|
On August 02 2011 19:42 mr_tolkien wrote:
I was wondering : what is the response to a fast 3rd base from Toss when doing this ? I'm witnessing it more and more lately and 3rd base into upgraded Blink stalkers/Colossi play is quite a pain to deal with if they play defensive while pocking with Stalkers :/
(I'm at work atm, no replays, sry)
Just mass out roach/ling.
Moon v HuK - DreamHack Summer Finals game 2
HuK goes for fast 3rd, Moon overwhelms with mass roach/ling
|
Has anyone actually isolated evidence of the DT timing off of a FFE? Or a 2 star Phoenix/Void timing? I have been playing around with the Evo chamber timings and I feel like going 6 min 2 gas into 630 Evo for a fast +1 is good but I haven't faced DTs or 2 star yet and I wanted to get a more solid Spore timing.
I am not sure how a P player would get to DTs following a FFE (or why they would). The 2 Star timing is something I've faced but I suspect never crisp ones.
|
So how is a protoss supposed to stop this really?
|
On August 03 2011 05:33 MyOwnSummer wrote:
So how is a protoss supposed to stop this really?
You have a variety of options. Smart tosses will put pylons down at expected thirds, so you can see him taking a fast third. Even just leaving a probe there will be a tell. So once scouted, you can immediately take a third yourself. Good cannon placement and being active with your units will stop Zerg from overwhelming you, since they have so many drones. Then it's 3 base vs 3 base, and we all know how that goes.
You can also go for a timing attack. 6 gate with a warm prism in the main is very very strong, and very very underused. Go kill his third, have good forcefields, and you force him back on 2 base, while doing damage in the main with prism. Then take your third.
Also, HongUn did the wrong thing with his VR/phoenix. He killed a bunch of stuff, but he didn't go find the third, or scout the main to see what tech Nestea was going. He would have seen very late Lair, thus indicating very fast third.
|
You have a variety of options. Smart tosses will put pylons down at expected thirds, so you can see him taking a fast third. Even just leaving a probe there will be a tell. So once scouted, you can immediately take a third yourself. Good cannon placement and being active with your units will stop Zerg from overwhelming you, since they have so many drones. Then it's 3 base vs 3 base, and we all know how that goes.
Not really... Zerg will have 4 lings out to quickly kill any pylon you throw down to try to deny a third. That's also a big investment to put a pylon down, most P know better and will cancel. Also Zerg will make sure to kill any outside probes with FFE builds, and will wait outside your base to kill any that wander out.
Also P taking a super fast third is not a good idea. While chronoboost is somewhat like mass drones at once, you will be way too far behind on tech and unit counts without chronoboost. Any Zerg 3 base push will crush a P who tries to take a super fast third. You can maybe try mass cannons, but a Zerg can either doomdrop or simply take a fast fourth.
Protoss can do 2 base all-ins like 7 gate blink all-in against 3 base Zerg, but these are coinflips against Zerg who float 1k minerals and decide not to make 10 spines or a million lings. Like really, Zerg will have so much money, that making 10 spines at EACH base is not a problem. Watch that replay I posted last page, the guy actually does something like that.
I really feel FFE is a bad build. 1 gate expo is a much, much stronger build and applies infinitely more pressure, denies Zerg from a fast third, and keeps Zerg guessing. Anytime I see FFE, I think to myself "Autowin" and honestly, I can't recall the last time I lost to it since the infestor buff.
I think the reason FFE worked was because of, to be frank, abusive OP Protoss bullshit. I'm not QQing here at all - the game is great now - but the infestor patch was sorely needed. Before the infestor buff, Protoss discovered a lot of abusive things they could do, that Zerg had no answer to. It turns out sentries completely nullifies hydras, as in not just works well against them, but just having 8 sentries completely nullifies all hydras and roaches. Zerg simply had no counter to blink stalkers, colossi, or sentries before infestors (corruptors take too long, cost wayyyy too much, take up too much supply - vikings already have a hard time, and marauders are better than roach/hydra, and we don't have EMP or anti-armor).
Before the infestor patch, the game pretty much worked out that Protoss simply had to sit on 2 bases, mass sentries with either blink stalkers or stalker/colossi, or a ridiculous VR/Deathball. Zerg simply had no answer. And there was no way for Zerg to really win without pulling off some extremely good micro with drops/nydus and way, way outplay an inferior opponent, or do a shitty 2 base timing attack and hope the opponent doesn't have sentries or is dumb enough to let a nydus slip in. Even Idra still only resorts to doing hydra all-ins vs Protoss, and as you can see, he either wins immediately, or loses if the game goes on longer. Every time.
