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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
On October 30 2012 07:02 probeater wrote:
can someone tell me what i should do against a random on a 4 player map (problem is if there zerg or not)? as in first pylon placement, should i scout with 2 probes and what building to put down if you still haven't found them
if it helps my standard builds are:
pvp 2 gate robo then expand if no 4gate
pvt 1 gate FE
pvz FFE
If you FFE in PvZ its not a bad idea to scout with another probe once you putnyour forge down at 14. Or you can just gamble and reactively place a pylon in behind mineral line if he 6 pools. Its a good habit to 9 scout in PvZ and recognise the different pool timings. Some will prompt a different sequence of building placements. IIRC, there was a thread regarding early pools and natural sim cities.
In PvT i always 9 scout. If i can see no gas, i wait around for confirmation of 1 rax FE around 3:30ish. If i cant scout it, ill MC 1 gate FE. If i can, ill plant nexus down around 24-26 supply.
In PvP you have the right idea in mind for safe builds. I gateway scout because probe can always be retained with waypoint queues until a stalker is out.
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What is the right way to click out forcefields?
At first I shift-clicked then realized i could just hold down F (which is better so i dont que attacks)
But if i ever happen to drag my mouse it wont drop a FF while holding F, it just draws a box.
However with the other option which I hit F before every FF, if i click before i hit F then im selecting the wrong units all of a sudden.
Is there a proper method?
I did a search for this but didnt find anything.
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Northern Ireland23785 Posts
On October 31 2012 02:32 frito wrote:
What is the right way to click out forcefields?
At first I shift-clicked then realized i could just hold down F (which is better so i dont que attacks)
But if i ever happen to drag my mouse it wont drop a FF while holding F, it just draws a box.
However with the other option which I hit F before every FF, if i click before i hit F then im selecting the wrong units all of a sudden.
Is there a proper method?
I did a search for this but didnt find anything.
I do F/click/F/click as does MC so I'd imagine it's a good method if the Boss Toss uses it.
Relevant Recent Thread
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On October 31 2012 00:16 etherealfall wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 07:02 probeater wrote:
can someone tell me what i should do against a random on a 4 player map (problem is if there zerg or not)? as in first pylon placement, should i scout with 2 probes and what building to put down if you still haven't found them
if it helps my standard builds are:
pvp 2 gate robo then expand if no 4gate
pvt 1 gate FE
pvz FFE
If you FFE in PvZ its not a bad idea to scout with another probe once you putnyour forge down at 14. Or you can just gamble and reactively place a pylon in behind mineral line if he 6 pools. Its a good habit to 9 scout in PvZ and recognise the different pool timings. Some will prompt a different sequence of building placements. IIRC, there was a thread regarding early pools and natural sim cities. In PvT i always 9 scout. If i can see no gas, i wait around for confirmation of 1 rax FE around 3:30ish. If i cant scout it, ill MC 1 gate FE. If i can, ill plant nexus down around 24-26 supply. In PvP you have the right idea in mind for safe builds. I gateway scout because probe can always be retained with waypoint queues until a stalker is out.
That's not really what he asked lol.
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On October 30 2012 07:02 probeater wrote:
can someone tell me what i should do against a random on a 4 player map (problem is if there zerg or not)? as in first pylon placement, should i scout with 2 probes and what building to put down if you still haven't found them
if it helps my standard builds are:
pvp 2 gate robo then expand if no 4gate
pvt 1 gate FE
pvz FFE
For me, my personal preference is to place the 9 Pylon as if I were doing a Gateway expand in PvZ, then send another scout after 12 Gateway if I don't scout him at the 1st spot. Sure, you take a dump early from sending two scouts early and cutting probes to get the 12 Gateway, but it's better than not dying (most randoms I play usually do some kind of early all-in or 2 base all-in).
If he's Zerg, then I'll do 1 Gate Expand while pressuring with an early Zealot/Stalker.
If he's Terran, spend your Chronoboosts on Probes and plan for a 1 Gate FE depending on how he opens (gasless FE or whatever).
This is personal preference for Protoss, but since I have my Gateway out at the usual time that I would normally for PvP, I just have to cut a little longer to get the Cybernetics Core out as soon as the Gateway is done.
