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On July 03 2012 13:43 recklessfire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 02:06 Daimai wrote:I have been trying the 3 nexus 8gate parting style lately but it's just going shit for me. I have 4 replays here with typical situations that happen to me every PvT. Does anyone have some tips or perhaps replays of a good protoss doing this build so I could get a reference frame? http://drop.sc/212774Die to pressure before 8 min mark. http://drop.sc/212775Die to counterattack after my push. http://drop.sc/212776Die to counterattack after my push. http://drop.sc/212777Macro game where I somehow piss away my advantage (since my PvT lategame is awful, please point out things wrong or what to improve with the lategame too <3) Thanks, love you all. So, i watched all the games and im going to ignore the lategame on daybreak because all the games you tried to do the same thing basically, which was a 8 gate timing after getting a greedy 3rd. So biggest problem that I see is your investing too much time and resources into the actual attack. If you didnt significantly decrease his army size or bust down his wall with the first wave of the attack, your arent gona do good damage with the attack. If you really wanted to kill this guy, you would have just done an 8 gate off of two bases. After he deflects your first few waves, you keep warping in units and trying to bust him again, when you should realize you need to back off. You have an eco and army advantage in exchange for slowing down your tech/upgrades significantly. Yeah, we've all seen Parting use this build and just trash on terrans with this 8 gate, but his forcefields determine those fights and he will usually fight the army in parts rather than the whole thing. Its pretty difficult to seperate the armies when their defending the ramp in their natural. You need to realize your fighting a terran who is starting to get his medivacs out, so like I said if you dont do significant damage with the initial attack, he will get more medivacs and more time for his units to heal. And because your tech is so behind, you cant just think you can attack anywhere on the map with your army. Unless you have a ton of forcefields on you, your army is at a disadvantage because your in the stage of the game where you need aoe. There's nothing wrong with the actual attack, you just need to play more defensively when the attack isn't going to work, and catch back up in your tech. edit: i want to add that your opening build needs to be more consistent and solid. I think a few games you just did a 1 gate and went straight for your third, which pretty much would be an auto win if the terran randomly attacked. So maybe go up to 3 gates then expand into your third? and you need to try to deny as much scouting around the map as you can, you definitely do not want to terran to scout the third until its at least its nearly complete and by then he really wont be able to react and do a powerful timing upon scouting it. Also, you need to take into consideration the possibility for a cloak banshee expand, so you need to be scouting his front and checking for marauders and if you dont see marauders by at least 8:00(assuming he gasless expanded), then there is something really wrong. edit 2: You're probably aware, but be really careful in how many probes you build while getting that fast third up. If you build too many you can just outright die to one simple attack, so dont skip warp in rounds in favor of getting more probes if he hasnt gotten a quick third like yourself. When your executing the actual 8 gate, you should probably build a tech building/forges while the attack is executed, you cant expect the attack to always work since its not an all in.
Thanks for the tips, hope you can help me a bit more! 
Follow up to this; I played two new replays this morning with the tips you gave me and it still failed pretty hard, on the same premise.
Got two replays here:
http://drop.sc/217391
http://drop.sc/217390
got my tech etc but then just died. admittedly the first game was due to a drop im my base when i didnt have supply to warp in, but i feel like that game went badly from the start anyway.
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PvT has been kicking my ass lately. My macro always slips and I always just get crushed. 2 things that I want to actively work on this week are putting on a little pressure and dealing with drops.
1) How/when do you guys normally start applying some light pressure? I am generally going 1 gate expand, or FFE when I'm feeling bold. I can occasionally pull of some WP harass, and it feels really solid when it works, but impossible when it doesn't. I generally feel like I'm slamming my head against a wall though.
2) As for drops, how much should I pull to deal with drop ships? I generally don't pull enough or pull too much and the main army moves in and kills my expo. Is there a general rule of thumb that anyone uses? Something like 'x stalkers/zealots/dropship'?
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^^
1) I don't, I defend until I get close to max with better upgrades and then I push. I might do zealot/dt drops, but mostly while pushing or defending a push. I think toss has the edge until medivacs, but terran can defend well, and then terran is stronger until lategame, so I want to hold out until then, but definitely try to kill them before super lategame (20ghost, 12cc, battlecruiser, etc)
2) I don't pull, I already have a drop defence squad before the first drops can come. a templar and two stalkers are good if your reactions are fast, or 4zealot/1-2 stalker per anticipated dropship. Focusing the medivacs first is the key. You want them to pay the full price for the drop and not let them pull out early. Observer and pylon spread is really important to deal with drops. Some guys do blink stalker squads to defend. I also like to have a couple more gateways than I need and float a bit for warp-in reserve in pvt, but that's late-mid / lategame.
