EPT
I'm not even kidding. The hellions focus fire the marines, and the banshee picks off the tank.
[G] TvT Hellion / Air Revamped - Page 3
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silverdevilboy
United Kingdom38 Posts
I'm not even kidding. The hellions focus fire the marines, and the banshee picks off the tank. | ||
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aaycumi
England265 Posts
Before when using this build I had serious problems against Reaper openings and that was with 2 fac, one factory simply could not be able to hold early marine, etc. aggression. This does work as a macro-map version though I'll give you that much, but then you go on and say 3port 2 Battlecruiser +1 armor/Yamato timing attack and I'm completely lost... Assuming your hellion harass does zero. How is a slow, meaty attack like battlecruisers going to sort the early problem of not having an army. And a 3-Reaper rush would demolish this build utterly. | ||
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Toxi78
966 Posts
On August 04 2011 11:16 aaycumi wrote: The two factory blue flame hellion is for aggression stopping and early map control, how is that cheesy? Before when using this build I had serious problems against Reaper openings and that was with 2 fac, one factory simply could not be able to hold early marine, etc. aggression. This does work as a macro-map version though I'll give you that much, but then you go on and say 3port 2 Battlecruiser +1 armor/Yamato timing attack and I'm completely lost... Assuming your hellion harass does zero. How is a slow, meaty attack like battlecruisers going to sort the early problem of not having an army. And a 3-Reaper rush would demolish this build utterly. theorycrafting, and obviously you are a bad player. you jump from point to point with retarded conclusions. where did i say i make a timing attack ? hellion harass never does zero over the course of a game. obviously if it does, since i based my tactic on it, then i'm going to lose. where did i say i tech to battlecruisers? if you read half of what i say do not post in this thread. i talked about the reaper openings, i talked about the banshees, i talked about the harass and i said, if you are an idiot theorycrafting, do not come here posting "i know you drop you make 0 damage i win ezpz". please stop posting. On August 04 2011 05:48 xza wrote: Can anyone help me out, i've been trying out this build and the Blue flame kills a lot of scvs but the opponent goes 1-1-1 marine tank viking. Do i need to delay his instant counter en route to my base because once he has 4 siege tanks outside my base i can't do anything. I feel that thats the only push that I have to fend off and i've won since i killed almost all of his scvs but i needed like 1 more min to be able to fend it off  you have to produce hellions out of the reactored factory. it is REALLY important. when he is making the death push after losing his whole eco, all you have to do is hold. use your scvs. produce banshees 2 at a time if he is pushing, it's really important too. if you only have half your scvs after the push, what do you care? you have to save the medivac throughout the game, low eco vs low eco, blue flame hellions will end it for you. | ||
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LordLuo
United States37 Posts
), but would this build transition well into your standard mech play after the viking and medivac? Sorry if the question was already asked, lots to read through!I think the idea of getting a quick medivac and viking is great, but after that I do prefer the tank style mech we've been seeing. | ||
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Kortex22
France28 Posts
First tanks to this improvement of the echoics build. I watched yesterday your replays especially the one vs an hard turtling player on dhatered temple (~40 mn long). He covered its base with turrets. What Do you think is the best response ? I really struglled with this in ladder - Yamato all the turrets one by one.. Very loong - pdd the turrets n drop a bunch of hellions to kill all scv ? - land vikings n kill turrets, but with the risk of getting trap - or just get all the map ( you took only your half in the replay) | ||
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Toxi78
966 Posts
On August 10 2011 05:08 LordLuo wrote: Sorry for the bump (or perhaps the OP appreciates it ), but would this build transition well into your standard mech play after the viking and medivac? Sorry if the question was already asked, lots to read through!I think the idea of getting a quick medivac and viking is great, but after that I do prefer the tank style mech we've been seeing. i personally think that it is actually a very good transition, instead of getting the 2nd starport, to get a 2nd factory, a cc, and a 3rd factory, but i haven't been working on it because i personally really enjoy the air play. On August 11 2011 17:37 Kortex22 wrote: Hi Toxi, First tanks to this improvement of the echoics build. I watched yesterday your replays especially the one vs an hard turtling player on dhatered temple (~40 mn long). He covered its base with turrets. What Do you think is the best response ? I really struglled with this in ladder - Yamato all the turrets one by one.. Very loong - pdd the turrets n drop a bunch of hellions to kill all scv ? - land vikings n kill turrets, but with the risk of getting trap - or just get all the map ( you took only your half in the replay) this is what i struggle the most with, turtle. if i remember well, what i did was going for his production where less turrets were planted, in order to