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Introduction :
Not being a fan of siege tanks TvT myself, ever since iEchoic posted his build I have adopted the hellion / air composition against Terran. Many people criticized iEchoic’s build for being too cheesy (“so basicly it’s a double factory blue flame hellion cheese into 2 starport banshee cheese huh”) and having obvious early game flaws, which I will detail later on. For these reasons I tried to make a build that would be able to transition into the same style while being less “cheesy” early in the game. With the patch and the fact that iEchoic went sort of inactive lately, I think this unit composition deserves a new thread. I also have my personal views on when the unit mix is the most effective, which isn’t explained in the original thread.
Flaws of the original build:
-Because of all the infrastructure you get, the build is REALLY easily scouted, and your opponent immediately knows what he will face not only in the next 5 minutes, but basically what your game plan for the whole game will be, and assuming he isn’t stupid he will react much better to everything you throw at him. The build is too obvious, you are basically showing your cards pre-flop and you still expect to beat experienced players? No way.
- It spends more resources on production facilities than you can really afford at this stage of the game : you don’t really need 2 factories and 2 starports at this moment, and you do not even use a reactor instead of making a second factory/starport early. Hell, the build even uses a supply drop because it’s so short on resources, and the facilities are barely all producing at the same time. The fact that you build the starports after 2 factories and blueflame makes them really late. We can do better.
-Cloak banshees. Whatever iEchoic says, with perfect execution of the build, cloak banshees were a PAIN to deal with. We have to be safer.
My build:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189624¤tpage=42#829
I posted it on the actual thread long ago, but got no attention for it, which is sad. Check the replays, it is worth a thousand words.
I'm going to rewrite it :
12 rax 13 refinery standard opening, 1 marine OC constant scv production
at about 75% of the marine, get 2nd refinery
factory
supply depot
techlab on baracks
fly the factory on the techlab, get hellion + blueflame
get starport asap
get reactor on barracks asap
supply depot
hellion
hellion
starport on reactor, get viking + medivac
get a depot at the same time
make a 2nd starport if you don't have the clear read "he will go cloak banshees" otherwise get a raven before the 2nd starport
factory on reactor , starport on techlab
produce hellions, banshees, vikings, raven (reactionary)
get a command center sometime around 50 supply (you should have an excess of ressources)
Why is it better?
As I said, it gets units and production facilities out in a much more natural way, and it’s almost impossible to scout really early that you will transition into hellions / air, because if he spends a scan (you have to run the hellions out of scan range before he does, unless you expect a reaper opening, ie if you saw techlab on barracks with your scv), he will only see reactor going up on the barracks, a starport, and an upgrading techlab@factory, which looks more like a siege tank push or siege expand than any hellions shenanigans. I do not say it’s ‘unscoutable’, it’s just way less obvious that you are going for a hellion drop into the so called “iechoic” composition.
Unit mix ?
Please read :
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IEchoic's_2fac_2port_TvT , it explains the composition quite well.
My thoughts on it: banshees are bad, I prefer battlecruisers in most situations. What I do is when I am floating my expand, I get a third starport near my barracks while getting a reactor, and I get a fusion core, taking the 2 gases and I start getting BCs off 2 starports and vikings off the reactored one. I rely mostly on hellions early in the game, and BCs later, banshees are there to end the game if I made a lot of damage or to defend while I transition into BCs. BCs are now very good units since they move a lot faster, and they can clean up marines (banshees can't). Getting armor upgrades is really important (in these replays I do not do it, but I started to do it now, it's really a must to beat marines).
When are you strong?
The unit composition you get is, in my opinion, really strong early in the game or in low econ/unit count situations, which means that when you both do damage to each other early on, you will get ahead with the next drops / attacks you make. Late game, hellions are a great mineral dump, and when both armies just fought and you have 10+ hellions from your reproduction , you will be able to kill TONS of SCVs with a hellion run-by, it’s so strong. I personally think that banshees suck, I usually get them to survive counter pushes (after the drop, doesn’t matter if it went well or not) that bad players make (because (counter) early pushes get CRUSHED by hellions + scvs + a few air units) , once it’s crushed, the next hellion drop will make a ton of damage. To defend such pushes, you can also kite marines with hellions, then run at home and repair them if he decides to go for it. I personally crush thor all-ins with it, simply because hellions supported by SCVs and a Viking on ground and a banshee in the air (that’s what you have most of the time when he comes) will crush marines/scvs on ground, and the thor without repair will not kill everything you have (that’s just how it is…), and then the hellion drop will make huge damage. In mid game, this is where it gets dangerous for you, right when you are taking your expand (and just before you take the 3rd), a strong push can kill you during the transition into BCs, or a contain can get annoying. This is why you have to be active with hellions, sothat he is afraid to leave his base. So what you have to do is surviving the mid game (most of the time it’s not hard, but it can be problematic) and late game, when you have BCs, tons of bases and an awesome harassment tool, the hellions, you will be in good shape.
Counters?
Early game, the only counter is to have a strong defense of the hellion drop, but you should not do 0 damage at all (unless you are really bad :D) and 3 hellions killed (I only ever drop 3 hellions) does not mean a won game, the best thing for you is if your opponent actually thought so and goes for a counter attack : you will destroy him.
Turtling, contrary to what iEchoic says, is the strongest answer : while getting mass marines, some marauders, tanks (yes they are so annoying vs hellions), thors and starports (because after the first big fight, he can try to get air dominance), you can’t really harass in these situations, and fighting head-on can get risky because marines are really really good (did you know?). If your opponent invests too much in turrets and you have map control and a huge economy behind it, do not hesitate to transition into normal mech and use Vikings on the ground if he has mostly Vikings himself (this sounds very situational, watch the game vs nfteamBreach). Upgrade air armor against marines.
