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So today I was laddering on shattered temple when i saw what i thought was a 1 gas barracks expand. Turns out I read the info wrong adn it was actually a reactor hellion expand, something I only found out as 6 hellions killed my ling at the xelnaga.
With just moments to spare, I frantically threw down an evo and a spine at the bottom of my ramp and Inadvertently broke the ladder. to my surprised, my drone army (and it was my whole army) was able to escape up the ramp while my opponents hellions got hit by spinecrawlers and queens.
ladies and gents, I present: the hellion filter
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zC3gz.png)
This works on a variety of maps, I have only tested it out on 4 but it seems that any map with a standard sized ramp will work with this
Metalopolis:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BwjqE.png)
Xelnaga*:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qyoss.png)
Slag Pits* :
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MSIwh.png)
For bigger Maps:
Taldarim. (if you are planning to go for destiny style fast double upgrades then you can do this anywhere lol)
![[image loading]](http://piclair.com/data/05cuc.jpg) (creds to nicke10)
More Variations
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=246215¤tpage=3#41
Scrap station
![[image loading]](http://piclair.com/data/3e87t.jpg) (creds to catgroove)
So pretty much its the same idea as the terran low ground wall off, except that because you are using a spine crawler, it creates enough of a space for drones/ ings to get through but not a big enough one for hellions to do so.
I hope that with this post we can make this strategy more widespread and go back to the days of terrans crying about how underpowered hellions are.
* There are many maps where the creep from your expo won't naturally cover your ramp. In these cases you need to lay down a creep tumor within the first 75 queen energy if you hope to have it up in time for reactor hellion pushes
But what if i get dropped in the main??
same idea, hellions cant get out any more easily than they can get in, so as long as you keep all your drones on the opposite side of the wall as the hellions you are A-OK.
But Nickbot, what if they drop hellions at my main AND the expansion AT THE SAME TIME???
ok well your pretty much screwed, but if you manage to deal with one group of hellions with queens and lings while simultaneously moving your drones to the side of your base with the now deceased hellions without losing too many drones, youll be A-OK
Creds to Banchan for being a bro and helping me test this out on various maps
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Seems like the best idea would be to put the spine there and place an emergency evo chamber when hellions come rolling in. Hellions shouldn't be able to kill a mutating evo chamber. I'm assuming that roaches and any other unit other than drones and lings can't pass through the wall?
Would be easy enough to move the spine and cancel the evo once you either get roaches out or clear out the hellions and are somehow safe from them. Pretty interesting, especially if you are able to read the hellion opening early on. Then you can use your one queen (since the main queen probably can't make it through the wall) to pick off the hellions or at least scare them away.
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The big problem with zerg wall ins is that if terran sieges near your natural, it becomes very difficult for the zerg army to break that tank line unless you have broodlords with lots of corrupters.
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It actually works quite well if you leave room for a queen on hold position to complete the block.
The drones can ghost through, and then you can get both lings and roaches out without any problem or having to mvoe the spine crawler.
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fml, oh well containing the zerg to one base till muta/roach is good enough for me i suppose.
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This is really cool. I want to reiterate what Emporio said, it's probably best to build a spine there and throw down the evo if you see/highly expect hellions.
I love seeing more importance put into building placement as part of strategy <3
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If you really have to you can just kill the evo chamber... and the spine uproots..
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On July 22 2011 06:49 babyToSS wrote:
The big problem with zerg wall ins is that if terran sieges near your natural, it becomes very difficult for the zerg army to break that tank line unless you have broodlords with lots of corrupters.
If the terran seiging outside your base, you are probably in a lot of trouble already lol. Of course this wall can be made pretty fast. Considering that evo chamber and spine are created at an insanely fast rate. If you scout hellion, you probably have enough time to set this up.
Oh this is cute 
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I like this new innovation into the world of sim-city :D
This works if you can move your drones in time, but if the hellions catch you as the drones are running away (meaning they may be stacked and will be in a single file line), it'll be super painful ><
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I see this more as a way to cut corners in the early mid game when you are still droning up and relying on speedlings for defense, rather than an actual simcity for the later game stages.
So to talk about tanks is a bit moot.
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On July 22 2011 06:49 babyToSS wrote:
The big problem with zerg wall ins is that if terran sieges near your natural, it becomes very difficult for the zerg army to break that tank line unless you have broodlords with lots of corrupters.
well the thing is if your opponent is opening hellions you aren't going to be sieged any time soon. if this is a problem by the time you get sieged, then you'll lose an evo chamber (oh no), but even then the biggest victim there is your creep spread because if you are engaging where terran is inches to your natural then you have much bigger problems than losing an evo chamber.
This works if you can move your drones in time, but if the hellions catch you as the drones are running away (meaning they may be stacked and will be in a single file line), it'll be super painful ><
yeah i was thinking that and it would really suck, esp with blue flames. the best answer i have to that is to have enough map control to see the hellions before they arrive at your base and move your drones preemptively
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If Zerg's successfully deny all harassment. They just kinda win.
Here's hoping you guys never defend drops!
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can't you already block hellions with a single queen on the ramp?
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If your already moving your drones up three ramp, you can select the last one, and, build an evo chamber beside the other two, soaking up the damage and, protecting the rest of your drones. Can cancel after threats over
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On July 22 2011 07:06 pt wrote:
can't you already block hellions with a single queen on the ramp?
Nah but with 2.
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You can block hellions with 1 queen at ramp, you dont need 2 Used it very often, and it's good way to shut down runbies, you always have 1 queen. Great post from OP, fun thing is only hellions are blocked, really pro filter. Keep up good work!
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Best thing about this is you can make the wall after spotting hellions. You most likely already have a spine crawler. Just move the spine and make a evo.
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This is super cool.
I think it might be worth it to build your evo in that position then have the spine out of the way and just move it into place if hellions are coming, it's not like its going to die to hellions while rooting.
That might block ultras later but until then you'd be fine... seems safer to just use that as your evo placement as its not unrealistic to have the building area blocked by a unit before you can get the building down...
