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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
On June 25 2012 04:28 Rainofpain wrote:
How do I play PvZ? I would like to do some kind of 1 base opener to get some agression going because I hate just letting the zerg take a 3rd. I am diamond lvl and it seems like all pvz is even at the pro level is the protoss getting lucky and winning with an all in.
There's the ol' 3-gate expand that will let you pressure early game. I'd say PvZ is quite balanced really, but both races has to play quite reactive.
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How do you know when to take an expansion in PvP? If I try to take an early expansion, my opponent usually attacks me 1½ minute after, in a battle I far too often loose.
This has led me to only take expansions after my opponent has thrown down his, which obviously isn't perfect. Thanks in advance.
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Italy12246 Posts
On June 25 2012 06:19 Arctyrus wrote:
How do you know when to take an expansion in PvP? If I try to take an early expansion, my opponent usually attacks me 1½ minute after, in a battle I far too often loose.
This has led me to only take expansions after my opponent has thrown down his, which obviously isn't perfect. Thanks in advance.
That's a fairly complex question actually. This is what i tend to follow:
1) I am playing in my opponent's face, and he's forced to play really defensively. If he makes lots of sentries he can't attack me for a while since his tech will be quite delayed. Lately i have been doing gateway pressure (think 3gate aggression) while expanding behind it, forcing my opponent to be defensive and delaying his eventual push, and it's working out quite ok actually.
2) My opponent is forced to stay in his base, because my army is more mobile or i have some kind of harass potential, wether it's phoenix expand, dt expand or blink expand.
3) My army is stronger than anything he can have at that timing, say immortal expand with a fairly fast nexus (2gate robo with a 6ish minute nexus when you rule out 4gate), or you have the faster colossus in a robo bay mirror game.
4) Your opponent just has no way to scout and react to your expansion because you have map control. Lots of people these days expand off a 3stalker rush after the 3 stalkers. This kinda ties 3 and 1 together.
5) This is the dumb way: just take a blind risk and hope your opponent doesn't punish you for it. I see lots of expand builds straight into colossus without even making sure wether im 1basing or not that can put you far behind if you don't punish it.
I am not completely sure this is reliable, my level is fairly low (low master/diamond) so eh. Hope it helps regardless 
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On June 25 2012 06:55 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 06:19 Arctyrus wrote:
How do you know when to take an expansion in PvP? If I try to take an early expansion, my opponent usually attacks me 1½ minute after, in a battle I far too often loose.
This has led me to only take expansions after my opponent has thrown down his, which obviously isn't perfect. Thanks in advance. + Show Spoiler + That's a fairly complex question actually. This is what i tend to follow: 1) I am playing in my opponent's face, and he's forced to play really defensively. If he makes lots of sentries he can't attack me for a while since his tech will be quite delayed. Lately i have been doing gateway pressure (think 3gate aggression) while expanding behind it, forcing my opponent to be defensive and delaying his eventual push, and it's working out quite ok actually. 2) My opponent is forced to stay in his base, because my army is more mobile or i have some kind of harass potential, wether it's phoenix expand, dt expand or blink expand. 3) My army is stronger than anything he can have at that timing, say immortal expand with a fairly fast nexus (2gate robo with a 6ish minute nexus when you rule out 4gate), or you have the faster colossus in a robo bay mirror game. 4) Your opponent just has no way to scout and react to your expansion because you have map control. Lots of people these days expand off a 3stalker rush after the 3 stalkers. This kinda ties 3 and 1 together. 5) This is the dumb way: just take a blind risk and hope your opponent doesn't punish you for it. I see lots of expand builds straight into colossus without even making sure wether im 1basing or not that can put you far behind if you don't punish it. I am not completely sure this is reliable, my level is fairly low (low master/diamond) so eh. Hope it helps regardless
Thanks for the quick answer, and it's quite a helpfull response. In your post, you mention a phoenix expand, I was under the impression that a quick phoenix build was rather all-in?
I'm a gold player and still have a lot to learn, so I'd like to find one versatile build to focus on, and then improve from there. Any recommendations? - I've been looking in to robo/twillight or perhaps a phoenix build if they're great.