Mass thors : if I remember well, the games I lost in the replays here are against thors, do not hesitate to land Vikings if there are only thors left (no tanks around , that’s really important), they do well against Thors. Use the yamamoto cannons on thors that’s really important.
Against the now popular 3 reapers rush, you should be able to defend it with blue flame (you should have seen the techlab early, so the hellions must be in your base) unless it’s close air positions on metalopolis/shattered. What I do most of the time is pulling a few scvs near the cliff so I am sure that i can defend until I have blueflame, then you are fine (reapers are light).
Who am I ?
I come from warcraft 3 reign of chaos, which is like vanilla starcraft from what I know of starcraft 1, there still was a community after frozen throne was released, and I believe I was (and still am since I play in tournaments without laddering nowadays) the best player for the past 2 years, so I have a good RTS background and know what it is to compete with the best. I now play in the Spanish team Wizards, which is one of the best Spanish SC2 teams (with apsc2), and we are in SC2CL masters division (best European clan league). I was around 3700 masters before the reset I think, but I definitely improved a lot and will continue to do so next year, as I was a full time student this year ( same situation next year but with much less pressure in engineer school so I will have more time for myself). I am around 1800 masters nowadays, which is decent and allows me to play vs the best players in ladder (sase, beastyqt, etc).And yes, I already know that I am quite BM, no need to make posts about it.
Replays?
As I didn’t manage to upload the replays one by one on http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/ I posted the whole replay pack : [url blocked]
It includes replays against :
 Runaground
Beastyqt
control
CupCake (ThomasG, former wc3 pro)
DBS
Empires <-- grudge replay
Fargo
Ourk
Happy
Jinro
Breach
Rmdx
sda
Conclusion
I do not claim that this strategy is flawless nor do I execute it perfectly, otherwise I'd be in korea fighting for 80k$ already. It doesn't have a direct counter, your opponent has to play better than you. As you can see, the 2 players that are much better than me in the replays, jinro and happy, beat me, but the build allowed me to give them a good fight even though the better player won in the end. I can also lose games against players of my skill level if I make mistakes. Please do not post if you don't know what you are talking about ("yo i just get marauders vikings i know what you do so you cant drop me and i win izpz"). If you have beat me in ladder when I used this build and I didn't make huge obvious mistakes, then I can say 100% sure that you are not a worse player than me, IE the build didn't make me lose, you were better.
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Nice guide. Gonna try it. TvT is pretty frustrating if you don't know exactly what you are doing. There are so many ways to just lose from one second to the next.
Cheers.
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On July 13 2011 02:09 bylex wrote:
Nice guide. Gonna try it. TvT is pretty frustrating if you don't know exactly what you are doing. There are so many ways to just lose from one second to the next.
Cheers.
yes, TvT you have to be experienced to win games, otherwise you can still 1 base tank marine [air unit (medivac viking or banshee] rush and have a decent ratio, but it's not really satisfying.
do not hesitate to ask questions.
i'm amazed how on this forum, if you write a guide as a bronze league noob on how to 7 roach with all your drones you get 3 pages of answers, and if you write one about TvT with replays against jinro or beastyqt you get 1 single answer.
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Could you please rewrite your build In this thread? The one from the other thread is not really clear. Anyway the strat seems nice will try this out
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-Because of all the infrastructure you get, the build is REALLY easily scouted, and your opponent immediately knows what he will face not only in the next 5 minutes, but basically what your game plan for the whole game will be, and assuming he isn’t stupid he will react much better to everything you throw at him. The build is too obvious, you are basically showing your cards pre-flop and you still expect to beat experienced players? No way.
This line confuses me. Why wouldn't you be able to still beat a player if he knows what tech you are going? I was considering trying this stuff out but if it relies on your opponent not knowing I'm not quite sure if I like it. I like robust builds more.
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On July 13 2011 19:50 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +-Because of all the infrastructure you get, the build is REALLY easily scouted, and your opponent immediately knows what he will face not only in the next 5 minutes, but basically what your game plan for the whole game will be, and assuming he isn’t stupid he will react much better to everything you throw at him. The build is too obvious, you are basically showing your cards pre-flop and you still expect to beat experienced players? No way. This line confuses me. Why wouldn't you be able to still beat a player if he knows what tech you are going? I was considering trying this stuff out but if it relies on your opponent not knowing I'm not quite sure if I like it. I like robust builds more.
it does not rely on the opponent not knowing, it just doesn't give the information away for free.
see you go for a 4gate in PvP: if he knows, it's still strong, but if he doesn't know, it's even deadlier, so why letting him know?
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I honestly hated iechoic's build as soon as it became popular. Fights just became a matter of "who could build more vikings" with about five banshees and the rest being hellions.
TvT was really, really retarded for a while. Microing Vikings is less fun than having your hands amputated.
My personal view on the best tvt style is a very flowing transition into a raven and banshees to compliment your tank/marine or tank/hellion, and then working your way towards battlecruisers on 3 base with air superiority,
Tanks are just so unbelievably good at zoning a player, and mobility play for our race is just gimmicky. It works, but a gimmick shouldn't be your staple (Despite the awesomeness of the innovation)
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i've been doing almost the exact same build since iechoic's was released. i agree that it's the strongest build for tvt(at least for me) but you have to go echoic style with it and good players have adapted too much to it that it's pretty hard to execute it recently.