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On July 22 2011 07:10 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:06 pt wrote:
can't you already block hellions with a single queen on the ramp? Nah but with 2.
Rhetorical question. I was implying that you can block ramps with 1 queen so this is probably useless.
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On July 22 2011 07:39 pt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:10 aebriol wrote:On July 22 2011 07:06 pt wrote:
can't you already block hellions with a single queen on the ramp? Nah but with 2. Rhetorical question. I was implying that you can block ramps with 1 queen so this is probably useless.
even tho this is true i REALLY think this is a great tool for zerg
yea you can block with 1 queen, but it's ridiculous how many hellions i can get out with a reactor and if i'm going double reactor then it's even more insane
if he just has 1 queen i can kill it with a couple volleys and take minimal damage, whereas if he has a spine i cant do shit
so yea, i think this is a really sweet find
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Very nice find. This will make my life alot easier vs gas first hellion expands that hit with hellions before I have ling speed - which has been giving me alot of trouble lately. Super sleek since you need evo's anyway (we do love that super fast +1) and the spine can always be moved to an expansion later.
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oh, and 1 more thing 90 percent of the time terran opens with hellions he goes into banshee cloak or not cloak so already having a evo chamber is even more nifty
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This is the best idea i have ever heard of. I have been planning on trying NEXline's playstyle which is mass mutas and the rest in zerglings, you do not get banelings and if you do it is only a couple.
I would try this on the ladder but blue flame hellions would completely counter me before i got mutas out.
If it was just normal hellions i use a queen to block the ramp, but if they get blue flame it can kill a queen and just eat all my drones and then come in with a huge mech push and i would die (GoOdy's style of TvZ)
I have been wondering how to stay alive vs blue flame without going roaches. This is it.
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Rhetorical question. I was implying that you can block ramps with 1 queen so this is probably useless.
your implying that you will always have your queen prepared when hellions arrive, which you wont because that is a reactionary technique while you can use this wall off pre-emptively. There are definitely benefits to keeping your queens from dealing with hellions (not missing larvae injects, not getting queens killed, etc), and a spine crawler has much higher dps, armor, and hp than a queen.
either way just because you can solve a problem one way doesn't mean that any other solution are useless.
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This is actually a really cool find, surprised it's not receiving more praise. Very good when you only have lings and queens early game, obviously not needed if you roach early.
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Hahaha cool find, I definitely might try it out in my upcoming games ^^ Although I still prefer roaches since it helps vs drops and gives you back some map control, it seems most people are instead starting to ling/wall now.
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Sweet find!
Even if you have early roaches around, this emergency semi-permeable wall helps by making sure the that the hellions can't run by. An attempt also means getting poked by the crawler -- which could/help kill the hellion/s.
This then gives you an option of building a late roach warren (when Lair is morphing?) to surprise the opponent if they are expecting Mutas and/or Infestors. (Works for me at low Diamond level)
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I have to agree, this is a great find, I can imagine this being most effective with the crawler already in position and the evo chamber being thrown down as a reactionary measure. Obviously the spine crawler can just uproot when the roaches pop to defend the nat.
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Oh haha I totally forgot about being able to move the spine crawler! That's makes this even better so when you get infestors and stuff you won't even have to kill the evo (it's inexpensive I know, but still it's a small plus) 
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If you're planning to get an early evo chamber anyways, which I do in most of my match ups, this seems like a great place to put it. At least i can put a bit more thought in building placements rather then just around my mineral line.
thanks for the idea.
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I'm sure you can wall off with one queen, what's wrong with this? 150minerals vs 250.
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This is really useful for minimizing drone losses while taking advantage of the wall to allow time to pump out a couple roaches to deal with any hellions still trying to harass the natural.
If you want to be more resistant to early siege/marine pressure you can take advantage of the early evo chamber and get +1 carapace upgrade to deal with a siege tank/marine follow up.
On July 22 2011 08:31 paperTIGERzeddy wrote:
I'm sure you can wall off with one queen, what's wrong with this? 150minerals vs 250.
Against the Terrans that like to open 8+ hellions for their harass, they can just focus down your queen blocking the ramp while being untouched by the queen themselves. With a Spine crawler and Evo chamber you completely block any chance of him from getting into your main barring any hellion medivac drop.
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On July 22 2011 08:31 paperTIGERzeddy wrote:
I'm sure you can wall off with one queen, what's wrong with this? 150minerals vs 250.
more like missing injects/ building a extra queen vs buildings that you get anyway in another place
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Im terran and in 90% of my TvZ i open with any kind of reactor/gasfirst or blueflame hellions.
I think this wall could help a lot zergplayers, but the bad thing for zerg is the blocked choke.
If you move your spine later, which you will do 100% cause of bigger units then worker/lings like roach/infestors etc. a terran could abuse your own wall to drop behind or in your main, so your units wont be able to join your base or only very slow which gives stimmed rines/rauder oder bf hellions some seconds more to snipe key production buildings like spire etc. or all your worker.
Dunno if you wanna go that risk cause a queen is blocking the ramp like hell. :D
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this is a great strat for when they have so many hellions that a queen won't be able to block the ramp. also i like getting evo early anyways for a faster +1 and in case of cloaked banshees (will always get one before cloaked banshees arrive)
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On July 22 2011 07:54 Carush wrote:
oh, and 1 more thing 90 percent of the time terran opens with hellions he goes into banshee cloak or not cloak so already having a evo chamber is even more nifty
don't spout bullshit statistics
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On July 22 2011 08:38 Crytch wrote:
Im terran and in 90% of my TvZ i open with any kind of reactor/gasfirst or blueflame hellions.
I think this wall could help a lot zergplayers, but the bad thing for zerg is the blocked choke.
If you move your spine later, which you will do 100% cause of bigger units then worker/lings like roach/infestors etc. a terran could abuse your own wall to drop behind or in your main, so your units wont be able to join your base or only very slow which gives stimmed rines/rauder oder bf hellions some seconds more to snipe key production buildings like spire etc. or all your worker.