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On October 30 2012 07:02 probeater wrote:
can someone tell me what i should do against a random on a 4 player map (problem is if there zerg or not)? as in first pylon placement, should i scout with 2 probes and what building to put down if you still haven't found them
if it helps my standard builds are:
pvp 2 gate robo then expand if no 4gate
pvt 1 gate FE
pvz FFE
Depending on the map I will do one of two things (also take these with a grain of salt as I'm only plat):
1) I'll just put a pylon at the top of my ramp, and scout. If it's vZ, I'll just gateway expand. If they aren't cheesing, you can usually get some quick pressure on them to limit the drone count. If it's vP or vT, just play standard from there.
2) I don't do this often (and I do it more on 2 player maps), I'll 6 scout, and hope to catch the guy earlier than my pylon. Sometimes I'll delay the pylon to 10, and if it's vP, korean style 4gate from there. Otherwise I'll just play it out. Your econ hurts from this, so I don't recommend it. I mostly do it if there is no glhf or something makes me think there is some cheese coming.
Question: In late game PvZ, should I prioritize killing the brood lords, or infestors? I typically go for the broods, but if I don't win the battle decisively, I feel like I give the zerg too much time to gather more energy.
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 31 2012 05:10 ThirdDegree wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 07:02 probeater wrote:
can someone tell me what i should do against a random on a 4 player map (problem is if there zerg or not)? as in first pylon placement, should i scout with 2 probes and what building to put down if you still haven't found them
if it helps my standard builds are:
pvp 2 gate robo then expand if no 4gate
pvt 1 gate FE
pvz FFE
Depending on the map I will do one of two things (also take these with a grain of salt as I'm only plat): 1) I'll just put a pylon at the top of my ramp, and scout. If it's vZ, I'll just gateway expand. If they aren't cheesing, you can usually get some quick pressure on them to limit the drone count. If it's vP or vT, just play standard from there. 2) I don't do this often (and I do it more on 2 player maps), I'll 6 scout, and hope to catch the guy earlier than my pylon. Sometimes I'll delay the pylon to 10, and if it's vP, korean style 4gate from there. Otherwise I'll just play it out. Your econ hurts from this, so I don't recommend it. I mostly do it if there is no glhf or something makes me think there is some cheese coming. Question: In late game PvZ, should I prioritize killing the brood lords, or infestors? I typically go for the broods, but if I don't win the battle decisively, I feel like I give the zerg too much time to gather more energy.
6 scouting is TERRIBLE for your economy, never ever do it. Way too big of a hit. Honestly vs random on 2 player maps you can just say fuck it and 13 scout too, while gateway expanding vs z. It's possible to hold off an early pool without even knowing it's coming off a gateway opener.
Regarding lategame pvz, your stalkers should 100% go on the broodlords when you can get a blink in. Generally it's the colossi/high templar/archons/zealots that deal with the infestors, broodlings and any ground force remaining.
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On October 31 2012 05:10 ThirdDegree wrote:
Question: In late game PvZ, should I prioritize killing the brood lords, or infestors? I typically go for the broods, but if I don't win the battle decisively, I feel like I give the zerg too much time to gather more energy.
The simple answer to your question though, is you want to shoot BLs since it costs more for them to remake them, plus it takes longer for them to build.
If you go for Infestors, they only take 50 seconds to make (almost 30 seconds quicker than building a Corruptor then building the BL), plus they always come with 1 Fungal anyway, so it's easier for them to remake Infestors than Brood Lords.
I always feel like fighting BL/Infestor in the current metagame is too tough unless you're miles ahead of him in terms of economy where you can afford throwing armies at the deathball, because there's never a good composition that can equally fight against a BL/Infestor army. Nowadays Zerg players are good enough to not get their Brood Lords in a bad position for Vortex.
I always like getting lots of High Templars when playing against these kind of compositions. If they send their Infestors too far up, then you can Feedback a couple. If they send their Brood Lords, then you can throw Storms on them. Since they're slow, you'll be able to get a decent amount of damage in. Just make sure to send HTs 1 or 2 at a time so you don't lose them to Fungals. At the same time, use Warp Prisms to warp all over the map and harass their bases so you prevent mining as much as possible.