So for the past month or so i've been doing standard marine tank.. and getting crushed by other marine tank/bio players :<
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removed the spoiler tags, still thinking this deserves more attention than it gets compared to the countless "high plat, top5 gold" guides that pop up every day :/
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Still its a unit composition that has been posted before, you just get a different way of getting there
Still think a pure mech composition is stronger that this...
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Nicely written guide, and it's good to see you have worked towards a safer opening for a style that you enjoy. But in the end it's going to have the same strengths and weaknesses that iEchoic's build does. TvT remains a dynamic match-up with multiple viable ways of play.
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Don't get me wrong its a good guide, it just isn't really ground breaking because I think for the most part almost all Terrans have abandoned iEchoics style. I certainly don't run into it on the ladder almost ever now and even at its height it wasn't THAT popular. Sure it's viable but its really difficult for most people to make it work as well as standard play and more vulnerable to misclick losses.
Personally I find that tank/hellion/viking has nearly all of the strengths and non of the weaknesses of this style of play.
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Russian Federation68 Posts
Toxi78, thanks for nice build.
Can you provide futher details about it? I.E. it will be very cool if you will add replays and some comments how to adapt your build versus different common opepings like banshee opener, 3hellion drop, siege tank + viking/medivac contain, 3rax stim push(!!! seems strong vs your build). It will be much easier to understund how to run your build and be safe.
Anyway, i will watch those replays that you added here.
Thanks again.
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On July 27 2011 00:43 statikg wrote:
Don't get me wrong its a good guide, it just isn't really ground breaking because I think for the most part almost all Terrans have abandoned iEchoics style.
I watched GSL Up & Down yesterday and now watching it too, and all I see is Hellion (so many Hellions) and Banshees. True, they transition to tanks and something else later in the game, but I saw so many BF Hellions and cloaked banshees.... And the game between scfou and Noblesse is still on banshee, hellion strat as of now.
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I don't get it, really. You're just turtling, in a new way.
Isn't that kind of counterintuitive? If you're turtling, just do the style that is less likely to lose you the game in a single bad engagement.
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There is also something to be said about opening hellions on larger maps...you can kite marines against 2-3 tank timing pushes early, good defense + in base expand can stop banshee harass and put you ahead, after you can expand and add tanks with a quick third.
Position vikings to deny drops, start massing tanks, try to drop/runby/bait with hellions. If he moves out, make him lose scvs or at least force units to stay at home.
Who even goes marines anymore?
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Lol i guess this guide is why i saw the build popping up on ladder again haha ^^
very well written though! definitly gonna try it out if only to see how to counter.
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the problem is that i still feel strong with this strategy, but i am 100% sure it's possible to make the exact same opening and making a 2nd factory instead of the 2nd starport, and transitioning into mech, but as i dont really feel that i would win more than i do now if i made this mech transition, i'm not working on it.
i have actually thought of something : when you switch the 2, you get a raven before the 2nd production facility, and 2 hellions, you make an in-base CC when you are droping. you get 2 more hellions (you need 4 to defend counterpushes).
based on what you just saw in his base, you can do the following choices (you can do more than 1 of them at the same time, its not different paths):
-switch back reactor and factory, get 2 vikings, tank, siege tech
-get an additional starport (--> play the build i just explained)
-get an additional factory or even 2 because one will make hellions later(--> mech play, either with fast tanks / siege, or with hellions / air support into mech)
(get the add-ons with the racks to make it smoother)
but that's just a basis, now we have to think, based on what we see with our drop, what we want to transition into.
if you have ideas, we can discuss that.
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On July 29 2011 19:51 legend4411 wrote:
thanks for sharing.
ay no problemo.
if someone can help to develop the discussion i just posted, it would be nice, i think it has a lot of potential as a safe all around opener for TvT.
if you have questions about the build or the iechoic composition, i am sure i can help you, so do not hesitate =).
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i like namhcir's build better than iechoic's, although it could just seem like a better build because namhcir is on a higher level of gameplay than iehoic. out of respect for him i won't post his variant of this TvT build ;p
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Thanks a ton for this guide. I have been trying your build for a few days now and am finding it much easier to hold off banshees and other early pressure than with the iechoic version of the build. It also seems somewhat more forgiving of imperfect macro and any early game mistakes compared to the two factory version of the build.
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This seems pretty cool actually, will experiment! Thanks for the post!
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I think this version is better than iechoic's because of the timing. You get first hellion(5:10) and second starport(7:00) earlier.
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darn why have i not seen this thread until now? thanks for the guide! time to finish reading <3
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On July 13 2011 19:50 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +-Because of all the infrastructure you get, the build is REALLY easily scouted, and your opponent immediately knows what he will face not only in the next 5 minutes, but basically what your game plan for the whole game will be, and assuming he isn’t stupid he will react much better to everything you throw at him. The build is too obvious, you are basically showing your cards pre-flop and you still expect to beat experienced players? No way. This line confuses me. Why wouldn't you be able to still beat a player if he knows what tech you are going? I was considering trying this stuff out but if it relies on your opponent not knowing I'm not quite sure if I like it. I like robust builds more.
It is because the one thing iEchoic's build lost to was a fast thor, because he would simply rely on battle cruisers late game to combat thors, which you can't exactly get off of one base. Really the only reason anyone would get a super fast thor now-a-days is if someone saw the 2 factories and 2 starports on one base, and because iEchoic's style is the only one that uses these 4 production facilities so quickly you basically lost if your opponent knew what you were doing. That's not to mean the build isn't robust though, since it presents itself as a much more standard build and really, who rushes thors?
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I just found that when marines is upgraded with stim pack, hellions die so fast. 
