Nestea and Losira are unequivocally two of the absolute best Zerg's in the world, with ZvP being one of their more favored match-ups, boasting win %'s of 87 and 71.5 respectively. I went through their previous 8 games in the GSL Ro4 and Ro8 to try to find some builds that I could copy for my own. 7/8 of the games begun with the Protoss forge fast expanding or doing a nexus first, so I decided to focus on those. Here are some similarities and trends I noticed amongst their builds.
In the game of drones you win or you die. There is hardly a more appropriate quote out there for what Nestea and Losira are doing in this match-up. Aside from a typical 14/15 gas for ling speed, they delay their gases for very long and use the extra income to really power drones hard. By hard, I mean that they normally only have 4 zerglings out on the map by the 8:30 mark. I mean that they make Ret look like an amateur at droning.
shit he just killed 2 queens, 14 drones, and forced 6 spores, now I only have 80 drones left ;(
They don't seem to stop droning vs any build until they've saturated the minerals on their third base. Losira held off a 2 base 7 gate push with 60 drones. That is freaking clown shoes ok.
Losira and Nestea both start their lairs much later than I'm used to. Getting OL speed & burrow in time to scout and fend off a 6-7 gate push always seemed like the go to response for roaching players, but neither of them do this. They take very late gasses(with the exception of early ling speed), while expanding to their third around 30-33 supply. Losira for instance held off a 7 gate timing while still on hatchery tech, and Nestea never got a lair before 8:00 in his matches. That means that the earliest he could ever get burrow would be 11:00, too slow to deal with the 9-9:30 timing of large warpgate attacks.
This alone completely changed the way I'm approaching the match-up. I always thought I was bound to a certain lair timing or I'd just auto lose to big warpgate pushes, but it appears that that's not the case. They get such a big economy and so many drones from their late gases, that they can just throw roach/ling at the warpgate units and overcome them. A few spine crawlers seem to have a very important role in holding it too though.
Their evo chamber timings are scary similar, too much so to be a coincidence. 6:38, 6:48, 6:57, 6:50, 6:55, 6:49 evo timings in their games. Those two have definitely worked out a timing for when they'll need spores available for stargate/DT play. The evo chamber timing also coincides with gas. They put guys back in gas so that they'll have 100 gas for an upgrade when it finishes. They also start taking their extra gases around this time. How many they took was dependent on how tech heavy they were planning to be. Losira seemed to stick on 2 for awhile against Trickster's heavy mid-game attacks, while Nestea took 4 or more against the more passive Hongun.
They also place their roach warrens down just a few seconds before/after their evo chamber a lot of the time, giving them about 30 seconds of leeway to get some roaches out before any aggression can hit.
Overall this has proven to be a hard style to adopt, since less scouting with speed OL's means I have to read my opponents build better, and more drones always puts you at more immediate risk. If anyone else has picked stuff up from their ZvP games that they've found useful, I'd love to hear about it.
Very nice write-up. I've always been amazed at how easy Nestea and Losira make ZvP look. Tbh they make zerg look OP, and I play zerg xD I used to get my evo at 6 min but it looks like I can delay that quite a bit
great analysis and writeup, hits alot of points that are so important. once zerg has managed to safely saturate his third, there's not alot Protoss can do to be aggressive.
Yeah I was so impressed by NesTea that I wrote up a rough guiede for my own use to try. So far it works really well, and can work with so many different tech routes. I think many protoss underestimate how much you can skip on defenses when they go stargate or DT - since you know nothing else will pressure you early.
1st overlord to opponent expansion 9 overlorrd 14 pool 15 overlord. 15 queen 17 ling ling 19 Hatch 20 2nd queen 31 3rd hatch 36 2 more queens (4 total) 46 2 gas in main
7:00 evo chamber, roach warren must be started (a bit earlier is fine too). 7:45 ling speed, unless you got it from your first 100 gas.
8:00 spores in each base. 8:30 4 more gas. 8:30 +1 range attack or melee attack. 9:00 lair start
Full saturation on all bases. Chose tech, and get units.
Was my writeup about it.
I really, really like this style. You get such an overwhelming econ lead. While normally I would just be really behind, or just even, in econ, this works very well as long as you can live through it.
What I find to be useful, is getting one more ling egg at some point, so I have 4 lings. 1 for a xel naga between bases, 1 outside their base, and two continously scouting to check for pylons, and then cover likely exits from his base for stargate play.
I think alot of zergs dont drone enough early game because they dont scout enough so they dont know when the enemy is gonna attack so they needlessly make units. If you want to get out of the lower leagues drones more and scout more and you'll notice a difference
You can't play this like a build order. They are just insanely good at scouting and knowing what to look for. Especially Nestea, was amazed by his play vs + Show Spoiler +
HongUn
. That droning was sick and the sickest thing was that it was all reactionary. Maybe a bit risky but overall it looked safe
Losira and Nestea make FE into tech openings by Protoss look awful, they make stuff like 2 Star phoenix look completely unviable, and hold off all variants of the warpgate all ins (I'm not sure I've seen them play against +2 Blink, but I'm sure such a common build is still crushed often enough). From what we saw at MLG, fast 3rd + colossus was crushed as well by Losira when facing Naniwa (shakuras game), which makes me think the range of viable Protoss builds vs Zerg are dwindling. I think Huk's pressure based style, whilst taking a 3rd, and massing Blink stalkers is very good, but I have never seen him play vs Nestea and Losira. Obv, Huk got thrashed by Losira in Code A but that was a long time ago and Huk is much better now.
I also would like to see if MC continues to do stargate every game, even though it seems it cannot stop a Zerg from getting 80 drones.
On July 27 2011 01:00 JoeAWESOME wrote: You can't play this like a build order. They are just insanely good at scouting and knowing what to look for. Especially Nestea, was amazed by his play vs + Show Spoiler +
HongUn
. That droning was sick and the sickest thing was that it was all reactionary. Maybe a bit risky but overall it looked safe
Sure you can play it like a build order, as long as you keep the following in mind: - It is only viable against forge fast expand. Changes a lot vs 1 - 3 gate expo. - By default, it's safe against any stargate or DT opening. - Mass ling, and reactionary spinecrawlers, is your defense against a 5-6-7 gate push, with or without +1. - Counter attack to the natural / main is your defense against a quick gateway + colossus push, if the map allows for it. - Sacking your 3rd. to kill his natural, is always worth it.
But the key here is that... you are relying on static defenses quite a bit, and creep mobility since your roaches will be slow. So a 4th queen, will get creep up between the bases, and out on the map - and then you can move your static defenses around easier to help defend against pushes.
This style revolves around a quick third and on some common B.net maps I don't see how this is an option. Tal' Darim Altar has destructible rocks that will take your 4 zerglings 1 hour to destroy. In some tournament versions of the map the rocks were removed, but on bnet we're still stuck with them.
Xel Naga Caverns has rocks at the gold and rocks blocking the direct path to the safer 3rd. Any quick 3rd on that map will be nigh impossible to defend. Same story on Backwater Gulch.
I agree that against FFE you can get away with much later tech because he has much later tech. On shak/tal'darim (where I expect FE) I always expand without gas (pool first), take a very fast 3rd, drone like heck, then take a lot of geysers at the same time and tech. ling speed, lair, evo ups all at the same time and explode as soon as you hit lair. You can either do the insane 3 base roach stuff (kyrix vs hongun, min vs genius, min vs genius) where you have 170 supply roach at 11:30 with upgrades and then just attack constantly. Or you can do ling infestor, or mutalisk, or whatever you want.
It was great to see nestea kicking ass with the fast 3rd, and the crossfire game shows how it doesn't have to be all about eco.
On July 27 2011 01:30 Qxz wrote: This style revolves around a quick third and on some common B.net maps I don't see how this is an option. Tal' Darim Altar has destructible rocks that will take your 4 zerglings 1 hour to destroy. In some tournament versions of the map the rocks were removed, but on bnet we're still stuck with them.
Xel Naga Caverns has rocks at the gold and rocks blocking the direct path to the safer 3rd. Any quick 3rd on that map will be nigh impossible to defend. Same story on Backwater Gulch.
Build a macro hatch next to the rocks instead of a 3rd. It'll end up being pretty similar to the original version with 5 mineral patches and one geyser. Your lings and queen (and maybe a spine) poke away at the rocks and you take it around the time you'd normally want a 4th hatch (usually macro hatch) and it becomes a full base.
On xel'naga... you can start the hatch right away but it's pretty exposed until you kill the rocks, but forge expand is pretty unsafe on that map anyway. I would prefer to take one of the side expos and play counterattack (like he did on crossfire). I have not considered placing a macro hatch next to the gold rocks until this moment but I don't think it's worth the risk. Since I have to sac the gold 90% of my games on xel'naga it'd be pretty crippling to have 2 hatches there.
On backwater if they forge expand, I take the gold very quickly and usually do an aggressive 3 hatch roach ling timing attack.
The LosirA/Trickster game on Dual Sight was especially an eye-opener for me. I had no idea you could hold off that ridiculously strong timing with virtually no tech, just Roach/Ling with maybe an evo upgrade.
It's amazing how safe they feel just Droning until the 8 minute mark. I learned a lot about when to throw up my 3rd and how to get good production going BEFORE that push, instead of during it, which is how I died a lot of the time.
As a Protoss player who FFEs every game, I can tell you that the number 1 mistake zergs make when they play against FFE is not scouting well enough and over droning. You think you're safe for awhile, but oftentimes you actually have less time to drone than you think.
Anytime between 8 minutes and 11-12 minutes, there are a number of big 2 base attacks I can do and there generally isn't 1 answer for everything - you can't blind counter anything I throw at you. For example, mass lings will be weak against 6 gate +1 zeal, blind hydras without roaches will be weak against a standard warpgate attack, mass roach will be weak against gateway/robo with lots of sentries and some immortals. Also, even if you manage to completely deny something like stargate harass, you can't just assume I'm going to follow it up with colossus, because I can also have a 6 gate coming right behind it which will kill you if you think you're safe and start making more drones.
So in other words, Nestea and Losira obviously have a lot of experience and react well to scouting and other cues. It's not that easy to just lawl and make 80 drones without dying.
On July 27 2011 00:26 Tachion wrote: If anyone else has picked stuff up from their ZvP games that they've found useful, I'd love to hear about it.