make him come and kill his army, because i knew i was really far ahead in macro. if you are THAT far ahead, you can transition back into mech and kill the turtle because it is really hard to beat mass turrets with air. as i said also, if he has no tanks, landing vikings makes his investment useless, you can do some damage, then you lose them, and you free up supply in an exchange as opposed to losing your vikings to a bunch of turrets and his own vikings. i used to yamato turrets one by one in the past when there were moderate numbers of turrets, but this guy really brought it to a whole new level. something else i wanted to address : i watched namhcir play yesterday against SC, and he basicly made a much weaker version of the build and still beat him : he didn't get a reactor early. the reactor is soooooo awesome and fits so well in this tight build and everything you want to get. on a side note, i keep using the build, i beat empirekas the other night with it, it's still going strong ^^ | ||
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Kortex22
France28 Posts
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mEtRoSG
Germany192 Posts
edit: sry i jsut checked ur post on iechoics thread and it seems liek u found the build by urslef and we both kinda develloped it nearly the same way, i only do this build in all my tvts and even though people know whats coming i still have about 85% win with it so that lewts me to teh conclusion its solid, great post then  many replays and vods of it here : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227711 | ||
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Toxi78
966 Posts
On August 13 2011 04:52 mEtRoSG wrote: thios is basically my build stolen only that u atke teh sec gas even earlier so its easy to socut and people know hard tech is coming :D edit: sry i jsut checked ur post on iechoics thread and it seems liek u found the build by urslef and we both kinda develloped it nearly the same way, i only do this build in all my tvts and even though people know whats coming i still have about 85% win with it so that lewts me to teh conclusion its solid, great post then many replays and vods of it here : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227711 yeah i can assure u i came up with it myself, its only talking with a few guys later that ur name popped up. i always do this build in TvT, i was in semifinal of craftcup today, won vs turuk and poyo with it (though i beat better players in tvt in ladder with it too), it was so hardcore rape with this build. unfortunately i kept discing later, and couldn't play vs goody, so i gave him defwin. | ||
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OmegaKnetus
Germany431 Posts
I have been using your build and playstyle for some time now and it works out great most of the time. There's only one unit comp which beats me almost everytime: A meching terran, who goes for tank hellion first and transitions into thor (around 5) and mass viking. The problem I have is when they focus fire my battle cruisers and then they are free to pwn my base with the thors. Any idea what to do against this comp? | ||
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EnsisRaizo
25 Posts
On August 13 2011 23:08 OmegaKnetus wrote: good day sir!! I have been using your build and playstyle for some time now and it works out great most of the time. There's only one unit comp which beats me almost everytime: A meching terran, who goes for tank hellion first and transitions into thor (around 5) and mass viking. The problem I have is when they focus fire my battle cruisers and then they are free to pwn my base with the thors. Any idea what to do against this comp? First off imma noob terran, but when it comes to this situation the answer I see is kinda simple. Great care i think is needed, you have to still have enough vikings to decimate his vikings, but you are gonna need a solid amount of Battlecruisers and quick yamato use to kill the thors. Thors in general are not too good against cruisers or vikings but mass thors will still do a lot of hurt. That said the greatest danger is losing air control because the vikings are the real danger in that they can kite you endlessly and drag you over the thors for the fight. I believe you need very solid scouting(i.e. repeated scanning) to make sure you have enough vikings to break his vikings while still having enough cruisers to yamato his thors out of the picture. | ||
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Toxi78
966 Posts
if you are in a turtle situation where you have time, get like 4 ravens and make a lot of PDDs. if it's a push, use the raven you should have produced early (i always go viking / medi into raven now) and you should have 2 PDDs, they will completly change the outcome of the fight : you should never lose air superiority with PDDs , and then your problem will be the thors. again, overkilling the air is always good, assuming he doesn't have tanks (in your example), landing vikings on thors once you've cleaned up the air is a good move. | ||
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lukasdesign
Switzerland93 Posts
Yamato Cannon Online Don't know if this is common knowledge or not, but I was always struggling with use of Yamato cannons. I Shift-clicked multiple targets and it took forever until the cannons where fired. Know I found out that keeping Z (on grid layout) pressed and spam clicking on the Thors etc fires the cannons of all the selected BCs in a rapid sequences...BOOOOM-BOOOOM-BOOOOM - Thors to ashes. This safes so much time! Btw: This is true for all casters' special abilities!!! | ||