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Crap! I never thought about putting the reactor on the starport to get an early Viking! I did this exact build for a while except the part about switching the barracks with the starport. I simply tried to make "enough" marines to not die to a banshee. Thanks!
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On July 31 2011 19:31 legend4411 wrote:I just found that when marines is upgraded with stim pack, hellions die so fast.
engage with battlecruisers
while marines are shooting battlecruisers, attack with hellions
?????
Profit
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Thanks for the guide! Definitely looking to try this out, since it looks really similar to what a lot of players are doing at MLG recently (except this build has fewer Starports, more Factories). Just a quick question though--what do you get the Raven for? For detection? PDD? Auto-turreting siege lines? I'm asking just so I get a better understanding of what you're really going for in this build. Thanks again!
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On August 01 2011 02:03 whoopingchow wrote:
Thanks for the guide! Definitely looking to try this out, since it looks really similar to what a lot of players are doing at MLG recently (except this build has fewer Starports, more Factories). Just a quick question though--what do you get the Raven for? For detection? PDD? Auto-turreting siege lines? I'm asking just so I get a better understanding of what you're really going for in this build. Thanks again!
Helps control the air. PDD means your vikings get more shots that connect, so even if you're down in viking count, you're ahead with PDD.
A spotter. And occasional auto turret when the situation arises. Spots for cloakshees. 1raven 1viking is what a LOT of seem to get against banshee openings.
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i only get a raven if i have the read that my enemy is going banshee with cloak.
either way, if i get it and he doesn't do cloak banshee, a raven is a very useful unit to have to defend pushes, push yourself or to use later in viking wars, or even against a thor (saves a few hits).
nowadays i almost always go for this though, as it is the safest and the raven is awesome.
i think medivac /viking into raven + 2nd factory can be a really solid build too, but for the time being i enjoy playing the air composition so i stick to it.
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looking at MLG, they are all trying to work towards my build i think ^^.
i really think there is a lot of potential in it, for me it's really the best all around TvT build.
but love is blind..
edit: except he put the starport on the reactor, and just made a single viking instead, boxer used this very build today.
he then made the mech transition i talked about earlier in the thread, he even made the CC as i suggested in my post (down page 1).
when i say this build is awesome, trust me.
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On August 01 2011 04:22 Toxi78 wrote:
looking at MLG, they are all trying to work towards my build i think ^^.
i really think there is a lot of potential in it, for me it's really the best all around TvT build.
but love is blind..
the difference is that they are all getting tanks in the mix, without tanks you cant beat a meching player, you simply cant...if he's has similar skill that is
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The issue about Hellion Banshee is the fact that you lack tanks. Against a Marine Tank player yeah you stand a strong chance because Marines die to Hellions, but against a Mech player you lose flat out unless you get lucky with the harass. Which the mech player may also. Thors destroy banshees, and if you keep making banshees, Terran is just gonna push with turrets.
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On August 01 2011 06:04 GinDo wrote:
The issue about Hellion Banshee is the fact that you lack tanks. Against a Marine Tank player yeah you stand a strong chance because Marines die to Hellions, but against a Mech player you lose flat out unless you get lucky with the harass. Which the mech player may also. Thors destroy banshees, and if you keep making banshees, Terran is just gonna push with turrets.
On August 01 2011 05:34 cilinder007 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 04:22 Toxi78 wrote:
looking at MLG, they are all trying to work towards my build i think ^^.
i really think there is a lot of potential in it, for me it's really the best all around TvT build.
but love is blind.. the difference is that they are all getting tanks in the mix, without tanks you cant beat a meching player, you simply cant...if he's has similar skill that is
If you do it right you still beat mech and it really isn't even close. If someone is going mech they are going to have what, a maximum of 4 vikings? You can get 4 vikings before 8 min into the game, and then if they are stupid and don't make more vikings all you have to do is simply make banshees the rest of the game. Idk if you've noticed but banshees > tanks. Not only that but they are cheaper than tanks by 25 gas, and that adds up pretty quick, so you can spend your extra gas into other stuff like upgrades, more banshees/vikings, marauders if you feel snazzy, or in your tech up to battlecruisers.
And if someone goes for thors, you have to A) Get BC's, which you should already be getting if you are proactive with scouting, and B) magic box your vikings + banshees. Zerg players do it, and Terrans can do it too, most just don't have the experience so they don't think to do it.
Viking/Banshee/BC/Hellion CAN and DOES beat every other T composition in the game, it just takes good scouting and proper response. It can be tricky at times but that's what gives it such a high skill ceiling.
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On August 03 2011 03:03 genius_man16 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 06:04 GinDo wrote:
The issue about Hellion Banshee is the fact that you lack tanks. Against a Marine Tank player yeah you stand a strong chance because Marines die to Hellions, but against a Mech player you lose flat out unless you get lucky with the harass. Which the mech player may also. Thors destroy banshees, and if you keep making banshees, Terran is just gonna push with turrets. Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 05:34 cilinder007 wrote:On August 01 2011 04:22 Toxi78 wrote:
looking at MLG, they are all trying to work towards my build i think ^^.
i really think there is a lot of potential in it, for me it's really the best all around TvT build.
but love is blind.. the difference is that they are all getting tanks in the mix, without tanks you cant beat a meching player, you simply cant...if he's has similar skill that is If you do it right you still beat mech and it really isn't even close. If someone is going mech they are going to have what, a maximum of 4 vikings? You can get 4 vikings before 8 min into the game, and then if they are stupid and don't make more vikings all you have to do is simply make banshees the rest of the game. Idk if you've noticed but banshees > tanks. Not only that but they are cheaper than tanks by 25 gas, and that adds up pretty quick, so you can spend your extra gas into other stuff like upgrades, more banshees/vikings, marauders if you feel snazzy, or in your tech up to battlecruisers. And if someone goes for thors, you have to A) Get BC's, which you should already be getting if you are proactive with scouting, and B) magic box your vikings + banshees. Zerg players do it, and Terrans can do it too, most just don't have the experience so they don't think to do it. Viking/Banshee/BC/Hellion CAN and DOES beat every other T composition in the game, it just takes good scouting and proper response. It can be tricky at times but that's what gives it such a high skill ceiling.