Without these kinds of abuses anymore, or rather, less of them, Zerg can just outmacro Protoss and win with infestors. Really, your best bet against a fast 3rd Z as a FFE P, is to make a very normal, very ordinary army of Stalker/Colossi, and just secure your own third and deny the Zerg fourth. Too many Protoss go FFE, and think they must win the game!!! with their ridiculous 2 base all-in (like Cruncher 15 gateways on 2 base, with templar and robo tech). No, just take your own third. If you try to do a mass gateway push, Zerg will just roll your t1 units with t2.5 infestors, as they should - just like Protoss will roll Terran with mass HT/Colossi if they go pure marine. If you go blink, well, you may win, but know that if the Zerg goes infestors, which is very popular now, you autolose.
It's such a coinflip, and I wish more Protoss realized the point of a FFE is not to WIN! but to be able to get an army to secure your own third and use tech to deny Zerg's fourth, and hopefully do economic damage to keep the game more level. So many Protoss QQ about infestors, and they don't realize that Stalkers and blink is only good against Roaches and air units, if there are no roaches or air units, don't make stalkers. Mass zealots actually are much better for cost than stalkers against FG and infestors, as they still slice up zerglings while FG'd, take more FG to kill, and thus more energy and more infestors, and are basically free and allow you to spend the rest of your gas on awesome tech units.
|
|
|
You know, I've been doing this a lot recently and having trouble against P who just take a fast third.
And I think throwing a roach warren is absolutely important. It's better than mass spines, and 3 base Zerg will almost always run over 2 base Protoss unless they do a Colossi opening. In which case Ling/Queen, I feel, works a bit better. I guess if they go 'normal' colossi play and not some gimmicky typical P opening, you just take a super fast third, take a hive, and get NP.
|
Losira's games vs Naniwa at MLG Columbus showcase this very well. He even does a similar opening to 3-gate, using the early speed to pressure as the expo finishes. In regards to a protoss taking a very fast third, how fast are we talking here? In my experience, the protoss can't really move out of their natural until about 8m, after the zerg third is done. Wouldn't the zerg just all-in at that point?
Losira vs Naniwa's FFE on Shakuras
14 gas pool at 225 min
15 OL
2 lings queen
speed + pull off gas
21 expand
6:00 third base goes down
6:40 evo chamber and return to gas
~7:20 roach warren, +1 melee
8:10 2nd gas
EDIT: 9:30 macro hatch
He then massed roach ling after one round of drones at the third and attacked as +1 finished. Naniwa was attempting to take a third at this time after not pressuring zerg at all with his first collosus just popping and he got walked over.
|
|
|
It seems like PvZ is evolving into a kind of continuous slug-out where protoss units have to unceasingly work to contain the zerg and punish any investment in tech or economy with a corresponding loss in army units. Continual scouting and continual pressure using warp gate without loosing units to take advantage of shield recharging. And the pressure has to start immediately as soon as it's safe enough to walk across the map. Any counter-attack (e.g. ling run-by or muta harass) has to turn into an immediate base race.
Protoss increase in power linerally; zerg increase exponentially. Can't give an inch because zerg spawns it into a mile.
|
On August 05 2011 22:56 Sated wrote:
If a Zerg does something like this and it crushes most 2base Protoss pushes, even after spending most of the game droning hard, the Zerg can infinitely deny the Protoss third-base and easily win the game.
I think that you've based your thinking on this one, super-false statement.
Protoss armies are highly positioning-dependent. Defending with them is dramatically easier than attacking with them. Just because you can't assault the enemy with an army does not mean that you can't defend anything he can throw at you with it.
-Cross (Edit: Also, if you want to go pressure, I think the double-stargate phoenix stuff out of Kiwi is pretty terrifying. The things Zerg has to deal with phoenix, Corruptors + Hydras, are just about the two worst units Zerg has.)
|
Good write up but I think you're missing the macro hatch timing which is pretty essential to holding the 6-7 gate timing. I believe it's usually around 50 supply you throw down the 4th hatch. Yea I actually said 4th hatch. 
Overall I think the strategy works great when the 3rd is close enough that you can creep to it in time for a double stargate push or an early DT push. This even includes 3rds with rocks. Just build the 3rd next to the rocks. it's not as ideal, but that hatch just becomes your macro hatch eventually. And if that hatch is a gold like shattered, then you're really not losing much long distance mining. In my experience it's the best against the normal 6 gate push and 7 gate blink push. With the normal 6 gate or even early low econ 6 gate push, you have to scout this (sac OL in base to see gateways and an OL by the natural mineral line to see saturation) because you normal will want to throw up a few spines right and start your unit production about 30 secs before you normally would. If you noticed, losira and nestea use spines alot.
