• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 00:07
CEST 06:07
KST 13:07
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview26Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL46Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, Zoun, Solar, Creator4[ASL19] Finals Preview: Daunting Task30
Community News
[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates8GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th12Weekly Cups (May 27-June 1): ByuN goes back-to-back0EWC 2025 Regional Qualifier Results26Code S RO12 Results + RO8 Groups (2025 Season 2)3
StarCraft 2
General
The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview Magnus Carlsen and Fabi review Clem's chess game. Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th
Tourneys
Bellum Gens Elite: Stara Zagora 2025 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Cheeseadelphia 2025 - Open Bracket LAN!
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance Mutation # 473 Cold is the Void
Brood War
General
Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans? [BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion I made an ASL quiz
Tourneys
[ASL19] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 2 [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 1
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
What do you want from future RTS games? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Mechabellum
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0 Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Cognitive styles x game perf…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Poker
Nebuchad
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8955 users

Following the mass Stalkers strat, getting beat

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Normal
Hyp3
Profile Joined June 2011
United States41 Posts
August 03 2011 20:58 GMT
#1
Hi everyone. I've been following Macro-oriented mass stalkers play that many high level players tell low leaguers ( like myself, I'm bronze) to use,

Basically, I focus primarily on good macro, while building only stalkers (and upgrades) until 200 food, then a-moving to the opponent's base for the win. I linked two replays for reference.

I feel its the opponent's unit comp that's killing me. I'd would have 200 worth of stalkers, when my opponent would be at 150. With that difference in food, I should be winning these battles but I'm not.

Am I not macroing fast enough? My APM is double my opponent's in both these reps.


Any advice or constructive criticism is welcome

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=224628

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=224627
Believe it
Brew
Profile Joined August 2010
11 Posts
August 03 2011 21:08 GMT
#2
Making ONLY stalkers absolutely wont win you battles. They are too fat, too fragile and dont do that much dps. If you dont want to go into heavy tech yet and want to keep practicing gateway macro, i suggest u mix in 2-3 sentries for guardian shield, and probably 10+ zealots for little bit of tanking.

Do you get blink and try to blink micro?
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland24783 Posts
August 03 2011 21:13 GMT
#3
Firstly I think it's good that you are focusing on your general mechanics, but I think you might have misinterpreted a post. I do recall somebody claiming you could get to masters by macroing perfectly and making on stalkers, but personally I don't buy it, they are pretty fragile and have low DPS when it comes to late game as they don't scale particularly well with upgrades

What you really want to focus on is playing a more standard macro-orientated game and get the unit compositions a bit more solid to counter what your opponent is doing. You can still really focus on your macro doing standard expo openings. For example the 3 gate expand vs Terran or Zerg, or a 2 gate robo build vs Terran (early scouting with obs helps a lot in determining your compositions going into late-game.

I will watch the replay as well and offer my thoughts on that, thought I'd reply first to remind me to come back
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
RyeK
Profile Joined June 2011
United States10 Posts
August 03 2011 21:22 GMT
#4
Whenever an army goes up against an army that has 5-6 collosi in it, your gonna be in a huge disadvantage. In the battle, you moved your stalkers around wayyyy too much, so it turned out that you were only actually attacking 60% of the battle. That was your main problem. Also blink is a great upgrade, but even if you did get it for some reason i dont think you would have used it .

But mass stalker isn't a great strategy. It can win you games, but it won't help you improve. At your level, just focus on macro and making workers, not what unit composition you want to use. Just do whatever, if it doesn't work don't do it again.
Grr Arr Rawr
Profile Joined April 2011
United States108 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-03 21:45:07
August 03 2011 21:44 GMT
#5
Two big problems:

1) YOUR RESOURCES. Always your resources. You were floating so many resources long before that first big battle. If your macro fails, then a gameplan which says, "Forget strategy, just macro" is not going to work.

