bad marine-build, you can just crush them and win the game. If they are careful you can get map position with a lot of marines, and from there add more tanks and go into a normal TvT.
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Yeah, the Thorzain build is like every other FE builds not a hard counter to everything.
Is IS weak to 1-1-1 allins, and also mech with mass BF-helions.
The post above is IMO the best way to counter the 1-1-1. However, there are times were you need to change your build on the fly. If you see him go for mech, you kinda have to for marauders and a bunker or two.
When I use the build i tend to either win in overwhelming fasion or slowly die to 1-1-1s. On smaller maps i think it may be a little to much of a coinflip.
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On February 10 2012 11:41 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 09:59 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On February 10 2012 09:55 Chaggi wrote:
In a TvT, would you still go for cloaked banshee if scouted early. it depends if they scout your starport or gas, as scouted early could also mean they scout you around 8 supply. If they see your starport or gas then your marine or other army should have stopped them from getting in. If they scan you should hide your starport somewhere if you really dont want to be scouted. However, it is still viable as long as they dont build a bazillion missile turrets. Generally it's a scout with a scan or something, but almost always with Cloak between start to mid, and banshee is about to be started to mid done. I'm just never sure since I've only started to use cloaked banshees and don't know what to do w/ them if the base is littered with turrets lol
I have started to use cloaked banshees as a go-to-build in TvT again. And I very rearly cancel cloak if they scout it.
The role of the banshees is not only to kill probes but to make you safe until you have your expo and upgrades. If he builds 4-5 turrets to be able to leave his base you should have more than enough the hold it. The thing is that you need to be active with your banshees without losing them. Take out anything you can, like a suply depot, a tech lab etc. It will keep him in his base and you get to scout him 100%.
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Hey, I'm having trouble identifying and holding one-base protoss attacks. I open standard 1 rax gasless fe and then add on three more rax and make a bunker, but after the toss gets his first stalker out I feel like I don't have much map presence. Should I be building more bunkers at the start? For instance, I scanned a toss around 6 min and saw three warpgates, so I assumed that he was going to expand, but it turns out he had a proxy pylon and was attacking me...Any ideas?
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On February 10 2012 19:23 MiraculiX wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 11:41 Chaggi wrote:On February 10 2012 09:59 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On February 10 2012 09:55 Chaggi wrote:
In a TvT, would you still go for cloaked banshee if scouted early. it depends if they scout your starport or gas, as scouted early could also mean they scout you around 8 supply. If they see your starport or gas then your marine or other army should have stopped them from getting in. If they scan you should hide your starport somewhere if you really dont want to be scouted. However, it is still viable as long as they dont build a bazillion missile turrets. Generally it's a scout with a scan or something, but almost always with Cloak between start to mid, and banshee is about to be started to mid done. I'm just never sure since I've only started to use cloaked banshees and don't know what to do w/ them if the base is littered with turrets lol I have started to use cloaked banshees as a go-to-build in TvT again. And I very rearly cancel cloak if they scout it. The role of the banshees is not only to kill probes but to make you safe until you have your expo and upgrades. If he builds 4-5 turrets to be able to leave his base you should have more than enough the hold it. The thing is that you need to be active with your banshees without losing them. Take out anything you can, like a suply depot, a tech lab etc. It will keep him in his base and you get to scout him 100%.
The issue is the 350/300 you spend for 1 banshee and cloak, not to mention the total or 600/400 for 2 banshees with cloak. That's a LOT of damage to be done. If you don't do nearly enough, you will find yourself behind in a defensive posture.
Hey, I'm having trouble identifying and holding one-base protoss attacks. I open standard 1 rax gasless fe and then add on three more rax and make a bunker, but after the toss gets his first stalker out I feel like I don't have much map presence. Should I be building more bunkers at the start? For instance, I scanned a toss around 6 min and saw three warpgates, so I assumed that he was going to expand, but it turns out he had a proxy pylon and was attacking me...Any ideas?
scv scout. Keep away from protoss base from 4-4:45 or so. Poke the natural. Scout the main, you'll see 1 gas low chrono for 1 gate FE. Scout with ninja probe, and see no expo, and prepare accordingly.