Hey Tachion,
First off -- this post is money. Money money money. Studying Nestea & Losira's ZvP has been something I've also been doing (unofficially) for the past few weeks. Except, you went one step further and wrote everything down and compiled average timings over all of their games vs. Forge FE.
The next direction for your post should look at Nestea & Losira's scouting practices in all of these Forge FE games. I feel like the timings of Protoss gases are huge indicators of the protoss followup (Stargate, DT, Robo, Warpgate), and I've noticed Nestea & Losira have worked out good overlord placements & ling runbys to check the gas.
Basically I think they're carrying over the paradigm from BW that Zerg wants to do things as late as possible. You want to order your lurkers at the last second, morph your sunkens at the last second, especially in ZvZ when the people would go to 3 base without a pool, because they felt whoever did first would be slightly behind.
So if you can delay as much as you can without dieing, you'll reap the benefits of having more drones -without dieing (or losing too many drones to equalize or fall behind). I always have the toughest time against Zerg players that understand what to look for in order to do this safely.
On July 27 2011 03:11 CecilSunkure wrote: Basically I think they're carrying over the paradigm from BW that Zerg wants to do things as late as possible. You want to order your lurkers at the last second, morph your sunkens at the last second, especially in ZvZ when the people would go to 3 base without a pool, because they felt whoever did first would be slightly behind.
So if you can delay as much as you can without dieing, you'll reap the benefits of having more drones -without dieing (or losing too many drones to equalize or fall behind). I always have the toughest time against Zerg players that understand what to look for in order to do this safely.
I've fallen in love with ZvP ever since I've adopted this style. Losira's dominance at MLG Columbus was quite inspiring. The only thing I really have difficulty with is the warpgate pushes that occur just after the first round of drones at the third. Does anyone have any replays of this style holding off any of the 2 base warpgate pushes?
did they ever go against 2 stargate play? I was under the impression that late lair is no longer viable since this has become more popular. (not pure phoenix, something like 6 void rays and some phoenix)
On July 27 2011 03:11 CecilSunkure wrote: Basically I think they're carrying over the paradigm from BW that Zerg wants to do things as late as possible. You want to order your lurkers at the last second, morph your sunkens at the last second, especially in ZvZ when the people would go to 3 base without a pool, because they felt whoever did first would be slightly behind.
So if you can delay as much as you can without dieing, you'll reap the benefits of having more drones -without dieing (or losing too many drones to equalize or fall behind). I always have the toughest time against Zerg players that understand what to look for in order to do this safely.
To hold the warpgate pushes they often produce 1 round of roaches (10 or so) followed by pure mass ling. Researching +1 melee from your evo compliments this defense nicely, as it transitions to either muta/ling or +2 banes.
A good tell for a warpgate push is seeing a chrono boosted forge early on when you poke with scouting lings.
On July 27 2011 04:34 dementrio wrote: did they ever go against 2 stargate play? I was under the impression that late lair is no longer viable since this has become more popular. (not pure phoenix, something like 6 void rays and some phoenix)
Game 1 vs HongUn was a FFE ----> double stargate ----> 6gate push. Nestea held it off fine although I think he wasn't expecting the second stargate.
Wow dude, very informative.... thank you tons for bringing this to light. vs FFE has always brought out my worst game responses... i will certainly look into their drone-heavy style (and hope my macro doens't pile minerals)
For those of us who missed the series due to work (stupid sick people), is there anyway to describe, qualitatively or quantitatively, how Nestea/LosirA responded to 2 star vs Robo vs 6 gate? I am not asking for super detail here, unless you'd like to provide it, but particularly Losira's 2 base 60 drone hold of a 7 gate could be very instructive.
On July 27 2011 03:11 CecilSunkure wrote: Basically I think they're carrying over the paradigm from BW that Zerg wants to do things as late as possible. You want to order your lurkers at the last second, morph your sunkens at the last second, especially in ZvZ when the people would go to 3 base without a pool, because they felt whoever did first would be slightly behind.
So if you can delay as much as you can without dieing, you'll reap the benefits of having more drones -without dieing (or losing too many drones to equalize or fall behind). I always have the toughest time against Zerg players that understand what to look for in order to do this safely.
Only when there were maphacks^^
Lol overlords yo
I don't know what ZvZ you're talking about. Most ZvZ's I ever watched were a triangle between 1 base 9 pool, 12 pool, and 12 hatch into fast muta.
Great thread, I've been doing this to AMAZING success recently. Here's a replay any doubters should watch to see this in action:
The key to this is massing queens. Queens just rape any sort of stargate play, which you should know around the 7:30 mark. DTs are lol with transfuse and ramp blocking, as well as just having an evo around at 6:30, and ling/queen just rapes any sort of gateway push so hard. The one time I lost doing this vs FFE is because I forgot to get NP with infestors, which can happen.
I was wondering : what is the response to a fast 3rd base from Toss when doing this ? I'm witnessing it more and more lately and 3rd base into upgraded Blink stalkers/Colossi play is quite a pain to deal with if they play defensive while pocking with Stalkers :/
^ your super fast third means around 80-100 supply you will crush Protoss. Just go kill him if he takes a third. Usually Protoss does a strong 2 base push, which you can crush with fast third and at least deny his third. On super big maps like taldarim where they can wall up pretty easily, maybe a doom drop.
^ I think a lot of the koreans like to extractor trick just in case for cheese.
11p/18h is actually the 2nd most economic opening, right behind 14h/15p, from what I understand (maybe it's third behind 16h/15p? I think it's actually better than it though).
I guess it would make more sense then if he did that, I'm not sure... But I always thought that the korean players like to extractor trick (which is more economic if you 12 pool or less, 13 pool is same as extractor trick or 9 overlord, 13+ pool is better done on 9 overlord) to be safe. Like, if something crazy happens like a million pylons in your base or a 2 proxy gate in your base, you can go into 11pool or whatever. It's a slight economic sacrifice for more safety.
Amazing write up and keen eye, thanks for sharing!
I normally went for a ling +1 timing with late roaches, but my lategame suffered greatly from this. I'll start practicing with more drones vs early nexus builds .
Anyone have any comment on why he chose this opener specifically (considering it was blind)?
I've never seen anyone 12 pool in a game, but perhaps this is more efficient if you don't take a gas until 43 supply??
What map was it on? The 11p/18or19h and the 12p/18or19h is very nice on maps where you know you are going to get blocked and you want a quick Queen in lieu of fast Ling speed.
If any one has some replays of any of Losira's or Nestea's games doing this style, id love to see them, its one thing reading about it, but actually seeing it in action would be greater help. thanks!
Anyone have any comment on why he chose this opener specifically (considering it was blind)?
I've never seen anyone 12 pool in a game, but perhaps this is more efficient if you don't take a gas until 43 supply??
What map was it on? The 11p/18or19h and the 12p/18or19h is very nice on maps where you know you are going to get blocked and you want a quick Queen in lieu of fast Ling speed.
Yep, this is spot on. Along with knowing how to do roach/ling aggression, knowing the proper reaction to a FFE is essential to being a good zerg.
The main thing to realize is that with evolution chambers the power of +1 lings/roaches on creep, and queens, there is no need for lair for a while. That means you don't need much gas. Which means more drones, and lots of them.
Particularly if you see stargate, you can basically delay your lair till like 9 minutes because you can rely on your spores/queens to prevent any of their tech play.
On August 02 2011 19:42 mr_tolkien wrote: I was wondering : what is the response to a fast 3rd base from Toss when doing this ? I'm witnessing it more and more lately and 3rd base into upgraded Blink stalkers/Colossi play is quite a pain to deal with if they play defensive while pocking with Stalkers :/
Has anyone actually isolated evidence of the DT timing off of a FFE? Or a 2 star Phoenix/Void timing? I have been playing around with the Evo chamber timings and I feel like going 6 min 2 gas into 630 Evo for a fast +1 is good but I haven't faced DTs or 2 star yet and I wanted to get a more solid Spore timing.
I am not sure how a P player would get to DTs following a FFE (or why they would). The 2 Star timing is something I've faced but I suspect never crisp ones.
On August 03 2011 05:33 MyOwnSummer wrote: So how is a protoss supposed to stop this really?
You have a variety of options. Smart tosses will put pylons down at expected thirds, so you can see him taking a fast third. Even just leaving a probe there will be a tell. So once scouted, you can immediately take a third yourself. Good cannon placement and being active with your units will stop Zerg from overwhelming you, since they have so many drones. Then it's 3 base vs 3 base, and we all know how that goes.
You can also go for a timing attack. 6 gate with a warm prism in the main is very very strong, and very very underused. Go kill his third, have good forcefields, and you force him back on 2 base, while doing damage in the main with prism. Then take your third.
Also, HongUn did the wrong thing with his VR/phoenix. He killed a bunch of stuff, but he didn't go find the third, or scout the main to see what tech Nestea was going. He would have seen very late Lair, thus indicating very fast third.
You have a variety of options. Smart tosses will put pylons down at expected thirds, so you can see him taking a fast third. Even just leaving a probe there will be a tell. So once scouted, you can immediately take a third yourself. Good cannon placement and being active with your units will stop Zerg from overwhelming you, since they have so many drones. Then it's 3 base vs 3 base, and we all know how that goes.
Not really... Zerg will have 4 lings out to quickly kill any pylon you throw down to try to deny a third. That's also a big investment to put a pylon down, most P know better and will cancel. Also Zerg will make sure to kill any outside probes with FFE builds, and will wait outside your base to kill any that wander out.
Also P taking a super fast third is not a good idea. While chronoboost is somewhat like mass drones at once, you will be way too far behind on tech and unit counts without chronoboost. Any Zerg 3 base push will crush a P who tries to take a super fast third. You can maybe try mass cannons, but a Zerg can either doomdrop or simply take a fast fourth.
Protoss can do 2 base all-ins like 7 gate blink all-in against 3 base Zerg, but these are coinflips against Zerg who float 1k minerals and decide not to make 10 spines or a million lings. Like really, Zerg will have so much money, that making 10 spines at EACH base is not a problem. Watch that replay I posted last page, the guy actually does something like that.
I really feel FFE is a bad build. 1 gate expo is a much, much stronger build and applies infinitely more pressure, denies Zerg from a fast third, and keeps Zerg guessing. Anytime I see FFE, I think to myself "Autowin" and honestly, I can't recall the last time I lost to it since the infestor buff.