In terms of what's best (and I use best loosely since there's really not a good composition to fight against BLs), but initially you want lots of Stalkers to blink under the BLs with Colossi and Storm to clean what little ground units they have (most of their food should be in the BLs). Later on, getting a money mix of Carriers, Archons, and Storm are nice.
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On October 31 2012 05:15 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 05:10 ThirdDegree wrote:On October 30 2012 07:02 probeater wrote:
can someone tell me what i should do against a random on a 4 player map (problem is if there zerg or not)? as in first pylon placement, should i scout with 2 probes and what building to put down if you still haven't found them
if it helps my standard builds are:
pvp 2 gate robo then expand if no 4gate
pvt 1 gate FE
pvz FFE
Depending on the map I will do one of two things (also take these with a grain of salt as I'm only plat): 1) I'll just put a pylon at the top of my ramp, and scout. If it's vZ, I'll just gateway expand. If they aren't cheesing, you can usually get some quick pressure on them to limit the drone count. If it's vP or vT, just play standard from there. 2) I don't do this often (and I do it more on 2 player maps), I'll 6 scout, and hope to catch the guy earlier than my pylon. Sometimes I'll delay the pylon to 10, and if it's vP, korean style 4gate from there. Otherwise I'll just play it out. Your econ hurts from this, so I don't recommend it. I mostly do it if there is no glhf or something makes me think there is some cheese coming. Question: In late game PvZ, should I prioritize killing the brood lords, or infestors? I typically go for the broods, but if I don't win the battle decisively, I feel like I give the zerg too much time to gather more energy. 6 scouting is TERRIBLE for your economy, never ever do it. Way too big of a hit. Honestly vs random on 2 player maps you can just say fuck it and 13 scout too, while gateway expanding vs z. It's possible to hold off an early pool without even knowing it's coming off a gateway opener. Regarding lategame pvz, your stalkers should 100% go on the broodlords when you can get a blink in. Generally it's the colossi/high templar/archons/zealots that deal with the infestors, broodlings and any ground force remaining.
If its Z then i just 1 base all-in them or gateway expand.
I always feel like fighting BL/Infestor in the current metagame is too tough unless you're miles ahead of him in terms of economy where you can afford throwing armies at the deathball, because there's never a good composition that can equally fight against a BL/Infestor army. Nowadays Zerg players are good enough to not get their Brood Lords in a bad position for Vortex.
I was watching miniguns stream the other day and imo he was winning battles that I thought he had no way of winning vs EGSuppyRC
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On October 30 2012 19:15 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 07:02 probeater wrote:
can someone tell me what i should do against a random on a 4 player map (problem is if there zerg or not)? as in first pylon placement, should i scout with 2 probes and what building to put down if you still haven't found them
if it helps my standard builds are:
pvp 2 gate robo then expand if no 4gate
pvt 1 gate FE
pvz FFE
9 scout, use this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296273 if he's Zerg.
would you recommend learning this build for 4 player map randoms or just instant quitting against them because i'll rarely face them anyway?
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On October 31 2012 06:36 MysteryMeat1 wrote:
I was watching miniguns stream the other day and imo he was winning battles that I thought he had no way of winning vs EGSuppyRC
It always depends on far ahead/behind the Zerg is when they get to Brood Lords.
If they're ahead, you get your advantage by dropping everywhere, either sniping buildings like their Hive, Greater Spire, Infestation Pit, or preventing them from mining at their other bases.
If the Zerg is behind, then you can get a big blink off under the Brood Lords and kill them on the spot in most cases.
If it's pretty even, then it's mainly about how well you engage the army and how well you combine drops and how well you Vortex/Storm.
There are ways to set yourself up better against Brood Lords, such as putting pressure around the 12/13 minute mark, which is around the time Zerg players usually get a Hive now. That way you force more Roaches and Zerglings being made before the inevitable transition. In some cases you can win outright by hitting them before their investment into Hive/Greater Spire pays off.
Afterwards, it's all about patience, as you usually don't want to be the one that starts the engagement against Infestor/BLs.
On October 31 2012 06:50 probeater wrote:
would you recommend learning this build for 4 player map randoms or just instant quitting against them because i'll rarely face them anyway?