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1) I also don't bother "pressuring" against Terran. I get 2 bases and defend until I get Storm, then I take a 3rd. The most dangerous part of PvT is immediately after Stim finishes, but before you have Sorm/Collosus (I prefer Storm first, but that's just preference). I find my PvT to be highly polarized into two categories: Games that last less than 10 minutes of which I almost never win, and games that last more than 10 minutes. If I survive the Stim and/or Medivac push(es) I win almost every game. Once I have Storm I start doing HT drops and try to get as many worker kills as I can.
It sounds to me like you're trying to play your PvTs as if they're PvZs. In PvZ the onus is on you to slow the Zerg down. In PvT the onus is on the Terran to slow you down, not the other way around.
2) PvT used to be my weakest matchup, simply because of my poor drop defense. I used to have soooo many games where I would just straight up die to drop harrass. Now I leave 4-5 Stalkers back in my main, while the rest of my army stays at my front. Ideally you want to snipe the medivac before it's able to unload, but if you fail that then do one warp in round to help with the defense. You never want to pull your entire army to deal with a drop (unless doomdrop obviously). Once I get to 3 bases and really get an economy going (and start focusing on gas-intensive units), I throw down cannons at key locations. Also get tons of obs, I usually get 5-6, and put down pylons in key locations to spot for drops.
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Ok thanks for the tips. I get the notion of just sitting back and trying to build up that late game composition. Part of the reason why I want to do some harass is just out of play style. Turtling up on 3 bases and going just gets boring after a while. I just try to get a little proactive with my PvT. Also, I'm only plat, so most terrans at my level aren't really used to having to split forces against toss. But I'll try to sit back more and focus on macro instead of harassment.
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what is the build order for 3g Robo??
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On July 11 2012 06:44 ThirdDegree wrote:
Ok thanks for the tips. I get the notion of just sitting back and trying to build up that late game composition. Part of the reason why I want to do some harass is just out of play style. Turtling up on 3 bases and going just gets boring after a while. I just try to get a little proactive with my PvT. Also, I'm only plat, so most terrans at my level aren't really used to having to split forces against toss. But I'll try to sit back more and focus on macro instead of harassment.
If you just want fun and fast builds, you can try your luck with pucks colossos drop. You can do that while expanding or as a 1-base all-in against gasless FE. Or you can do 4gate warp prism - either as macro after 1gate FE, or just straight up cheese.
If you get the timings down a 4gate drop after FE can be very powerful. It hits before medivacs, and you can often FF their army out of their base* Or dt expand with either hallucination/obs/pylon or warp prism.
The one base colossos drop is probably the easiest to pull off. I can pm you the build order if you're interested.
On July 11 2012 08:04 dokphenom3 wrote:
what is the build order for 3g Robo??
Depends on the matchup. You should be able to find tons of BO's through the search function.
*unless you spawn clockwise on antiga he can just basetrade and kill you... but you said you want fun and not solid :D
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On July 11 2012 06:44 ThirdDegree wrote:
Ok thanks for the tips. I get the notion of just sitting back and trying to build up that late game composition. Part of the reason why I want to do some harass is just out of play style. Turtling up on 3 bases and going just gets boring after a while. I just try to get a little proactive with my PvT. Also, I'm only plat, so most terrans at my level aren't really used to having to split forces against toss. But I'll try to sit back more and focus on macro instead of harassment.
I have a Gold rank, and know what you mean. Sometimes, if I think the Terran is going gasless 1 Rax FE, I will 3 Gate and try and put some pressure on. It can be a little dicey though if they get a bunker down on time - although on maps with large naturals (daybreak) you can sometimes go around the bunker and pick off the CC and scvs (forcing marines out of the bunker).
I usually 12 Gate and try and be aggressive with the first Zealot and Stalker. If the Terran is a little slow, you can pick off the scv building the bunker with your Zealot, and start to really cause some damage when your Stalker arrives. Its probably not viable play at higher levels, but quite a few Terrans assume turtle Toss, don't scout for an expo at around ~5 minutes, and don't expect early aggression. It's nice when they overreact and build a lot of bunkers while I tech or usually take an early 3rd.
More to the point, it can be quite fun to play.
However, here are some threads with detailed builds of aggressive PvT from good players:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344634
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=313652
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=312133
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Hey!
Im asking this for a protoss friend of mine:
Is there a comprehensive pvz guide out there?
Im looking for something as standard and macro oriented as it gets.
Something that starts with a FFE, has a standard midgame, then transitions into a nice lategame.
Any help please?
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Italy12246 Posts
On July 11 2012 16:41 gronnelg wrote:Hey! Im asking this for a protoss friend of mine: Is there a comprehensive pvz guide out there? Im looking for something as standard and macro oriented as it gets. Something that starts with a FFE, has a standard midgame, then transitions into a nice lategame. Any help please?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327905
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Can someone please link me a solid and macro based build for each matchup please.