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Yes, the banshees cost a great deal, but IMO they almost always pays for themselves. Either by killing SCVs, taking out buildings to slow him down, or as a combat unit. But yeah, you have to do some damage to break even or be ahead.
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How do I hold off this 1base 1/1/1 push with 2 tanks, a couple of marines, a viking and reinforcements rallied at the front when I go expansion, reactor hellions and a banshee? I really don't know how to scout this properly since my 1st scout won't see anything besides a std gas opening and my first 2 hellions as 2nd scout will only see his first troups moving out so I can't change my build very much and will be left with 6 hellions, 3-4 marines and one banshee in production vs his stuff.
I'm also unsure what to do in terms of defensive micro. Bunkers really don't help because he can just outrange them with tanks, he can shoot up my ramps, so any walloff is even disadvantageous. I could only try to get him unsieged on his way but I feel like I have too little army to do so. Once he's in position, I can't really do much and my opponents (mid diamond) play this a lot.
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On February 10 2012 19:45 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 19:23 MiraculiX wrote:On February 10 2012 11:41 Chaggi wrote:On February 10 2012 09:59 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On February 10 2012 09:55 Chaggi wrote:
In a TvT, would you still go for cloaked banshee if scouted early. it depends if they scout your starport or gas, as scouted early could also mean they scout you around 8 supply. If they see your starport or gas then your marine or other army should have stopped them from getting in. If they scan you should hide your starport somewhere if you really dont want to be scouted. However, it is still viable as long as they dont build a bazillion missile turrets. Generally it's a scout with a scan or something, but almost always with Cloak between start to mid, and banshee is about to be started to mid done. I'm just never sure since I've only started to use cloaked banshees and don't know what to do w/ them if the base is littered with turrets lol I have started to use cloaked banshees as a go-to-build in TvT again. And I very rearly cancel cloak if they scout it. The role of the banshees is not only to kill probes but to make you safe until you have your expo and upgrades. If he builds 4-5 turrets to be able to leave his base you should have more than enough the hold it. The thing is that you need to be active with your banshees without losing them. Take out anything you can, like a suply depot, a tech lab etc. It will keep him in his base and you get to scout him 100%. The issue is the 350/300 you spend for 1 banshee and cloak, not to mention the total or 600/400 for 2 banshees with cloak. That's a LOT of damage to be done. If you don't do nearly enough, you will find yourself behind in a defensive posture. Show nested quote +Hey, I'm having trouble identifying and holding one-base protoss attacks. I open standard 1 rax gasless fe and then add on three more rax and make a bunker, but after the toss gets his first stalker out I feel like I don't have much map presence. Should I be building more bunkers at the start? For instance, I scanned a toss around 6 min and saw three warpgates, so I assumed that he was going to expand, but it turns out he had a proxy pylon and was attacking me...Any ideas?
scv scout. Keep away from protoss base from 4-4:45 or so. Poke the natural. Scout the main, you'll see 1 gas low chrono for 1 gate FE. Scout with ninja probe, and see no expo, and prepare accordingly.
I find cloak being useful in almost every TvT I play. Against "high" Diamond and low masters they are often underprepared, and even if they prepare well enough the cloak has still not lost its entire relevance. You can oftentimes contain him because he won't be moving out when you have cloaked banshees around. It might only be working because my opponents are bad but I feel you just get so much for the money with cloak. The only times I don't like it is the fast viking and fast raven "build", but I meet it very rarely.
