EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 269
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
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-Kira
352 Posts
On June 24 2012 01:31 Salivanth wrote: In PvP, how should I respond to a cannon rush on Cloud Kingdom, when the first pylon + cannon is located behind the mineral lines of my third? It's too far to run probes down there, it seems, and he can warp stuff in on the high-ground from that low pylon. Kill anything that is on high ground and wall your ramp with 3 pylons. At the same time either rush to stalkers or forge and cannon by your ramp. It requires you to scout it early tho, so if it's too late you just have to buy time and defend your nexus with either forge or stalkers. | ||
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Lforice
3 Posts
Things to focus on? Custom maps that are made for helping players like me macro better under enemy pressure? Generic openings from enemy races and general responses? Thanks | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On June 23 2012 22:07 stardin wrote: Hi im having a lot of trouble concerning control groups. Having a hard time deciding how to use my army - 1 is usually for zealots, 2 for stalkers and sentries, and 3 for templars. Now i dont know where to put colossus... Adding a 4th group i feel will make it too much of a mess, and adding it to 1 with the zealots will create a problem that i cannot spread my zealots easily since the colossus will move with them, and i dont want the colossus to go with the melee units obviously. Adding it to the stalkers and the sentries creates a problem when targeting vikings, since the colossus will a move to the location of the vikings which is not what i want it to do in battles. Adding it to the templars will create another problem, which is the spreading of templars vs ghosts and the templar's slow mobility and in general as a protoss you would want i presume to position the templars and colossus in different locations. Any ideas? Thanks. Really it's kinda a personal thing. But honestly I don't think you need to have all your units in different control groups; realistically you shouldn't have to do that. And you really need the other control groups for easy access to your production. You can just double click on a unit to select all of that type if you want to use individual unit types within an army and just select parts of your army as a whole for splitting. I put my main army on 1 (so basically thats Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, Immortals). Observers go on 2 and 3 until I need them for something else like Colossi, HTs, DTs, Warp Prism, etc. Anything that needs microing separately from my main army. I link every Nexus onto 4 and add all my gates to 5 (for easy of converting to warpgate) with 6 being robotics facility. Beyond that I've got 7 onwards for whatever other production or tech I want to add to control groups for ease of access. | ||
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The Eskimo
United States21 Posts
They come around and just go after probes, and often i don't have enough stalkers to stop it. | ||
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TheExodus
293 Posts
On June 24 2012 03:07 The Eskimo wrote: i generally 1G FE every match up but I've been losing to hellions. They come around and just go after probes, and often i don't have enough stalkers to stop it. 1G FE can be done in a ton of ways, which one do you do? If we look at MCs your scouting poke should tell you that you need to drop your robo before resuming probe production, which will let you plant an immortal in your mineral line if you want. If you don't have immortals out yet, just plant your stalkers in the mineral line so you don't have to chase the buggers. | ||
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The Eskimo
United States21 Posts
On June 24 2012 03:11 TheExodus wrote: 1G FE can be done in a ton of ways, which one do you do? If we look at MCs your scouting poke should tell you that you need to drop your robo before resuming probe production, which will let you plant an immortal in your mineral line if you want. If you don't have immortals out yet, just plant your stalkers in the mineral line so you don't have to chase the buggers. I usually 17 nexus after a 13 gateway into core gas tripple gateway masters protoss, i might have to go gas first.. | ||
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TheExodus
293 Posts
On June 24 2012 03:22 The Eskimo wrote: I usually 17 nexus after a 13 gateway into core gas tripple gateway masters protoss, i might have to go gas first.. Change the fourth gate to a robo, get more gas, poke to check for a factory opening while building an observer, and if needed chrono out two immortals. Or well, that sounds about right to me, but I haven't tried it  | ||
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The Eskimo
United States21 Posts
On June 24 2012 03:58 TheExodus wrote: Change the fourth gate to a robo, get more gas, poke to check for a factory opening while building an observer, and if needed chrono out two immortals. Or well, that sounds about right to me, but I haven't tried it hellions usually come out the time of my first stalker | ||
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TheExodus
293 Posts
On June 24 2012 04:05 The Eskimo wrote: hellions usually come out the time of my first stalker Can you post a replay? Edit: after experimenting a bit it seems the only thing you can really do is get gas earlier and cannon your mineral lines with 2 cannons each, which is of course sucks major. I say take the losses against early hellions or switch to a safer opening. | ||
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The Eskimo
United States21 Posts
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Bergys
Sweden337 Posts
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.Enigma
United Kingdom116 Posts
