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I've been using this strategy with great success, to the point I prefer facing Forge FE over gateway expansion builds on Shakuras. However, there's one map I've had a shitload of trouble with: Tal'darim Altar
Normally, depending on their opening I drone to either 70+ or 60+. If they are going for a gateway build or an agressive robo build I go for 60+, If it's a stargate build I reach max saturation very before any followup attack. However, the problem arises when I'm facing gateway builds on Tal'darim.
The problem is being able to scout these aggressive timings, but by halting drone production at around 60 you can keep making spines, roaches and zerglings even if you aren't sure they aren't committing to a huge push. This is exactly what Losira did and doing this even if the Protoss went for a third like Naniwa, he was able to use those units he made for defense to instead become the aggressor and either hurt or kill the Protoss. I've been doing the same thing, but on Tal'Darim it's impossible to pressure the Protoss because of how easy it is to defend your first three bases (a few forcefields blocks off any attack route). I've been trying to transition into mutas but it gets crushed by archon/HT transitions so that doesn't seem like an option. I'm clueless as to what to do.
tl;dr can't pressure protoss going for third instead of commiting to attack on tal'darim, what is best option when doing this strategy?
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I've always felt that FFE is kind of cheesy. It pretty much autoloses to anyone who 6 pools, although the thing is that you can still hold off 6 pool with FFE, so it's kind of lame that Zerg has no aggressive options against FFE, while P or T can do things like 2 rax/gate against hatch first. It's probably just because the game isn't developed fully yet, but it is irritating that Zerg has no way to be aggressive to punish greediness, they can only try to be more greedier.
On the other hand, I think FFE is a bad build, and that a fast third or going super fast infestors will almost always beat FFE. I think 1 gate Expand and nexus first are much better builds, I almost feel that FFE will one day be seen as autolose (for P).
can't pressure protoss going for third instead of commiting to attack on tal'darim, what is best option when doing this strategy?
You should always be able to pressure Protoss going for a third, unless they are just taking a super fast third without even attempting to get an army, in which case you just grab a 4th before having lair.
That's why you need roaches with this build. As I look at it, you can either defend with mass spine/queen, or mass roach/ling/queen. While I'm probably the biggest antifan of roaches, I would say this is one of the few times they are amazing, as spines really hurts your drone count (especially if you need to be making 10+), and massing ling/roach as defense means you can deny Protoss third. From there you go straight to hive, really.
But if you can't deny the third, take a 4th and 5th and get hive tech immediately.
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As has been already pointed out, you contaminate the cybercore, or the robo or the stargate. Not the gateways.
The earliest possible warpgate tech after forge FE is 6:40, but that requires you to cut all possible corners and units and is extremely unsafe. Usually warpgate doesn't finish before 8:00, very rarely before 7:30.
Which means my suggested gas timing is actually giving you a lot of slack to get the timing right. Starting to morph overseers at 6:00 and even earlier is not that hard. The protoss will have a few zealots and a few sentries as units when you start moving in with the overseers, and often the cyber core (and whatever followup tech they chose) isn't even covered by cannons. It's all ripe for the picking.
And I figured the timings out by looking at GSL games, so I'm pretty sure they work on all levels.
The protoss won't even be able to scout it. All he will see is a fast lair, if that.
So, as I said before, if the protoss goes forge FE, all the tech he should ever have available is cannons and gateways, because overseers are comfortably out in time to shut down anything else for as long as it takes to kill him.
If you delay the warpgate tech, then your investment in overseers/early lair tech/gas easily compensates for the later warpgate. What stops the toss from just taking a third while building an army from his gateways? Or just straight up killing you with chrono'ed zealot/sentry (as you spent so much gas on overseers)?
I've always felt that FFE is kind of cheesy. It pretty much autoloses to anyone who 6 pools, although the thing is that you can still hold off 6 pool with FFE, so it's kind of lame that Zerg has no aggressive options against FFE, while P or T can do things like 2 rax/gate against hatch first. It's probably just because the game isn't developed fully yet, but it is irritating that Zerg has no way to be aggressive to punish greediness, they can only try to be more greedier.