I think the reason FFE worked was because of, to be frank, abusive OP Protoss bullshit. I'm not QQing here at all - the game is great now - but the infestor patch was sorely needed. Before the infestor buff, Protoss discovered a lot of abusive things they could do, that Zerg had no answer to. It turns out sentries completely nullifies hydras, as in not just works well against them, but just having 8 sentries completely nullifies all hydras and roaches. Zerg simply had no counter to blink stalkers, colossi, or sentries before infestors (corruptors take too long, cost wayyyy too much, take up too much supply - vikings already have a hard time, and marauders are better than roach/hydra, and we don't have EMP or anti-armor).
Before the infestor patch, the game pretty much worked out that Protoss simply had to sit on 2 bases, mass sentries with either blink stalkers or stalker/colossi, or a ridiculous VR/Deathball. Zerg simply had no answer. And there was no way for Zerg to really win without pulling off some extremely good micro with drops/nydus and way, way outplay an inferior opponent, or do a shitty 2 base timing attack and hope the opponent doesn't have sentries or is dumb enough to let a nydus slip in. Even Idra still only resorts to doing hydra all-ins vs Protoss, and as you can see, he either wins immediately, or loses if the game goes on longer. Every time.
Without these kinds of abuses anymore, or rather, less of them, Zerg can just outmacro Protoss and win with infestors. Really, your best bet against a fast 3rd Z as a FFE P, is to make a very normal, very ordinary army of Stalker/Colossi, and just secure your own third and deny the Zerg fourth. Too many Protoss go FFE, and think they must win the game!!! with their ridiculous 2 base all-in (like Cruncher 15 gateways on 2 base, with templar and robo tech). No, just take your own third. If you try to do a mass gateway push, Zerg will just roll your t1 units with t2.5 infestors, as they should - just like Protoss will roll Terran with mass HT/Colossi if they go pure marine. If you go blink, well, you may win, but know that if the Zerg goes infestors, which is very popular now, you autolose.
It's such a coinflip, and I wish more Protoss realized the point of a FFE is not to WIN! but to be able to get an army to secure your own third and use tech to deny Zerg's fourth, and hopefully do economic damage to keep the game more level. So many Protoss QQ about infestors, and they don't realize that Stalkers and blink is only good against Roaches and air units, if there are no roaches or air units, don't make stalkers. Mass zealots actually are much better for cost than stalkers against FG and infestors, as they still slice up zerglings while FG'd, take more FG to kill, and thus more energy and more infestors, and are basically free and allow you to spend the rest of your gas on awesome tech units.
You know, I've been doing this a lot recently and having trouble against P who just take a fast third.
And I think throwing a roach warren is absolutely important. It's better than mass spines, and 3 base Zerg will almost always run over 2 base Protoss unless they do a Colossi opening. In which case Ling/Queen, I feel, works a bit better. I guess if they go 'normal' colossi play and not some gimmicky typical P opening, you just take a super fast third, take a hive, and get NP.
Losira's games vs Naniwa at MLG Columbus showcase this very well. He even does a similar opening to 3-gate, using the early speed to pressure as the expo finishes. In regards to a protoss taking a very fast third, how fast are we talking here? In my experience, the protoss can't really move out of their natural until about 8m, after the zerg third is done. Wouldn't the zerg just all-in at that point?
Losira vs Naniwa's FFE on Shakuras 14 gas pool at 225 min 15 OL 2 lings queen speed + pull off gas 21 expand 6:00 third base goes down 6:40 evo chamber and return to gas ~7:20 roach warren, +1 melee 8:10 2nd gas EDIT: 9:30 macro hatch
He then massed roach ling after one round of drones at the third and attacked as +1 finished. Naniwa was attempting to take a third at this time after not pressuring zerg at all with his first collosus just popping and he got walked over.
It seems like PvZ is evolving into a kind of continuous slug-out where protoss units have to unceasingly work to contain the zerg and punish any investment in tech or economy with a corresponding loss in army units. Continual scouting and continual pressure using warp gate without loosing units to take advantage of shield recharging. And the pressure has to start immediately as soon as it's safe enough to walk across the map. Any counter-attack (e.g. ling run-by or muta harass) has to turn into an immediate base race.
Protoss increase in power linerally; zerg increase exponentially. Can't give an inch because zerg spawns it into a mile.
On August 05 2011 22:56 Sated wrote: If a Zerg does something like this and it crushes most 2base Protoss pushes, even after spending most of the game droning hard, the Zerg can infinitely deny the Protoss third-base and easily win the game.
I think that you've based your thinking on this one, super-false statement.
Protoss armies are highly positioning-dependent. Defending with them is dramatically easier than attacking with them. Just because you can't assault the enemy with an army does not mean that you can't defend anything he can throw at you with it.
-Cross (Edit: Also, if you want to go pressure, I think the double-stargate phoenix stuff out of Kiwi is pretty terrifying. The things Zerg has to deal with phoenix, Corruptors + Hydras, are just about the two worst units Zerg has.)
Good write up but I think you're missing the macro hatch timing which is pretty essential to holding the 6-7 gate timing. I believe it's usually around 50 supply you throw down the 4th hatch. Yea I actually said 4th hatch.
Overall I think the strategy works great when the 3rd is close enough that you can creep to it in time for a double stargate push or an early DT push. This even includes 3rds with rocks. Just build the 3rd next to the rocks. it's not as ideal, but that hatch just becomes your macro hatch eventually. And if that hatch is a gold like shattered, then you're really not losing much long distance mining. In my experience it's the best against the normal 6 gate push and 7 gate blink push. With the normal 6 gate or even early low econ 6 gate push, you have to scout this (sac OL in base to see gateways and an OL by the natural mineral line to see saturation) because you normal will want to throw up a few spines right and start your unit production about 30 secs before you normally would. If you noticed, losira and nestea use spines alot.
I don't agree completely with early pressure against this style because the zerg really at any moment can pump out 30 lings and a few pine which will be good enough with reinenforcements to hold anything early. This is all assuming they have a spotter and know you are coming. The tosses that have turtle 2 base, secure a 3rd, and go with the collossi ball or open stargate and went into the VR/collossi ball have had the most success against me when I do this strat. This losira/nestea high econ strat is made to punish the aggressive toss with ling counters or just overwhelming gateway unit pushes. It's all about denying the toss 3rd. If he gets the 3rd secure then you'll have to deal with a good size collossi ball which becomes tougher even when teching to infestors. In theory you just neural the collossi and fungal the rest and win, but it's really not that easy sometimes to get those neurals since collossi have range over tha infestors.
The best is to get some kind of trade before all of this but on some maps it's very easy turtle (ie antiga) and secure a third so it's not possible. I think bane drops (like Sen) is a good transition late, but I haven't quite gotten to try it myself yet.
Very interesting analysis. While I don't think I'll adopt it straight away, I definitely like the concept behind it. The interesting thing is how well they've gotten the certain timings down. I myself was just finding that fast stargate pressure was around the 7:30 mark, so was planning on an evo timing similar to the one they have.
I love this style, it really feels like the way Zerg is meant to be played. Is it really possible to hold 2 base sentry heavy warp gate with just roach ling? Also, I'm reading about double stargate, but I've never faced it yet. How do I deal with it?
I'm using this style very consistently- researching +1 melee and crushing lots of two base pushes from Protoss. If I steamroll a push an the Protoss doesn't GG I just tech to infestors and run him over with roaches.
Should the Protoss not push and try to secure a third instead I throw down all my gasses and grab a spire for muta/ling. A lot of protoss have a tough time splitting their army to deal with harassing mutas and a giant control group of roach ling in two different places at once. At the same time you can grab a 4th and a hive.
I think the double-stargate phoenix stuff out of Kiwi is pretty terrifying. The things Zerg has to deal with phoenix, Corruptors + Hydras, are just about the two worst units Zerg has.
Yes this could be something to look into, as a chargelot/archon/immo composition rips apart anything with hydralisks and mass roach with corruptors should die to this if the phoenix pick up 10 of them as they're dead as soon as they land, surrounded by zealots. If you lose your phoenix and he loses his roaches, you're in a pretty good spot. The problem would be getting all that tech up.
However ATM I'm a little stumped. I think some of it is the Zerg exponential growth; It's hard to balance between never getting off the ground and just raping everything. (Not to say it isn't, but the metagame can sway this back and forth over this line a lot, its so fine)
This was a wonderful OP, my hat is off to tachion, i can't stand nonsense theory-screaming back and forth in the strategy forums. imo fact based analysis of pro play is the only way to put real signposts in the ground. eg. this is the exact time that this happens when nestea does it, not "i feel that evo chambers are needed by 6 minutes or you lose to cloaked ghost all-in's every time"
downside to it of course is the work it takes to dl watch take notes and post all that golden information. I don't even play zerg but i feel this post helps me understand PvZ better than most protoss strategy posts.
On August 06 2011 06:37 Quantum617 wrote: Should the Protoss not push and try to secure a third instead I throw down all my gasses and grab a spire for muta/ling.
This is probably my most favorite part of the build. After taking your 3 bases of gas, you end up with so much excess of it after staying on just roach/ling that it transitions nicely into mutas(or baneling drops, or infestors, or just about damn near any gas intensive units). This build really lays the groundwork for securing a decent position in the mid-game, while allowing you the versatility to branch out into your preferred tech, whatever it is.
On August 06 2011 02:37 ChanmanV wrote: Good write up but I think you're missing the macro hatch timing which is pretty essential to holding the 6-7 gate timing. I believe it's usually around 50 supply you throw down the 4th hatch. Yea I actually said 4th hatch.
Where did you see this? I just breezed through all of their games I listed in the first post to double check and never saw a macro hatch at that timing.
In the StarWars event, Nestea lost to LoveCD and 2 out of the 3 games were basically the same scenario as described by the OP. One of them Nestea won, the other he lost. LoveCD's pressure variant was a zealot/stalker push on the third followed by blink stalkers. In the game he won he took out the third, in the game he lost he didn't.
Edit: And there's this one, although it's not an IM zerg, LoveTT takes out MorroW 2 games in a row with a fast zealot/sentry 6 gate timing. Both are FFE vs quick thirds.
The reason why nestea and losair have such good zvp is because their amazing players. I think we've reached the point in sc2 where the strategies use by pros are becoming above what could be expected from normal players. They are allowed to drone so hard Because they are so good and know exactly what their going into. How many 2 base attacks straight kill a zerg with a quick third and yet this is what we are suppose to do? I have a good mind to do infestors but can you expect a newb like be to micro like a pro with it?