Ideally this would be a responsive build order which is well refined and proven to work. I'm sure a lot of people have difficulty with the same builds so hopefully this can also help others. PvP I scout after cyber in this matchup. 1) Mineral line cannon rush. These games happen in around 1 in 5 PvPs and make the matchup completely unbearable. Due to the late scout my probe will never have seen their base. My usual response is to put ~8 probes on the pylons (as many as the surface area will allow), cancel my cyber, pull probes off gas, and start a zealot. I have never defended this cheese, and it has cost me dozens of frustrating losses. If you are unable to stop the 2-3 pylons starting, can the game be won under any circumstances? Do I have to resort to following my opponents 'scouting' probe with a probe of my own as soon as it enters my base? (I have never seen this happen in a pro game so surely this can't be the case?) I've tried completely ignoring the cannons and starting a nexus elsewhere, but haven't had any success with this either. 2) Proxy 2gate My scouting pattern checks nearby proxy locations quite thoroughly so I can usually spot this before it's too late. My preferred response is to start a forge and attempt to delay the first zealots until a cannon finishes. However, I'm having trouble with the exact build which I should follow assuming I survive past this point with minimal probe loss. At this point I feel that I should be ahead but I find I will often lose when my opponent either techs quickly or cannon rushes me. My questions are: For how long do I cut probes? How many zealots should I make? (is 1 enough or too risky?) How quickly should I take gas/resume mining gas and start a cyber? Finally, is the forge response the best or should I be trying to defend with 2 gates of my own, even if the 2nd is very late? PvT I scout at 13 in this matchup 1) 2/3 rax marine-scv all in I faced this so often at one point that every time I scouted a gasless terran who hadn't walled in I assumed it was coming. Thankfully I'm seeing it less often now, but when it comes I usually lose. Should I be making a zealot every time I'm don't scout a low-ground CC or is this too extreme? Once I do see it coming, what is the best response: Is a 2nd gate or 2nd gas necessary? Should I be using any chrono on warpgate, or all of it on stalker production? Should I continue with probe production since I will be pulling all of them at some point anyway? Is it sensible to make an extra pylon to power the gateway, even if I am well below my supply cap? If anyone has a replay which they feel shows an effective defense of any of these builds then it would be great to see them! Thanks | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On June 24 2012 04:15 TheExodus wrote: Can you post a replay? Edit: after experimenting a bit it seems the only thing you can really do is get gas earlier and cannon your mineral lines with 2 cannons each, which is of course sucks major. I say take the losses against early hellions or switch to a safer opening. I'd advise a safer opening. Your build is fine against a 1rax FE but if u scout gas, it makes things a little tricky. Going for a more standard 1gate FE will make it easier to defend the helions. They can still do a lot of damage though, so u have to be spot on with your control. There's also a few variations on helion builds so that can be tricky sometimes. The 3 helion 8 marine drop is one of the more scary ones, and it can transition into just a normal expand but also into a 1/1/1 all in. Of course, there's even the good ol' reactor helion expand that can be very good if u r unprepared (Ganzi pretty much killed me with this build cos my poor control) | ||
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MDJuggernaut
United Kingdom16 Posts
1) Mineral line cannon rush. These games happen in around 1 in 5 PvPs and make the matchup completely unbearable. Due to the late scout my probe will never have seen their base. My usual response is to put ~8 probes on the pylons (as many as the surface area will allow), cancel my cyber, pull probes off gas, and start a zealot. I have never defended this cheese, and it has cost me dozens of frustrating losses. If you are unable to stop the 2-3 pylons starting, can the game be won under any circumstances? Do I have to resort to following my opponents 'scouting' probe with a probe of my own as soon as it enters my base? (I have never seen this happen in a pro game so surely this can't be the case?) I've tried completely ignoring the cannons and starting a nexus elsewhere, but haven't had any success with this either. 2) Proxy 2gate My scouting pattern checks nearby proxy locations quite thoroughly so I can usually spot this before it's too late. My preferred response is to start a forge and attempt to delay the first zealots until a cannon finishes. However, I'm having trouble with the exact build which I should follow assuming I survive past this point with minimal probe loss. At this point I feel that I should be ahead but I find I will often lose when my opponent either techs quickly or cannon rushes me. My questions are: For how long do I cut probes? How many zealots should I make? (is 1 enough or too risky?) How quickly should I take gas/resume mining gas and start a cyber? Finally, is the forge response the best or should I be trying to defend with 2 gates of my own, even if the 2nd is very late? On 2 spawn maps scout after your pylon in PvP games, the benefits outweigh the cost. Put your first pylon near your ramp and send your scout, put your gateway at the top of the ramp. When your probe gets to the other players base, if there are no structures hide your probe in their base, throw down another gateway at the top of your ramp (leaving a 1 hex gap) and chrono out zealots to plug the gap. Put down a forge asap and a cannon at the top of your ramp also, with your hidden proxy probe you can start to cannon rush him. This works for both proxy gates and pylon rushes. If you do find yourself in a situation where you are being cannon rushed though, chase the probe with 2 of your probes and attack the cannons not the pylons. pylons have a total of 600 hp and cannons have only 200 hp including shields. put 4-5 probes on each and they wont have time to warp in. You will not lose to a cannon rush ever again. 