On the other hand, I think FFE is a bad build, and that a fast third or going super fast infestors will almost always beat FFE. I think 1 gate Expand and nexus first are much better builds, I almost feel that FFE will one day be seen as autolose (for P).
How does FFE auto lose to a 6 pool? It is the safest opening against it. You contradict yourself in your statement, it auto loses but it can still hold it? ^^
You are entitled to think whatever you like, but let the rest of us just stick to what we know from pro games. You may want to tell the likes of HuK and MC just how bad you think FFE is, I am sure they will stop using it if you tell them.
Nexus first is only good if you scout the Zerg taking his fast hatch. It loses to a fast pool. 1 gate FE is good, but still slower than FFE.
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On August 09 2011 17:47 malthias wrote:
Nexus first is only good if you scout the Zerg taking his fast hatch. It loses to a fast pool. 1 gate FE is good, but still slower than FFE.
Not exactly. Protosses can still safely Nexus first vs a gas/pool or standard pool timing (14/15) and get a cannon up in time before lings arrive. Unless you are talking about a hella fast pool like 6/7/8/11 pool? In that case, cheese > nexus.
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On August 09 2011 09:09 Aletheia27 wrote:
Then I figured I'd respond with some content. So I have a question. Are you going lair on one base or two?
Two bases is required. That's one of the reasons I think the DERP build is a good strategy against forge fe (the other of course being the delay in tech and army for protoss). I myself tried it with 14pool 16 hatch and gas at 18 before overlord (only against computer). The earlier pools should be even more comfortable, because of the earlier queen.
On August 09 2011 09:09 Aletheia27 wrote:
Also, in the time that you're getting gas and making overseers, why don't i just chrono some zeals and kill you? Or further let's say you do get overseers in time. Why don't i just make a few more cannons to prevent any busts and let my superior econ win the game for me in 5-6 minutes? The faster you take your gas as zerg, and the more you tech ...the more you hurt your long term economy. This is because you spend drones for gas, can't support more larva, delay queens and expos, etc....
2 queens and 1-2 spine and drones are enough to defend against a few late zealots from 2 gates. And if he gets more gates and zealots before the warp gate tech finishies, he wasted the whole point of the forge FE. If he really gets numbers you just make a quick wall with evos and the zealots stay out.
And yes, I do think forge FE is macro cheese. The problem is, few people do so, so they aren't willing to use the radical measues you need to apply for defeating cheese.
That said, if you don't like putting down one gas early in response to the early scout, you can wait until he takes his gas, and then put down 2 gas, and you are still in time. But early gas is a staple of many zerg builds so I don't really see the problem to use it for lair instead of speedlings, whcih you won't need early against forge FE.
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Not exactly. Protosses can still safely Nexus first vs a gas/pool or standard pool timing (14/15) and get a cannon up in time before lings arrive. Unless you are talking about a hella fast pool like 6/7/8/11 pool? In that case, cheese > nexus.
Yes, by fast pool I mean 6-11 pool. 14 pool is becoming less and less popular from what I can see anyway. 9-11 pool is not necessarily a cheese either as you get an earlier queen and can catch up with drones (correct me if I am wrong).
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On August 09 2011 17:47 malthias wrote:
If you delay the warpgate tech, then your investment in overseers/early lair tech/gas easily compensates for the later warpgate. What stops the toss from just taking a third while building an army from his gateways? Or just straight up killing you with chrono'ed zealot/sentry (as you spent so much gas on overseers)?
To take a third he needs enough units to move out with to protect it warping. A pair of lings at his front will see anything moving out. If you see a probe moving out you can kill it easily. Even with zealot protection it is very tough to get the probe safely to the 3rd and drop the nexus. He will need at least one stalker to move out with. And you sill have more than enough time after seeing him move out like that to make more lings and shut the 3rd down.
He can't have a 3rd while making an army. He needs the army to take the 3rd.
