EPTI wish people would use less + Show Spoiler + tags in their guides.
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[G] Doc's Somewhat Definitive Guide to TvZ - Page 8
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zatic
Zurich15366 Posts
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alphafuzard
United States1610 Posts
On July 12 2011 13:39 deathtrance wrote: So, I don't see ultras mentioned all that much in this guide. I went into the late game with a zerg, and he went ling/ultra, and rolled over my marine/tank army like it was nothing. I got out thors and ghosts and hellions, but he just rolled over it again. I was proactive with my drops (denying his fourth, getting my 5th up), I had gotten the gold (he didn't), and somehow, I still lost. Btw, I'm a gold terran. So what's one to do against ultra/ling? It has a lot to do with micro and positioning and UPGRADES!!! First off all, although it may seem counter-intuitive, you want the ultras to be attacking your marines so that they do not get bonus damage. Practice your kiting and spreading micro to minimize splash damage from both the ultras and your tanks, and make sure your tank lines are nicely spread out and deep to draw the zerg into over-committing. The more chokes the merrier, as this will maximize your tanks' damage and disallow ling surrounds. You can certainly beat ultra ling with standard marine/tank/medivac play however special units can help too. Ghost snipe is okay if you are very good with it (there is a guide on how to snipe effectively on tl, just search) Thors with cannons do fairly well but is tricky to use and thors kinda suck anyway except a few against muta heavy strategies. Blue flame hellions can clear out mass zerglings very quickly but do tickling damage to upgraded ultralisks. Again, upgrades are key as unupgraded marines against fully upgraded ultras is humorous in a grotesque sort of way. | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On July 12 2011 14:57 zatic wrote: + Show Spoiler + I wish people would use less + Show Spoiler + spoiler The purpose is the its easier to navigate to each section of the guide, rather having to do massive scrolling. I don't see what the problem is. | ||
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The.Doctor
Canada333 Posts
On July 12 2011 13:39 deathtrance wrote: So, I don't see ultras mentioned all that much in this guide. I went into the late game with a zerg, and he went ling/ultra, and rolled over my marine/tank army like it was nothing. I got out thors and ghosts and hellions, but he just rolled over it again. I was proactive with my drops (denying his fourth, getting my 5th up), I had gotten the gold (he didn't), and somehow, I still lost. Btw, I'm a gold terran. So what's one to do against ultra/ling? He had to have had something before ultras popped out no? If he didn't, you can just attack with mass marine and unsieged tanks before they do as lings are terrible in mass marine v mass ling battles. In general, you should be dropping like crazy but let's say he does get ultras out, you should see this coming with your drops in which case you need to make marauders and kite the ultras. Unsieged tanks are actually better against ultras unless they have more lings than ultras or if they have banes mixed in. Try to fight closer to the Z when he has ultras so you can keep kiting back rather than having no place to run if it's close to your base. Oh and if you haven't been keeping up in upgrades, you're so screwed. On July 12 2011 14:46 pwei wrote: Thank you for posting this. This is a veritable gold mine. I've been reading and re-reading to synthesize everything. A couple quick questions: - Do you have a way of making the reaper-first builds 6-pool safe? Or is this (as it seems to me) a straight build order loss? - If going reaper first on Scrap Station, do you recommend Jinro's ultra-forward Rax&Factory wall-off? I'm not confident about how safe the timings are here, especially during the Rax-Lift. - Would you ever drop your expo directly at your natural on a slightly bigger map (say, on Terminus or Tal'Darim)? Thanks for the guide. Please do expound on the mid-game section when you have a chance. I'm really looking forward to it. I don't think I've ever been 6 pooled lol. Maybe once in a tournament by a Bronze player but I had a wall. Depending on the wall off you have, if the tech lab is facing towards your main and away from the attacking lings, you can just cancel it and make a marine while repairing with a few scvs or just go ahead with the reaper. If the tech lab is facing the lings for your wall, your best bet is to add a bunker in your mineral line, another rax and then wait til he out he destroys the forming tech lab and try to escort a marine over with scvs. IDK really, never been in that situation but that's what I feel would be the most logical response. I don't play on scrap but when I did, I would do a 1rax FE and then add 2 more rax to wall diagonally from my main ramp to the corner of the chasm on the road towards my natural. I'd then do a tank push through middle with turrets, bunkers and tanks on the edges. That map sucks though so I don't play it. Yeah I drop my expo at my natural on shakuras, tal'darim and terminus depending on the strat I'm doing. I don't usually do that while reaper expanding as there are some Z timings that can take it out but while 2 or 1 rax feing, it's safe. On July 12 2011 14:57 zatic wrote: + Show Spoiler + I wish people would use less + Show Spoiler + spoiler The guide is 19 pages when I post it in to MS word so if you like staring at a clusterfuck of words, more power to you. Can't please everyone, I 'spose. | ||