2) Army Control/Blink. Only half your stalkers were actually fighting - the rest were just dancing in the back. Move in, or research Blink. I sat there and stared at your Twilight Council doing nothing for 10 minutes. Why build a Twilight Council and then do nothing with it? If you'd had blink, you could have done a single blink into his army and all of your army would have been fighting, and some of your stalkers would have auto-targetted the Colossus.
You can't rhyme against the dark side of the Force, why even bother? So many dudes been with your mom, who even KNOWS if I'm your father!
Servius_Fulvius
Profile Joined August 2009
United States947 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-03 23:15:30
August 03 2011 21:58 GMT
#6
On August 04 2011 06:13 Ubertron wrote:
Firstly I think it's good that you are focusing on your general mechanics, but I think you might have misinterpreted a post. I do recall somebody claiming you could get to masters by macroing perfectly and making on stalkers, but personally I don't buy it, they are pretty fragile and have low DPS when it comes to late game as they don't scale particularly well with upgrades


There have been several experiments attempting to prove that macro is the only necessary resource to climb out of a higher league. One of which is this one: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/f7qw9/followup_to_macrostomping_with_mass_stalkers_more/ (this is the mass stalker approach), and Destiny did one where he only made queens (there's a whole series on youtube).

These experiments prove two points: (1) focusing on macro CAN win you games in lower leagues simply because you outmacro'd your opponent. (2) no player won 100% of their games, so clearly macro alone will not give you a 100% win rate in lower leagues.

I think it's important to put these experiments in perspective. A bronze league player is not going to magically gain the macro senses of a higher level player. These skills develop over time. Yeah, Destiny made it to plat with only making queens and this toss guy was taking on diamond opponents with JUST stalkers, but I guarantee you their skills were already developed to the point that such an experiment was easy for them. They also played a small number of games (less than 50) when there are tens of thousands of possible opponents. Saying it worked against the margin doesn't necessarily mean it will work for the whole.

I do, however, agree with the spirit of these tests, which are to show that macro is a tremendous asset and best learned early. I'm glad OP is taking this approach.

ownloading reps now, will edit with observations within the hour as I watch them.
EDIT: Posted advice in separate comment
megaBICEPS
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada79 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-03 21:59:44
August 03 2011 21:59 GMT
#7
high APM doesn't mean good macro, I wouldn't focus on APM right now.

Priority for macro imo is:

1. Constant probes until you staturate all your bases
2. Not getting supply blocked
3. Keeping money low as much as possible

If you can do these 3 things you can probably use any strategy you want and get out of bronze, definitely into gold.

As for mass stalkers, I did hear casters saying its good lately, but it was only in reference to PvZ

Gonna burn some muscle!
Hyp3
Profile Joined June 2011
United States41 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-03 22:15:33
August 03 2011 22:02 GMT
#8

+ Show Spoiler +
On August 04 2011 06:44 Grr Arr Rawr wrote:
Two big problems:

1) YOUR RESOURCES. Always your resources. You were floating so many resources long before that first big battle. If your macro fails, then a gameplan which says, "Forget strategy, just macro" is not going to work.

2) Army Control/Blink. Only half your stalkers were actually fighting - the rest were just dancing in the back. Move in, or research Blink. I sat there and stared at your Twilight Council doing nothing for 10 minutes. Why build a Twilight Council and then do nothing with it? If you'd had blink, you could have done a single blink into his army and all of your army would have been fighting, and some of your stalkers would have auto-targetted the Colossus.



My resources didn't hit 1k until the 15 minute mark when I got the gold expo, and it never went past 1500. Considering I'm in bronze league, that's pretty damn good. Most players would be sitting at 4k+ with a gold expo. Did you want me to never hit 500? You can't expect me to macro at a master's level.

The sole reason my the TC was for upgrades. I didn't get blink because I a-moved my army the whole time. I didn't really even watch the battle. Also, to be honest, I don't know to use blink efficiently. The time spent awfully microing with blink could be better spent doing something else.


+ Show Spoiler +
On August 04 2011 06:58 Servius_Fulvius wrote:
There have been several experiments attempting to prove that macro is the only necessary resource to climb out of a higher league. One of which is this one: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/f7qw9/followup_to_macrostomping_with_mass_stalkers_more/ (this is the mass stalker approach), and Destiny did one where he only made queens (there's a whole series on youtube).



That's why taking this approach.(The exact article too, :D)

+ Show Spoiler +
On August 04 2011 06:59 megaBICEPS wrote:
high APM doesn't mean good macro, I wouldn't focus on APM right now.