Also, I don't know why you think spending 200 gas by the 6 minute mark is much. 100 for the lair, 100 for the first overseer. You incrementally add more, as many as you need. 4 is enough to shut down any single building completely.
The killing you with a few zealots I addressed. I don't think he can get enough zealots before I can get 2 queens and 2 spines. And nothing prevents me when I see him getting no sentries and many zealots to throw down a baneling nest with my early gas, destroy his zealot push and then baneling bust him.
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How does FFE auto lose to a 6 pool? It is the safest opening against it. You contradict yourself in your statement, it auto loses but it can still hold it? ^^
I'm saying it's possible to hold 6 pool with FFE, although now that I think about it I think this has to be mistakes on zerg's micro maybe. Maybe not. I should edit my post to be a bit more clear.
I think the reason people FFE because Zerg isn't comfortable with taking a fast third due to newer stargate and mass warpgate play. But I think in the future, the FFE will be seen as bad.
I mean I could be totally wrong. It's still popular in BW. I just personally think FFE will be seen as bad. Maybe a way to look at it is "How often do you see Losira/Nestea lose against FFE?" Yes, I know they are Losira and Nestea, but on the other hand, they make FFE look like a build order loss. That, and coupled with *personal*, and personal experience meaning exactly that, I feel like the FFE is a horrible build. I think 1 gate FE and even 3 gate sentry expand is almost as economic, but denies Zerg's third completely as well as put on pressure that Zerg struggles with even on just 2 base.
I know I'm just Diamond, but on the other hand, I *never* lose to FFE unless the Protoss grabs a fast third (of course, I respond with hive/4th immediately as well as pressure) and somehow the game goes on for 40 minutes and I lose an advantage to better play in the endgame, or he sneak attacks me with something like DT or mass gate when I was 100% sure he was doing something else.
Not exactly. Protosses can still safely Nexus first vs a gas/pool or standard pool timing (14/15) and get a cannon up in time before lings arrive. Unless you are talking about a hella fast pool like 6/7/8/11 pool? In that case, cheese > nexus.
Depends on the map. Nexus first also beats 6 pool, due to how many probes you'll have. I don't think there's any build P can do that will lose to 6 pool, unless they maybe don't wall in and try to simcity instead or if the map is particularly small. On maps as large as taldarim, for example, Nexus first wins, but on a map like Xel Naga Caverns, it will probably lose, especialyl if Zerg brings drones.
Yes, by fast pool I mean 6-11 pool. 14 pool is becoming less and less popular from what I can see anyway. 9-11 pool is not necessarily a cheese either as you get an earlier queen and can catch up with drones (correct me if I am wrong).
As discussed in the "Zerg Openers Thread", 11p/18h is actually the 2nd most economic opening for Zerg, ahead of 16h/15p but behind 14h/15p. Personally I strongly dislike 11/18, because you don't get speed (meaning the fast pool for aggression is pointless, as well as leave you unable to capitalize on situations where you may want speed or banelings early game), and if early aggression comes, your build gets pretty screwed (I think when 2 rax hits is when you need to make 15 overlord, you may end up supply blocked based on early aggression and wondering if you need an overlord or not, or you may waste money on an overlord when you shouldnt like against 6 pool). The advantage is the queen and larva inject, so you can mass lings or drones though.
Personally I like 14/14 the most in ZvP. If you aren't going to default with roaches (i hate roaches zvp), then you need at least something to protect yourself and queen/spine hurts drones too much, and lings can at least counterattack and give you critical scouting information that roaches and overlords can't.
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Losira held off a 2 base 7 gate push with 60 drones This differs greatly from the example against Hongun where Nestea had his third fully saturated (against stargate pressure) It'd be nice to see some analysis against various build orders. Like, against a very fast +1 5/6 gate, a blink 7 gate, stargate pressure. etc, and how many drones they can build (and still be safe) along with what you need to defend. One thing I've had problems with is the roach warren timing. I want to get on three bases and then go infestor/ling into infestor/ling/baneling/drop, but you don't have infestors out to hold a 6 gate, and lings don't cut it: you need a roach warren. On the other hand, if he goes for a 7 gate with blink, very fast infestor/ling is great.