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The.Doctor
Canada333 Posts
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Icekommander
Canada483 Posts
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Dajibjaw
Canada83 Posts
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Tuplex
80 Posts
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cilinder007
Slovenia7251 Posts
On July 13 2011 14:32 Tuplex wrote: Thanks Doc, this is a great guide. I'm a high Gold player, and my TvZ went from basically unwinnable to now being probably my best matchup. I've been doing the 12/14 rax into stim/tank build. The 2-rax opening is awesome against an early hatch, in fact I've had a couple of games where it's either gg after the marine push, or I take out the natural. I still have trouble with mutas, but it's getting better. Now when the mutas go into my base, instead of running around like an idiot, I just attack an expansion with my MMT army. Go ahead, I'll trade my SCV's for your base thats actualy not a good idea, you dont want to go into a bse race against mutas, ever..... | ||
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minimalistic
Hungary157 Posts
"If zerg goes 14/15 hatch Your SCV scouts gas and drones pulling out after 100 gas (DRG v sCfOu style). Z is going to get speed and hatch. They'll have a weaker mineral income because of this." my question is why would they have weaker income if they pull out of gas and mine minerals with 3 more drones? And they get speed and a 3rd hatch? I do not understand these. | ||
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Tuplex
80 Posts
On July 13 2011 18:11 cilinder007 wrote: thats actualy not a good idea, you dont want to go into a bse race against mutas, ever..... Yeah obviously the BEST thing to do, what I need to work on, is to scout better and be prepared for mutas before they become a problem. But in those occasions where I am not prepared, this has worked out better for me. Instead of chasing mutas back and forth between my bases, I just go attack with my main army, where most of my marines already are, and most of the time he brings the mutas over so I can deal with them. Of course if he has a lot of banelings too, then I'm screwed, but most of the time that's not the case since he just spent a lot of resources on mutas. I just hate chasing a pack of mutas all over the place and losing control of the game. That's the other reason I like to attack, it allows me to keep the initiative. While he's dealing with my attack I can get turrets up or start some thors... EDIT: I'm only Gold level so take this with a grain of salt, I'm not saying this is a good high-level tactic. | ||
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Also lol@ ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/2251.jpg) This guy calling you terrible after both your games rofl :D | ||
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TheWarbler
United States1659 Posts
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The.Doctor
Canada333 Posts
On July 14 2011 11:40 Hypemeup wrote: Glorious Guide dude. Now for the real challange, getting a GG from a zerg player :/ + Show Spoiler + Also lol@ This guy calling you terrible after both your games rofl :D HAHAHAHAHA On July 14 2011 13:42 TheWarbler wrote: I was wondering if you stream? Would be awesome if you did! added link in conclusion | ||
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HughJorgen
Australia37 Posts
Generally, there isn't really much zerg can do to kill you. I NEVER scan zerg in the early game until about 10 minutes if I haven't determined with the use of drops whether Z is going infestor or spire, that's about it. After that, I'll scan occassionally as I see fit to see their hive timing and then again to see if they're going greater spire or ultra den. Does nobody see anything wrong with this? I'm a very sad Zerg ;_;. Isn't that kind of like saying, 'Generally there isn't really any way a zerg can win, so don't bother working out what they're trying to do until they get greater spire or ultra den. | ||
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eu.exodus
South Africa1186 Posts
I use to use every build you mentioned in the op with no success. After reading your guide i now realise why. Thanks a shit load. I love solid gameplay like this. I got sick of not having a decent style vs that wasnt gimmicky. now its just to learn a bit of patience with tank micro and to learn from your replays. Just reading what you had to say about the matchup made me realise a lot of my mistakes. I can finally move forward  if i knew you in person id let you have my sister lol. Cant wait to get home! | ||
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MrArarat
Argentina132 Posts
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
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naggerNZ
New Zealand708 Posts
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Silentenigma
Turkey2037 Posts
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