Priority for macro imo is:

1. Constant probes until you staturate all your bases
2. Not getting supply blocked
3. Keeping money low as much as possible

If you can do these 3 things you can probably use any strategy you want and get out of bronze, definitely into gold.




I try to keep about 24 workers per expo. You'll see that I stop probe production when the nodes are saturated
Also, I'm pretty content about how high my unspent rescources were during these games. Of course, I'll keep improving and stride for lower numbers, but considering my skill level, It's not so bad.
Believe it
megaBICEPS
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada79 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-03 22:08:49
August 03 2011 22:06 GMT
#9
Ah, well not only is mass stalkers more for PvZ, but blink is ESSENTIAL. blink micro isn't really hard, just blink injured stalkers back. it is hard to blink micro and macro though. mass stalker definitely isn't an A-move army, they are good because of their mobility. If you want to a-move i'd defintely recommend gateway/collosus
Gonna burn some muscle!
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
August 03 2011 22:07 GMT
#10
On August 04 2011 07:02 Hyp3 wrote:
Did you want me to never hit 500? You can't expect me to macro at a master's level.


If you want to win with only-stalkers then you better have great macro. I don't understand why you would want to do that at all - focussing on macro doesn't mean you should go for stupid unit-compositions on purpose.

Build something more useful and it will work even with "mediocre" macro.
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
Hyp3
Profile Joined June 2011
United States41 Posts
August 03 2011 22:22 GMT
#11
On August 04 2011 07:07 sleepingdog wrote:
Show nested quote +

+ Show Spoiler +
On August 04 2011 07:02 Hyp3 wrote:
Did you want me to never hit 500? You can't expect me to macro at a master's level.


If you want to win with only-stalkers then you better have great macro. I don't understand why you would want to do that at all - focussing on macro doesn't mean you should go for stupid unit-compositions on purpose.

Build something more useful and it will work even with "mediocre" macro.



I'm just mirroring This. I 'd be better off with a gateway mix, I'll try that. It's just as easy to hit w>e or w>z as it is to hit w>s =P


Believe it
Sporadic44
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States533 Posts
August 03 2011 22:33 GMT
#12
I've never heard anyone ever recommend that strategy. Making only stalkers to 200 is a horrible way to play. There are stalker centric builds, but none of them wait till 200 to attack.

If you feel like stalkers are the unit you want to play with right now try doing a build along these lines.

3 gate expand (forge fe on maps where thats possible, tal darim and shakuras namely)
Work on getting +1, throw down 3-4 more gateways
Get a twilight council while making stalkers
Upgrade +2, and Blink at the same time.
As those upgrades finish attack with your stalkers. The attack wont come so late that any sort of fast tech will be stomped by your numbers, and the timing of +2/blink timing will give you enough muscle to at least keep your opponent in a defensive posture. If you dont win the game outright you can expand again and diversify your tech as needed.
"Opportunities multiply as they are seized."
Servius_Fulvius
Profile Joined August 2009
United States947 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-03 23:17:20
August 03 2011 23:15 GMT
#13
As promised, here is the advice!

One thing jumped out at me during both games that you should definitely do as part of macro training - make units before, during, and after every battle. In the second game you lost your army and started warping in more stalkers. Those five were your only ones. If you were reinforcing during the battle you would have had it, no problem!

In general, though, you were outmacroing your opponents AND had an upgrade advantage.

It's generally not good to just a-move your army into your opponent's. Here is a simple micro tip:

When you attacked, the front line formed a concave while the stalkers in the back were out of range and aimlessly wandered back and forth until the front line died. From your game:
[image loading]

Your EFFECTIVE army size was this:
[image loading]

What I do with roaches (since I play zerg) is attack move and the front line fires a shot, right click them forward during the cool down period, and attack move again (this time more units fire increasing the dps on the opposing army). If that's too much micro then you could always just blink the back into the front and the same effect will be gained.

One more thing, this is from the second game:
[image loading]

Once more, you had idle units, but more importantly, you needed to grab about 10 stalkers and focus down the colossus. Your units had a HUGE upgrade advantage and you only lost because you let the three colossus hammer your front lines into oblivion.
Hyp3
Profile Joined June 2011
United States41 Posts
August 03 2011 23:30 GMT
#14
On August 04 2011 08:15 Servius_Fulvius wrote:
As promised, here is the advice!