On August 06 2011 03:15 KimJongChill wrote:
I love this style, it really feels like the way Zerg is meant to be played. Is it really possible to hold 2 base sentry heavy warp gate with just roach ling? Also, I'm reading about double stargate, but I've never faced it yet. How do I deal with it?
I was wondering about this too. You can't really hold 2 stargate with just spores and queens if they decide to build voidrays, it just gets too much. I wonder if you could delay with spore/queen until you have infestors out? Or do you think hydras are necessary?
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To take a third he needs enough units to move out with to protect it warping. A pair of lings at his front will see anything moving out. If you see a probe moving out you can kill it easily. Even with zealot protection it is very tough to get the probe safely to the 3rd and drop the nexus. He will need at least one stalker to move out with. And you sill have more than enough time after seeing him move out like that to make more lings and shut the 3rd down.
He can't have a 3rd while making an army. He needs the army to take the 3rd.
Also, I don't know why you think spending 200 gas by the 6 minute mark is much. 100 for the lair, 100 for the first overseer. You incrementally add more, as many as you need. 4 is enough to shut down any single building completely.
The killing you with a few zealots I addressed. I don't think he can get enough zealots before I can get 2 queens and 2 spines. And nothing prevents me when I see him getting no sentries and many zealots to throw down a baneling nest with my early gas, destroy his zealot push and then baneling bust him.
Pure theorycraft is just that - and it clogs the thread. Gates are not that much slower than warpgates - why do you think that toss cannot take an early third with the army from gateways when the zerg invested in early lair (weaker economy, smaller army), early gas (weaker economy, smaller army), has no ling speed (weaker army) and uses his gas for overseers (less/no roach/banelings)? You make it sound as if you can delay the warp gate research forever, where all you can reasonably hope for is delaying it by 1-2 minutes max.
I'm saying it's possible to hold 6 pool with FFE, although now that I think about it I think this has to be mistakes on zerg's micro maybe. Maybe not. I should edit my post to be a bit more clear.
No, it is not a mistake in zergs micro. You need a forge to defend 6 pool, FFE is the only opening where you put it down blindly, so even if you scout zerg last on a 4 player map you still have a chance to hold it. Please stop spreading misinformation - FFE does not auto lose to a 6 pool.
I think the reason people FFE because Zerg isn't comfortable with taking a fast third due to newer stargate and mass warpgate play. But I think in the future, the FFE will be seen as bad.
Strategy Forum is not a place to theorycraft. Prove that it is bad, then write about it.
I know I'm just Diamond, but on the other hand, I *never* lose to FFE unless the Protoss grabs a fast third (of course, I respond with hive/4th immediately as well as pressure) and somehow the game goes on for 40 minutes and I lose an advantage to better play in the endgame, or he sneak attacks me with something like DT or mass gate when I was 100% sure he was doing something else.
More power to you if you often win against it. It still does not make it a cheese and does not give you an advantage just because you scout it.
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Every time I play like that, I get crushed :/
Just like Ret's macro mode.
I think this really is the best choice for the top level players, lesser players like me are not suited for this imo.
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On August 09 2011 19:03 malthias wrote:Show nested quote +I'm saying it's possible to hold 6 pool with FFE, although now that I think about it I think this has to be mistakes on zerg's micro maybe. Maybe not. I should edit my post to be a bit more clear. No, it is not a mistake in zergs micro. You need a forge to defend 6 pool, FFE is the only opening where you put it down blindly, so even if you scout zerg last on a 4 player map you still have a chance to hold it. Please stop spreading misinformation - FFE does not auto lose to a 6 pool.
Forge is not neccessary to defend 6 pool. Just a second gate and good probe micro is more than enough. However if you happened to go forge first, then depending on the map, you either make a pylon +cannon ASAP in the main mineral line, or else go for a complete walloff. Pretty impossible for zerg to take a freewin to be honest if protoss knows timings/responses.