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how to react vs zergs taking a base @the gold on antiga?
i m high masters toss
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hey =D
im an eu toss who just got promoted to silver and it feels like i feel that i loses all the time without knowing why. I know i have to improve really simple stuff such as don´t being suply-blocked and build stuff all the time, but i feel that i loses games i should have won.
i hope any1 got time to watch theese to replays and say what i should do better =D (sry for my english BTW =P)
http://drop.sc/218681
http://drop.sc/218680
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Can someone link me a guide on transitioning Mid to Late game for PvZ? 100% of my "macro" games loses are blords steamrolling my forces, while my wins are usually toilets or funky compositions like mass air + archons.
Thanks in advance
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I'm relatively new to Starcraft and RTS as a whole. That being said, I'm currently in Bronze league and have 20+ wins after less than a week of play. I've watched a bunch of videos, mostly day[9], but am having some troubles lately in knowing when I should go for a third expansion. Also, I'm scouting right after my first pylon at 9 food, but am often times not finding the spawning pool/double barracks/proxy gate that tells me there is a rush coming. Any help on where I should be looking or how to get better at finding these things would be much appreciated, as well as help on the third expansion. Thanks.
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How does a protoss engage a zerg lategame army? I just played a game vs a zerg and got destroyed because I dont have a good way to engage lategame zerg armies.
Any ideas?
Replay below: http://drop.sc/218763
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@sjugamer:
Not sure how you don't scout a spawning pool unless you are not completely scouting the Zerg base? Smart Zergs will put the pool behind their mineral line so they get that extra bit of time before you see it, and react. So, basically, just make sure you scout the main/creep fully. As for proxies, that's just experience, IMO. Like on Daybreak, your natural, or your third, is a popular location for proxies. However, if you are 9 scouting in PvT and PvP I don't think you need to be that diligent with regards to checking for proxy locations as you should get to their base in time to know something is up (i.e. no gate, no rax etc).
As to the 3rd timing. At 12 minutes is standard, afaik (subject to the flow of the game, of course).
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On July 12 2012 05:00 sju gamer wrote:
I'm relatively new to Starcraft and RTS as a whole. That being said, I'm currently in Bronze league and have 20+ wins after less than a week of play. I've watched a bunch of videos, mostly day[9], but am having some troubles lately in knowing when I should go for a third expansion. Also, I'm scouting right after my first pylon at 9 food, but am often times not finding the spawning pool/double barracks/proxy gate that tells me there is a rush coming. Any help on where I should be looking or how to get better at finding these things would be much appreciated, as well as help on the third expansion. Thanks.
Taking a 3rd will depend on several factors, so if you could be more specific we can probably provide more help. But in general, take a third once your 2 base economy/production is up and going strong. If you are making an effort to scout as much as possible, you may see things that will discourage you from taking that 3rd, i.e. an impending attack or him powering up for a 2-base attack. You just have to realize that investing in an additional expansion costs a significant amount of minerals, and it takes time to make that money back. Theoretically, with all else being equal, he has a bigger army than you during that window of time. Also, you should be able to recognize when taking a third might put you further behind, i.e. you scout that his third is already up and running and has been for a quite a while. In these situations its often best to bulk up your army supply and try to hit a timing window.
As for scouting cheese, this is also something that just gets better with experience. It would be helpful if you noted what builds you were using against each race, because then the feedback could be a little more specialized. But in general, unless you get really unlucky with scouting, you should be able to spot a 6 Pool with a 9 Pylon scout in time to react properly. If you opened Forge, get a cannon in your mineral line and abandon anything you have made on the low-ground. If you opened Gateway, try to wall off the top of your ramp and use Probes to zone the Zerglings out until you get a Zealot into the choke.
Against Terran/Protoss, you should be able to scout their empty base with your Pylon scout. At this point, it isn't vitally important to actually find the structures they've hidden, unless they are inside your base. Check around the fog of war in your base to make sure the Barracks/Gates aren't there, and then focus on your defense. Against proxy Barracks, you will want to constantly Chronoboost your Gateway and go Zealot/Stalker/Stalker. If he doesn't hit you before the ~3:30 mark, he is probably waiting for more Marines and is planning to pull all his SCVs. Keep producing Stalkers and try to keep your scouting Probe near his base to spot for the SCV pull. Once you see the pain-train, wall off the top of your ramp with Pylons. This way, you'll be able to attack units at the top of your ramp with Stalkers without being swarmed by SCVs and focused down. Against proxy Gateways, you will want to add another Gateway yourself and constantly produce Zealots so that you can keep up (relatively) with his Zealot count, while slowly getting your tech/gas for Stalkers. As long as you don't fall waaay behind in Zealot count during skirmishes, once you have 2 Stalkers out the rush is essentially dead. Then you can spend more time looking for the Gateways and unpowering them.
Hope this helped!
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@aZealot and @ZasZ thank you both for the advice. very helpful indeed, and also simple enough for me to understand!
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EPT