There's not really a "go to" build for playing against random, you just want to scout as early as you can (9 Pylon), but the variations on stuff like PvZ and PvP are so different once your Cybernetics Core comes into play that you shouldn't always open the way the guide says, since that caters specifically to PvZ.
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On October 31 2012 07:16 Mugya wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 06:36 MysteryMeat1 wrote:
I was watching miniguns stream the other day and imo he was winning battles that I thought he had no way of winning vs EGSuppyRC It always depends on far ahead/behind the Zerg is when they get to Brood Lords. If they're ahead, you get your advantage by dropping everywhere, either sniping buildings like their Hive, Greater Spire, Infestation Pit, or preventing them from mining at their other bases. If the Zerg is behind, then you can get a big blink off under the Brood Lords and kill them on the spot in most cases. If it's pretty even, then it's mainly about how well you engage the army and how well you combine drops and how well you Vortex/Storm. There are ways to set yourself up better against Brood Lords, such as putting pressure around the 12/13 minute mark, which is around the time Zerg players usually get a Hive now. That way you force more Roaches and Zerglings being made before the inevitable transition. In some cases you can win outright by hitting them before their investment into Hive/Greater Spire pays off. Afterwards, it's all about patience, as you usually don't want to be the one that starts the engagement against Infestor/BLs.
It was mostly just his army control that i was quite impressed by. Whenever he engaged it was always in a position were he had units coming in from many sides. It also always seemed like he had just enough stalkers to oneshot broodlords.
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 31 2012 06:50 probeater wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 19:15 Teoita wrote:On October 30 2012 07:02 probeater wrote:
can someone tell me what i should do against a random on a 4 player map (problem is if there zerg or not)? as in first pylon placement, should i scout with 2 probes and what building to put down if you still haven't found them
if it helps my standard builds are:
pvp 2 gate robo then expand if no 4gate
pvt 1 gate FE
pvz FFE
9 scout, use this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296273 if he's Zerg. would you recommend learning this build for 4 player map randoms or just instant quitting against them because i'll rarely face them anyway?
Might as well learn it. It's not too hard, it helps on improving multitasking with the stalker harassment and having a gateway opener for PvZ can be useful in a BoX. Just don't focus on it too much to the point where your practice of more standard stuff gets worse.
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Hi,
I'm a complete noob with Protoss, used to play a different race.
I want to make a repertoire of strong all-ins for all match-ups to help me beat the low leagues.
I don't mind if it's 1 base or 2 base all-in, just something that can win all the way to diamond.
Would like to ear some suggestion for each MU.
Thx.
User was warned for this post
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On October 31 2012 09:23 Azoryen wrote:
Hi,
I'm a complete noob with Protoss, used to play a different race.
I want to make a repertoire of strong all-ins for all match-ups to help me beat the low leagues.
I don't mind if it's 1 base or 2 base all-in, just something that can win all the way to diamond.
Would like to ear some suggestion for each MU.
Thx.
PvT: 5 stalker void ray timing/Blink Obs
PvZ: 2B +1 3 Immortal timing
PvP: Cannon rush/2 phoenix 3 gate/2 Colossus timing/warp prism 4g
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Hello, I'm a platinum player on EU looking for some guidance. I've been playing the same build in PvP for about 6 months (Huk's dt rush into zealot/archon all in) and I would like to try something more macro oriented. Basically, I want to hit diamond and have at least 2 macro builds out of the 3 match-ups (PvZ being the one I don't want to be in late game).
I came across Naniwa's expand build and I was wondering if it's good for me to try it? Or are there any other standard/modern expand builds that you could show me?
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On October 31 2012 04:56 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 00:16 etherealfall wrote:On October 30 2012 07:02 probeater wrote:
can someone tell me what i should do against a random on a 4 player map (problem is if there zerg or not)? as in first pylon placement, should i scout with 2 probes and what building to put down if you still haven't found them
if it helps my standard builds are:
pvp 2 gate robo then expand if no 4gate
pvt 1 gate FE
pvz FFE
If you FFE in PvZ its not a bad idea to scout with another probe once you putnyour forge down at 14. Or you can just gamble and reactively place a pylon in behind mineral line if he 6 pools. Its a good habit to 9 scout in PvZ and recognise the different pool timings. Some will prompt a different sequence of building placements. IIRC, there was a thread regarding early pools and natural sim cities. In PvT i always 9 scout. If i can see no gas, i wait around for confirmation of 1 rax FE around 3:30ish. If i cant scout it, ill MC 1 gate FE. If i can, ill plant nexus down around 24-26 supply. In PvP you have the right idea in mind for safe builds. I gateway scout because probe can always be retained with waypoint queues until a stalker is out. That's not really what he asked lol.