I'll admit my macro can be pretty shit. I make up for it by useing extra drones and minerals by making spines and spores and it makes me look better at macro.
I think the keyist thing to take from their play is how fucking late they take gas. Protoss NEEDS their gas and nestea and losair are showing that zerg doesn't. This gives us a LOT more minerals a lot sooner and not having to make the investment of 4.5 drones (extractor itself is half a drone) per gas. THAT is how they secure I believe their third so easily. Slapping down 5 gas's gives you so many options.
Yea ive been doing late gas for quite a while, having 55 drones or so at between 8-9 min is nice to have. I always os scout between9-10 min to see exactly what the toss iss doing so i know whether i can saturate my third or if i have to wait until after the push. Toss is by far my best match-up.
See, it's all cycles. The game is always great when you're favoured. Protoss was OP, now Zerg is OP. I guess Terran should be OP soon.
(Hint; I'm joking. And for someone "not QQing", that was a lot of QQing! xD).
I guess it's QQ about the past. I don't know if Zerg is favored/OP now, I just think a lot of lower level players don't know how to feedback. Even in Diamond I run into Protoss, actually the majority, who fail to feedback my infestors, even when they have HT out. Half decent Protoss know to simply have 3-4 HT and an observer, and instantly kill 10+ infestors while only taking a single FG.
I think lower level P think that FG is just this crazy deadly spell that kills in one cast, and generally try to open something gimmicky. White-Ra has some great VODs where he counters infestor play - you don't do anything fancy, he just goes gateway/colossi, doesnt make stalkers when there's no roaches, and then takes a third and HT against infestors. Very calm, very normal. Infestors own gimmicky play.
It seems like PvZ is evolving into a kind of continuous slug-out where protoss units have to unceasingly work to contain the zerg and punish any investment in tech or economy with a corresponding loss in army units. Continual scouting and continual pressure using warp gate without loosing units to take advantage of shield recharging. And the pressure has to start immediately as soon as it's safe enough to walk across the map. Any counter-attack (e.g. ling run-by or muta harass) has to turn into an immediate base race.
Protoss increase in power linerally; zerg increase exponentially. Can't give an inch because zerg spawns it into a mile.
I disagree. Infestors haven't really changed how the match-up plays, they just made it so P doesn't get away with abusive shit anymore, and gives Zerg a chance to actually win without doing a 2 base all-in hydra play. Cruncher showed that to beat Zerg doing roach/hydra, you simply FFE and then go 2 base VR/Colossi with sentries, then roll out. No way Zerg can stop it without some crazy nydus/drop play.
The problem for Zerg is that our units are just rolled by certain Protoss units. We have units like roaches, which are 'okay' against zealots (they actually lose 1v1 to zealots if unmicro'd, or if forcefielded) and are slightly bad against stalkers, but when colossi are present, all of them are immediately nullified and die instantly. Infestors are great, but just 2-3 HT and bam, all 10 of them are feedbacked by a protoss who has low masters level micro.
A macro protoss is the hardest thing for Zerg to deal with, and Zerg will always lose a split map scenario against Protoss. Cannons are also ridiculously hard to deal with.
But don't DO NOT rely on gateway units against infestor play. That's really bad idea. Infestors are Zerg's only counter to sentries and stalkers, so don't make them against infestors. To beat infestors, just have a very normal army, don't make stalkers if Zerg has no roaches or air units, and get HT out and storm and FB. Colossi make short work of infestors as well.
Anyways, I really feel that FFE is a really bad build, and I think P will soon go towards nexus first, 1 gate expand, or 1 gate sentry expand stargate (like MC does). There is zero ability to put on pressure until the 9:45 minute mark at earliest, usually it's around 11:00. Personally, when I see FFE builds on ladder, I smile and think to myself "autowin". It's impossible for Protoss to beat a 3 base Zerg when on a FFE build imo, their third will be way too late. a 1 gate expand is just as economic but allows for infinitely more pressure, and makes sure zerg doesn't grab a third.
Has anyone tried a modified version of this vs a 3 gate expo build or 1 gate nexus build, at a masters level? I know one of the two old ways of defending a 6 gate is either with a fast lair and burrow or a delayed lair with massive amounts of roaches and lings. But I haven't really tried it against things like 7 gate +2 blink stalkers. Seems like the toss would pressure you enough early on with a 3gate expand or 1 gate expo so that you can't really make more than 50 drones anyway. And you wouldn't be able to saturate your third quickly enough so it seems to be a bit of a waste, but it does give you a macro hatch anyway. What are your thoughts
On August 06 2011 10:02 sermokala wrote: This gives us a LOT more minerals a lot sooner and not having to make the investment of 4.5 drones (extractor itself is half a drone) per gas.
Why are you putting 4 drones on gas? I would call that a blunder. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean... please clarify.
On August 06 2011 10:02 sermokala wrote: This gives us a LOT more minerals a lot sooner and not having to make the investment of 4.5 drones (extractor itself is half a drone) per gas.
Why are you putting 4 drones on gas? I would call that a blunder. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean... please clarify.
extractor costs 1.5 drones, the drone + 25 minerals.
On August 08 2011 08:29 Warrior Madness wrote: Has anyone tried a modified version of this vs a 3 gate expo build or 1 gate nexus build, at a masters level? I know one of the two old ways of defending a 6 gate is either with a fast lair and burrow or a delayed lair with massive amounts of roaches and lings. But I haven't really tried it against things like 7 gate +2 blink stalkers. Seems like the toss would pressure you enough early on with a 3gate expand or 1 gate expo so that you can't really make more than 50 drones anyway. And you wouldn't be able to saturate your third quickly enough so it seems to be a bit of a waste, but it does give you a macro hatch anyway. What are your thoughts
I've been trying, but running into some of the problems you described =/ The threat of 3 gate pressure means you can't drone as freely as against a FE. It's definitely harder to defend vs 2 base warpgate pushes since they'll typically have more sentries with more energy, and you'll have less drones to support macroing an army in response.
I'm finding it easier to play against a FE than a regular expand :/
This really should be every zergs game plan good scouting. awareness of timings and hard droning. i dont really see this as a build as much an overarking game plan.
I always thought forge FE is macro cheese, and can be punished hard in a lot of ways, like proxy hatches, fast nydus, baneling busts, spine crawler rush etc.
Problem is, all those punishments and responses are kinda circumstantial, dependent on maps, building placement, having scouting drones ready etc. There was no real universal way to punish it.
Now the mass expanding and droning is a general soft counter, but it requires you to be a Nestea to pull it off against the more aggressive 2 base all ins.
Now, I think I have found universal hard counter that doesn't take too much skill to pull off and probably can remove the forge FE from the standard protoss arsenal entirely, as any cheese should be.
Wait for it: it's the DERP build. All you need to do is throw down a gas as soon as you scout the forge FE, go lair with first 100 gas, and make an overseer as soon as lair is finished. Get your own expansions and drone hard all the while and scout his front with a few lings. Then around 6:00 you start adding more overseers, and at 6:30 you poke into his base and see what he wants to do. No matter what he is doing, mass gateways with cyber core spinning, robo, stargate, HT or DT ... having overseers at that time with enough energy can shut everything down hard with contaminate or just with detection in case of DT.
Do anything you like behind that. Roach pressure, nydus with ling, whatever. He won't be able to respond properly. You have full vision, and all he has is gateways to queue units up in and a few cannons. Indefinitely.
Too bad I didn't get to try it yet on ladder, because of me being random and forge fe not being too common for gold and plat players and against random. No opportunity.
But, forge FE means all the dangerous protoss tech is delayed and he has no early army. Which means you can safely go to fast lair and overseers and prevent protoss from ever getting anything he needs to put any pressure on you.
On August 08 2011 20:23 imbecile wrote: Heavy theorycrafting, so beware.
I always thought forge FE is macro cheese, and can be punished hard in a lot of ways, like proxy hatches, fast nydus, baneling busts, spine crawler rush etc.
Problem is, all those punishments and responses are kinda circumstantial, dependent on maps, building placement, having scouting drones ready etc. There was no real universal way to punish it.
Now the mass expanding and droning is a general soft counter, but it requires you to be a Nestea to pull it off against the more aggressive 2 base all ins.
Now, I think I have found universal hard counter that doesn't take too much skill to pull off and probably can remove the forge FE from the standard protoss arsenal entirely, as any cheese should be.
Wait for it: it's the DERP build. All you need to do is throw down a gas as soon as you scout the forge FE, go lair with first 100 gas, and make an overseer as soon as lair is finished. Get your own expansions and drone hard all the while and scout his front with a few lings. Then around 6:00 you start adding more overseers, and at 6:30 you poke into his base and see what he wants to do. No matter what he is doing, mass gateways with cyber core spinning, robo, stargate, HT or DT ... having overseers at that time with enough energy can shut everything down hard with contaminate or just with detection in case of DT.
Do anything you like behind that. Roach pressure, nydus with ling, whatever. He won't be able to respond properly. You have full vision, and all he has is gateways to queue units up in and a few cannons. Indefinitely.
Too bad I didn't get to try it yet on ladder, because of me being random and forge fe not being too common for gold and plat players and against random. No opportunity.
But, forge FE means all the dangerous protoss tech is delayed and he has no early army. Which means you can safely go to fast lair and overseers and prevent protoss from ever getting anything he needs to put any pressure on you.
You do realise that cheese is a strategy that relies on your opponent not scouting it? And that FFE is a common build used by the pros that is always scouted by their opponent and isn't reliably defeated just because of it?
The idea behind your theorycraft is also ridiculous. Try consistently contaminating all the Protoss warpgates, I wish you luck. Overseers are expensive and do 0 dps. Just to delay one warp in cycle from a example 7 gate blink for 30 seconds you need 7 overseers, each costing you 50/100 (in addition to 100 for an ovvie). And contaminate has a 45 seconds cool down, which means you need 14 overseers to keep these 7 gates constantly contaminated. 1400 gas at 7-8 minute mark?
On August 08 2011 20:23 imbecile wrote: Heavy theorycrafting, so beware.
I always thought forge FE is macro cheese, and can be punished hard in a lot of ways, like proxy hatches, fast nydus, baneling busts, spine crawler rush etc.