+ Show Spoiler +


One thing jumped out at me during both games that you should definitely do as part of macro training - make units before, during, and after every battle. In the second game you lost your army and started warping in more stalkers. Those five were your only ones. If you were reinforcing during the battle you would have had it, no problem!

In general, though, you were outmacroing your opponents AND had an upgrade advantage.

It's generally not good to just a-move your army into your opponent's. Here is a simple micro tip:

When you attacked, the front line formed a concave while the stalkers in the back were out of range and aimlessly wandered back and forth until the front line died. From your game:
[image loading]

Your EFFECTIVE army size was this:
[image loading]

What I do with roaches (since I play zerg) is attack move and the front line fires a shot, right click them forward during the cool down period, and attack move again (this time more units fire increasing the dps on the opposing army). If that's too much micro then you could always just blink the back into the front and the same effect will be gained.

One more thing, this is from the second game:
[image loading]

Once more, you had idle units, but more importantly, you needed to grab about 10 stalkers and focus down the colossus. Your units had a HUGE upgrade advantage and you only lost because you let the three colossus hammer your front lines into oblivion.


Thanks for the advice! I'll definitely keep that in mind. I'm glad to hear the macro was ok (for my level) and the reason I lost was just the micro. I'll try to be more attentive during my battles and definitely constantly warp on units



Believe it
Emporio
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3069 Posts
August 03 2011 23:34 GMT
#15
On August 04 2011 07:22 Hyp3 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 04 2011 07:07 sleepingdog wrote:

+ Show Spoiler +
On August 04 2011 07:02 Hyp3 wrote:
Did you want me to never hit 500? You can't expect me to macro at a master's level.


If you want to win with only-stalkers then you better have great macro. I don't understand why you would want to do that at all - focussing on macro doesn't mean you should go for stupid unit-compositions on purpose.

Build something more useful and it will work even with "mediocre" macro.



I'm just mirroring This. I 'd be better off with a gateway mix, I'll try that. It's just as easy to hit w>e or w>z as it is to hit w>s =P




Did you even read the post? It's saying that even playing crappy in every area, if you have "perfect" macro you can get to diamond. What this means is that you need perfect macro or this is just a crappy strat.
How does it feel knowing you wasted another 3 seconds of your life reading this again?
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
August 03 2011 23:34 GMT
#16
Yeah, that strategy was made by a player who beat far worse players with it. He had Masters-level macro, and beat Plat-Diamond players with it. Destiny is a lot better than that, so he could do it with Mass Queen. Focus on a macro-oriented opening, look up "[G] Standard Play" on the Search function if you normally play Protoss for excellent PvT and PvZ strategy. The stalker-only approach was an experiment, what you should be doing is focusing MOSTLY on macro, but also on doing things correctly.
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
GigaFlop
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States1146 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-04 00:56:46
August 04 2011 00:40 GMT
#17
Hm, mass pure stalkers? Let me get mass +3 immortals, and then we'll talk in the middle of the map.

I know making only one unit can be fun, but you aren't in a monobattle. Use that freedom to make a better overall army! I don't go for JUST roaches... I get Infestors and/or Mutas as well. Units like Mutas and Marines get more effective when in larger numbers, afaik. Stalkers do too, however they have limitations. Colossus will wreck you. So will mass roaches + infestors, along with... Marauders.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ "Shift-Q oftentimes makes a capital Q" - Day[9] || iNcontrol - Alligator from heaven = ^
Goldfish
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
2230 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-04 02:40:09
August 04 2011 02:33 GMT
#18
On August 04 2011 06:59 megaBICEPS wrote:
high APM doesn't mean good macro, I wouldn't focus on APM right now.

Priority for macro imo is:

1. Constant probes until you staturate all your bases
2. Not getting supply blocked
3. Keeping money low as much as possible

If you can do these 3 things you can probably use any strategy you want and get out of bronze, definitely into gold.

As for mass stalkers, I did hear casters saying its good lately, but it was only in reference to PvZ



Agreed about APM. Don't be deceived about APM.

Players can always spam to inflate their APM.

High APM does not lead to better micro and/or macro.