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Italy12246 Posts
On June 25 2012 07:24 Arctyrus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 06:55 Teoita wrote:On June 25 2012 06:19 Arctyrus wrote:
How do you know when to take an expansion in PvP? If I try to take an early expansion, my opponent usually attacks me 1½ minute after, in a battle I far too often loose.
This has led me to only take expansions after my opponent has thrown down his, which obviously isn't perfect. Thanks in advance. + Show Spoiler + That's a fairly complex question actually. This is what i tend to follow: 1) I am playing in my opponent's face, and he's forced to play really defensively. If he makes lots of sentries he can't attack me for a while since his tech will be quite delayed. Lately i have been doing gateway pressure (think 3gate aggression) while expanding behind it, forcing my opponent to be defensive and delaying his eventual push, and it's working out quite ok actually. 2) My opponent is forced to stay in his base, because my army is more mobile or i have some kind of harass potential, wether it's phoenix expand, dt expand or blink expand. 3) My army is stronger than anything he can have at that timing, say immortal expand with a fairly fast nexus (2gate robo with a 6ish minute nexus when you rule out 4gate), or you have the faster colossus in a robo bay mirror game. 4) Your opponent just has no way to scout and react to your expansion because you have map control. Lots of people these days expand off a 3stalker rush after the 3 stalkers. This kinda ties 3 and 1 together. 5) This is the dumb way: just take a blind risk and hope your opponent doesn't punish you for it. I see lots of expand builds straight into colossus without even making sure wether im 1basing or not that can put you far behind if you don't punish it. I am not completely sure this is reliable, my level is fairly low (low master/diamond) so eh. Hope it helps regardless Thanks for the quick answer, and it's quite a helpfull response. In your post, you mention a phoenix expand, I was under the impression that a quick phoenix build was rather all-in? I'm a gold player and still have a lot to learn, so I'd like to find one versatile build to focus on, and then improve from there. Any recommendations? - I've been looking in to robo/twillight or perhaps a phoenix build if they're great.
Generally phoenix builds tend to expand after getting a robo for immortals as the opponent is very likely to respond with blink stalkers, so they are quite 1basy. A faster expand is usually done when you know your opponent won't be aggressive for a while, for example if you scout some kind of fast expand. I am no expert on pvp phoenix though, check Geiko's thread for more info.
As a starting build, if you want a good 1base allin for pvp just go 1base colossus, if you want to play macro games go immortal expand instead since it's a lot easier to do than phoenix or robo/blink. The way i usually do it is i open with this build http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302117 (which is really, really mechanically demanding), get a fast obs, nexus and then immortals off of like 4-6 gateway units when i can rule out a 4gate. Alej also has videos of him holding off 1base timings on his youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/alejsc2
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I'm now a Silver player on NA and I don't have a lot of time at all to play SC2 anymore, but I'd still like to stay in touch with the game because it's something I love. I've been up to low Platinum a few seasons ago but that was before my wife gave birth to our daughter, who is 7 weeks old  Being a father means maybe 2-3 sessions a week max and maybe only an hour or two to play.
Firstly; is this enough time do make ANY progress at SC2 or do you think I should just play and have fun and linger in Silver League?
If not; I'm out of touch completely with the match ups and I'm getting rolled by everything. Before I was going zealot/archon/high temp for PvP and PvT (and rushing 3/3/3 with 2-3 forges) and having great success, and I'd go fast Void Ray into zealot/archon for PvZ. I know it's a riskier route than going robo, but I just enjoyed doing something a little less expected. Is it something I can do anymore or should I switch over to another opening?
I need something simple - preferably one build which only needs slight adjustments for all match ups. And by build I mean opening of course.
Also; is it viable to open with 1 base on the ladder or should I be looking to forge fast expand whenever I can? I used to find I'd get rolled by early pressure if I didn't get at least a basic army on 1 base before I expanded. Maybe I've been watching too many pro matches where they always fast expand.
And lastly... I've heard people talk about hot-keying locations on the map. Can someone explain how this works to a n00b who still uses mouse clicks for about half the actions he does? How do you hotkey an area? In general I'd be interested to hear about hotkey usage. Right now I use control group 1 for my main army, 5 for my secondary army (high temps, who I set to follow a unit in my main army). 2 is all my Nexuses, 3 is my robo's, 4 is my stargates if I use them. I use standard hotkeys, w for warpgates, and for building I don't use hotkeys for every unit because I'm still learning. Zealots, stalkers, sentries I do hotkeys without thinking now but with high temps, dark temps or anything from the stargate I end up clicking the icons still... I don't want to go ahead and practice hotkeys it there is a better hotkey set-up than the default which I should perhaps transition into instead.