It's a gross oversimplification to say that Viking/Vanshee/Vattlecruiser/Hellion beats every other Terran composition--it does, but not exactly.
If you have air dominance, then his Vikings are moot and your Banshees reign supreme.
This forces Thors, which forces Battlecruisers as a response.
This forces the mech player to stop making tanks and makes it so that he is massing Hellions and Marines as the mineral dumps. Hellions to harass and marines to help the thors.
At this point both players have highly immobile armies of battlecruisers vs Thor+tank. All the while hellion harass from both sides kill all scvs.
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On August 04 2011 03:14 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 03:03 genius_man16 wrote:On August 01 2011 06:04 GinDo wrote:
The issue about Hellion Banshee is the fact that you lack tanks. Against a Marine Tank player yeah you stand a strong chance because Marines die to Hellions, but against a Mech player you lose flat out unless you get lucky with the harass. Which the mech player may also. Thors destroy banshees, and if you keep making banshees, Terran is just gonna push with turrets. On August 01 2011 05:34 cilinder007 wrote:On August 01 2011 04:22 Toxi78 wrote:
looking at MLG, they are all trying to work towards my build i think ^^.
i really think there is a lot of potential in it, for me it's really the best all around TvT build.
but love is blind.. the difference is that they are all getting tanks in the mix, without tanks you cant beat a meching player, you simply cant...if he's has similar skill that is If you do it right you still beat mech and it really isn't even close. If someone is going mech they are going to have what, a maximum of 4 vikings? You can get 4 vikings before 8 min into the game, and then if they are stupid and don't make more vikings all you have to do is simply make banshees the rest of the game. Idk if you've noticed but banshees > tanks. Not only that but they are cheaper than tanks by 25 gas, and that adds up pretty quick, so you can spend your extra gas into other stuff like upgrades, more banshees/vikings, marauders if you feel snazzy, or in your tech up to battlecruisers. And if someone goes for thors, you have to A) Get BC's, which you should already be getting if you are proactive with scouting, and B) magic box your vikings + banshees. Zerg players do it, and Terrans can do it too, most just don't have the experience so they don't think to do it. Viking/Banshee/BC/Hellion CAN and DOES beat every other T composition in the game, it just takes good scouting and proper response. It can be tricky at times but that's what gives it such a high skill ceiling. It's a gross oversimplification to say that Viking/Vanshee/Vattlecruiser/Hellion beats every other Terran composition--it does, but not exactly. If you have air dominance, then his Vikings are moot and your Banshees reign supreme. This forces Thors, which forces Battlecruisers as a response. This forces the mech player to stop making tanks and makes it so that he is massing Hellions and Marines as the mineral dumps. Hellions to harass and marines to help the thors. At this point both players have highly immobile armies of battlecruisers vs Thor+tank. All the while hellion harass from both sides kill all scvs.
Pretty sure BCs are MUCH more mobile than tanks and thors
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Can anyone help me out, i've been trying out this build and the Blue flame kills a lot of scvs but the opponent goes 1-1-1 marine tank viking.
Do i need to delay his instant counter en route to my base because once he has 4 siege tanks outside my base i can't do anything. I feel that thats the only push that I have to fend off and i've won since i killed almost all of his scvs but i needed like 1 more min to be able to fend it off
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How does this opening defend against a 1base marine tank opening? i find that I can kill pretty much any blue flame opener with a push with a few marines and my first tank (and medivac), and proper micro of course 
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By having a banshee.
I'm not even kidding. The hellions focus fire the marines, and the banshee picks off the tank.
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The two factory blue flame hellion is for aggression stopping and early map control, how is that cheesy?
Before when using this build I had serious problems against Reaper openings and that was with 2 fac, one factory simply could not be able to hold early marine, etc. aggression.
This does work as a macro-map version though I'll give you that much, but then you go on and say 3port 2 Battlecruiser +1 armor/Yamato timing attack and I'm completely lost...
Assuming your hellion harass does zero. How is a slow, meaty attack like battlecruisers going to sort the early problem of not having an army.
And a 3-Reaper rush would demolish this build utterly.
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On August 04 2011 11:16 aaycumi wrote:
The two factory blue flame hellion is for aggression stopping and early map control, how is that cheesy?
Before when using this build I had serious problems against Reaper openings and that was with 2 fac, one factory simply could not be able to hold early marine, etc. aggression.
This does work as a macro-map version though I'll give you that much, but then you go on and say 3port 2 Battlecruiser +1 armor/Yamato timing attack and I'm completely lost...
Assuming your hellion harass does zero. How is a slow, meaty attack like battlecruisers going to sort the early problem of not having an army.
And a 3-Reaper rush would demolish this build utterly.
theorycrafting, and obviously you are a bad player.
you jump from point to point with retarded conclusions.
where did i say i make a timing attack ?
hellion harass never does zero over the course of a game. obviously if it does, since i based my tactic on it, then i'm going to lose.
where did i say i tech to battlecruisers?
if you read half of what i say do not post in this thread.
i talked about the reaper openings, i talked about the banshees, i talked about the harass and i said, if you are an idiot theorycrafting, do not come here posting "i know you drop you make 0 damage i win ezpz".
please stop posting.