However better macro and micro leads to higher APM.


I'd say don't worry about your APM amount ever and don't use it as a measuring tool.

If you want to improve APM "and" improve your gameplay:

*Scout often (very important). If you can spare one probe or two to go look everywhere, do it often. Sometimes people may taken hidden expansions, etc. More Scouting Info + Show Spoiler +
Though don't worry about scouting too much until at 9 or 13 supply (depends on the map. If it's a 4 player map with short rush distances and you're worried about rush, scout on 9. If a random player, scout on 9). If you're not sure what your opponent is doing, feel free to move your probe away from their base and hide it somewhere near it (then after a while, bring the probe back in to scout).

Later in the game (10+ minute mark), feel free to scout to see if they took any extra bases.

*Keep everything in production. 30 probes is approx amount to saturate a base (24 on minerals, 3 on gas each). 3 probes can saturate one mineral field.
About mining and amount of probes it takes + Show Spoiler +

Take note that from 2 > 3 probes, the difference isn't as huge as 1 > 2 probes (includes both gas and minerals). So that means if you have 24 probes on minerals and an expansion with only 8 probes - It's more efficient to move 8 probes (maybe 12 if you're going to produce from both Nexus) to your expansion.

*If you need to micro (like moving a stalker with low HP behind the army), do it but otherwise there's no need to micro stalkers if there is no need to (just a-moving works for the most part). If you're trying to get a better position, micro the stalkers which need to move. If one is low HP, micro it behind your other stalkers if you can. Otherwise feel free to a-move all your stalkers.

So overall, APM is very deceiving and doesn't really mean anything by itself. Most pros do inflate their APM by clicking randomly. Generally they do that to try to keep busy and keep themselves from forgetting that they're supposed to be doing anything .

However that's not really needed and probably hurts play at lower levels because you'll most likely focus on it more than you need to and may forget to do other stuff. Just focus on keeping everything in production, focus on your strategy, focus on scouting, etc and your APM will improve by itself.
https://connect.microsoft.com/WindowsServerFeedback/feedback/details/741495/biggest-explorer-annoyance-automatic-sorting-windows-7-server-2008-r2-and-vista#details Allow Disable Auto Arrange in Windows 7+
Deezl
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States355 Posts
August 04 2011 03:37 GMT
#19
So in order to macro effectively, you need to use your hotkeys to check the status of your upgrades, probes and units. Just tap each hotkey every few seconds and look at the production window to see the cooldowns of your gateways, how many probes you have qued up, and the cooldowns on your upgrades. Use this to gain a feel for the timings of your hand movements.
Three hundred lives of men I have walked this world, and now I have no time.
GigaFlop
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States1146 Posts
August 04 2011 03:43 GMT
#20
To reply to the above poster without quoting his wall of text and adding only a small observation...

I noticed that I got an APM increase when I decided on Zerg as my race, simply becuase there was more I was doing, like larvae injects and such. The more you need to do, and the more you need to think about, the higher your APM will go. I believe that APM isn't really that important unless you're Diamond or above, or doing a complicated strategy that requires lots of macro and micro at the same time.

Just to give you another bit of information... I'm in bronze league, and actually have hit a max of 400~425 APM, for a period of one or two seconds, while spamming Infested Terrans. That may seem like a gigantic deal, but it isnt. Not all of those actions were useful actions, which is one thing that is used for APM inflation.
One other bit of info... After deciding on Zerg and playing as Z for a week, my high average apm went from 40 to 60, mainly becuase of all of the things I needed to do, along with getting more serious about the game.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ "Shift-Q oftentimes makes a capital Q" - Day[9] || iNcontrol - Alligator from heaven = ^
BigHeadYoony
Profile Joined November 2010
United States92 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-04 04:05:35
August 04 2011 04:04 GMT
#21
Mass stalkers DOES work in PvZ. I've seen countless games in which top Korean players including oGsMC defeated top level Zerg players. However, you need BLINK and good MICRO for this strategy to work. You need to make sure that you are blinking back weakened stalkers and that all stalkers are engaging the enemy army.

In PvP, in the late game, you cannot beat robo units with mass stalkers. Immortals and colossi just destroy mass stalkers.