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Carrera26
United States29 Posts
As it is, once I get my 2 base infrastructure up and running I barely ever lose, but it seems that lately whenever my opponents see hellions and a low marine/no tank count with their 6 minute scan they just push the infantry hard with emphasis on Marauders. I am able to annihilate with my BF drop but I can't hold the stim counter push that hits at about the same time (7:30). Maybe that's just popular anyway nowadays because while I have no problem with marine tank, I just get overwhelmed by quick stimmed M&M. I hate tanks and love this style, anybody face this or have ideas on adapting/surviving? Thanks. P.S. Why not nuke turtling players? It's out of range of Siege Tanks, and either they pull back army and lose static defense, come out to attack when they don't want to and engage (which is what you want anyway)... or I guess stay and die. Turtling gives you the time and the cost isn't all that high compared to the cost of engaging a turtled and/or prepared Terran. Maybe a stupid Gold idea... | ||
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lukasdesign
Switzerland93 Posts
On August 23 2011 02:27 Carrera26 wrote: I personally love Air Terran / Iechoic, but although I had a massive win ratio in Silver with it I am having a lot more trouble in Gold now that I am emphasizing the quick BF Hellion drop vs. going straight to air and following up with Hellions. As it is, once I get my 2 base infrastructure up and running I barely ever lose, but it seems that lately whenever my opponents see hellions and a low marine/no tank count with their 6 minute scan they just push the infantry hard with emphasis on Marauders. I am able to annihilate with my BF drop but I can't hold the stim counter push that hits at about the same time (7:30). Maybe that's just popular anyway nowadays because while I have no problem with marine tank, I just get overwhelmed by quick stimmed M&M. I hate tanks and love this style, anybody face this or have ideas on adapting/surviving? Thanks. . i agree that quick M&M pushes are kind of horrible to this build. Stimmed Marauders can just crush your base. The worst thing is that happens normally once my Medivac already left the base and is heading towards the enemies base. I normally try to rally my new units more into the back off my base, as i have to wait for a banshee to be ready. In the meantime I micro the drop. Once the banshee is ready i attack the M&M push with a handful of SCV (on autorepair) and behind those all the Hellions focus firing and kiting the marines. Only then I show up with the banhee that has to stutter the rest of marines and finally clean up the M&M. Dont be afraid f loosing SCV's...his base is empty when hit by ur Drop... | ||
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Toxi78
966 Posts
also something i wanna point out : never load 4 hellions and run across the map to drop, instead use the hellions till the last second to have map control, while flying the medivac, then run the hellions to the medivac near the base of the enemy and drop. if he makes something funky, you will be able to use your hellions easily. dont be afraid of losing SCVs. pump banshees out when you see MM pushes, vikings on ground, hellions from all sides, and surround with SCVs. i agree that MMM can be hard to beat sometimes. also something i wanna say : do not think it is the build / composition that limits you when you lose to gold players : obviously i would beat these guys like they are nothing if i used it against them, so just emphasize on improving and you will crush them. | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
Doing it in diamond KR, works like a charm and flows very nicely - good for reactions, expo isnt late, easily transitions into 2 fact (3 fact) 2 port hellion tank banshee viking build that is oh so popular in KR atm. Just hate the fucking control required on these seperate units late game...hurts my right arm :/ | ||
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Carrera26
United States29 Posts
Did it on the ladder again and crushed the exact counter-push I was just talking about. Thanks for the great build! | ||
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lukasdesign
Switzerland93 Posts
I am never sure when i can dare to start switching. banshee harass allows me to estimate his viking count which i can counter. BUT If the opponent pushes I don't want to be short on Air-to-Ground. SO i regularly build to many banshees and vikings that are gonna be raped by a solid MM push. The Marauders, when kept in front, kill my Helllions and the marines kill my Banshees. Yesterday I lost to a guy who kind of lost 15 SCVs during the dropand a dozen more later on during my BFH harass into his natural. he invested in Turrets to prevent the Banshsee harass but was able to build up a solid MM ball with a raven and 3-4 tanks...he hit me at the 18 mark when I was leading the food count by 30 but i had only one BC. My micro was sub-par and voila...GG. i know that this is not at all the builds fault but mine as I should have had about 6-8 BC at that point of time...but hey that's my that life in the gold league...:-)) BTW: Toxi do you some newer replays of yourself? Would just love to see some more. Maybe facing some early on pressure. Even some more losses would be be appreciated. I really loved your games against Jinro and Happy. Your were so close to an upset there! | ||
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fallore
United States143 Posts
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