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On February 08 2012 11:02 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 02:36 huggab0y wrote:I've started playing terran a bit, usually play protoss and I'm in high diamond. I'm doing my terran games on the korean server so I don't screw up my ladder points on EU. Haven't played much at all and I notice koreans are considerably better than EU folks, I am in mid gold now and get outmacroed by silver players... I guess I'm not used to macro with terran yet  Anyway, in TvT I am playing thorzain's build with one rax expand into three rax, with fast upgrades and so on. The thing is I don't understand how to engage terrans who go one base with fast tanks and medivacs. I try to move out and engage him when he is not sieged. I have about 5-8 more marines than him, with combat shield, but his army still wins (because of medivacs?). I just need like 2-3 more mins for my medivacs + tanks to finish. Wish I could upload a replay but it doesnt seem to work with replayfu, and I guess you non-korean players cant view them anyway. TL;DR How to engage an early terran army with tanks + medivacs if I have only marines with combat shield? I think you're talking about Thorzain's build from the day9 daily a short while back. If so, that build doesn't move out until after you have stim + medivacs and +1 is about to finish. When you say that you try to move out and engage him, do you mean he is sieging outside your base and bunny hopping into your natural? If you are on 2 bases and your terran opponent is still on 1 base then you shouldn't be attacking into his main at all. You already have a huge lead with 2 base income vs his 1 base income. Grow your lead, take your 4th gas and start your own siege tank production and continue upgrading. Make sure you have a way to scout/deny him from taking hidden expansions. A replay would really be helpful if I've misunderstood what you were describing.
I think you should see it coming and get stim before shields. In addition to that I would suggest to engage with few marauders and 4-5 scv's to be used as cannon fodder if you really think he has a big force
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On February 10 2012 23:28 krooked wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 19:45 iAmJeffReY wrote:On February 10 2012 19:23 MiraculiX wrote:On February 10 2012 11:41 Chaggi wrote:On February 10 2012 09:59 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On February 10 2012 09:55 Chaggi wrote:
In a TvT, would you still go for cloaked banshee if scouted early. it depends if they scout your starport or gas, as scouted early could also mean they scout you around 8 supply. If they see your starport or gas then your marine or other army should have stopped them from getting in. If they scan you should hide your starport somewhere if you really dont want to be scouted. However, it is still viable as long as they dont build a bazillion missile turrets. Generally it's a scout with a scan or something, but almost always with Cloak between start to mid, and banshee is about to be started to mid done. I'm just never sure since I've only started to use cloaked banshees and don't know what to do w/ them if the base is littered with turrets lol I have started to use cloaked banshees as a go-to-build in TvT again. And I very rearly cancel cloak if they scout it. The role of the banshees is not only to kill probes but to make you safe until you have your expo and upgrades. If he builds 4-5 turrets to be able to leave his base you should have more than enough the hold it. The thing is that you need to be active with your banshees without losing them. Take out anything you can, like a suply depot, a tech lab etc. It will keep him in his base and you get to scout him 100%. The issue is the 350/300 you spend for 1 banshee and cloak, not to mention the total or 600/400 for 2 banshees with cloak. That's a LOT of damage to be done. If you don't do nearly enough, you will find yourself behind in a defensive posture. Hey, I'm having trouble identifying and holding one-base protoss attacks. I open standard 1 rax gasless fe and then add on three more rax and make a bunker, but after the toss gets his first stalker out I feel like I don't have much map presence. Should I be building more bunkers at the start? For instance, I scanned a toss around 6 min and saw three warpgates, so I assumed that he was going to expand, but it turns out he had a proxy pylon and was attacking me...Any ideas?
scv scout. Keep away from protoss base from 4-4:45 or so. Poke the natural. Scout the main, you'll see 1 gas low chrono for 1 gate FE. Scout with ninja probe, and see no expo, and prepare accordingly. I find cloak being useful in almost every TvT I play. Against "high" Diamond and low masters they are often underprepared, and even if they prepare well enough the cloak has still not lost its entire relevance. You can oftentimes contain him because he won't be moving out when you have cloaked banshees around. It might only be working because my opponents are bad but I feel you just get so much for the money with cloak. The only times I don't like it is the fast viking and fast raven "build", but I meet it very rarely.
Cloak banshee isn't at all bad. It's just gotta do damage, if they mitigated the damage with a few turrets, and a raven or vikings and 1-2 scans, they can safely macro and get way, WAY ahead.
Pro T do it all the time, hence the quality of the build. Even if you know it's coming, it can still do damage. I just never banshee in TvT, it's my personal preference. My banshee micro is shit.
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It's not even so much that it has to do damage but that the build hurts your economy. It also makes defending a misread 1-2 base early all in timing push much harder. I feel non cloaked banshee is better especially when you get them thinking that your about to come in with more "cloaked" banshee. The over reaction to seeing banshee can possibly pay off more then a few worker kills.
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EPT
