[SPOILER] [D] IM Zergs ZvP opener vs FFE - Page 4

On August 06 2011 16:16 Kirschke wrote:
Where can i see the series and these builds being used by both. thanks

See, it's all cycles. The game is always great when you're favoured. Protoss was OP, now Zerg is OP. I guess Terran should be OP soon.

(Hint; I'm joking. And for someone "not QQing", that was a lot of QQing! xD).

It seems like PvZ is evolving into a kind of continuous slug-out where protoss units have to unceasingly work to contain the zerg and punish any investment in tech or economy with a corresponding loss in army units. Continual scouting and continual pressure using warp gate without loosing units to take advantage of shield recharging. And the pressure has to start immediately as soon as it's safe enough to walk across the map. Any counter-attack (e.g. ling run-by or muta harass) has to turn into an immediate base race.

Protoss increase in power linerally; zerg increase exponentially. Can't give an inch because zerg spawns it into a mile.

On August 06 2011 10:02 sermokala wrote:
This gives us a LOT more minerals a lot sooner and not having to make the investment of 4.5 drones (extractor itself is half a drone) per gas.

On August 08 2011 09:35 Nemireck wrote:


Why are you putting 4 drones on gas? I would call that a blunder. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean... please clarify.

On August 08 2011 08:29 Warrior Madness wrote:
Has anyone tried a modified version of this vs a 3 gate expo build or 1 gate nexus build, at a masters level? I know one of the two old ways of defending a 6 gate is either with a fast lair and burrow or a delayed lair with massive amounts of roaches and lings. But I haven't really tried it against things like 7 gate +2 blink stalkers. Seems like the toss would pressure you enough early on with a 3gate expand or 1 gate expo so that you can't really make more than 50 drones anyway. And you wouldn't be able to saturate your third quickly enough so it seems to be a bit of a waste, but it does give you a macro hatch anyway. What are your thoughts

On August 08 2011 20:23 imbecile wrote:
Heavy theorycrafting, so beware.

I always thought forge FE is macro cheese, and can be punished hard in a lot of ways, like proxy hatches, fast nydus, baneling busts, spine crawler rush etc.

Problem is, all those punishments and responses are kinda circumstantial, dependent on maps, building placement, having scouting drones ready etc. There was no real universal way to punish it.

Now the mass expanding and droning is a general soft counter, but it requires you to be a Nestea to pull it off against the more aggressive 2 base all ins.

Now, I think I have found universal hard counter that doesn't take too much skill to pull off and probably can remove the forge FE from the standard protoss arsenal entirely, as any cheese should be.

Wait for it: it's the DERP build. All you need to do is throw down a gas as soon as you scout the forge FE, go lair with first 100 gas, and make an overseer as soon as lair is finished. Get your own expansions and drone hard all the while and scout his front with a few lings. Then around 6:00 you start adding more overseers, and at 6:30 you poke into his base and see what he wants to do. No matter what he is doing, mass gateways with cyber core spinning, robo, stargate, HT or DT ... having overseers at that time with enough energy can shut everything down hard with contaminate or just with detection in case of DT.

Do anything you like behind that. Roach pressure, nydus with ling, whatever. He won't be able to respond properly. You have full vision, and all he has is gateways to queue units up in and a few cannons. Indefinitely.

Too bad I didn't get to try it yet on ladder, because of me being random and forge fe not being too common for gold and plat players and against random. No opportunity.

But, forge FE means all the dangerous protoss tech is delayed and he has no early army. Which means you can safely go to fast lair and overseers and prevent protoss from ever getting anything he needs to put any pressure on you.

On August 09 2011 00:16 malthias wrote:


You do realise that cheese is a strategy that relies on your opponent not scouting it? And that FFE is a common build used by the pros that is always scouted by their opponent and isn't reliably defeated just because of it?

The idea behind your theorycraft is also ridiculous. Try consistently contaminating all the Protoss warpgates, I wish you luck. Overseers are expensive and do 0 dps. Just to delay one warp in cycle from a example 7 gate blink for 30 seconds you need 7 overseers, each costing you 50/100 (in addition to 100 for an ovvie). And contaminate has a 45 seconds cool down, which means you need 14 overseers to keep these 7 gates constantly contaminated. 1400 gas at 7-8 minute mark?

On August 09 2011 00:16 malthias wrote:


You do realise that cheese is a strategy that relies on your opponent not scouting it? And that FFE is a common build used by the pros that is always scouted by their opponent and isn't reliably defeated just because of it?

The idea behind your theorycraft is also ridiculous. Try consistently contaminating all the Protoss warpgates, I wish you luck. Overseers are expensive and do 0 dps. Just to delay one warp in cycle from a example 7 gate blink for 30 seconds you need 7 overseers, each costing you 50/100 (in addition to 100 for an ovvie). And contaminate has a 45 seconds cool down, which means you need 14 overseers to keep these 7 gates constantly contaminated. 1400 gas at 7-8 minute mark?

On August 09 2011 00:16 malthias wrote:


You do realise that cheese is a strategy that relies on your opponent not scouting it? And that FFE is a common build used by the pros that is always scouted by their opponent and isn't reliably defeated just because of it?

The idea behind your theorycraft is also ridiculous. Try consistently contaminating all the Protoss warpgates, I wish you luck. Overseers are expensive and do 0 dps. Just to delay one warp in cycle from a example 7 gate blink for 30 seconds you need 7 overseers, each costing you 50/100 (in addition to 100 for an ovvie). And contaminate has a 45 seconds cool down, which means you need 14 overseers to keep these 7 gates constantly contaminated. 1400 gas at 7-8 minute mark?

On August 08 2011 20:23 imbecile wrote:
Heavy theorycrafting, so beware.

I always thought forge FE is macro cheese, and can be punished hard in a lot of ways, like proxy hatches, fast nydus, baneling busts, spine crawler rush etc.

Problem is, all those punishments and responses are kinda circumstantial, dependent on maps, building placement, having scouting drones ready etc. There was no real universal way to punish it.

Now the mass expanding and droning is a general soft counter, but it requires you to be a Nestea to pull it off against the more aggressive 2 base all ins.

Now, I think I have found universal hard counter that doesn't take too much skill to pull off and probably can remove the forge FE from the standard protoss arsenal entirely, as any cheese should be.

Wait for it: it's the DERP build. All you need to do is throw down a gas as soon as you scout the forge FE, go lair with first 100 gas, and make an overseer as soon as lair is finished. Get your own expansions and drone hard all the while and scout his front with a few lings. Then around 6:00 you start adding more overseers, and at 6:30 you poke into his base and see what he wants to do. No matter what he is doing, mass gateways with cyber core spinning, robo, stargate, HT or DT ... having overseers at that time with enough energy can shut everything down hard with contaminate or just with detection in case of DT.

Do anything you like behind that. Roach pressure, nydus with ling, whatever. He won't be able to respond properly. You have full vision, and all he has is gateways to queue units up in and a few cannons. Indefinitely.

Too bad I didn't get to try it yet on ladder, because of me being random and forge fe not being too common for gold and plat players and against random. No opportunity.

But, forge FE means all the dangerous protoss tech is delayed and he has no early army. Which means you can safely go to fast lair and overseers and prevent protoss from ever getting anything he needs to put any pressure on you.