On August 04 2011 05:48 xza wrote:Can anyone help me out, i've been trying out this build and the Blue flame kills a lot of scvs but the opponent goes 1-1-1 marine tank viking. Do i need to delay his instant counter en route to my base because once he has 4 siege tanks outside my base i can't do anything. I feel that thats the only push that I have to fend off and i've won since i killed almost all of his scvs but i needed like 1 more min to be able to fend it off
you have to produce hellions out of the reactored factory. it is REALLY important.
when he is making the death push after losing his whole eco, all you have to do is hold.
use your scvs.
produce banshees 2 at a time if he is pushing, it's really important too.
if you only have half your scvs after the push, what do you care? you have to save the medivac throughout the game, low eco vs low eco, blue flame hellions will end it for you.
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Sorry for the bump (or perhaps the OP appreciates it ), but would this build transition well into your standard mech play after the viking and medivac? Sorry if the question was already asked, lots to read through!
I think the idea of getting a quick medivac and viking is great, but after that I do prefer the tank style mech we've been seeing.
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Hi Toxi,
First tanks to this improvement of the echoics build.
I watched yesterday your replays especially the one vs an hard turtling player on dhatered temple (~40 mn long).
He covered its base with turrets.
What Do you think is the best response ? I really struglled with this in ladder
- Yamato all the turrets one by one.. Very loong
- pdd the turrets n drop a bunch of hellions to kill all scv ?
- land vikings n kill turrets, but with the risk of getting trap
- or just get all the map ( you took only your half in the replay)
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On August 10 2011 05:08 LordLuo wrote:Sorry for the bump (or perhaps the OP appreciates it ), but would this build transition well into your standard mech play after the viking and medivac? Sorry if the question was already asked, lots to read through! I think the idea of getting a quick medivac and viking is great, but after that I do prefer the tank style mech we've been seeing.
i personally think that it is actually a very good transition, instead of getting the 2nd starport, to get a 2nd factory, a cc, and a 3rd factory, but i haven't been working on it because i personally really enjoy the air play.
On August 11 2011 17:37 Kortex22 wrote:
Hi Toxi,
First tanks to this improvement of the echoics build.
I watched yesterday your replays especially the one vs an hard turtling player on dhatered temple (~40 mn long).
He covered its base with turrets.
What Do you think is the best response ? I really struglled with this in ladder
- Yamato all the turrets one by one.. Very loong
- pdd the turrets n drop a bunch of hellions to kill all scv ?
- land vikings n kill turrets, but with the risk of getting trap
- or just get all the map ( you took only your half in the replay)
this is what i struggle the most with, turtle.
if i remember well, what i did was going for his production where less turrets were planted, in order to make him come and kill his army, because i knew i was really far ahead in macro.
if you are THAT far ahead, you can transition back into mech and kill the turtle because it is really hard to beat mass turrets with air.
as i said also, if he has no tanks, landing vikings makes his investment useless, you can do some damage, then you lose them, and you free up supply in an exchange as opposed to losing your vikings to a bunch of turrets and his own vikings.
i used to yamato turrets one by one in the past when there were moderate numbers of turrets, but this guy really brought it to a whole new level.
something else i wanted to address : i watched namhcir play yesterday against SC, and he basicly made a much weaker version of the build and still beat him : he didn't get a reactor early. the reactor is soooooo awesome and fits so well in this tight build and everything you want to get.
on a side note, i keep using the build, i beat empirekas the other night with it, it's still going strong ^^
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You beated Kas ?? Could you add the replay ?
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thios is basically my build stolen only that u atke teh sec gas even earlier so its easy to socut and people know hard tech is coming :D
edit: sry i jsut checked ur post on iechoics thread and it seems liek u found the build by urslef and we both kinda develloped it nearly the same way, i only do this build in all my tvts and even though people know whats coming i still have about 85% win with it so that lewts me to teh conclusion its solid, great post then 
many replays and vods of it here : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227711
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On August 13 2011 04:52 mEtRoSG wrote:thios is basically my build stolen only that u atke teh sec gas even earlier so its easy to socut and people know hard tech is coming :D edit: sry i jsut checked ur post on iechoics thread and it seems liek u found the build by urslef and we both kinda develloped it nearly the same way, i only do this build in all my tvts and even though people know whats coming i still have about 85% win with it so that lewts me to teh conclusion its solid, great post then many replays and vods of it here : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227711
yeah i can assure u i came up with it myself, its only talking with a few guys later that ur name popped up.
i always do this build in TvT, i was in semifinal of craftcup today, won vs turuk and poyo with it (though i beat better players in tvt in ladder with it too), it was so hardcore rape with this build.
unfortunately i kept discing later, and couldn't play vs goody, so i gave him defwin.
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good day sir!!
I have been using your build and playstyle for some time now and it works out great most of the time.
There's only one unit comp which beats me almost everytime: A meching terran, who goes for tank hellion first and transitions into thor (around 5) and mass viking.
The problem I have is when they focus fire my battle cruisers and then they are free to pwn my base with the thors.
Any idea what to do against this comp?
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On August 13 2011 23:08 OmegaKnetus wrote:
good day sir!!
I have been using your build and playstyle for some time now and it works out great most of the time.
There's only one unit comp which beats me almost everytime: A meching terran, who goes for tank hellion first and transitions into thor (around 5) and mass viking.