Problem is, all those punishments and responses are kinda circumstantial, dependent on maps, building placement, having scouting drones ready etc. There was no real universal way to punish it.
Now the mass expanding and droning is a general soft counter, but it requires you to be a Nestea to pull it off against the more aggressive 2 base all ins.
Now, I think I have found universal hard counter that doesn't take too much skill to pull off and probably can remove the forge FE from the standard protoss arsenal entirely, as any cheese should be.
Wait for it: it's the DERP build. All you need to do is throw down a gas as soon as you scout the forge FE, go lair with first 100 gas, and make an overseer as soon as lair is finished. Get your own expansions and drone hard all the while and scout his front with a few lings. Then around 6:00 you start adding more overseers, and at 6:30 you poke into his base and see what he wants to do. No matter what he is doing, mass gateways with cyber core spinning, robo, stargate, HT or DT ... having overseers at that time with enough energy can shut everything down hard with contaminate or just with detection in case of DT.
Do anything you like behind that. Roach pressure, nydus with ling, whatever. He won't be able to respond properly. You have full vision, and all he has is gateways to queue units up in and a few cannons. Indefinitely.
Too bad I didn't get to try it yet on ladder, because of me being random and forge fe not being too common for gold and plat players and against random. No opportunity.
But, forge FE means all the dangerous protoss tech is delayed and he has no early army. Which means you can safely go to fast lair and overseers and prevent protoss from ever getting anything he needs to put any pressure on you.
You do realise that cheese is a strategy that relies on your opponent not scouting it? And that FFE is a common build used by the pros that is always scouted by their opponent and isn't reliably defeated just because of it?
The idea behind your theorycraft is also ridiculous. Try consistently contaminating all the Protoss warpgates, I wish you luck. Overseers are expensive and do 0 dps. Just to delay one warp in cycle from a example 7 gate blink for 30 seconds you need 7 overseers, each costing you 50/100 (in addition to 100 for an ovvie). And contaminate has a 45 seconds cool down, which means you need 14 overseers to keep these 7 gates constantly contaminated. 1400 gas at 7-8 minute mark?
On August 08 2011 20:23 imbecile wrote: Heavy theorycrafting, so beware.
I always thought forge FE is macro cheese, and can be punished hard in a lot of ways, like proxy hatches, fast nydus, baneling busts, spine crawler rush etc.
Problem is, all those punishments and responses are kinda circumstantial, dependent on maps, building placement, having scouting drones ready etc. There was no real universal way to punish it.
Now the mass expanding and droning is a general soft counter, but it requires you to be a Nestea to pull it off against the more aggressive 2 base all ins.
Now, I think I have found universal hard counter that doesn't take too much skill to pull off and probably can remove the forge FE from the standard protoss arsenal entirely, as any cheese should be.
Wait for it: it's the DERP build. All you need to do is throw down a gas as soon as you scout the forge FE, go lair with first 100 gas, and make an overseer as soon as lair is finished. Get your own expansions and drone hard all the while and scout his front with a few lings. Then around 6:00 you start adding more overseers, and at 6:30 you poke into his base and see what he wants to do. No matter what he is doing, mass gateways with cyber core spinning, robo, stargate, HT or DT ... having overseers at that time with enough energy can shut everything down hard with contaminate or just with detection in case of DT.
Do anything you like behind that. Roach pressure, nydus with ling, whatever. He won't be able to respond properly. You have full vision, and all he has is gateways to queue units up in and a few cannons. Indefinitely.
Too bad I didn't get to try it yet on ladder, because of me being random and forge fe not being too common for gold and plat players and against random. No opportunity.
But, forge FE means all the dangerous protoss tech is delayed and he has no early army. Which means you can safely go to fast lair and overseers and prevent protoss from ever getting anything he needs to put any pressure on you.
You do realise that cheese is a strategy that relies on your opponent not scouting it? And that FFE is a common build used by the pros that is always scouted by their opponent and isn't reliably defeated just because of it?
The idea behind your theorycraft is also ridiculous. Try consistently contaminating all the Protoss warpgates, I wish you luck. Overseers are expensive and do 0 dps. Just to delay one warp in cycle from a example 7 gate blink for 30 seconds you need 7 overseers, each costing you 50/100 (in addition to 100 for an ovvie). And contaminate has a 45 seconds cool down, which means you need 14 overseers to keep these 7 gates constantly contaminated. 1400 gas at 7-8 minute mark?
you contaminate the warpgate research, not the gates lol.
On August 08 2011 20:23 imbecile wrote: Heavy theorycrafting, so beware.
I always thought forge FE is macro cheese, and can be punished hard in a lot of ways, like proxy hatches, fast nydus, baneling busts, spine crawler rush etc.
Problem is, all those punishments and responses are kinda circumstantial, dependent on maps, building placement, having scouting drones ready etc. There was no real universal way to punish it.
Now the mass expanding and droning is a general soft counter, but it requires you to be a Nestea to pull it off against the more aggressive 2 base all ins.
Now, I think I have found universal hard counter that doesn't take too much skill to pull off and probably can remove the forge FE from the standard protoss arsenal entirely, as any cheese should be.
Wait for it: it's the DERP build. All you need to do is throw down a gas as soon as you scout the forge FE, go lair with first 100 gas, and make an overseer as soon as lair is finished. Get your own expansions and drone hard all the while and scout his front with a few lings. Then around 6:00 you start adding more overseers, and at 6:30 you poke into his base and see what he wants to do. No matter what he is doing, mass gateways with cyber core spinning, robo, stargate, HT or DT ... having overseers at that time with enough energy can shut everything down hard with contaminate or just with detection in case of DT.
Do anything you like behind that. Roach pressure, nydus with ling, whatever. He won't be able to respond properly. You have full vision, and all he has is gateways to queue units up in and a few cannons. Indefinitely.
Too bad I didn't get to try it yet on ladder, because of me being random and forge fe not being too common for gold and plat players and against random. No opportunity.
But, forge FE means all the dangerous protoss tech is delayed and he has no early army. Which means you can safely go to fast lair and overseers and prevent protoss from ever getting anything he needs to put any pressure on you.
You do realise that cheese is a strategy that relies on your opponent not scouting it? And that FFE is a common build used by the pros that is always scouted by their opponent and isn't reliably defeated just because of it?
The idea behind your theorycraft is also ridiculous. Try consistently contaminating all the Protoss warpgates, I wish you luck. Overseers are expensive and do 0 dps. Just to delay one warp in cycle from a example 7 gate blink for 30 seconds you need 7 overseers, each costing you 50/100 (in addition to 100 for an ovvie). And contaminate has a 45 seconds cool down, which means you need 14 overseers to keep these 7 gates constantly contaminated. 1400 gas at 7-8 minute mark?
As has been already pointed out, you contaminate the cybercore, or the robo or the stargate. Not the gateways.
The earliest possible warpgate tech after forge FE is 6:40, but that requires you to cut all possible corners and units and is extremely unsafe. Usually warpgate doesn't finish before 8:00, very rarely before 7:30.
Which means my suggested gas timing is actually giving you a lot of slack to get the timing right. Starting to morph overseers at 6:00 and even earlier is not that hard. The protoss will have a few zealots and a few sentries as units when you start moving in with the overseers, and often the cyber core (and whatever followup tech they chose) isn't even covered by cannons. It's all ripe for the picking.
And I figured the timings out by looking at GSL games, so I'm pretty sure they work on all levels. The protoss won't even be able to scout it. All he will see is a fast lair, if that.
So, as I said before, if the protoss goes forge FE, all the tech he should ever have available is cannons and gateways, because overseers are comfortably out in time to shut down anything else for as long as it takes to kill him.
On August 08 2011 20:23 imbecile wrote: Heavy theorycrafting, so beware.
I always thought forge FE is macro cheese, and can be punished hard in a lot of ways, like proxy hatches, fast nydus, baneling busts, spine crawler rush etc.
Problem is, all those punishments and responses are kinda circumstantial, dependent on maps, building placement, having scouting drones ready etc. There was no real universal way to punish it.
Now the mass expanding and droning is a general soft counter, but it requires you to be a Nestea to pull it off against the more aggressive 2 base all ins.
Now, I think I have found universal hard counter that doesn't take too much skill to pull off and probably can remove the forge FE from the standard protoss arsenal entirely, as any cheese should be.
Wait for it: it's the DERP build. All you need to do is throw down a gas as soon as you scout the forge FE, go lair with first 100 gas, and make an overseer as soon as lair is finished. Get your own expansions and drone hard all the while and scout his front with a few lings. Then around 6:00 you start adding more overseers, and at 6:30 you poke into his base and see what he wants to do. No matter what he is doing, mass gateways with cyber core spinning, robo, stargate, HT or DT ... having overseers at that time with enough energy can shut everything down hard with contaminate or just with detection in case of DT.
Do anything you like behind that. Roach pressure, nydus with ling, whatever. He won't be able to respond properly. You have full vision, and all he has is gateways to queue units up in and a few cannons. Indefinitely.
Too bad I didn't get to try it yet on ladder, because of me being random and forge fe not being too common for gold and plat players and against random. No opportunity.
But, forge FE means all the dangerous protoss tech is delayed and he has no early army. Which means you can safely go to fast lair and overseers and prevent protoss from ever getting anything he needs to put any pressure on you.
First I wanted to make a quick remark about your name and how it's fitting for someone who thinks FFE is macro cheese....
Then I figured I'd respond with some content. So I have a question. Are you going lair on one base or two? If one base, what's to prevent toss from cannoning the bottom of your ramp once they see you're taking a late expo against a forge first build.
Also, in the time that you're getting gas and making overseers, why don't i just chrono some zeals and kill you? Or further let's say you do get overseers in time. Why don't i just make a few more cannons to prevent any busts and let my superior econ win the game for me in 5-6 minutes? The faster you take your gas as zerg, and the more you tech ...the more you hurt your long term economy. This is because you spend drones for gas, can't support more larva, delay queens and expos, etc....
I think there's one good thing you said though. You DO have almost full vision of a toss when he goes for a FFE. And with that you can scout his gas timings to determine his build and tip off your relative timings
Anyway, your theorycraft is bad. I personally think you're an imbecile for thinking FFE is macro cheese. Sorry i'm blunt. But nonetheless you hit upon one good point.