I don't agree completely with early pressure against this style because the zerg really at any moment can pump out 30 lings and a few pine which will be good enough with reinenforcements to hold anything early. This is all assuming they have a spotter and know you are coming. The tosses that have turtle 2 base, secure a 3rd, and go with the collossi ball or open stargate and went into the VR/collossi ball have had the most success against me when I do this strat. This losira/nestea high econ strat is made to punish the aggressive toss with ling counters or just overwhelming gateway unit pushes. It's all about denying the toss 3rd. If he gets the 3rd secure then you'll have to deal with a good size collossi ball which becomes tougher even when teching to infestors. In theory you just neural the collossi and fungal the rest and win, but it's really not that easy sometimes to get those neurals since collossi have range over tha infestors.
The best is to get some kind of trade before all of this but on some maps it's very easy turtle (ie antiga) and secure a third so it's not possible. I think bane drops (like Sen) is a good transition late, but I haven't quite gotten to try it myself yet.
|
Very interesting analysis. While I don't think I'll adopt it straight away, I definitely like the concept behind it. The interesting thing is how well they've gotten the certain timings down. I myself was just finding that fast stargate pressure was around the 7:30 mark, so was planning on an evo timing similar to the one they have.
|
I love this style, it really feels like the way Zerg is meant to be played. Is it really possible to hold 2 base sentry heavy warp gate with just roach ling? Also, I'm reading about double stargate, but I've never faced it yet. How do I deal with it?
|
I'm using this style very consistently- researching +1 melee and crushing lots of two base pushes from Protoss. If I steamroll a push an the Protoss doesn't GG I just tech to infestors and run him over with roaches.
Should the Protoss not push and try to secure a third instead I throw down all my gasses and grab a spire for muta/ling. A lot of protoss have a tough time splitting their army to deal with harassing mutas and a giant control group of roach ling in two different places at once. At the same time you can grab a 4th and a hive.
|
I think the double-stargate phoenix stuff out of Kiwi is pretty terrifying. The things Zerg has to deal with phoenix, Corruptors + Hydras, are just about the two worst units Zerg has.
Yes this could be something to look into, as a chargelot/archon/immo composition rips apart anything with hydralisks and mass roach with corruptors should die to this if the phoenix pick up 10 of them as they're dead as soon as they land, surrounded by zealots. If you lose your phoenix and he loses his roaches, you're in a pretty good spot. The problem would be getting all that tech up.
However ATM I'm a little stumped. I think some of it is the Zerg exponential growth; It's hard to balance between never getting off the ground and just raping everything. (Not to say it isn't, but the metagame can sway this back and forth over this line a lot, its so fine)
|
This was a wonderful OP, my hat is off to tachion, i can't stand nonsense theory-screaming back and forth in the strategy forums. imo fact based analysis of pro play is the only way to put real signposts in the ground. eg. this is the exact time that this happens when nestea does it, not "i feel that evo chambers are needed by 6 minutes or you lose to cloaked ghost all-in's every time"
downside to it of course is the work it takes to dl watch take notes and post all that golden information. I don't even play zerg but i feel this post helps me understand PvZ better than most protoss strategy posts.
|
On August 06 2011 06:37 Quantum617 wrote:
Should the Protoss not push and try to secure a third instead I throw down all my gasses and grab a spire for muta/ling.
This is probably my most favorite part of the build. After taking your 3 bases of gas, you end up with so much excess of it after staying on just roach/ling that it transitions nicely into mutas(or baneling drops, or infestors, or just about damn near any gas intensive units). This build really lays the groundwork for securing a decent position in the mid-game, while allowing you the versatility to branch out into your preferred tech, whatever it is.
On August 06 2011 02:37 ChanmanV wrote:Good write up but I think you're missing the macro hatch timing which is pretty essential to holding the 6-7 gate timing. I believe it's usually around 50 supply you throw down the 4th hatch. Yea I actually said 4th hatch.
Where did you see this? I just breezed through all of their games I listed in the first post to double check and never saw a macro hatch at that timing.
|
|
|
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/vod/65228
Obligatory Nestea vod post.
The reason why nestea and losair have such good zvp is because their amazing players. I think we've reached the point in sc2 where the strategies use by pros are becoming above what could be expected from normal players. They are allowed to drone so hard Because they are so good and know exactly what their going into. How many 2 base attacks straight kill a zerg with a quick third and yet this is what we are suppose to do? I have a good mind to do infestors but can you expect a newb like be to micro like a pro with it?
I'll admit my macro can be pretty shit. I make up for it by useing extra drones and minerals by making spines and spores and it makes me look better at macro.
I think the keyist thing to take from their play is how fucking late they take gas. Protoss NEEDS their gas and nestea and losair are showing that zerg doesn't. This gives us a LOT more minerals a lot sooner and not having to make the investment of 4.5 drones (extractor itself is half a drone) per gas. THAT is how they secure I believe their third so easily. Slapping down 5 gas's gives you so many options.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
