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Mass stalkers DOES work in PvZ. I've seen countless games in which top Korean players including oGsMC defeated top level Zerg players. However, you need BLINK and good MICRO for this strategy to work. You need to make sure that you are blinking back weakened stalkers and that all stalkers are engaging the enemy army.
In PvP, in the late game, you cannot beat robo units with mass stalkers. Immortals and colossi just destroy mass stalkers.
In PvT, mmm just kills stalkers. It's worse than in PvP.
I suggest you more colossi oriented builds. It's much easier to macro and micro. You don't need to worry about force fields and high Templars just yet, IMO, because they will just take away from your precious APM, which will increase very quickly soon in the future.
I wish you the best of luck!!  It's very nice to see that you're trying very hard to improve.
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On August 04 2011 12:43 GigaFlop wrote:
Just to give you another bit of information... I'm in bronze league, and actually have hit a max of 400~425 APM, for a period of one or two seconds, while spamming Infested Terrans. That may seem like a gigantic deal, but it isnt. Not all of those actions were useful actions, which is one thing that is used for APM inflation.
They patched it recently so infested terrans doesn't count to APM. Lmao..
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On August 04 2011 09:40 GigaFlop wrote:
Hm, mass pure stalkers? Let me get mass +3 immortals, and then we'll talk in the middle of the map.
I know making only one unit can be fun, but you aren't in a monobattle. Use that freedom to make a better overall army! I don't go for JUST roaches... I get Infestors and/or Mutas as well. Units like Mutas and Marines get more effective when in larger numbers, afaik. Stalkers do too, however they have limitations. Colossus will wreck you. So will mass roaches + infestors, along with... Marauders.
That's what happened on Typhon (in a way ofc not only immortals and not +3 but hey...). There were 11 immortals there (though only with 1 shield 1 attack) which roflstomped the only stalker army. And yes, there were many stalkers actually not doing anything, but move them in and the immortals not doing anything start attacking. It's not like his opponent had all his units attacking.
I guess the game on Antiga was winable with better micro and reinforcing. But the game on Typhon? There probably was some way to win it at some point (spending minerals using the warpgates better i.e. not letting them idle, after all the opponent produced from 2 gateways(!) and one robotics the whole game) but after the point when he attacked I don't think he could've saved that with what was available.
@OP I guess using more than one unit would really help and there are enough good threads in here to show you what these units are. Pick one.
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On August 04 2011 13:05 DarKcS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 12:43 GigaFlop wrote:
Just to give you another bit of information... I'm in bronze league, and actually have hit a max of 400~425 APM, for a period of one or two seconds, while spamming Infested Terrans. That may seem like a gigantic deal, but it isnt. Not all of those actions were useful actions, which is one thing that is used for APM inflation.
They patched it recently so infested terrans doesn't count to APM. Lmao..
I was creating a bunch of IT's is what I meant by that.. Unless you mean that, too?
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Other people have said most of what I would say
If you're having problems with "awful micro," then just get blink, look at your stalkers and assess the situation really fast:
"do I have a decent concave where all my stalkers are firing?" if so: go back and macro, if not:
"am I going to cream him if I leave my army as is?" if so: go back and macro, but if not:
"can I just blink my entire stalker force into his and crush him?" if yes: do so, and go back and macro, if not:
"does his army composition vastly overpower mine?" if so: run, if not:
"is it just a little bit stronger?" if yes: blink the weaker stalkers back, if you keep health bars on permanently, you can easily pick out the weaker stalkers and blink them back, if not: run, get some different units in the mix.
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I am incredibly dubious on the claims that macro alone can get you to diamond. The person that did the test only proved two things. He was way better at micro than his opponents, allowing him to win all PvP. It also showed how mass stalker was potent against Zerg, because Plat zergs and lower certainly do not know how to deal with that composition (It is the only thing Korean Protosses make). If the person testing this "macro only" thing wanted a fair test, he shouldn't have used the Stalker. In PvZ, his play could have been seen as standard, which obviously result in free wins against a lower skilled player. He probably won most of his PvPs in the first 7 minutes with superior micro and his opponent having a fail build order. He probably lost quite a lot of his PvTs.
If he really wanted to show the power of macro, he should have chosen a unit such as the marine, or the hydralisk, something that is easily countered. Why? Because, it would show, that with good macro, marines can beat Colossus, can beat storm, can beat banelings, can beat infestors. Using marines only would yield better results.
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On August 04 2011 23:17 Micket wrote:
I am incredibly dubious on the claims that macro alone can get you to diamond. The person that did the test only proved two things. He was way better at micro than his opponents, allowing him to win all PvP. It also showed how mass stalker was potent against Zerg, because Plat zergs and lower certainly do not know how to deal with that composition (It is the only thing Korean Protosses make). If the person testing this "macro only" thing wanted a fair test, he shouldn't have used the Stalker. In PvZ, his play could have been seen as standard, which obviously result in free wins against a lower skilled player. He probably won most of his PvPs in the first 7 minutes with superior micro and his opponent having a fail build order. He probably lost quite a lot of his PvTs.