In PvT, mmm just kills stalkers. It's worse than in PvP.

I suggest you more colossi oriented builds. It's much easier to macro and micro. You don't need to worry about force fields and high Templars just yet, IMO, because they will just take away from your precious APM, which will increase very quickly soon in the future.

I wish you the best of luck!! It's very nice to see that you're trying very hard to improve.
Intel Core i7 2600 / EVGA NVIDIA GeForce GTX 570 Superclocked / Corsair DDR3 1600 8GB (2x4GB) RAM / MSI P8P67 Motherboard / Kingston 120GB SSD / Western Digital Blue Caviar 1TB HDD
DarKcS
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia1237 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-04 04:05:16
August 04 2011 04:05 GMT
#22
On August 04 2011 12:43 GigaFlop wrote:

Just to give you another bit of information... I'm in bronze league, and actually have hit a max of 400~425 APM, for a period of one or two seconds, while spamming Infested Terrans. That may seem like a gigantic deal, but it isnt. Not all of those actions were useful actions, which is one thing that is used for APM inflation.


They patched it recently so infested terrans doesn't count to APM. Lmao..
Die tomorrow - Live today
SinTio
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany871 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-04 04:07:45
August 04 2011 04:06 GMT
#23
On August 04 2011 09:40 GigaFlop wrote:
Hm, mass pure stalkers? Let me get mass +3 immortals, and then we'll talk in the middle of the map.

I know making only one unit can be fun, but you aren't in a monobattle. Use that freedom to make a better overall army! I don't go for JUST roaches... I get Infestors and/or Mutas as well. Units like Mutas and Marines get more effective when in larger numbers, afaik. Stalkers do too, however they have limitations. Colossus will wreck you. So will mass roaches + infestors, along with... Marauders.


That's what happened on Typhon (in a way ofc not only immortals and not +3 but hey...). There were 11 immortals there (though only with 1 shield 1 attack) which roflstomped the only stalker army. And yes, there were many stalkers actually not doing anything, but move them in and the immortals not doing anything start attacking. It's not like his opponent had all his units attacking.

I guess the game on Antiga was winable with better micro and reinforcing. But the game on Typhon? There probably was some way to win it at some point (spending minerals using the warpgates better i.e. not letting them idle, after all the opponent produced from 2 gateways(!) and one robotics the whole game) but after the point when he attacked I don't think he could've saved that with what was available.

@OP I guess using more than one unit would really help and there are enough good threads in here to show you what these units are. Pick one.
GigaFlop
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States1146 Posts
August 04 2011 14:00 GMT
#24
On August 04 2011 13:05 DarKcS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 04 2011 12:43 GigaFlop wrote:

Just to give you another bit of information... I'm in bronze league, and actually have hit a max of 400~425 APM, for a period of one or two seconds, while spamming Infested Terrans. That may seem like a gigantic deal, but it isnt. Not all of those actions were useful actions, which is one thing that is used for APM inflation.


They patched it recently so infested terrans doesn't count to APM. Lmao..

I was creating a bunch of IT's is what I meant by that.. Unless you mean that, too?
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ "Shift-Q oftentimes makes a capital Q" - Day[9] || iNcontrol - Alligator from heaven = ^
ChoiBoi
Profile Joined January 2011
United States130 Posts
August 04 2011 14:14 GMT
#25
Other people have said most of what I would say

If you're having problems with "awful micro," then just get blink, look at your stalkers and assess the situation really fast:

"do I have a decent concave where all my stalkers are firing?" if so: go back and macro, if not:
"am I going to cream him if I leave my army as is?" if so: go back and macro, but if not:
"can I just blink my entire stalker force into his and crush him?" if yes: do so, and go back and macro, if not:
"does his army composition vastly overpower mine?" if so: run, if not:
"is it just a little bit stronger?" if yes: blink the weaker stalkers back, if you keep health bars on permanently, you can easily pick out the weaker stalkers and blink them back, if not: run, get some different units in the mix.
Micket
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom2163 Posts
August 04 2011 14:17 GMT
#26
I am incredibly dubious on the claims that macro alone can get you to diamond. The person that did the test only proved two things. He was way better at micro than his opponents, allowing him to win all PvP. It also showed how mass stalker was potent against Zerg, because Plat zergs and lower certainly do not know how to deal with that composition (It is the only thing Korean Protosses make). If the person testing this "macro only" thing wanted a fair test, he shouldn't have used the Stalker. In PvZ, his play could have been seen as standard, which obviously result in free wins against a lower skilled player. He probably won most of his PvPs in the first 7 minutes with superior micro and his opponent having a fail build order. He probably lost quite a lot of his PvTs.