My goal would be to get back to Platinum league. I think considering the time I have free that's something achievable. Any suggestions much appreciated.
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Hey guys. I need some serious help. I'm a diamond league brotoss. I'm doing well pvz and doing great in pvt. But, then we come to the terrible PVP. I got like 10% winrate in pvp, maybe less. I think I know the reason tho. I worked my way from bronze to Dia with defending 4 gates, or using 4 gate myself. I felt like, those leagues was only about 4 gate or other badass all-ins. But now, in dia it just won't work. And I have totally NO experience with PVP macro game :O. And that kinda sucks.. I guess. To make it into master I'm pretty sure PVP is the thing I need to work on. I can't really keep leaving game when I meet another bro. Any pro thread or guide out there in the blue that could bless me with some sick PVP tips? Thanks.
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On June 25 2012 08:13 Ewarnen wrote:
Hey guys. I need some serious help. I'm a diamond league brotoss. I'm doing well pvz and doing great in pvt. But, then we come to the terrible PVP. I got like 10% winrate in pvp, maybe less. I think I know the reason tho. I worked my way from bronze to Dia with defending 4 gates, or using 4 gate myself. I felt like, those leagues was only about 4 gate or other badass all-ins. But now, in dia it just won't work. And I have totally NO experience with PVP macro game :O. And that kinda sucks.. I guess. To make it into master I'm pretty sure PVP is the thing I need to work on. I can't really keep leaving game when I meet another bro. Any pro thread or guide out there in the blue that could bless me with some sick PVP tips? Thanks.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=284255
PvP takes a lot of experience to know how to make reads and correct decisions, and just knowing what your build is capable of. Well, that's actually just general to any Mirror match. Either way, I recommend TC/Robo. It's safe, versatile, and gives you a lot of options. Most players in your league who try to expand you will probably kill outright.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=249772
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302117
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I am looking for some replays/ vods/guides on the squirtle PvT build. It's a 2 base all in with colosses, blink stalkers and +2 +2. I watched a lot of pros copying that strategy but can't find those vods anymore.
Would appreciate some links.
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can anyone please link me to the PVZ immortal sentry-based all in used frequently on korean ladders? i can't seem to find it with the search function
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Anyone got a build order for Colossus all-in in PvP? I have tried the one PvT colossus pressure/all-in but it doesn't work that great in PvP. I got the Colossus out to late, I try to make it with 2 colossus or 3 but then it feels to late and I lose the battle.
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On June 25 2012 20:04 MaNderjao wrote:
Anyone got a build order for Colossus all-in in PvP? I have tried the one PvT colossus pressure/all-in but it doesn't work that great in PvP. I got the Colossus out to late, I try to make it with 2 colossus or 3 but then it feels to late and I lose the battle.
It's just a 1 gate robo, differing in that you're dumping all of your gas into the bay/colossus. The more corners you cut -- removing obs/immortals/sentries/stalkers/opening 1g robo, the faster they come out, the sooner you're able to hit. Two colossus is the magic number. Add on a fourth gateway at some point before attacking for additional reinforcements since you're committing.
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On June 25 2012 20:50 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 20:04 MaNderjao wrote:
Anyone got a build order for Colossus all-in in PvP? I have tried the one PvT colossus pressure/all-in but it doesn't work that great in PvP. I got the Colossus out to late, I try to make it with 2 colossus or 3 but then it feels to late and I lose the battle. It's just a 1 gate robo, differing in that you're dumping all of your gas into the bay/colossus. The more corners you cut -- removing obs/immortals/sentries/stalkers/opening 1g robo, the faster they come out, the sooner you're able to hit. Two colossus is the magic number. Add on a fourth gateway at some point before attacking for additional reinforcements since you're committing.