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NesTea used a build with a similar core idea on crossfire vs 3 gate sentry expand where he had an early 3rd queen to spread creep to the third to allow a fast third. The common features were the roach warren and evo chamber going down at the same time, and the gas timing.
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No, it is not a mistake in zergs micro. You need a forge to defend 6 pool, FFE is the only opening where you put it down blindly, so even if you scout zerg last on a 4 player map you still have a chance to hold it. Please stop spreading misinformation - FFE does not auto lose to a 6 pool.
Don't be mean. It depends on the map if FFE beats 6 pool. Shakuras will beat 6 pool, maps like Antiga Shipyards won't (small to medium and large natural). There's a thread about how some of the new maps are very FFE unfriendly in regards to early pooling.
Strategy Forum is not a place to theorycraft. Prove that it is bad, then write about it.
This is a discussion thread. Sorry we don't have the statistics to please you, but Losira and Nestea showed more than just theorycraft on how to beat FFE every time.
I personally believe FFE will be one day seen as a bad build, either replaced by more conservative expansions, Nexus first, or 1 gate expand. Zerg taking a fast third is just unstoppable for Protoss.
More power to you if you often win against it. It still does not make it a cheese and does not give you an advantage just because you scout it.
On certain maps, ie non large ones with small chokes like Shakuras, if you blindly know they are FFE, you can autowin with early pools (I don't think 6 pool, but things like 10 pool, as discussed in that other thread).
I was wondering about this too. You can't really hold 2 stargate with just spores and queens if they decide to build voidrays, it just gets too much. I wonder if you could delay with spore/queen until you have infestors out? Or do you think hydras are necessary?
You can definitely hold double stargate with spore/queen until your tech arrives (Spire, hydra, infestors). You can definitely delay with spores. Eventually your going to need to address the fact none of your units shoot up if you want to kill the Protoss.
The hardest part of this build is just scouting. DT/Stargate requires a response that hurts you economy with static D, while mass gate requires you to purely drone up and then defend with mass units until you can get your tech of choice out.
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On July 27 2011 03:30 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 03:11 CecilSunkure wrote:
Basically I think they're carrying over the paradigm from BW that Zerg wants to do things as late as possible. You want to order your lurkers at the last second, morph your sunkens at the last second, especially in ZvZ when the people would go to 3 base without a pool, because they felt whoever did first would be slightly behind.
So if you can delay as much as you can without dieing, you'll reap the benefits of having more drones -without dieing (or losing too many drones to equalize or fall behind). I always have the toughest time against Zerg players that understand what to look for in order to do this safely. Only when there were maphacks^^
It's called overlords.
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The hardest part of going fast third base vs ffe is scouting the tech and the warpgate timing of the toss and react appropriately knowing what to do and when to do it :
1. stop making drones and start producing units
2. get statics defenses (spores or sunks)
3. tech to lair because hatch tech is not enough to push back the attack
4, know the right transition
Those are the ffe follow-ups that I know well/am quite comfortable to deal with :
- warpgate rush (beginning to be more popular) :
obviously don't get lair. 2 spines or more at nat and thrid and roach/speedling asap without saturating the third. Transition to whatever tech you like or go kill him if you have enough of an army left.
- a late blink stalker all-in with +2 and obs (really common) :
saturate three bases mineral wise, get three gases, lair tech for roach speed, +1 melee and a macro hatch with the additional queen and start producing pure roach ling at roughly 10 min.
Transition into roach/ling/banes drops to be able to harass and have a versatile enough army, later add infester hive tech and broods.
- light stargate pressure (one stargate) (often encountered but imo really weak) :
get 2 spores at each bases, produce on or 2 more queen and continue droning, get lair tech and spire with melee upgrades to transition into muta-ling to regain the map control and laugh at his low phoenixes count while he try to transition into robo tech.
- void ray/gateway all-in (really rare but very strong if properly executed) :
continual queen production with a lot of static d and roach/ling (cf losira vs trickster in the july gsl).