Dunno if you wanna go that risk cause a queen is blocking the ramp like hell. :D
well the thing about tvz right now is that unless you are going infestors, you aren't gonna make any units bigger than lings (besides mutas) until well into mid, maybe even late game. This wall is definitely more of an early game tool to allow you dto drone madly against hellions than anyhthing else, so you are free to move that spine crawler to the back of your base whenever you want, the only thing you are committing in place is that evo.
one thing i need to check though is if ultras can get out of your main once you've move the spine.
ty nicke for pic, will definitely add it
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On July 22 2011 07:52 Carush wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:39 pt wrote:On July 22 2011 07:10 aebriol wrote:On July 22 2011 07:06 pt wrote:
can't you already block hellions with a single queen on the ramp? Nah but with 2. Rhetorical question. I was implying that you can block ramps with 1 queen so this is probably useless. even tho this is true i REALLY think this is a great tool for zerg yea you can block with 1 queen, but it's ridiculous how many hellions i can get out with a reactor and if i'm going double reactor then it's even more insane if he just has 1 queen i can kill it with a couple volleys and take minimal damage, whereas if he has a spine i cant do shit so yea, i think this is a really sweet find
Which makes my own method of having one queen on the ramp right in the centre, and a spine crawler next to the ramp reliable. Will have to try out the method in OP, though.
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On July 22 2011 08:48 nick00bot wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 08:38 Crytch wrote:
Im terran and in 90% of my TvZ i open with any kind of reactor/gasfirst or blueflame hellions.
I think this wall could help a lot zergplayers, but the bad thing for zerg is the blocked choke.
If you move your spine later, which you will do 100% cause of bigger units then worker/lings like roach/infestors etc. a terran could abuse your own wall to drop behind or in your main, so your units wont be able to join your base or only very slow which gives stimmed rines/rauder oder bf hellions some seconds more to snipe key production buildings like spire etc. or all your worker.
Dunno if you wanna go that risk cause a queen is blocking the ramp like hell. :D well the thing about tvz right now is that unless you are going infestors, you aren't gonna make any units bigger than lings (besides mutas) until well into mid, maybe even late game. This wall is definitely more of an early game tool to allow you dto drone madly against hellions than anyhthing else, so you are free to move that spine crawler to the back of your base whenever you want, the only thing you are committing in place is that evo. one thing i need to check though is if ultras can get out of your main once you've move the spine. ty nicke for pic, will definitely add it
I was going to ask if you checked to see if ultras could fit or not. Then again how often do you make ultras versus terran? Even if you do you'll have enough larva at your expansions by that point in the game.
On Taldarim: You could just make one evo/spine and block with a queen.
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This is really interesting. I tried this on several maps with bigger chokes and it's definitely not doable with only one evo chamber and one spine without a queen. You can do it with two, or get one and a queen. Anyhow, I got some pictures on maps (only thoses in the map pool) where this can be usefu. You can obviously place the spine in the middle or whatever place that you want to, it doesn't really matter:
Scrap Station w/o Queen:
Tal'darim Altar w/o Queen:
![[image loading]](http://piclair.com/data/ke4il.jpg)
Tal'Darim Altar w/ Queen:
![[image loading]](http://piclair.com/data/6n3la.jpg)
Couldn't get it to work on Scrap Station with one queen and one evo, oh well.
Feel free to add to the main post or link to this post for future reference.
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-Edit- ninja'd.
Leenock has also been doing this kind of hellion-proof wall, with a Queen as a sort of "door" to prevent hellions from getting in. This kind of 'wall-off' is very good, especially seeing how hellion openings are becoming more and more common.
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ty catgroove for those pics, Ill add the scrap station pic and link the other two since there is already a taldarim pic.
Btw, is the second pic a full wall off? i remember seeing rootslush wall himself off with 2 evos at mlg so im not sure if its drone permeable or not.
@hatchet wound: ty 
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i really like this idea happy to see a fellow zerg doing his part for the entire swarm ^_^ good job son keep up the good work
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On July 22 2011 09:25 nick00bot wrote:ty catgroove for those pics, Ill add the scrap station pic and link the other two since there is already a taldarim pic. Btw, is the second pic a full wall off? i remember seeing rootslush wall himself off with 2 evos at mlg so im not sure if its drone permeable or not. @hatchet wound: ty
Second pic is like your wall off, same with the first one. Wasn't that the whole purpose so that a drone can fit but not a roach/hellion/whatever.
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On July 22 2011 07:10 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:06 pt wrote:
can't you already block hellions with a single queen on the ramp? Nah but with 2.
No, it is possible with one, if you position her 100% correctly. Otherwise, hellions will squeeze through (they will be slowed by collision with her, but can make it through.
Ah, and on tal darim altar, it is possible to block with an evo and a queen only, again assuming you position her perfectly. The spine is unnecessary.
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On July 22 2011 09:48 Catgroove wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 09:25 nick00bot wrote:ty catgroove for those pics, Ill add the scrap station pic and link the other two since there is already a taldarim pic. Btw, is the second pic a full wall off? i remember seeing rootslush wall himself off with 2 evos at mlg so im not sure if its drone permeable or not. @hatchet wound: ty Second pic is like your wall off, same with the first one. Wasn't that the whole purpose so that a drone can fit but not a roach/hellion/whatever.
yeah it was I was just making sure, but thanks for clarifying
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This is really cool. I normally try to do walls like this with big buildings like evo chambers, cheap tech (roach warren, baneling nest) etc. Completing a wallin with a crawler is obviously great because after it unroots you can move bigger units through.
Can you fit something like an ultra through the footprint of a spine crawler? I doubt it but I haven't checked....
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ok so just checked, and good news.... THE ULTRAS FIT. so now there is pretty much no disadvantage ever to doing this wall
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FgLL9.png)
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Does this work for tournament maps? Because I am not sure about this working on MLG maps, or tournament maps where the ramp is modified....