If he really wanted to show the power of macro, he should have chosen a unit such as the marine, or the hydralisk, something that is easily countered. Why? Because, it would show, that with good macro, marines can beat Colossus, can beat storm, can beat banelings, can beat infestors. Using marines only would yield better results.
GigaFlop
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States1146 Posts
August 04 2011 14:56 GMT
#27
On August 04 2011 23:17 Micket wrote:
I am incredibly dubious on the claims that macro alone can get you to diamond. The person that did the test only proved two things. He was way better at micro than his opponents, allowing him to win all PvP. It also showed how mass stalker was potent against Zerg, because Plat zergs and lower certainly do not know how to deal with that composition (It is the only thing Korean Protosses make). If the person testing this "macro only" thing wanted a fair test, he shouldn't have used the Stalker. In PvZ, his play could have been seen as standard, which obviously result in free wins against a lower skilled player. He probably won most of his PvPs in the first 7 minutes with superior micro and his opponent having a fail build order. He probably lost quite a lot of his PvTs.

If he really wanted to show the power of macro, he should have chosen a unit such as the marine, or the hydralisk, something that is easily countered. Why? Because, it would show, that with good macro, marines can beat Colossus, can beat storm, can beat banelings, can beat infestors. Using marines only would yield better results.

I agree. I was able to win a game once by having two reactored raxes with a full queue for a full game, versus another T who eventually got BCs and thors and siege tanks. However, that was in practice league. Terrible macro on my part :D
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ "Shift-Q oftentimes makes a capital Q" - Day[9] || iNcontrol - Alligator from heaven = ^
lolsixtynine
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States600 Posts
August 04 2011 15:06 GMT
#28
You can win with only blink stalkers if you have perfect control. However, you obviously don't have perfect control, and you should focus on a strategy that doesn't require it. Honestly you should be going for the standard colossus-gateway ball until you really do have good macro. I don't want you to never be over 500 minerals - I want you to *strive* for that goal, and in the process develop your macro and eventually after that point you can discuss strategy and army comps.
whoopingchow
Profile Joined June 2011
United States293 Posts
August 04 2011 15:39 GMT
#29
While this might be a useful exercise, you're going to be crippled when you actually get up to Plat and Diamond leagues. Without learning how all the different units interact with each other (using Immortals and Zealots to tank damage for Stalkers, using Stalkers to tank for Collosi, etc), then yeah, you'll be in a better position to play well with different builds, but you'll have a much harder time adapting your play later. I'd suggest learning a more versatile build, and perfecting your macro for THAT build (3 gate robo into expand, maybe?), and then once you hit the higher leagues, you'll be in a much better position to improve then.
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25550 Posts
August 04 2011 17:28 GMT
#30
On August 04 2011 23:17 Micket wrote:
I am incredibly dubious on the claims that macro alone can get you to diamond. The person that did the test only proved two things. He was way better at micro than his opponents, allowing him to win all PvP. It also showed how mass stalker was potent against Zerg, because Plat zergs and lower certainly do not know how to deal with that composition (It is the only thing Korean Protosses make). If the person testing this "macro only" thing wanted a fair test, he shouldn't have used the Stalker. In PvZ, his play could have been seen as standard, which obviously result in free wins against a lower skilled player. He probably won most of his PvPs in the first 7 minutes with superior micro and his opponent having a fail build order. He probably lost quite a lot of his PvTs.

If he really wanted to show the power of macro, he should have chosen a unit such as the marine, or the hydralisk, something that is easily countered. Why? Because, it would show, that with good macro, marines can beat Colossus, can beat storm, can beat banelings, can beat infestors. Using marines only would yield better results.