The problem I have is when they focus fire my battle cruisers and then they are free to pwn my base with the thors.
Any idea what to do against this comp?
First off imma noob terran, but when it comes to this situation the answer I see is kinda simple. Great care i think is needed, you have to still have enough vikings to decimate his vikings, but you are gonna need a solid amount of Battlecruisers and quick yamato use to kill the thors. Thors in general are not too good against cruisers or vikings but mass thors will still do a lot of hurt. That said the greatest danger is losing air control because the vikings are the real danger in that they can kite you endlessly and drag you over the thors for the fight. I believe you need very solid scouting(i.e. repeated scanning) to make sure you have enough vikings to break his vikings while still having enough cruisers to yamato his thors out of the picture.
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i agree with what you just said, and i think that having ravens to make PDDs is really awesome vs viking / thor, not so much vs marines.
if you are in a turtle situation where you have time, get like 4 ravens and make a lot of PDDs.
if it's a push, use the raven you should have produced early (i always go viking / medi into raven now) and you should have 2 PDDs, they will completly change the outcome of the fight : you should never lose air superiority with PDDs , and then your problem will be the thors. again, overkilling the air is always good, assuming he doesn't have tanks (in your example), landing vikings on thors once you've cleaned up the air is a good move.
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Hi Everybody,
Yamato Cannon Online
Don't know if this is common knowledge or not, but I was always struggling with use of Yamato cannons. I Shift-clicked multiple targets and it took forever until the cannons where fired. Know I found out that keeping Z (on grid layout) pressed and spam clicking on the Thors etc fires the cannons of all the selected BCs in a rapid sequences...BOOOOM-BOOOOM-BOOOOM - Thors to ashes. This safes so much time!
Btw: This is true for all casters' special abilities!!!
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I personally love Air Terran / Iechoic, but although I had a massive win ratio in Silver with it I am having a lot more trouble in Gold now that I am emphasizing the quick BF Hellion drop vs. going straight to air and following up with Hellions.
As it is, once I get my 2 base infrastructure up and running I barely ever lose, but it seems that lately whenever my opponents see hellions and a low marine/no tank count with their 6 minute scan they just push the infantry hard with emphasis on Marauders. I am able to annihilate with my BF drop but I can't hold the stim counter push that hits at about the same time (7:30). Maybe that's just popular anyway nowadays because while I have no problem with marine tank, I just get overwhelmed by quick stimmed M&M.
I hate tanks and love this style, anybody face this or have ideas on adapting/surviving? Thanks.
P.S. Why not nuke turtling players? It's out of range of Siege Tanks, and either they pull back army and lose static defense, come out to attack when they don't want to and engage (which is what you want anyway)... or I guess stay and die. Turtling gives you the time and the cost isn't all that high compared to the cost of engaging a turtled and/or prepared Terran. Maybe a stupid Gold idea...
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On August 23 2011 02:27 Carrera26 wrote:
I personally love Air Terran / Iechoic, but although I had a massive win ratio in Silver with it I am having a lot more trouble in Gold now that I am emphasizing the quick BF Hellion drop vs. going straight to air and following up with Hellions.
As it is, once I get my 2 base infrastructure up and running I barely ever lose, but it seems that lately whenever my opponents see hellions and a low marine/no tank count with their 6 minute scan they just push the infantry hard with emphasis on Marauders. I am able to annihilate with my BF drop but I can't hold the stim counter push that hits at about the same time (7:30). Maybe that's just popular anyway nowadays because while I have no problem with marine tank, I just get overwhelmed by quick stimmed M&M.
I hate tanks and love this style, anybody face this or have ideas on adapting/surviving? Thanks.
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i agree that quick M&M pushes are kind of horrible to this build. Stimmed Marauders can just crush your base. The worst thing is that happens normally once my Medivac already left the base and is heading towards the enemies base.
I normally try to rally my new units more into the back off my base, as i have to wait for a banshee to be ready. In the meantime I micro the drop. Once the banshee is ready i attack the M&M push with a handful of SCV (on autorepair) and behind those all the Hellions focus firing and kiting the marines.
Only then I show up with the banhee that has to stutter the rest of marines and finally clean up the M&M.
Dont be afraid f loosing SCV's...his base is empty when hit by ur Drop...
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exactly.
also something i wanna point out : never load 4 hellions and run across the map to drop, instead use the hellions till the last second to have map control, while flying the medivac, then run the hellions to the medivac near the base of the enemy and drop.
if he makes something funky, you will be able to use your hellions easily.
dont be afraid of losing SCVs. pump banshees out when you see MM pushes, vikings on ground, hellions from all sides, and surround with SCVs.
i agree that MMM can be hard to beat sometimes.
also something i wanna say : do not think it is the build / composition that limits you when you lose to gold players : obviously i would beat these guys like they are nothing if i used it against them, so just emphasize on improving and you will crush them.
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Toxi I fucking fell in love with your build. Gimme my heart back you asshole
Doing it in diamond KR, works like a charm and flows very nicely - good for reactions, expo isnt late, easily transitions into 2 fact (3 fact) 2 port hellion tank banshee viking build that is oh so popular in KR atm. Just hate the fucking control required on these seperate units late game...hurts my right arm :/
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I practiced the opener a few dozen times in YABOT till I could have dropped BF hellions in at about 7:00 and (more importantly) could keep up production while moving out/doing the drop. Think that was my big failing, spent 100% of my attention on the drop micro and wouldn't have any follow up units for the counter.
Did it on the ladder again and crushed the exact counter-push I was just talking about. Thanks for the great build!