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Dude this is actually really good. Well done.
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lol haha, what is with the 'that is top right bro' repeated over and over? Otherwise, this looks really cool.
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On July 22 2011 06:49 babyToSS wrote:
The big problem with zerg wall ins is that if terran sieges near your natural, it becomes very difficult for the zerg army to break that tank line unless you have broodlords with lots of corrupters.
this is silly, wow would the wall make any difference? if the terran sieges outside your natural chances are things aren't going to go well anyway. if for whatever imaginary reason you don't like the wall after the hellion harass is done you can just move the spine and kill the evo.
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On July 22 2011 06:49 babyToSS wrote:
The big problem with zerg wall ins is that if terran sieges near your natural, it becomes very difficult for the zerg army to break that tank line unless you have broodlords with lots of corrupters.
You're clearly a very low level player. You severe have misconceptions about how high level ZvT works.
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By doing this you're doing exactly what the Terran wants. No good Terran is trying to end the game with hellions by roasting a millions drones. If he sees an oportunity to do so, then yeah, he's going to take it, but he wants you to waste money on static defenses (and extra evo's you won't use for a long time) and stay on your side of the map. You'r accomplishing everything he wants for him. You're much better advised to use your resources on 5 roaches, as they allow you to take back map control and pressure the terran back.
If you get caught completely with your pants down, I suppose this is useful, though, although I don't see how you get caught with your pants down, as you should be taking Reaper or Hellion into account off 1 gas, and blue flame, Banshees, or hellion drop off 2 gas. Unless you couldn't scout his gas timing, but you should catch the reactor with scout lings.
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On July 22 2011 07:39 pt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 07:10 aebriol wrote:On July 22 2011 07:06 pt wrote:
can't you already block hellions with a single queen on the ramp? Nah but with 2. Rhetorical question. I was implying that you can block ramps with 1 queen so this is probably useless.
Yea, 1 queen and then 1 spine crawler overlooking the ramp to prevent hellion kiting is pretty good, but the queen can still be vulnerable if you get caught off guard by some kind of mass hellion strat. If that queen dies you pretty much lose, and from that perspective this type of wall in is a little safer
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On July 22 2011 12:17 -Jambi- wrote:
Does this work for tournament maps? Because I am not sure about this working on MLG maps, or tournament maps where the ramp is modified....
You could just drop one or two evos to block the evo chamber completely if you're really desperate, but you'd have to have some units to support that and not just do it without units like this wall. eg if you're trying to surround him and he's aiming for your ramp, you can just place an evo chamber to block it and then get the surround.
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On July 22 2011 12:49 Arisen wrote:
By doing this you're doing exactly what the Terran wants. No good Terran is trying to end the game with hellions by roasting a millions drones. If he sees an oportunity to do so, then yeah, he's going to take it, but he wants you to waste money on static defenses (and extra evo's you won't use for a long time) and stay on your side of the map. You'r accomplishing everything he wants for him. You're much better advised to use your resources on 5 roaches, as they allow you to take back map control and pressure the terran back.
Being a low grandmaster zerg, I completely disagree with everything in this paragraph.
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On July 22 2011 12:49 Arisen wrote:
By doing this you're doing exactly what the Terran wants. No good Terran is trying to end the game with hellions by roasting a millions drones. If he sees an oportunity to do so, then yeah, he's going to take it, but he wants you to waste money on static defenses (and extra evo's you won't use for a long time) and stay on your side of the map. You'r accomplishing everything he wants for him. You're much better advised to use your resources on 5 roaches, as they allow you to take back map control and pressure the terran back.
If you get caught completely with your pants down, I suppose this is useful, though, although I don't see how you get caught with your pants down, as you should be taking Reaper or Hellion into account off 1 gas, and blue flame, Banshees, or hellion drop off 2 gas. Unless you couldn't scout his gas timing, but you should catch the reactor with scout lings.
First you're saying that you won't use the evo chamber for a long time, assuming everyone plays the same and always get upgrades much later, so it will be worthless, right? But then you're saying that it's better to get roaches to take map control and pressure the terran back. If you're going for the standard muta/ling/bling aren't you wasting money on a roach warren and 5 roaches when you wont be using them anyway?
Your first argument would've been true if everyone played the same, but some people get upgrades early, (sup losira, destiny etc) believe it or not.
Your last argument would've been right if you're NOT going for the standard muta/ling/bling. I don't understand how you could argue like that. Sure you can take back map control and pressure the terran, but how much pressure can 5 roaches really apply this late in the matchup? Not much.
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Cool tricks u got TS. I'm sure this will be a useful trick for zergs. Seeing how vulnerable zerg is on open naturals, this sure does help. Thanks.
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AAAAAAAA those are my hellions!!
I was shocked when this happened to me on ladder and I think the mass muta style follow up has a ton of merit to it - yeah there's a lot of ways for terran to punish it but it is a really kickass trick.
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Just a question that sort of pertains to this thread: what prevents the Terran from keeping his hellions at your natural and preventing mining? is it just the queen at the natural?
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On July 22 2011 13:41 Karellen wrote:
Just a question that sort of pertains to this thread: what prevents the Terran from keeping his hellions at your natural and preventing mining? is it just the queen at the natural?
Queen, massed zerglings, mutas, more spines.
Really, there's no difference between this and a double queen block in terms of scaring the hellions away.
So basically what is going to scare the hellions away is whatever it is that normally scares them away.
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On July 22 2011 13:41 Karellen wrote:
Just a question that sort of pertains to this thread: what prevents the Terran from keeping his hellions at your natural and preventing mining? is it just the queen at the natural?
yeah thats pretty much it, but pretty much there's two scenerios where that would happen
1. 2-4 hellions. sure he can park them by your natural, but your queen(s) will take care of them fairly quickly so you can just keep on droning.
2. 6-10 hellions: youll have to make units, but youll have time to do so without losing all your drones lol
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Can roaches get through? Ultras? Queens?