Then proceed to go kill him with roach ling or at least deny the third for a long long time.
- heavy stargate pressure with high phoenix count (to me this is the hardest because you loose any map control for a long time) :
full saturation, 3 spores/bases, more queens, hydra if necessary but ideally none, get some roach to deter zealot harass at third. Then take a fourth, tech to spire and infestor to get corrupter/roach/infester and later transition into broodlords.
But one follow-up that I don't know what to do against is robo tech rush to colossi.
I feel that you can't safely tech to lair without having enough of an army to be able to engage the first 2 colossi push in open field (not when he is already at your third), so that would indicate full roach/ling production with +1 ranged starting at ~8 (maybe before). But then as the army grow if he don't push the low tech become a huge liability because you need corrupters and speed roach (maybe even infesters) to deal with a deathball with 4+ colossi.
Does anybody know the correct way to deal with that ?
Also do you have encountered other things ?
Do you think that the reactions I exposed are correct ?
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Forge is not neccessary to defend 6 pool. Just a second gate and good probe micro is more than enough. However if you happened to go forge first, then depending on the map, you either make a pylon +cannon ASAP in the main mineral line, or else go for a complete walloff. Pretty impossible for zerg to take a freewin to be honest if protoss knows timings/responses.
You are right of course. I phrased it the wrong way, forge is the easiest way to hold 6 pool, not the only one.
Don't be mean. It depends on the map if FFE beats 6 pool. Shakuras will beat 6 pool, maps like Antiga Shipyards won't (small to medium and large natural). There's a thread about how some of the new maps are very FFE unfriendly in regards to early pooling.
I am sorry if you feel offended, it was not my intention. All I did was point out to you and people you may be misleading, that FFE does not auto lose to a 6 pool, it is actually the safest opening against it, so your whole initial statement is wrong. Obviously you can still win with a 6 pool if you are scouted last on a 4 player map, but it is a coin flip and it is still possible to hold it. (hint: you do not drop/cancel a nexus if you scout a 6 pool)
This is a discussion thread. Sorry we don't have the statistics to please you, but Losira and Nestea showed more than just theorycraft on how to beat FFE every time.
I personally believe FFE will be one day seen as a bad build, either replaced by more conservative expansions, Nexus first, or 1 gate expand. Zerg taking a fast third is just unstoppable for Protoss.
I probably went too far with my critique because of your previous false statements - you were clearly stating that it is your opinion only.
FFE is still a very common build in pro games, so the pros obviously do not share your view. Personally I think FFE is always going to be viable on maps with defendable natural expansions. You still get a forge before gate in Nexus first builds, so if FFE ever becomes irrelevant, then it will most likely be the same for Nexus first. It would be a sad day when only one viable economic build remained for Protoss in PvZ.
On certain maps, ie non large ones with small chokes like Shakuras, if you blindly know they are FFE, you can autowin with early pools (I don't think 6 pool, but things like 10 pool, as discussed in that other thread).
Again, this is not true. What stops the Protoss from completing a wall off and dropping a cannon if he scouts your early pool/lings going his way? You seem to use the word autowin a lot without any backup for your statements.
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Great write-up.
If only i was good enough to fend off 6 gates like them.
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Mass warpgate timing will hit at 9:30 at the earliest. Usually they are walking out of their base at 9:45 and on creep with a pylon at 10:20.
I think a lot of fast DT and stargate comes around 7:30 if they fast expand.
Again, this is not true. What stops the Protoss from completing a wall off and dropping a cannon if he scouts your early pool/lings going his way? You seem to use the word autowin a lot without any backup for your statements.
It's discussed in a recent thread about how medium map + wide open choke = FFE will lose to early pool. I believe on certain maps they are too small to react in time like that and the choke is too large to wall off.
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@Beliail88 - literally every single statement you're making in this thread is incorrect and demonstrates your inexperience with high level PvZ FFE. I was going to respond to everything but others such as malthias have already corrected you on the main things.
Also you contradict yourself a lot.
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EPT