Oh youre right. My bad. Too tired lol. Stupid uni exams D:
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On November 01 2012 00:06 Kinon wrote:Hello, I'm a platinum player on EU looking for some guidance. I've been playing the same build in PvP for about 6 months (Huk's dt rush into zealot/archon all in) and I would like to try something more macro oriented. Basically, I want to hit diamond and have at least 2 macro builds out of the 3 match-ups (PvZ being the one I don't want to be in late game). I came across Naniwa's expand build and I was wondering if it's good for me to try it? Or are there any other standard/modern expand builds that you could show me?
You might try the 3 stalker opening (gate, core, gate) -> 2 sentry -> nexus -> 2 more sentries -> robo build. I believe Oz used that build quite a lot back at one point.
Alternatively, phoenix openings are a good way to get an edge in a macro game. You can start a stargate as early as after just 1 gateway. Then make a second gateway and chrono out 4 phoenixes (some people like just 3). You'll eventually get a feel for when to expand and build a robo facility, but the goal is 2 base colossus + forge into 3 base double robo colossus -> charge and archons. And of course keep harassing with your phoenix all game. As a general rule, you're safe to expand as soon as you see him start an expansion.
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Hi again.
First I want to thank for the great support in the thread, especially the helpful tips by kcdc & Teoita and other Protoss players. Keep it up!
I didn't play my matches in the new season yet, but last season I was high platinum and I have some questions concerning a game vs a high diamond (ex-master) Protoss.
I started to implement more Stargate play in PvP and used Hero's 2 Gate Stargate Opener in this game. Though I must say I all-inned in PvP for the last few weeks (because it is by far my worst matchup), I like the opener a lot.
First, here is the replay of the game: http://drop.sc/269816
And here are my concerns:
1. I did get contained with those immortals & his gateway army while he expanded. With the Stargate tech I sacrifice my offensive potential, I think. But still, I think, I could have reacted better when I saw his army moving around the map by lifting the immortals & sentrys and attacking the rest of his army with gateway units while securing my natural. That's the major mistake I directly recognized after the match: He delayed my natural expansion for a long time.
2. Another major mistakes in decision making / macro? My PvP macro is pretty bad because my all-in-only attempts in the last weeks. :/
3. What is the "optimal" midgame and lategame architecture for PvP? In PvZ I usually have 6 Gates, 1 Robo, 1 Twilight and 1 Forge (maybe 1 Stargate) off 2 bases where in PvT I have 6 Gates, 1 Robo & 1 Robo Bay, 1 Twilight & 2 Forges off 2 bases. On 3 bases I add 4 another Gates and other Tech like Templar Archives, Dark Shrine, etc.
So I have a clear sense of my buildings in PvZ and PvP. But I don't have any sense of my buildings in PvP.
Are 2 Forges better? When shall I get Double Robo after expanding? And how many Gates are optimal support the 2 base economy? Same question for 3 base btw.