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Woah really sexy sim city for zerg, must remember this for off racing
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I like it!... ;D
Nice Mate!
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On July 22 2011 14:43 Dhalphir wrote:
Can roaches get through? Ultras? Queens?
Crawlers can root+unroot.
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and once they do, even ultras can get through so you wont have to kill your evo uder any circumstance
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As a Terran that loves his Hellions, I am QQing... :/ :/
But great find nonetheless
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On July 22 2011 12:49 Arisen wrote:
By doing this you're doing exactly what the Terran wants. No good Terran is trying to end the game with hellions by roasting a millions drones. If he sees an oportunity to do so, then yeah, he's going to take it, but he wants you to waste money on static defenses (and extra evo's you won't use for a long time) and stay on your side of the map. You'r accomplishing everything he wants for him. You're much better advised to use your resources on 5 roaches, as they allow you to take back map control and pressure the terran back.
If you get caught completely with your pants down, I suppose this is useful, though, although I don't see how you get caught with your pants down, as you should be taking Reaper or Hellion into account off 1 gas, and blue flame, Banshees, or hellion drop off 2 gas. Unless you couldn't scout his gas timing, but you should catch the reactor with scout lings.
Look, I'm making a spinecrawler and an evo chamber already, why not make it a wall? Where exactly is the waste? Building an evo chamber that I will use in the next few minutes or immediately if Terran opens banshees? Building a spine that you'll get more value out of than 4 lings (and a drone)?
This is actually something I wanted to see. My evo chamber walls are very unrefined and sloppy. Thank you OP
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On July 22 2011 06:49 babyToSS wrote:
The big problem with zerg wall ins is that if terran sieges near your natural, it becomes very difficult for the zerg army to break that tank line unless you have broodlords with lots of corrupters.
I can't tell if this is the biggest troll tonight or if it's a drunken bronzie on FOX News.
Thanks OP, very detailed and informative. I love how reactionary it can be, and it really is a strong position for the crawler (as yet, i still have no idea how to properly position crawlers).
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this is completely awesome, nice find
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So what do you do if BF Helions get into the 5-6 count followed up with a marauder push?
I can see how it will help with the initial helion harass, but I don't think this allows one to drone up freely regardless if the ramp is blocked. Be aware of the silly pushes that can cost you if you think you're free to drone up hardcore.
Might as well open up the roach warren earlier imo, does the same job, in addition to giving mobility for the places the spine crawler cannot reach.
It actually takes a while for creep to spread to the ramp on maps like shattered temple anyway. Feels to me like a last minute attempt to hold off the initial helions when the roach warren is late, much like it was told in the OP. Sure it's good, but be prepared and you won't have to do this?
What happened to the 4 roach build with 3 at the nat and 1 in main?
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On July 22 2011 17:02 scph wrote:
So what do you do if BF Helions get into the 5-6 count followed up with a marauder push?
I can see how it will help with the initial helion harass, but I don't think this allows one to drone up freely regardless if the ramp is blocked. Be aware of the silly pushes that can cost you if you think you're free to drone up hardcore.
Might as well open up the roach warren earlier imo, does the same job, in addition to giving mobility for the places the spine crawler cannot reach.
It actually takes a while for creep to spread to the ramp on maps like shattered temple anyway. Feels to me like a last minute attempt to hold off the initial helions when the roach warren is late, much like it was told in the OP. Sure it's good, but be prepared and you won't have to do this?
What happened to the 4 roach build with 3 at the nat and 1 in main?
No-one is claiming it's the second coming of christ and the solution to all our problems. Obviously it would be better to be properly prepared for the helions, but if you aren't prepared and helions are incoming it's a great way to protect your drones and not auto-lose the game while you muster a response to reclaim your natural mineral line.
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Nice find.
So most (if not every) zerg units fits through - just to clarify, in mirror, is this only true for your units or for enemy units as well (I'd assume it is)?
Also, has anyone tested further units (OP doesn't say so)? How do other terran units than hellions fit, e.g. are marines blocked by this? And what about protoss, maybe DTs? Is it possible to block DTs from entering your main (for whatever reason, just to buy time)?
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On July 22 2011 22:44 Antithesis wrote:
Nice find.
So most (if not every) zerg units fits through - just to clarify, in mirror, is this only true for your units or for enemy units as well (I'd assume it is)?
Also, has anyone tested further units (OP doesn't say so)? How do other terran units than hellions fit, e.g. are marines blocked by this? And what about protoss, maybe DTs? Is it possible to block DTs from entering your main (for whatever reason, just to buy time)?
All units get through if you uproot.
Without uprooting small units like zerglings marines zealots and dts will come through, while hellions/roaches/stalkers will not be able to pass
good find, I've been doing it with a queen and evo/crawler, but this looks sweet =) definitly gonna try this =)
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I'll definitely be using this. I've put evo chambers at my ramp, just never thought of actually blocking it off with spines.
Main thing is to get that creep spread to the ramp ASAP.
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On July 22 2011 12:29 KimJongChill wrote:
lol haha, what is with the 'that is top right bro' repeated over and over? Otherwise, this looks really cool.
Haha what happened was he told me he spawned in bottom right metalopolis (the 5:00 position) while he was actually in the top right (1:00 position) so I said "that's top right bro" once. For some reason it showed up on his chat 4 times O.o
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@banchan. from my perspective that was def botom right, adn the 2 oclock was top right.
and Sliness is right, unfortunately it wont block dts or any "tier 1 sized" units.
Main thing is to get that creep spread to the ramp ASAP.
I probably should have mentioned this in the OP, but on some maps where the creep from your natural doesn't naturally spread across the ramp you will have to lay a n early creep tumor if you want o have your wall up in time for a reactor hellion opening
I can see how it will help with the initial helion harass, but I don't think this allows one to drone up freely regardless if the ramp is blocked. Be aware of the silly pushes that can cost you if you think you're free to drone up hardcore.