If he really wanted to show the power of macro, he should have chosen a unit such as the marine, or the hydralisk, something that is easily countered. Why? Because, it would show, that with good macro, marines can beat Colossus, can beat storm, can beat banelings, can beat infestors. Using marines only would yield better results.
I agree. I was able to win a game once by having two reactored raxes with a full queue for a full game, versus another T who eventually got BCs and thors and siege tanks. However, that was in practice league. Terrible macro on my part :D
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You can win with only blink stalkers if you have perfect control. However, you obviously don't have perfect control, and you should focus on a strategy that doesn't require it. Honestly you should be going for the standard colossus-gateway ball until you really do have good macro. I don't want you to never be over 500 minerals - I want you to *strive* for that goal, and in the process develop your macro and eventually after that point you can discuss strategy and army comps.
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While this might be a useful exercise, you're going to be crippled when you actually get up to Plat and Diamond leagues. Without learning how all the different units interact with each other (using Immortals and Zealots to tank damage for Stalkers, using Stalkers to tank for Collosi, etc), then yeah, you'll be in a better position to play well with different builds, but you'll have a much harder time adapting your play later. I'd suggest learning a more versatile build, and perfecting your macro for THAT build (3 gate robo into expand, maybe?), and then once you hit the higher leagues, you'll be in a much better position to improve then.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On August 04 2011 23:17 Micket wrote:
I am incredibly dubious on the claims that macro alone can get you to diamond. The person that did the test only proved two things. He was way better at micro than his opponents, allowing him to win all PvP. It also showed how mass stalker was potent against Zerg, because Plat zergs and lower certainly do not know how to deal with that composition (It is the only thing Korean Protosses make). If the person testing this "macro only" thing wanted a fair test, he shouldn't have used the Stalker. In PvZ, his play could have been seen as standard, which obviously result in free wins against a lower skilled player. He probably won most of his PvPs in the first 7 minutes with superior micro and his opponent having a fail build order. He probably lost quite a lot of his PvTs.
If he really wanted to show the power of macro, he should have chosen a unit such as the marine, or the hydralisk, something that is easily countered. Why? Because, it would show, that with good macro, marines can beat Colossus, can beat storm, can beat banelings, can beat infestors. Using marines only would yield better results.
Are you talking about the reddit "stalkers only" guy? The guy only attack-moved. He did no micro whatsoever, no concaves, no blink, no nothing. I took a look at his replays and it's entirely legit: You can see in battles the masses of his stalkers dancing around and trying to shoot but he's not microing them, not even looking at the battle; he just attack-moves into the opponent's base..
Here's what he DID do that let him beat his opponent:
1) He expoed quickly behind some early stalkers (which sat un-microed at his front)
2) He contantly produced probes and pylons, never getting supply blocked
3) He used cannons defensively to buttress his expos
4) He did not scout except at the start to determine the location of his opponent
5) He went double forge, double upgrades, used chrono boosts (and in this way kept his gas low)
6) He continued to expo at a normal pace, throwing up cannons and adding gateways
7) He kept his money low by adding more gateways and never having them idle.
He would attack-move with a 200/200 army, and his opponent would ALWAYS be way behind in food and upgrades, since the redditor had a master league level of macro. His strategy, roughly put, was "attack-move into enemy main, make observer follow stalkers, go back to macroing, check back later to see if I won yet"
Against everyone below Diamond league, he had an enormous win rate. Once he was up against diamond leaguers (low diamond, mind you; not the best representation of my league) he had a 50-50 win rate. This meant that, with almost 0 micro, you can get into Diamond League...
If you have master level macro.
Now, mass stalker is a crap-tacular strategy. However, it is one that is easy to macro. Money gets high? Make more gateways so you can make more stalkers. Gas gets high? More forges for more upgrades for your stalkers. Twilight council for blink for your stalkers. Expo regularly. Stalkers shoot everything. I'd add colossi and zealots, personally, but really, don't focus on some "macrostomp" strategy, focus on keeping your money low, and having a balanced composition-- the point of the redditor's post wasn't that mass stalker was good. Rather, it was the opposite; pure mass stalker is kinda bad. Unmicroed, stalkers are the least cost-effective unit in the game, even weaker than landed vikings. His point was that all compositions become irrelevant if you just have way more stuff and upgrades than your opponent. Not slightly more stuff, way more stuff. And the gulf in macro between the top of diamond and the low leagues is enormous, so he can get away with it.
You can't; you're not him. Focus on keeping your money low and follow a build order from the forums here.
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Massing stalker just to practice your macro would work until you hit diamond. I'm kinda against it because you will have little to none unit composition and builds knowledge, though they're somewhat simple to learn. If you want to have success in making stalker only army, you need to study some basic positioning and proper concave (and have godly macro, of course). Check out this guide http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=208343 . The guy covers everything you should know about how to improve at SC II.
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EPT