Are you talking about the reddit "stalkers only" guy? The guy only attack-moved. He did no micro whatsoever, no concaves, no blink, no nothing. I took a look at his replays and it's entirely legit: You can see in battles the masses of his stalkers dancing around and trying to shoot but he's not microing them, not even looking at the battle; he just attack-moves into the opponent's base..

Here's what he DID do that let him beat his opponent:
1) He expoed quickly behind some early stalkers (which sat un-microed at his front)
2) He contantly produced probes and pylons, never getting supply blocked
3) He used cannons defensively to buttress his expos
4) He did not scout except at the start to determine the location of his opponent
5) He went double forge, double upgrades, used chrono boosts (and in this way kept his gas low)
6) He continued to expo at a normal pace, throwing up cannons and adding gateways
7) He kept his money low by adding more gateways and never having them idle.

He would attack-move with a 200/200 army, and his opponent would ALWAYS be way behind in food and upgrades, since the redditor had a master league level of macro. His strategy, roughly put, was "attack-move into enemy main, make observer follow stalkers, go back to macroing, check back later to see if I won yet"

Against everyone below Diamond league, he had an enormous win rate. Once he was up against diamond leaguers (low diamond, mind you; not the best representation of my league) he had a 50-50 win rate. This meant that, with almost 0 micro, you can get into Diamond League...

If you have master level macro.




Now, mass stalker is a crap-tacular strategy. However, it is one that is easy to macro. Money gets high? Make more gateways so you can make more stalkers. Gas gets high? More forges for more upgrades for your stalkers. Twilight council for blink for your stalkers. Expo regularly. Stalkers shoot everything. I'd add colossi and zealots, personally, but really, don't focus on some "macrostomp" strategy, focus on keeping your money low, and having a balanced composition-- the point of the redditor's post wasn't that mass stalker was good. Rather, it was the opposite; pure mass stalker is kinda bad. Unmicroed, stalkers are the least cost-effective unit in the game, even weaker than landed vikings. His point was that all compositions become irrelevant if you just have way more stuff and upgrades than your opponent. Not slightly more stuff, way more stuff. And the gulf in macro between the top of diamond and the low leagues is enormous, so he can get away with it.

You can't; you're not him. Focus on keeping your money low and follow a build order from the forums here.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
boon2537
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States905 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-04 17:44:59
August 04 2011 17:43 GMT
#31
Massing stalker just to practice your macro would work until you hit diamond. I'm kinda against it because you will have little to none unit composition and builds knowledge, though they're somewhat simple to learn. If you want to have success in making stalker only army, you need to study some basic positioning and proper concave (and have godly macro, of course). Check out this guide http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=208343 . The guy covers everything you should know about how to improve at SC II.
Normal
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
SOOP Global
03:00
#21
Creator vs Rogue
Cure vs Classic
LaughNgamezSOOP
LiquipediaDiscussion
Replay Cast
00:00
Showmatches
Liquipedia
BSL: ProLeague
18:00
Bracket Stage: Day 1
StRyKeR vs MadiNho
Cross vs UltrA
TT1 vs JDConan
Bonyth vs Sziky
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft407
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 17348
Sharp 106
Leta 95
soO 75
Mind 32
Noble 23
Bale 5
Dota 2
monkeys_forever228
NeuroSwarm101
LuMiX1
League of Legends
JimRising 837
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K1720
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor147
Other Games
summit1g7255
shahzam1316
WinterStarcraft344
ViBE234
RuFF_SC2122
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick587
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta39
• practicex 39
• Kozan
• Migwel
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 20
• Diggity3
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift6186
• Lourlo843
• Stunt256
Other Games
• Scarra1190
Upcoming Events
SOOP
4h 54m
Classic vs GuMiho
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5h 54m
AllThingsProtoss
6h 54m
Fire Grow Cup
10h 54m
BSL: ProLeague
13h 54m
HBO vs Doodle
spx vs Tech
DragOn vs Hawk
Dewalt vs TerrOr
Replay Cast
19h 54m
Replay Cast
1d 19h
Replay Cast
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
[ Show More ]
GSL Code S
3 days
Rogue vs GuMiho
Maru vs Solar
Replay Cast
3 days
GSL Code S
4 days
herO vs TBD
Classic vs TBD
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
GSL Code S
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
Cheesadelphia
6 days
Cheesadelphia
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 1
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.