Might as well open up the roach warren earlier imo, does the same job, in addition to giving mobility for the places the spine crawler cannot reach.
yeah you or definitely correct in that this is only for initial hellion harassment, but if instead of those 4 roaches you suggest you have 3 more drones and a faster lair (assuming you don't build evo and spines when going roach and don't build RW when doing this wall), which in turn can turn into being able to optimally produce units in time for that marauder hellion push. The gas saved from roaches can be invested in either +1 or a fast lair, which in turn can allow you a great muta counterattack if you manage to survive all the hellion push shenanigans
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this looks awesome...
and btw, blocking a ramp with 1 queen requires really good placement.
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Whatever happened to good scouting and a double queen block? It's really, really easy.
Lategame, however, It would work... but by then, your natural is mined out...
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seems like a very nice find! yes you can block your ramp with 1 queen, but that relies on very good positioning. and to be fair, would you really risk the loss of the game(seeing as your units prolly aren't there or you wouldn;t need the block) with such a precise positioning? you need an evo and a spine anyways in any normal game, might as well put them there.
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Or you could just have a zergling near his front to see the hellions roll out, then move your queens easily to your front and have plenty of time, for quite a bit less resources. If you want to upgrade for a timing push, this also leaves your upgrades (a potential game-winner) very vulnerable until late in the midgame.
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On July 23 2011 02:36 Honeybadger wrote:
Or you could just have a zergling near his front to see the hellions roll out, then move your queens easily to your front and have plenty of time, for quite a bit less resources. If you want to upgrade for a timing push, this also leaves your upgrades (a potential game-winner) very vulnerable until late in the midgame.
a spine crawler has mroe staying power than 2 queens vs a lot of hellions (not that uncommon), and you can switch the evo and spines so the evo is mroe at the back. and to be honest, when you're fighting at your ramp and he has the unit advantage to start targetting buildings instead of your army, you've probably lost already.
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How do you get out of your ramp? Zerglings get fried as they have to come down a line. Surely 2 queens and the spinecrawler in a more useful space is better than this.
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well now that we take hellion out of the picture for terran lol.....
More two rax, 1 rax fe --> 4rax, incoming. XD
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On July 23 2011 03:08 Micket wrote:
How do you get out of your ramp? Zerglings get fried as they have to come down a line. Surely 2 queens and the spinecrawler in a more useful space is better than this.
the hellions can;t stay near the wallin becasue of the spine crawler, so when you down with your lings, they can;t possibly be that close to 1shot them all.
if they do stay at the wallin however... wait for ur spines to kill their hellions xD
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when you see hellions, just run your main's queen to your ramp, run your drones away and defend with your natural expo queen. all you need is 1 queen to keep hellions out.
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LOL this is just a copy of the terran wall in down the ramp you remember suply depot and barracks ... drone cant see whats going on? .... no inovation just a copy, but people need to do this with other races copy the good stuff of the others :D
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On July 23 2011 02:39 GuardianEU wrote:
a spine crawler has mroe staying power than 2 queens vs a lot of hellions (not that uncommon), and you can switch the evo and spines so the evo is mroe at the back. and to be honest, when you're fighting at your ramp and he has the unit advantage to start targetting buildings instead of your army, you've probably lost already.
If you're not a high level player, this makes sense. But if he does go hellions, spines can be worked around or just suicided past for massive damage. The most important thing is to deny scouting. If he sees your roach warren for your early attack, you might as well just cancel it.
Also, building that spine when you don't have to means that you just lost the edge.
Here's how to know:
Ask a friend to do a 1, 2, and 5 hellion rush (if he masses more, he's just begging to be crushed by roaches or mutas) and figure out the general timings of these, plus or minus 30 game seconds due to people not being pros. And unless you're close positions on metal or shattered (if you are, build those spines anyways, lol) you will have enough time, just, to get a spine built and your queens in place.
If you don't HAVE to build something, don't. That's more drones or more zerglings or roaches or hydras in the long run
If I saw an evo right where that is, I'd just happily sit out of range and kill your evo with my hellions.
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Its great if you are too lazy to move your Queens.
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On July 23 2011 01:08 nick00bot wrote:
@banchan. from my perspective that was def botom right, adn the 2 oclock was top right.
![[image loading]](http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp44/superpro/bottomright.png)
IDK bro, the proof looks to be against you
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Wow. I think you have just made the largest contribution to my laddering out of anyone (except maybe Day9)
Thanks for this!!!
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I've been doing another kind of wallin with evo(s), spine, and queen in front of my natural so they can't get through at all and just camp at the natural. I think it's better to do that than running your drones back to main.
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IDK bro, the proof looks to be against you
ok so if you tilt the map to the left its top right, if you tilt it to the right its bottom right, either way its sort of ambiguous in its natural setting
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I think that pulling drones from the natural to the main is too much damage by itself. Also by pulling u cause the drones to bunch up and usually take more losses compared to leaving them mine or hit stop + (select idle worker + move)*spam.
On most maps - even on ones with open naturals like xel naga caverns and metalopolis a zerg can defend 4-8 hellions with 2(3) queens 1 evo touching the ramp and 2 crawlers. If you feel the hellions are suicidal just add 4-10 lings to clean up faster when he goes for "the kill".
PS: not sure if that works at all on tournament maps with altered ramps - these that prevent barracks + depo walls.
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On July 23 2011 06:26 Giantt wrote:
I think that pulling drones from the natural to the main is too much damage by itself. Also by pulling u cause the drones to bunch up and usually take more losses compared to leaving them mine or hit stop + (select idle worker + move)*spam.
On most maps - even on ones with open naturals like xel naga caverns and metalopolis a zerg can defend 4-8 hellions with 2(3) queens 1 evo touching the ramp and 2 crawlers. If you feel the hellions are suicidal just add 4-10 lings to clean up faster when he goes for "the kill".
the thing is, your drones should already be in your base by the time the hellions arrive. the defense you suggest is good and will probably result in more dead hellions, but even suicidal hellions get drone kills. also if its blue flames you don't wanna risk having your drones out at all, 4 hellions can tear through a mineral line in like 2 volleys
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Wow cool idea. What I really like about this is that it can be a temporary wall off as spine crawlers are movable.