Okey thanks! When should this attack be timed, I tried one time against a bot and got 2 colossus out at the enemys base around the 10.00-10.10 minute mark. Thats the timing or can I get it out much earlier? :D
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On June 25 2012 21:09 MaNderjao wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 20:50 Tyrant0 wrote:On June 25 2012 20:04 MaNderjao wrote:
Anyone got a build order for Colossus all-in in PvP? I have tried the one PvT colossus pressure/all-in but it doesn't work that great in PvP. I got the Colossus out to late, I try to make it with 2 colossus or 3 but then it feels to late and I lose the battle. It's just a 1 gate robo, differing in that you're dumping all of your gas into the bay/colossus. The more corners you cut -- removing obs/immortals/sentries/stalkers/opening 1g robo, the faster they come out, the sooner you're able to hit. Two colossus is the magic number. Add on a fourth gateway as you before attacking for additional reinforcements since you're committing. Okey thanks! When should this attack be timed, I tried one time against a bot and got 2 colossus out at the enemys base around the 10.00-10.10 minute mark. Thats the timing or can I get it out much earlier? :D
PvP is a match-up of decisions/reads, and like I said, it varies on how many corners you're willing to cut. Your second colossus should arrive at his natural at around 9:30ish depending on walk distance. If you're confident you won't be four gated, you can start the observer immediately/skip 2nd sentry. You can go bay before observer and shave a few seconds on the time. The fastest you can hit without a proxy is 8:50-9:00 and the amount of risks taken/units cut aren't stable in PvP.
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Hello everyone in the community and i am relative new at posting anything on forums. I do read them alot but have been struggling really bad against Zerg when they 3 hatch expand against my FFE. I find it difficult to apply any pressure effectively and hard to establish a third and they seem to be able to scout everything so i am sort of in a slump. Diamond toss i do have replays upon request. Thanks ahead of time to anyone who takes the time to read this =)
PoWMiA
US Army Vet OEF
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On June 26 2012 00:35 Bloodspartan wrote:
Hello everyone in the community and i am relative new at posting anything on forums. I do read them alot but have been struggling really bad against Zerg when they 3 hatch expand against my FFE. I find it difficult to apply any pressure effectively and hard to establish a third and they seem to be able to scout everything so i am sort of in a slump. Diamond toss i do have replays upon request. Thanks ahead of time to anyone who takes the time to read this =)
PoWMiA
US Army Vet OEF
Definitely need replays.
It's hard to apply decent early pressure with a FFE as it just takes so long before you have any units. On the other hand, the zerg isn't producing units either while establishing his third and droning up. Try taking your third fairly early, or go for a quick 6-7 gate all-in off two bases. Without replays it's hard to give any more specific advice.
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I was wondering what we are supposed to do against a zerg that blocks our natural with a hatchery, makes zerglings and a queen and harasses while they double expand into muta ling. It seems unbeatable.
I went for ffe on cloud kingdom, so had my first pylon and forge at natural, zerg comes along and builds a hatchery, I throw down a cannon in range and also wall off my main with cannons and pylons when I see zerg making lings. it's 7:30 mins when I manage to stop the harassment and by this time zerg was nearly on 3 bases. I go for 4 gate 2 robos off 1 base and start pumping imortals and sentries. I reach his base, take down his natural and then mutas swarm in.
So my question is, is there a default counter to such a tactic?
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On June 26 2012 03:05 MDJuggernaut wrote:
I was wondering what we are supposed to do against a zerg that blocks our natural with a hatchery, makes zerglings and a queen and harasses while they double expand into muta ling. It seems unbeatable.
I went for ffe on cloud kingdom, so had my first pylon and forge at natural, zerg comes along and builds a hatchery, I throw down a cannon in range and also wall off my main with cannons and pylons when I see zerg making lings. it's 7:30 mins when I manage to stop the harassment and by this time zerg was nearly on 3 bases. I go for 4 gate 2 robos off 1 base and start pumping imortals and sentries. I reach his base, take down his natural and then mutas swarm in.
So my question is, is there a default counter to such a tactic?
bring down about 4 probes immediately and attack the hatchery. Don't forget to build the cannon as well. When the hatchery finishes, it should be in red health and the cannon will finish it off. If he tries to use the larvae to make units, you will need the cannon to focus down the eggs, you should be able to get at least one egg,. If he chooses to cancel the hatch, dont freak out, he delayed his own hatchery to force you to bring down 4 probes, you are still pretty ok economically, just place down your nexus as soon as you can. You will probably have a full wall at that point.
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EPT