1) 2/3 rax marine-scv all in I faced this so often at one point that every time I scouted a gasless terran who hadn't walled in I assumed it was coming. Thankfully I'm seeing it less often now, but when it comes I usually lose. Should I be making a zealot every time I'm don't scout a low-ground CC or is this too extreme? Once I do see it coming, what is the best response: Is a 2nd gate or 2nd gas necessary? Should I be using any chrono on warpgate, or all of it on stalker production? Should I continue with probe production since I will be pulling all of them at some point anyway? Is it sensible to make an extra pylon to power the gateway, even if I am well below my supply cap? If anyone has a replay which they feel shows an effective defense of any of these builds then it would be great to see them! Thanks If you see no gas and no expansion, start chronoing sentries and zealots, sit at your ramp and let a few in at a time and kill them. You need a lot of sentries for this type of push. Use all chronos on units. This is what I do, everyone has their own style of play. I hope others can add to this and expand on your questions also. | ||
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ZeratuLsc2
Canada426 Posts
1. Get fast robo and pump out 4-5 immortals with 7-8 sentries and a mix of stalkers and zealots 2. Oppnent attacks with roaches. 3. Throw down pefect forcefields, and hold 4. 45 seconds later, opponent attacks with roaches 5. Throw down perfect forcefields, and hold 6. 45 seconds later, opponent attacks with roaches 7. Throw down perfect forcefields, and hold 8. 45 seconds later, oppnent attacks with roaches 9. Miss 1-2 forcefields 10. Lose game instantly 11. Watch replay, see opponent expanded twice while attacking repeatedly | ||
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-Kira
352 Posts
On June 24 2012 07:52 Hellfury wrote: Typical PvZ: 1. Get fast robo and pump out 4-5 immortals with 7-8 sentries and a mix of stalkers and zealots 2. Oppnent attacks with roaches. 3. Throw down pefect forcefields, and hold 4. 45 seconds later, opponent attacks with roaches 5. Throw down perfect forcefields, and hold 6. 45 seconds later, opponent attacks with roaches 7. Throw down perfect forcefields, and hold 8. 45 seconds later, oppnent attacks with roaches 9. Miss 1-2 forcefields 10. Lose game instantly 11. Watch replay, see opponent expanded twice while attacking repeatedly Make more cannons and go fast colossus instead of immortals. You'll thank me later. | ||
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Lforice
3 Posts
On June 24 2012 02:50 Lightspeaker wrote: Really it's kinda a personal thing. But honestly I don't think you need to have all your units in different control groups; realistically you shouldn't have to do that. And you really need the other control groups for easy access to your production. You can just double click on a unit to select all of that type if you want to use individual unit types within an army and just select parts of your army as a whole for splitting. I put my main army on 1 (so basically thats Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries, Immortals). Observers go on 2 and 3 until I need them for something else like Colossi, HTs, DTs, Warp Prism, etc. Anything that needs microing separately from my main army. I link every Nexus onto 4 and add all my gates to 5 (for easy of converting to warpgate) with 6 being robotics facility. Beyond that I've got 7 onwards for whatever other production or tech I want to add to control groups for ease of access. I have trouble switching my nexus hotkey from 3 to 4, how would you suggest I change it? | ||
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Rainofpain
United States125 Posts
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On June 24 2012 06:12 The Eskimo wrote: http://drop.sc/203466 You had a significant delay between your zealot and your stalker. Queue the stalker up before the Zealot finishes. It should have been started 15 seconds earlier, but you decided a third gate needed to go down before the stalker. Who cares? You aren't using the third gate for anything at that point, and warpgate had 70 seconds left to research when the hellions were in your main. Don't screw around with building units. I don't like that you stuck to just 1 zealot 1 stalker. In fact, your warp gate is so late in this game that you probably need to make 1-2 more units out of each gate while you wait for the research to finish. Maybe 3 gateways is wrong for this point in time for the build, and you should add the third one when warp gate is getting closer to finishing. You have basically one stalker on defense for the majority of the harassment, since a zealot doesn't really do anything to help this harassment (maybe one or two hits here or there, but that's about it). If you had more stalkers, you could have blocked your ramp or put them in your mineral lines. If you had sentries, you could have FFed a ramp and kept them out while waiting for more units/while pulling probes to safety. Or maybe FFed to trap the hellions or at least had that as a threat to keep them away from behind the mineral lines. I don't like your probe pull at all when the hellion gets to your min mineral line. You stacked them up to get slaughtered with that attack through the mineral patches where they bottlenecked. I would have prefered you pulling your probes towards your natural with that position. Generally speaking, this is what I do to deal with hellion harassment: 1. Have enough units to defend one base's worth of minerals. Maybe it's stalkers, maybe it's an immortal, but it has to be something. 2. Put your probes in the base with defense. Usually this means pulling them to the main, but sometimes the reverse--like when your main gets hellion dropped. 3. Get more units and retake my other base's resources when I have the manpower to bully the hellions out. I hope this was helpful to you. | ||
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