Later I am going to look for some variations building-wise for scrap and whatnot, if for funsies none the less.
This may be the wrong thread, but it pertains to my experimenting later: Do most people throw down a Roach Warren if they scout hellions if they don't have one already?
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On July 23 2011 06:26 Giantt wrote:
PS: not sure if that works at all on tournament maps with altered ramps - these that prevent barracks + depo walls.
This is not super early game so it shouldn't be hard to kill the depot with a few lings or a queen in time to block hellions
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On July 23 2011 02:03 Honeybadger wrote:
Whatever happened to good scouting and a double queen block? It's really, really easy.
Lategame, however, It would work... but by then, your natural is mined out...
A Queen is 150 minerals. An Evolution Chamber and Spine Crawler equal up to about 275. It's not the most economically responsible thing to do, but I'd prefer to do that than potentially lose drones because of bad Queen micro.
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On July 23 2011 08:51 holycrapitsTony wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 02:03 Honeybadger wrote:
Whatever happened to good scouting and a double queen block? It's really, really easy.
Lategame, however, It would work... but by then, your natural is mined out... A Queen is 150 minerals. An Evolution Chamber and Spine Crawler equal up to about 275. It's not the most economically responsible thing to do, but I'd prefer to do that than potentially lose drones because of bad Queen micro.
Assuming you always get an evo chamber in ZvT, the cost is reduced to 150, same as a queen.
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if you have a spine you can just you know kinda open the door.... and re close it at anytime how are people complaining that roaches cant get through
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On July 22 2011 13:00 Catgroove wrote:Sure you can take back map control and pressure the terran, but how much pressure can 5 roaches really apply this late in the matchup? Not much.
I agree with the rest of your post, however, you really haven't seen how powerful early roach timings against terran can be. Watch Sheth play ZvT. He often does an early 4-6 roach push (roach warren on 26, stop droning until they are out) and then just pumps drones after. Those few roaches can do a ton of damage to a terran (especially if they open helion), and provide valuable scouting info.
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Can't you do this with a roach warren and a spine crawler and have the best of both world?
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On July 23 2011 11:27 Angry_Fetus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:00 Catgroove wrote:Sure you can take back map control and pressure the terran, but how much pressure can 5 roaches really apply this late in the matchup? Not much.
I agree with the rest of your post, however, you really haven't seen how powerful early roach timings against terran can be. Watch Sheth play ZvT. He often does an early 4-6 roach push (roach warren on 26, stop droning until they are out) and then just pumps drones after. Those few roaches can do a ton of damage to a terran (especially if they open helion), and provide valuable scouting info.
Yeah but you can't do the roach push AFTER the hellion opening happens. The roach push works because Terran cuts marine production to make hellions which can't do anything against roaches. Once he already had hellions he's not going to have only hellions by the time your roaches reach his front door.
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Lol a zerg who plays slag pits
EDIT: Lol slag pits
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Wow, what an amazing find. One of my main issues against Terran at the moment is when they mix in like 4-6 BF Hellions with their tank/marine composition during the 2-base push. I hate making roaches in ZvT past the initial few, and I find I'm often not prepared to counter both the Hellions and the push with all my zerglings - which usually results in them sneaking in and roasting my entire mineral line. This is a great reactionary countermeasure to that, which I'll definitely be using!
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A Queen is 150 minerals. An Evolution Chamber and Spine Crawler equal up to about 275. It's not the most economically responsible thing to do, but I'd prefer to do that than potentially lose drones because of bad Queen micro.
Queen micro is using a single one to block your ramp. This is just parking two of those fat-arses anywhere at all on the ramp and hitting H.
Seriously. She's got some wide hips. Nobody will get by.
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Seriously, guys. come on. This is not a good habit you' re instilling into yourselves. Clicking three times to move your queens and making a habit out of scouting the front will win you hundreds more games in the long run than another gimmicky idea (however interesting, the OP is on to something, I'll elaborate):
Use those buildings to better your simcity. Use your pool, roach warren, evo's, spines, etc. to funnel the hellions or block pathways they might squeeze by AROUND YOUR MINERAL LINE. Turning your front into a giant funnel is just silly for a race that needs 60 units out IMMEDIATELY. You're trying too hard to be protoss.
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On July 22 2011 06:42 nick00bot wrote:
But Nickbot, what if they drop hellions at my main AND the expansion AT THE SAME TIME???
ok well your pretty much screwed
hahahhaha, it made me laugh.
Anyway, I sim city my zerg buildings, but I noticed that when I try to make my drones flee all at once, they die because of the bottle-neck. I try to have 4 or some number of drones to hold them back while the others escape. It's still not a good scenario for me : (
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I'm gonna incorporate this beautiful building placement into my games... thank you so much dear sir...
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why not just build some of dem der emergency spinez?
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I knew I was wrong to never read the strategy forum! Those who criticize it are missing the point IMO, it's not something you will do systematically but something to keep in mind when you make your evo and when you see those hellions coming. This allows you to be more reactive, and therefore lose less mining time, overall a nice find that I'll definitely try.
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This is really cool - gotta try this
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As a Terran player .... NOOOOO!
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On July 23 2011 11:27 Angry_Fetus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 13:00 Catgroove wrote:Sure you can take back map control and pressure the terran, but how much pressure can 5 roaches really apply this late in the matchup? Not much.
I agree with the rest of your post, however, you really haven't seen how powerful early roach timings against terran can be. Watch Sheth play ZvT. He often does an early 4-6 roach push (roach warren on 26, stop droning until they are out) and then just pumps drones after. Those few roaches can do a ton of damage to a terran (especially if they open helion), and provide valuable scouting info.