I've been using this strategy with great success, to the point I prefer facing Forge FE over gateway expansion builds on Shakuras. However, there's one map I've had a shitload of trouble with: Tal'darim Altar
Normally, depending on their opening I drone to either 70+ or 60+. If they are going for a gateway build or an agressive robo build I go for 60+, If it's a stargate build I reach max saturation very before any followup attack. However, the problem arises when I'm facing gateway builds on Tal'darim.
The problem is being able to scout these aggressive timings, but by halting drone production at around 60 you can keep making spines, roaches and zerglings even if you aren't sure they aren't committing to a huge push. This is exactly what Losira did and doing this even if the Protoss went for a third like Naniwa, he was able to use those units he made for defense to instead become the aggressor and either hurt or kill the Protoss. I've been doing the same thing, but on Tal'Darim it's impossible to pressure the Protoss because of how easy it is to defend your first three bases (a few forcefields blocks off any attack route). I've been trying to transition into mutas but it gets crushed by archon/HT transitions so that doesn't seem like an option. I'm clueless as to what to do.
tl;dr can't pressure protoss going for third instead of commiting to attack on tal'darim, what is best option when doing this strategy?
I've always felt that FFE is kind of cheesy. It pretty much autoloses to anyone who 6 pools, although the thing is that you can still hold off 6 pool with FFE, so it's kind of lame that Zerg has no aggressive options against FFE, while P or T can do things like 2 rax/gate against hatch first. It's probably just because the game isn't developed fully yet, but it is irritating that Zerg has no way to be aggressive to punish greediness, they can only try to be more greedier.
On the other hand, I think FFE is a bad build, and that a fast third or going super fast infestors will almost always beat FFE. I think 1 gate Expand and nexus first are much better builds, I almost feel that FFE will one day be seen as autolose (for P).
can't pressure protoss going for third instead of commiting to attack on tal'darim, what is best option when doing this strategy?
You should always be able to pressure Protoss going for a third, unless they are just taking a super fast third without even attempting to get an army, in which case you just grab a 4th before having lair.
That's why you need roaches with this build. As I look at it, you can either defend with mass spine/queen, or mass roach/ling/queen. While I'm probably the biggest antifan of roaches, I would say this is one of the few times they are amazing, as spines really hurts your drone count (especially if you need to be making 10+), and massing ling/roach as defense means you can deny Protoss third. From there you go straight to hive, really.
But if you can't deny the third, take a 4th and 5th and get hive tech immediately.
As has been already pointed out, you contaminate the cybercore, or the robo or the stargate. Not the gateways.
The earliest possible warpgate tech after forge FE is 6:40, but that requires you to cut all possible corners and units and is extremely unsafe. Usually warpgate doesn't finish before 8:00, very rarely before 7:30.
Which means my suggested gas timing is actually giving you a lot of slack to get the timing right. Starting to morph overseers at 6:00 and even earlier is not that hard. The protoss will have a few zealots and a few sentries as units when you start moving in with the overseers, and often the cyber core (and whatever followup tech they chose) isn't even covered by cannons. It's all ripe for the picking.
And I figured the timings out by looking at GSL games, so I'm pretty sure they work on all levels. The protoss won't even be able to scout it. All he will see is a fast lair, if that.
So, as I said before, if the protoss goes forge FE, all the tech he should ever have available is cannons and gateways, because overseers are comfortably out in time to shut down anything else for as long as it takes to kill him.
If you delay the warpgate tech, then your investment in overseers/early lair tech/gas easily compensates for the later warpgate. What stops the toss from just taking a third while building an army from his gateways? Or just straight up killing you with chrono'ed zealot/sentry (as you spent so much gas on overseers)?
I've always felt that FFE is kind of cheesy. It pretty much autoloses to anyone who 6 pools, although the thing is that you can still hold off 6 pool with FFE, so it's kind of lame that Zerg has no aggressive options against FFE, while P or T can do things like 2 rax/gate against hatch first. It's probably just because the game isn't developed fully yet, but it is irritating that Zerg has no way to be aggressive to punish greediness, they can only try to be more greedier.
On the other hand, I think FFE is a bad build, and that a fast third or going super fast infestors will almost always beat FFE. I think 1 gate Expand and nexus first are much better builds, I almost feel that FFE will one day be seen as autolose (for P).
How does FFE auto lose to a 6 pool? It is the safest opening against it. You contradict yourself in your statement, it auto loses but it can still hold it? ^^
You are entitled to think whatever you like, but let the rest of us just stick to what we know from pro games. You may want to tell the likes of HuK and MC just how bad you think FFE is, I am sure they will stop using it if you tell them.
Nexus first is only good if you scout the Zerg taking his fast hatch. It loses to a fast pool. 1 gate FE is good, but still slower than FFE.
Nexus first is only good if you scout the Zerg taking his fast hatch. It loses to a fast pool. 1 gate FE is good, but still slower than FFE.
Not exactly. Protosses can still safely Nexus first vs a gas/pool or standard pool timing (14/15) and get a cannon up in time before lings arrive. Unless you are talking about a hella fast pool like 6/7/8/11 pool? In that case, cheese > nexus.
Then I figured I'd respond with some content. So I have a question. Are you going lair on one base or two?
Two bases is required. That's one of the reasons I think the DERP build is a good strategy against forge fe (the other of course being the delay in tech and army for protoss). I myself tried it with 14pool 16 hatch and gas at 18 before overlord (only against computer). The earlier pools should be even more comfortable, because of the earlier queen.
On August 09 2011 09:09 Aletheia27 wrote:
Also, in the time that you're getting gas and making overseers, why don't i just chrono some zeals and kill you? Or further let's say you do get overseers in time. Why don't i just make a few more cannons to prevent any busts and let my superior econ win the game for me in 5-6 minutes? The faster you take your gas as zerg, and the more you tech ...the more you hurt your long term economy. This is because you spend drones for gas, can't support more larva, delay queens and expos, etc....
2 queens and 1-2 spine and drones are enough to defend against a few late zealots from 2 gates. And if he gets more gates and zealots before the warp gate tech finishies, he wasted the whole point of the forge FE. If he really gets numbers you just make a quick wall with evos and the zealots stay out.
And yes, I do think forge FE is macro cheese. The problem is, few people do so, so they aren't willing to use the radical measues you need to apply for defeating cheese.
That said, if you don't like putting down one gas early in response to the early scout, you can wait until he takes his gas, and then put down 2 gas, and you are still in time. But early gas is a staple of many zerg builds so I don't really see the problem to use it for lair instead of speedlings, whcih you won't need early against forge FE.
Not exactly. Protosses can still safely Nexus first vs a gas/pool or standard pool timing (14/15) and get a cannon up in time before lings arrive. Unless you are talking about a hella fast pool like 6/7/8/11 pool? In that case, cheese > nexus.
Yes, by fast pool I mean 6-11 pool. 14 pool is becoming less and less popular from what I can see anyway. 9-11 pool is not necessarily a cheese either as you get an earlier queen and can catch up with drones (correct me if I am wrong).
On August 09 2011 17:47 malthias wrote: If you delay the warpgate tech, then your investment in overseers/early lair tech/gas easily compensates for the later warpgate. What stops the toss from just taking a third while building an army from his gateways? Or just straight up killing you with chrono'ed zealot/sentry (as you spent so much gas on overseers)?
To take a third he needs enough units to move out with to protect it warping. A pair of lings at his front will see anything moving out. If you see a probe moving out you can kill it easily. Even with zealot protection it is very tough to get the probe safely to the 3rd and drop the nexus. He will need at least one stalker to move out with. And you sill have more than enough time after seeing him move out like that to make more lings and shut the 3rd down.
He can't have a 3rd while making an army. He needs the army to take the 3rd.
Also, I don't know why you think spending 200 gas by the 6 minute mark is much. 100 for the lair, 100 for the first overseer. You incrementally add more, as many as you need. 4 is enough to shut down any single building completely.
The killing you with a few zealots I addressed. I don't think he can get enough zealots before I can get 2 queens and 2 spines. And nothing prevents me when I see him getting no sentries and many zealots to throw down a baneling nest with my early gas, destroy his zealot push and then baneling bust him.
How does FFE auto lose to a 6 pool? It is the safest opening against it. You contradict yourself in your statement, it auto loses but it can still hold it? ^^
I'm saying it's possible to hold 6 pool with FFE, although now that I think about it I think this has to be mistakes on zerg's micro maybe. Maybe not. I should edit my post to be a bit more clear.
I think the reason people FFE because Zerg isn't comfortable with taking a fast third due to newer stargate and mass warpgate play. But I think in the future, the FFE will be seen as bad.
I mean I could be totally wrong. It's still popular in BW. I just personally think FFE will be seen as bad. Maybe a way to look at it is "How often do you see Losira/Nestea lose against FFE?" Yes, I know they are Losira and Nestea, but on the other hand, they make FFE look like a build order loss. That, and coupled with *personal*, and personal experience meaning exactly that, I feel like the FFE is a horrible build. I think 1 gate FE and even 3 gate sentry expand is almost as economic, but denies Zerg's third completely as well as put on pressure that Zerg struggles with even on just 2 base.
I know I'm just Diamond, but on the other hand, I *never* lose to FFE unless the Protoss grabs a fast third (of course, I respond with hive/4th immediately as well as pressure) and somehow the game goes on for 40 minutes and I lose an advantage to better play in the endgame, or he sneak attacks me with something like DT or mass gate when I was 100% sure he was doing something else.
Not exactly. Protosses can still safely Nexus first vs a gas/pool or standard pool timing (14/15) and get a cannon up in time before lings arrive. Unless you are talking about a hella fast pool like 6/7/8/11 pool? In that case, cheese > nexus.
Depends on the map. Nexus first also beats 6 pool, due to how many probes you'll have. I don't think there's any build P can do that will lose to 6 pool, unless they maybe don't wall in and try to simcity instead or if the map is particularly small. On maps as large as taldarim, for example, Nexus first wins, but on a map like Xel Naga Caverns, it will probably lose, especialyl if Zerg brings drones.
Yes, by fast pool I mean 6-11 pool. 14 pool is becoming less and less popular from what I can see anyway. 9-11 pool is not necessarily a cheese either as you get an earlier queen and can catch up with drones (correct me if I am wrong).
