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Nice. I've never tried the build v late gas but it sounds like an excellent idea. You can get some sick contains going as well. I'll try it out next time. It is really really strong against infestor first as well thoguh because you can just spread out marines and use bunkers with your push.
Your 2 fac close position was the game vs nrgostijy or somethin like that where he went fast infestors. That alone is just dirty enough for me, gas late or not. Against the late gas the 2 times I've done it so far, it does significant, if not game ending, damage. Late gas = late lair = late spire = late bane speed = late ling speed. Sure, 4-5 queens and 4-5 spine crawlers, but you still have slings and slow banes against a well spread tank marine push, with heavy tank count lol.
Very comphrehensive guide, much appreciated. I play terran on and off (zerg is my main race) but one problem I have as T is that I'm usually too afraid of a zerg counter attack if I push out. Is there any way to defend/deny a zerg counter attack (ling runby, mutas in my base etc.) while I push, or does the game just degrade into a base trade in that scenario?
Wall off nat with sim city with rax bunker depots etc. If your push is strong enough, the mutas always come back. I left 25 mutas in my base with +1 attack yesterday and attacked because what can I kill if I go back? 3? I go to his base, take out third, nat, and entire army + mutas when he was forced to engage with them.
So, in short, attack if your unprepared for mutas. I can't count the armies I've sacked to get turrets and 2 thors out in time to defend that fucking murder of mutas.
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Canada333 Posts
On July 09 2011 00:08 Adrenaline Seed wrote:
Great guide! What is the best way to handle Ultralisks? They are rather good at dealing with marine tank.
Late game, you'll have your ghosts for snipe hopefully and since you have tech lab rax you can start adding marauders too. Note, if he has just ultras, don't siege tanks. Unsieged tanks are a lot better vs ultras. If he has ultra ling bane, you want to focus fire banes with tanks like normal and then stutter step v ultras. The thing with ultras is they're very slow. Always stutter step and kite them with marauders and marines. If you've had your upgrades going all game, they should be no problem. If however you fell behind on upgrades, you are going to be in a world of hurt against 3/5 ultras.
On July 09 2011 02:34 minimalistic wrote:
At the korean transition after 2rax.:
@75 minerals refinery
@100% factory, add tech lab to it, start starport and 4th gas
@100% factory start tank
@100% stim, start combat
@100% starport, make medivac
@100% +1 weapons, start +1 armor
@2nd tank, start combat shields
After 2nd tank i suppose you start siege mode not combat shields again?
Nice catch, fixed.
On July 09 2011 04:41 Ghyslyn wrote:
For the 2 fact siege tank push(auto-win on close positions) you specify to float the CC down ASAP to get the extra gas income.
I assume you get the third gas as soon as the CC floats down, but when do you get the 4th gas? Is it instantly as well or will you delay it?
You don't want to start your 4th gas right away because then your mineral income will suffer too much. I don't have any specific timing for that build, but you can try adding it once you have 5 tanks.
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On July 09 2011 01:14 CapnAmerica wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2011 00:08 Adrenaline Seed wrote:
Great guide! What is the best way to handle Ultralisks? They are rather good at dealing with marine tank. If it's that late in the game you should have the infrastructure to produce Ghosts to counteract Broodlords. They're also quite good against Ultralisks and you can build some marauders as well if he's going heavy on their numbers (which is usually a terrible idea in ZvT).
Ghosts is best counter for Ultras? Never even thought.
It seems to happen a lot when I got tank marine med. Out of the blue 10 Ultras are produced and they just run over me. I don't feel like I am that far behind zerg. They can go 10 Ultras on 2 base if they are shifty enough.
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He lying about the tank focus fire... I promise... Leave my banes alone goddamnt!
Good guide, ya bastard
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On July 09 2011 06:03 gastro54 wrote:
He lying about the tank focus fire... I promise... Leave my banes alone goddamnt!
Good guide, ya bastard
Trust me, all Terrans are happy to leave banelings alone. It is only when they get too close that we start firing.
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On July 09 2011 06:16 Adrenaline Seed wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2011 06:03 gastro54 wrote:
He lying about the tank focus fire... I promise... Leave my banes alone goddamnt!
Good guide, ya bastard Trust me, all Terrans are happy to leave banelings alone. It is only when they get too close that we start firing.
That statement my friend is priceless. 
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This is mind-blowing! I've never known how to play TvZ and now just by reading I feel like a boss, thanks!
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On July 09 2011 06:16 Adrenaline Seed wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2011 06:03 gastro54 wrote:
He lying about the tank focus fire... I promise... Leave my banes alone goddamnt!
Good guide, ya bastard Trust me, all Terrans are happy to leave banelings alone. It is only when they get too close that we start firing.
They just want to hug you. ;_;
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Thank you for this great guide. My win ratio against zerg is increasing
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This is very good stuff. I decided to lift the Nada v. Coco game build too and have been doing it but you have added much more insight in this post. Look forward to incorporating the various tips in my play, especially how to interpret scouting information and the baneling target fire tip. Watching the replays now.