I know and understand what you mean but won't that attack be really delayed if you get the roaches that late? Sheth's push comes before hellions are even out if I recall correctly, and if the terran sees that many roaches he will have the time to prepare if he isn't already. That's just my take on it.
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Wait i might be retarded but aren't the drones kinda lining up when they pass trough there... so won't 3 BFH just instantly fry all those drones if they are lined up like that.
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I already put an Evo Chamber there, I guess I'll have to start putting the spine in that spot to wall it off.
I've seen some players build their macro hatch where the evo chamber is to form a semi-wall.
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On July 24 2011 01:26 Aterons_toss wrote:
Wait i might be retarded but aren't the drones kinda lining up when they pass trough there... so won't 3 BFH just instantly fry all those drones if they are lined up like that.
i thought the whole point was that you spot the hellions with ovies/watchtowers then move drones preemptively
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about the bottlenecking:
banchan is definitely spot on with his above post right there ^, but also something to consider is that drones naturally line up anyways when you are going up a ramp, BUT because it is a low ground wall instead of a highground one, hellions dont have high ground vision so your drones can escape much quicker than they would otherwise. also instead of having your queen(s) tied up in the ramp, you can have it blocking hellions during the short window of time where drones are lined up
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Check out this weirdness on the new map Antiga Shipyard apparently all the spawns are not the same
+ Show Spoiler +
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On July 27 2011 10:13 Tag wrote:Check out this weirdness on the new map Antiga Shipyard apparently all the spawns are not the same + Show Spoiler +
It's difficult to tell since you don't have grid enabled on the pictures, but it looks like you may not have walled correctly. You can check out this thread for a means to make sure you never miss a standard ramp wall (if indeed that's the case):
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=214208
Also, your bottom right one doesn't have enough creep, which is why you can't put that evo chamber there.
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HAHHAHAHAHAAHHAAHA AWESOME!
I always thought the spinecrawler would let hellions through, but no!
This is brillant nick. If we have a 'like' system on TL I'd give you a thousand or more of them.
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On July 27 2011 10:30 michaelhasanalias wrote:It's difficult to tell since you don't have grid enabled on the pictures, but it looks like you may not have walled correctly. You can check out this thread for a means to make sure you never miss a standard ramp wall (if indeed that's the case): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=214208Also, your bottom right one doesn't have enough creep, which is why you can't put that evo chamber there.
Thats not the point i was trying to make.
The creep spread to the ramp from the natural is uneven on Antiga Shipyard, which is kinda odd for a blizzard made map.
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On July 23 2011 12:12 Emporio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 11:27 Angry_Fetus wrote:On July 22 2011 13:00 Catgroove wrote:Sure you can take back map control and pressure the terran, but how much pressure can 5 roaches really apply this late in the matchup? Not much.
I agree with the rest of your post, however, you really haven't seen how powerful early roach timings against terran can be. Watch Sheth play ZvT. He often does an early 4-6 roach push (roach warren on 26, stop droning until they are out) and then just pumps drones after. Those few roaches can do a ton of damage to a terran (especially if they open helion), and provide valuable scouting info. Yeah but you can't do the roach push AFTER the hellion opening happens. The roach push works because Terran cuts marine production to make hellions which can't do anything against roaches. Once he already had hellions he's not going to have only hellions by the time your roaches reach his front door.
Look, no you don't do roach pressure after the hellion harass, you do it as it's coming in. You don't see the factory and think "oh, it's time to make roaches", that's retarded, He'll have his natural and bunkers up by then and your roaches won't do jack shit unless you're playing roach infestor. It's your job to know before then. You throw down a warren at 25 food in response to seeing fast gas and do the 5-6 roach pressure. Roach openings are strong versus every terran fast gas opening except banshees (imo), so it's your call if you go for roach pressure on seeing 2 gas, I've seen Sheth play both ways. The most common fast gas openings are goign to be hellions and reaper. Roaches fare decently against both, but are supremely strong versus hellion openings. It delays your lair tech if you're the type who goes for extremely fast mutas, but is a solid way of opening and takes out all sorts of randomness from early game ZvT as roach pressure makes you safe from just about everything. Even if he is going for banshees and you're caught off gaurd, you have time to defend while you're pressuring his front as he has to use banshees to defend. If he's doing some stupid early stim timing you can back up and use extremely beefy roaches for defense. If he's going for a FE, it delays his expo until he has seige mode or a decent amount of MM. It forces bunkers from economically focused plays and delays his expansion while giving you room to drone and take a fast third and keeps you safe from all sorts of one base play.
Watch 10 random ZvT's Sheth has played and you'll see this build in the majority. It's a good build, and something every zerg shoud be aware of. We're not all IdrA and have insane unit control to hold off 4 hellions with 4 lings and a queen on TDA (the other flaw of this type of play is wider naturals where the terran can abuse your spine placement or force more static defense while he powers like crazy), this is a relatively effective build to let zerg dictate the flow of the matchup.
I know there are a lot of forum heroes who post their credentials and say that will never work or is wrong, etc, and most of the time they have no idea what they're talking about (see: A lot of people who responded to my post). Sheth uses this a lot, so he obviously thinks it's a vaible way to play the mathup, and if you're reading this, unless your name is Greg Fields or Jos de Kroon, you probably are not a better Zerg player than Sheth. Just saying.
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sexy, i seem to lose every ZvT that i play when the T opens hellions this should be very helpful thanks man
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I've been doing this for months using a roach warren + spine. U jelly? I'm fairly certain it's a must these days. The hellions are coming out faster, and a lot more aggressive. Holding off with just queens + lings is quite problematic :/
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Thanks for thise brilliant placement, I hate going against Hellions, It was definatly a pain in the ass with the 'The really a lot of hellions' build going around. Plus with mech BF Hellions are showing up alot more in TvZ I never understood why they weren't used much anyways Zergs dump minerals into Zerglings, Hellions eat Zerglings plus can do mineral run bys. Thanks once again for the placement.
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Nice, will try this as soon as I suspect the terran to go for hellions
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EPT