As discussed in the "Zerg Openers Thread", 11p/18h is actually the 2nd most economic opening for Zerg, ahead of 16h/15p but behind 14h/15p. Personally I strongly dislike 11/18, because you don't get speed (meaning the fast pool for aggression is pointless, as well as leave you unable to capitalize on situations where you may want speed or banelings early game), and if early aggression comes, your build gets pretty screwed (I think when 2 rax hits is when you need to make 15 overlord, you may end up supply blocked based on early aggression and wondering if you need an overlord or not, or you may waste money on an overlord when you shouldnt like against 6 pool). The advantage is the queen and larva inject, so you can mass lings or drones though.
Personally I like 14/14 the most in ZvP. If you aren't going to default with roaches (i hate roaches zvp), then you need at least something to protect yourself and queen/spine hurts drones too much, and lings can at least counterattack and give you critical scouting information that roaches and overlords can't.
Losira held off a 2 base 7 gate push with 60 drones
This differs greatly from the example against Hongun where Nestea had his third fully saturated (against stargate pressure) It'd be nice to see some analysis against various build orders. Like, against a very fast +1 5/6 gate, a blink 7 gate, stargate pressure. etc, and how many drones they can build (and still be safe) along with what you need to defend. One thing I've had problems with is the roach warren timing. I want to get on three bases and then go infestor/ling into infestor/ling/baneling/drop, but you don't have infestors out to hold a 6 gate, and lings don't cut it: you need a roach warren. On the other hand, if he goes for a 7 gate with blink, very fast infestor/ling is great.
On August 06 2011 03:15 KimJongChill wrote: I love this style, it really feels like the way Zerg is meant to be played. Is it really possible to hold 2 base sentry heavy warp gate with just roach ling? Also, I'm reading about double stargate, but I've never faced it yet. How do I deal with it?
I was wondering about this too. You can't really hold 2 stargate with just spores and queens if they decide to build voidrays, it just gets too much. I wonder if you could delay with spore/queen until you have infestors out? Or do you think hydras are necessary?
To take a third he needs enough units to move out with to protect it warping. A pair of lings at his front will see anything moving out. If you see a probe moving out you can kill it easily. Even with zealot protection it is very tough to get the probe safely to the 3rd and drop the nexus. He will need at least one stalker to move out with. And you sill have more than enough time after seeing him move out like that to make more lings and shut the 3rd down.
He can't have a 3rd while making an army. He needs the army to take the 3rd.
Also, I don't know why you think spending 200 gas by the 6 minute mark is much. 100 for the lair, 100 for the first overseer. You incrementally add more, as many as you need. 4 is enough to shut down any single building completely.
The killing you with a few zealots I addressed. I don't think he can get enough zealots before I can get 2 queens and 2 spines. And nothing prevents me when I see him getting no sentries and many zealots to throw down a baneling nest with my early gas, destroy his zealot push and then baneling bust him.
Pure theorycraft is just that - and it clogs the thread. Gates are not that much slower than warpgates - why do you think that toss cannot take an early third with the army from gateways when the zerg invested in early lair (weaker economy, smaller army), early gas (weaker economy, smaller army), has no ling speed (weaker army) and uses his gas for overseers (less/no roach/banelings)? You make it sound as if you can delay the warp gate research forever, where all you can reasonably hope for is delaying it by 1-2 minutes max.
I'm saying it's possible to hold 6 pool with FFE, although now that I think about it I think this has to be mistakes on zerg's micro maybe. Maybe not. I should edit my post to be a bit more clear.
No, it is not a mistake in zergs micro. You need a forge to defend 6 pool, FFE is the only opening where you put it down blindly, so even if you scout zerg last on a 4 player map you still have a chance to hold it. Please stop spreading misinformation - FFE does not auto lose to a 6 pool.
I think the reason people FFE because Zerg isn't comfortable with taking a fast third due to newer stargate and mass warpgate play. But I think in the future, the FFE will be seen as bad.
Strategy Forum is not a place to theorycraft. Prove that it is bad, then write about it.
I know I'm just Diamond, but on the other hand, I *never* lose to FFE unless the Protoss grabs a fast third (of course, I respond with hive/4th immediately as well as pressure) and somehow the game goes on for 40 minutes and I lose an advantage to better play in the endgame, or he sneak attacks me with something like DT or mass gate when I was 100% sure he was doing something else.
More power to you if you often win against it. It still does not make it a cheese and does not give you an advantage just because you scout it.
Every time I play like that, I get crushed :/ Just like Ret's macro mode. I think this really is the best choice for the top level players, lesser players like me are not suited for this imo.
I'm saying it's possible to hold 6 pool with FFE, although now that I think about it I think this has to be mistakes on zerg's micro maybe. Maybe not. I should edit my post to be a bit more clear.
No, it is not a mistake in zergs micro. You need a forge to defend 6 pool, FFE is the only opening where you put it down blindly, so even if you scout zerg last on a 4 player map you still have a chance to hold it. Please stop spreading misinformation - FFE does not auto lose to a 6 pool.
Forge is not neccessary to defend 6 pool. Just a second gate and good probe micro is more than enough. However if you happened to go forge first, then depending on the map, you either make a pylon +cannon ASAP in the main mineral line, or else go for a complete walloff. Pretty impossible for zerg to take a freewin to be honest if protoss knows timings/responses.
NesTea used a build with a similar core idea on crossfire vs 3 gate sentry expand where he had an early 3rd queen to spread creep to the third to allow a fast third. The common features were the roach warren and evo chamber going down at the same time, and the gas timing.
No, it is not a mistake in zergs micro. You need a forge to defend 6 pool, FFE is the only opening where you put it down blindly, so even if you scout zerg last on a 4 player map you still have a chance to hold it. Please stop spreading misinformation - FFE does not auto lose to a 6 pool.
Don't be mean. It depends on the map if FFE beats 6 pool. Shakuras will beat 6 pool, maps like Antiga Shipyards won't (small to medium and large natural). There's a thread about how some of the new maps are very FFE unfriendly in regards to early pooling.
Strategy Forum is not a place to theorycraft. Prove that it is bad, then write about it.
This is a discussion thread. Sorry we don't have the statistics to please you, but Losira and Nestea showed more than just theorycraft on how to beat FFE every time.
I personally believe FFE will be one day seen as a bad build, either replaced by more conservative expansions, Nexus first, or 1 gate expand. Zerg taking a fast third is just unstoppable for Protoss.
More power to you if you often win against it. It still does not make it a cheese and does not give you an advantage just because you scout it.
On certain maps, ie non large ones with small chokes like Shakuras, if you blindly know they are FFE, you can autowin with early pools (I don't think 6 pool, but things like 10 pool, as discussed in that other thread).
I was wondering about this too. You can't really hold 2 stargate with just spores and queens if they decide to build voidrays, it just gets too much. I wonder if you could delay with spore/queen until you have infestors out? Or do you think hydras are necessary?
You can definitely hold double stargate with spore/queen until your tech arrives (Spire, hydra, infestors). You can definitely delay with spores. Eventually your going to need to address the fact none of your units shoot up if you want to kill the Protoss.
The hardest part of this build is just scouting. DT/Stargate requires a response that hurts you economy with static D, while mass gate requires you to purely drone up and then defend with mass units until you can get your tech of choice out.
On July 27 2011 03:11 CecilSunkure wrote: Basically I think they're carrying over the paradigm from BW that Zerg wants to do things as late as possible. You want to order your lurkers at the last second, morph your sunkens at the last second, especially in ZvZ when the people would go to 3 base without a pool, because they felt whoever did first would be slightly behind.
So if you can delay as much as you can without dieing, you'll reap the benefits of having more drones -without dieing (or losing too many drones to equalize or fall behind). I always have the toughest time against Zerg players that understand what to look for in order to do this safely.
The hardest part of going fast third base vs ffe is scouting the tech and the warpgate timing of the toss and react appropriately knowing what to do and when to do it : 1. stop making drones and start producing units 2. get statics defenses (spores or sunks) 3. tech to lair because hatch tech is not enough to push back the attack 4, know the right transition
Those are the ffe follow-ups that I know well/am quite comfortable to deal with : - warpgate rush (beginning to be more popular) : obviously don't get lair. 2 spines or more at nat and thrid and roach/speedling asap without saturating the third. Transition to whatever tech you like or go kill him if you have enough of an army left. - a late blink stalker all-in with +2 and obs (really common) : saturate three bases mineral wise, get three gases, lair tech for roach speed, +1 melee and a macro hatch with the additional queen and start producing pure roach ling at roughly 10 min. Transition into roach/ling/banes drops to be able to harass and have a versatile enough army, later add infester hive tech and broods. - light stargate pressure (one stargate) (often encountered but imo really weak) : get 2 spores at each bases, produce on or 2 more queen and continue droning, get lair tech and spire with melee upgrades to transition into muta-ling to regain the map control and laugh at his low phoenixes count while he try to transition into robo tech. - void ray/gateway all-in (really rare but very strong if properly executed) : continual queen production with a lot of static d and roach/ling (cf losira vs trickster in the july gsl). Then proceed to go kill him with roach ling or at least deny the third for a long long time. - heavy stargate pressure with high phoenix count (to me this is the hardest because you loose any map control for a long time) : full saturation, 3 spores/bases, more queens, hydra if necessary but ideally none, get some roach to deter zealot harass at third. Then take a fourth, tech to spire and infestor to get corrupter/roach/infester and later transition into broodlords.
But one follow-up that I don't know what to do against is robo tech rush to colossi. I feel that you can't safely tech to lair without having enough of an army to be able to engage the first 2 colossi push in open field (not when he is already at your third), so that would indicate full roach/ling production with +1 ranged starting at ~8 (maybe before). But then as the army grow if he don't push the low tech become a huge liability because you need corrupters and speed roach (maybe even infesters) to deal with a deathball with 4+ colossi. Does anybody know the correct way to deal with that ?
Also do you have encountered other things ? Do you think that the reactions I exposed are correct ?
Forge is not neccessary to defend 6 pool. Just a second gate and good probe micro is more than enough. However if you happened to go forge first, then depending on the map, you either make a pylon +cannon ASAP in the main mineral line, or else go for a complete walloff. Pretty impossible for zerg to take a freewin to be honest if protoss knows timings/responses.
You are right of course. I phrased it the wrong way, forge is the easiest way to hold 6 pool, not the only one.
Don't be mean. It depends on the map if FFE beats 6 pool. Shakuras will beat 6 pool, maps like Antiga Shipyards won't (small to medium and large natural). There's a thread about how some of the new maps are very FFE unfriendly in regards to early pooling.