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Actually my problem is less the BFH drop then the follow up with banshees. I try to put down the CC in my base and harrass with banshees. While setting up the natural i often over commit to banshsee production and just miss the BC switch.
I am never sure when i can dare to start switching. banshee harass allows me to estimate his viking count which i can counter. BUT If the opponent pushes I don't want to be short on Air-to-Ground. SO i regularly build to many banshees and vikings
that are gonna be raped by a solid MM push. The Marauders, when kept in front, kill my Helllions and the marines kill my Banshees.
Yesterday I lost to a guy who kind of lost 15 SCVs during the dropand a dozen more later on during my BFH harass into his natural. he invested in Turrets to prevent the Banshsee harass but was able to build up a solid MM ball with a raven and 3-4 tanks...he hit me at the 18 mark when I was leading the food count by 30 but i had only one BC. My micro was sub-par and voila...GG.
i know that this is not at all the builds fault but mine as I should have had about 6-8 BC at that point of time...but hey that's my that life in the gold league...:-))
BTW: Toxi do you some newer replays of yourself? Would just love to see some more. Maybe facing some early on pressure. Even some more losses would be be appreciated. I really loved your games against Jinro and Happy. Your were so close to an upset there!
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is there a reason for eschewing additional marine production on the barracks in order to get a faster blue flame? i guess it means you can drop quicker, but i'm having a hard time defending drops when all i have to defend is a viking and a marine
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What do you feel on getting a good amount of ravens to get some seeker missiles going?
I always find it dificult to select how much of everything get on my starports...
I also have problems on what to get once I already have 3starport, 1 reactored factory and 1 rax. More starports? Transition into mech? Is bio totally off this build always? I guess it depends on what you scout, but still, any thoughts on what to get? That would be really appreciated!
I'm a Gold-Plat level player.
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I read this post and figured, what the heck, I'll give it a shot.
For my first time, I executed fairly well. My opponent thor rushed and I died. The irony. Luls.
Build still seems very viable--gonna have to experiment to figure out how to deal with a thor rush, as it popped my units far faster than my SCVs could repair them. Lost half my SCVs in the process and I left when the next thor showed up 30 seconds later. Probably mis-micro on my part, though then again he brought half his SCVs to repair.
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Hi Toxi,
Do you think that because of the hellion's nerf in patch 1.4 the build has to be tweaked ?
I think the build is still strong in the mid game because hellions will still 3 shots marines with shield but in the early game :
-BFH is not required to drop because you won't do more damage to the scvs
- it will be tough to survive to bio push because you won't two shots marines w/o shields anymore
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Lux, you need to deal with the Thor rush by immediately dropping his base with 3 hellions. They *will* take a ton of damage, and you will lose a fair few SCVs. Hopefully, they take more damage than you.
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Am I right that we are in the last days of this fun BO/strat?
I don't see a way how this build could survive the upcoming BFH nerf. This makes me kind of sad as it means that we might be forced back to Marine/Tank/Viking. I don't know how the nerf will affect mid game/late game of this build but I am quite sure it will be next to impossible tot stop an early marine pressure. I am not even talking about an Marine/Scv all-in. Just take an 2 RAX FE with some serious marine pressure to safe the expansion.
Lately so many nice terran builds all revolving around the BFH popped up. Just think about Synystr's Thor/BFH in TvZ...i guess most of them will be obsolete in a couple of days.
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I've been using this build for a while with great success, but I have a few alterations that I think make the build stronger without cutting anything (to my knowledge). The first is that you can produce two marines from the barracks before you drop your factory, the second is a bunker after you put your factory down, and the third is an additional marine after your tech lab completes. These additions don't slow anything down, but make you much stronger against early marine/rauder pressure, hellion run-ups, and gives you additional units to fend off an incoming drop or banshee.
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i am disgusted and i think i will quit this game.
hf
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i actually do a similar build, which i think might do significant early game dmg vs this one. I get an 11 rax, tech lab after marine, then rauder, then expand bfor depot. pressure with i rine rauder, conc shells. if ur opponent doesnt get a bunker, u can kill 2 rines + sum scv 90 % of the time, as well as a complete scout. transition after expo mirrors this build almost exactly.
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Hellion air is still viable, just is more effective to wait longer for bf because it still 3 shots marines with shields. The drop can just come without bf and still do damage.
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Hi Toxi
Does this build change due to the new patch 1.4?
I think the drop BF should be updated ? How do you play it now ?
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i stopped playing sc2 because i don't have the time to make a full analysis of the game every 2 weeks when blizzard decides to change the whole game because of a bunch of noobs cannot counter a certain harass or strategy.
i believe in a game where stuff balances itself out.
the strategy still exists, but i'm no longer going to update this thread.
i actually came here to watch what the build was because some dude challenged me and i have to play him tonight, and i don't even remember my own build.
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On December 28 2011 23:55 Toxi78 wrote:
i stopped playing sc2 because i don't have the time to make a full analysis of the game every 2 weeks when blizzard decides to change the whole game because of a bunch of noobs cannot counter a certain harass or strategy.
i believe in a game where stuff balances itself out.
the strategy still exists, but i'm no longer going to update this thread.
i actually came here to watch what the build was because some dude challenged me and i have to play him tonight, and i don't even remember my own build.
I am sad about your last post, this was an amazing guide.
But I understand the sentiment. Blizzard make way too many, too frequent balance changes.
That said, this thread needs a bump as I have met this "sky terran" a few times now and it is monster-crushing my standard hellion-marine map control into mech style.
Does anyone else do this in the current game?
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EPT