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On November 01 2012 20:55 Bahajinbo wrote:Hi again. First I want to thank for the great support in the thread, especially the helpful tips by kcdc & Teoita and other Protoss players. Keep it up! I didn't play my matches in the new season yet, but last season I was high platinum and I have some questions concerning a game vs a high diamond (ex-master) Protoss. I started to implement more Stargate play in PvP and used Hero's 2 Gate Stargate Opener in this game. Though I must say I all-inned in PvP for the last few weeks (because it is by far my worst matchup), I like the opener a lot. First, here is the replay of the game: http://drop.sc/269816And here are my concerns: 1. I did get contained with those immortals & his gateway army while he expanded. With the Stargate tech I sacrifice my offensive potential, I think. But still, I think, I could have reacted better when I saw his army moving around the map by lifting the immortals & sentrys and attacking the rest of his army with gateway units while securing my natural. That's the major mistake I directly recognized after the match: He delayed my natural expansion for a long time. 2. Another major mistakes in decision making / macro? My PvP macro is pretty bad because my all-in-only attempts in the last weeks. :/ 3. What is the "optimal" midgame and lategame architecture for PvP? In PvZ I usually have 6 Gates, 1 Robo, 1 Twilight and 1 Forge (maybe 1 Stargate) off 2 bases where in PvT I have 6 Gates, 1 Robo & 1 Robo Bay, 1 Twilight & 2 Forges off 2 bases. On 3 bases I add 4 another Gates and other Tech like Templar Archives, Dark Shrine, etc. So I have a clear sense of my buildings in PvZ and PvP. But I don't have any sense of my buildings in PvP. Are 2 Forges better? When shall I get Double Robo after expanding? And how many Gates are optimal support the 2 base economy? Same question for 3 base btw.
Hello Bahajinbo!
Current Master's this season (haven't played in this season yet, however). Sorry I can't see the replay as I'm at work right now, so if you have other questions let me know.
The opener looks good, and it's just a matter of personal preference. I like opening Stargate in the PvP matchup so this is something I've played through quite a bit. My preference is opening with Alejandrisha's "4 Gate is Dead" Opener where you get 2 Stalkers and still able to get 4 Sentries out in case of an aggressive 4 Gate. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302117) This lets me assert map control if I don't see a 4 Gate coming and check to see if he made an early expansion. Unfortunately, PvP is kind of a poker game of builds, so having Stalkers out lets me make sure I don't lose to some blind counter (early expand, etc.). With this build I'm able to get the Stargate building at about 29 Supply. I consider expanding after the 2nd Phoenix, or if I feel unsafe from possible DTs, I'll get the Robo after the 2nd Phoenix, then expand after.
1. The biggest thing about Robo pressure is you have to see it coming with your Phoenixes. Since the Phoenixes are so mobile, you can threaten to either pull probes in their gases, or pick off Sentries (biggest priority as they come attack you). In some cases, they'll just pull back, but if they commit, just make sure you try to pick off their Sentries as that's the main thing that threatens to contain you.
2. Macro is really important, especially if you and your opponent pretty much decide you're going to go in the mid-game. If they choose not to pressure you, the most important things is to scout whether they've taken their gas at their natural. In most cases:
a) if they take both their gases - they'll be pretty passive and won't be attacking you anytime soon, and if they do, they're either not gonna have many Gateways or many units when they push.
b) if they don't take any of their gases - this is usually signs that they're going to be ramping up for a lot of aggression (in most cases a big Blink Stalker heavy composition). You should be able to see this coming with your Phoenixes. In case they aren't moving out, check your natural for Observers, as they're probably following your gas timing to make sure they don't die to midgame pressure.
My order of buildings are: 1 Gate > Stargate > 3 Gate (add 2) > Expand (after 2nd Phoenix) > Robo > Forge > 5 Gate (add 2) > Double Gas > Robo Bay > (any combination of upgrades, upgrades, and colossus count from here)
If I don't feel safe against stuff like DTs, I'll get the Robo first before the Expand.
3) The optimal architecture is based on whether or not your opponent is aggressive in the mid-game. If you see Templar Archives or a DT Shrine with Archons morphing in, you want to add your Gateways as part of your wall-in at your natural. Their composition is going to be Zealot/Archon heavy, so you want stuff like Immortals and Stalkers shooting at them with your Gateways blocking them off.
Midgame architecture should look like: 1 Stargate, 1 Robo Facility and Bay, Forge, 5 Gateways
Lategame architecture for me is simply adding more Robo Facilities (2-3) and a ton of Gateways from there. From here you may to consider getting a DT Shrine to harass expansions if the game goes beyond 3 bases. I'm not a fan of a 2nd Forge since I don't feel Armor does as much in the mid-game as PvT. I'd probably add the 2nd Forge when I'm on Lv3 Weapons upgrades, which is definitely more important that armor in PvP. I would only Double Robo if I either see my opponent doing the same, or as I'm getting my 3rd base. I like having 5 Gateways off 2 Base, then 8-10 Gateways off 3.
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EPT