I am sorry if you feel offended, it was not my intention. All I did was point out to you and people you may be misleading, that FFE does not auto lose to a 6 pool, it is actually the safest opening against it, so your whole initial statement is wrong. Obviously you can still win with a 6 pool if you are scouted last on a 4 player map, but it is a coin flip and it is still possible to hold it. (hint: you do not drop/cancel a nexus if you scout a 6 pool)
This is a discussion thread. Sorry we don't have the statistics to please you, but Losira and Nestea showed more than just theorycraft on how to beat FFE every time.
I personally believe FFE will be one day seen as a bad build, either replaced by more conservative expansions, Nexus first, or 1 gate expand. Zerg taking a fast third is just unstoppable for Protoss.
I probably went too far with my critique because of your previous false statements - you were clearly stating that it is your opinion only.
FFE is still a very common build in pro games, so the pros obviously do not share your view. Personally I think FFE is always going to be viable on maps with defendable natural expansions. You still get a forge before gate in Nexus first builds, so if FFE ever becomes irrelevant, then it will most likely be the same for Nexus first. It would be a sad day when only one viable economic build remained for Protoss in PvZ.
On certain maps, ie non large ones with small chokes like Shakuras, if you blindly know they are FFE, you can autowin with early pools (I don't think 6 pool, but things like 10 pool, as discussed in that other thread).
Again, this is not true. What stops the Protoss from completing a wall off and dropping a cannon if he scouts your early pool/lings going his way? You seem to use the word autowin a lot without any backup for your statements.
Mass warpgate timing will hit at 9:30 at the earliest. Usually they are walking out of their base at 9:45 and on creep with a pylon at 10:20.
I think a lot of fast DT and stargate comes around 7:30 if they fast expand.
Again, this is not true. What stops the Protoss from completing a wall off and dropping a cannon if he scouts your early pool/lings going his way? You seem to use the word autowin a lot without any backup for your statements.
It's discussed in a recent thread about how medium map + wide open choke = FFE will lose to early pool. I believe on certain maps they are too small to react in time like that and the choke is too large to wall off.
@Beliail88 - literally every single statement you're making in this thread is incorrect and demonstrates your inexperience with high level PvZ FFE. I was going to respond to everything but others such as malthias have already corrected you on the main things.
Sadly my post didn't get that much attention. It hurts me a little because I had the weakness to believe that there was decent content in it. But it seems that the passion/debate is focused somewhere else in this thread.
In a last resort attempt to get some replies I will do a shameless bump-thread. I hope that the gods of TL will forgive me.
On August 09 2011 21:45 houstil wrote: The hardest part of going fast third base vs ffe is scouting the tech and the warpgate timing of the toss and react appropriately knowing what to do and when to do it : 1. stop making drones and start producing units 2. get statics defenses (spores or sunks) 3. tech to lair because hatch tech is not enough to push back the attack 4, know the right transition
Those are the ffe follow-ups that I know well/am quite comfortable to deal with : - warpgate rush (beginning to be more popular) : obviously don't get lair. 2 spines or more at nat and thrid and roach/speedling asap without saturating the third. Transition to whatever tech you like or go kill him if you have enough of an army left. - a late blink stalker all-in with +2 and obs (really common) : saturate three bases mineral wise, get three gases, lair tech for roach speed, +1 melee and a macro hatch with the additional queen and start producing pure roach ling at roughly 10 min. Transition into roach/ling/banes drops to be able to harass and have a versatile enough army, later add infester hive tech and broods. - light stargate pressure (one stargate) (often encountered but imo really weak) : get 2 spores at each bases, produce on or 2 more queen and continue droning, get lair tech and spire with melee upgrades to transition into muta-ling to regain the map control and laugh at his low phoenixes count while he try to transition into robo tech. - void ray/gateway all-in (really rare but very strong if properly executed) : continual queen production with a lot of static d and roach/ling (cf losira vs trickster in the july gsl). Then proceed to go kill him with roach ling or at least deny the third for a long long time. - heavy stargate pressure with high phoenix count (to me this is the hardest because you loose any map control for a long time) : full saturation, 3 spores/bases, more queens, hydra if necessary but ideally none, get some roach to deter zealot harass at third. Then take a fourth, tech to spire and infestor to get corrupter/roach/infester and later transition into broodlords.
But one follow-up that I don't know what to do against is robo tech rush to colossi. I feel that you can't safely tech to lair without having enough of an army to be able to engage the first 2 colossi push in open field (not when he is already at your third), so that would indicate full roach/ling production with +1 ranged starting at ~8 (maybe before). But then as the army grow if he don't push the low tech become a huge liability because you need corrupters and speed roach (maybe even infesters) to deal with a deathball with 4+ colossi. Does anybody know the correct way to deal with that ?
Also do you have encountered other things ? Do you think that the reactions I exposed are correct ?
^ you should include the timings. It's not really that helpful of a post. I would say warp gate leaves the base at 9:30 earliest, and since you kept a FFE trapped in his base and scouted to make sure no probe is out, you can delay it so the push isn't really hitting until about 11:00. Starget 7:30, DT 8:00.
Against robo tech to colossi you just need to mass stuff and spread lots of creep. It's just like when terran does his midgame siege tank push. All your units get owned by siege tanks, there's no counter to his tank/rine, but you win by having a ton more production on 2 base Z vs 2 base T in early-midgame, and you just completely swarm the guy.
With a FFE opening you just simply adjust accordingly (more air if you went spire, NP fast if you went infestors, no more hydras if you went roach/hydra, 1/1/1 if you stay on hatch tech).
I disagree with some of your reactions. 2 Spores at each base - 6 spores, is 450 minerals + 300 minerals (6 drones) + mining time of 6 drones lost, that's 750 minerals+. Then 1 extra queen for each hatch, that's over 1.15 minerals lost just against a single stargate.
If you are 'certain' the opponent is going heavy stargate, and then he's actually going mass gateway, you will undoubtedly lose because your drone count will be too low. Against stargate it's okay to lose a few drones because it also delays Protoss' colossi and army size. So I would say just 1 spore at the base most likely to be attacked first, and another round of queens. Personally, I make mass queen when going 3 hatch so I can spread creep and connect my future fourth ASAP. With queens you can usually hold off the first stargate units, and then make spores when you see the air coming, and maybe lose 1 or 2 queens when they morph at worst.
So yea, your stargate reaction is overreacting. Spores are very quick to morph, and you can move them. You want to throw them as late as possible, and generally you can throw them down when the stargate first gets there. If he's doing something kinda gay like hiding his units and denying scouting, and then suddenly busts with 10 Phoenix+VR at the 11:45 mark, you should have been able to scout by then or put aggression on P to force his hand.
If he's going double stargate you'll need infestors ASAP, and make lots of spores. It's fine to put mass spore against this, but identify it's double stargate first before doing that. If your wrong, a mass gateway push will ruin you.
@Beliail88 - literally every single statement you're making in this thread is incorrect and demonstrates your inexperience with high level PvZ FFE. I was going to respond to everything but others such as malthias have already corrected you on the main things.
Also you contradict yourself a lot.
I'm glad you took the time out to explain to me, someone who comes here for advice generally rather than give it, what I said that was wrong.
I understand about the 6 pool, and decided not to edit since people had responded to it. It was just what I had read in another thread about certain maps, ie antiga shipyards, being very good for early pool vs FFE. But if it makes you feel better, sure, i was wrong, you are right, 6 pool is bad vP FFE. Whatever. Sorry to bring up a discussion from another thread.
Strategy Forum is not a place to theorycraft. Prove that it is bad, then write about it.
I stated it was my personal opinion that FFE is a bad build. Asking me to 'prove it' is pretty ridiculous, but I already explained my reasoning.
The only way Protoss can win vs fast third Zerg with a FFE is by opening a way Zerg doesn't expect, which is obviuosly a big problem due to Zerg's lack of hatch tech scouting options.
It's not really that popular to fast third against FFE, or at least not in the 'true sense' like Nestea/Losira where they take a super fast lair. I think most Zerg took a lair before 80 supply with fast thirds, so I guess you could say the metagame wasn't there yet.
I just envision a day. That is all. Because if Zerg knows what P is opening, and he goes third hatch vs FFE, there is no way he can lose. He will easily hold off the P push, and then deny their third. P can only win if he surprises Zerg, which admittedly is not the hardest thing to do, but the highest level Zerg, know very well what's going on and how to efficiently prepare even if they don't.
I also think composition wise, the Zerg metagame has changed a lot. With recent patches, roach/hydra/corruptor isn't the only option for Zerg, which pretty much could be beat by P just sitting on 2-3 bases, turtling up, and moving out like Cruncher, unless there are glaring macro mistakes by P or the Z seriously outplays P with harass. I would say that the game was imbalanced before the recent patches, actually, however I think Zerg also now realize how good hatch tech is vP when on 3 base.
Curious what zerg players think is the best response to the fast +1 Zealot timing (hits like ~6:30 or so) when you go for fast 3rds vs FFE. If I do it correctly I've always been able to deny the 3rd or come out ahead in this situation, either in probe count (b/c of all the lings you had to make) or damage done.
On September 21 2011 03:21 darkscream wrote: yeah, its unfortunate that most blizz maps are designed to FORCE an army to kill rocks to take a third.
Totally agree. Relevant for all races (even T, who get it slightly easier by building a CC next to the rocks).
Quite often I feel forced to skip the natural 3rd, and take the closest without rocks, because I'm not in a situation to kill xyz. Of course this is my own fault for not planning ahead to take an expo.
Notice it mostly in PvT, as the timing of the 3rd depends on how my first two engagements go.
On September 21 2011 03:21 darkscream wrote: yeah, its unfortunate that most blizz maps are designed to FORCE an army to kill rocks to take a third.
Well, considering recent results in the GSL (toss losses), they seem to think this should be the case as well. During this past week, the Tal Darim GSL used had rocks at the third (people cried heresy about this when Blizz added the rocks for the ladder), as did the new GSL Terminus.
EPT![[image loading]](http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/drone.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.carameldream.net/Starcraft/NesteaVSHongun.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/5/5e/Lair.png/250px-Lair.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/4/4d/Evolution_Chamber.png/250px-Evolution_Chamber.png)
3 Hatch 1 Gas
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-224321.jpg)
. now im gonna be scared to play PvZ