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In TvZ while everyone is doing +1 weapons for marines as priority, im doing + 1 armor. Also + 1 armor for factory units is better than +1 weapons for factory units. People try to justify +1 weapons for tanks because it counters + 1 armor for lings, but you should not use tanks to kill lings - that should be left up to the hellions.
Every single time tanks siege up late , they're dead as useless. Alpha strike at range 13 is a necessity, because tanks are expensive in gas and rarely pay for themselves. As seen in the GSL, all the terrans have to run their marines away from banelings even when tanks are already sieged and alpha strike at max range.
As the game goes on, zergs get + 1 melee attack as well, and tanks die so much faster. Every time broodlords come out in late game, tanks have to unsiege and the + 3 weapons don't help, in fact they cause so much friendly fire to the marines its better to not siege at all.
This is zerg's best possible scenario and terran's worst.
When you have around like 7+ tanks in late game tanks with +3 armor(tank), tanks unsieged with BFH hellions do much better against charging zerg army.(less friendly fire dmg as well)
See the Upgrade Analysis Data thread benefit table- armor upgrades are better for factory units and of course you should be upgrading both 3/3 for bio.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=116789.
Should consider reading it, helps for me TvZ.
BOth T and Z are triple upgrading, 3/3 for bio and continuously from armory, and zerg gets armor carapace + melee attack + spire.
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Ok I've been practicing 2 Rax into Siege Tank/Stim push and I have to say this is just stupid how good it is compared to what I did before. My old build was a reactored Hellion opener into the same push, but there were so many little things wrong with it that made the push look really small. The way you laid it out actually gives ~30 marines when I push which is almost double what my old build provided (assuming I keep the initial marines alive). I especially like it because it's less of a deviation from what the overall goal of the build is. Focusing money on Hellions means less marines for my push later and half the time you can't even use them for map control once they have ling speed anyway xD
Doc do you have any intentions of doing this for the other races? TvT would be super helpful since I don't exactly have solid builds for that either :D
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What prompts the +1 armor vs muta play on your mech? I assume it is about the bounce damage but is it about your tanks or is about thors and what other advantages are you getting out of it?
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Both reps vs darkcell he says you're terrible after u rape him LOL
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i never see a pro who goes for +1 armor on mech units..
i think at +2 attack you can 2shoot mutas with thors...
never thought about the advantage of tanks with armor upgrades against the zerglings..
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Canada333 Posts
On July 10 2011 03:58 vaderseven wrote:
What prompts the +1 armor vs muta play on your mech? I assume it is about the bounce damage but is it about your tanks or is about thors and what other advantages are you getting out of it?
As long as you're focus firing, your tanks will still be 1 shotting banelings (35 attack v 30 hp). If they get a ling armor upgrade, you won't be 1 shotting anymore but every ling will virtually be in the red for your marines to clean up. If he does get +1 armor on his lings (which he will), get +1 attack next. Armor so thor can take a lot more hits and same with tank. I usually do it in the order of +1 attack then armor after that b/c the tanks will now do 38 damage v lings and even if he gets +3 armor, your tanks still 1 shot.
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Marines + medis on one hotkey, tanks on another. No exceptions.
I'm 1900+ terran with 60%+ win rate and I think this is a foolish move. I see a lot of high ranking terrans do it, but they are playing poorly.
Using your suggested method: When I want to micro my marines and I need to move command them away to space out vs lets say zealots w/ out legs my medivacs stop healing and move with them. This is a huge problem for obvious reasons.
If you want to move your medivacs AND your marines you need to issue to move commands. Takes little effort if you're over 200 apm during battles and you will be putting out a lot more healing.
I'm a BW player so using all 10 hotkeys is something I'm used to. I see a lot of terrans with the 1 key for all units and the 3 key for all production and the 4 key for all CCs. I think it's more important to separate marines from medivacs on a key than it is to separate tanks... having medivacs move without healing causes a lot of people to lose games even on GSL level.
My hotkeys are usually like this but they change mid game
7-0 are production with 0 being ccs
1 mnm or hellions depending on opening later being mnm
2 medivacs
3 tanks
4-6 are my drops, vikings, counter attack marine/med squad, ravens, ghosts, whatever.
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Canada333 Posts
On July 10 2011 07:04 starcraft911 wrote:I'm 1900+ terran with 60%+ win rate and I think this is a foolish move. I see a lot of high ranking terrans do it, but they are playing poorly. Using your suggested method: When I want to micro my marines and I need to move command them away to space out vs lets say zealots w/ out legs my medivacs stop healing and move with them. This is a huge problem for obvious reasons. If you want to move your medivacs AND your marines you need to issue to move commands. Takes little effort if you're over 200 apm during battles and you will be putting out a lot more healing. I'm a BW player so using all 10 hotkeys is something I'm used to. I see a lot of terrans with the 1 key for all units and the 3 key for all production and the 4 key for all CCs. I think it's more important to separate marines from medivacs on a key than it is to separate tanks... having medivacs move without healing causes a lot of people to lose games even on GSL level. My hotkeys are usually like this but they change mid game 7-0 are production with 0 being ccs 1 mnm or hellions depending on opening later being mnm 2 medivacs 3 tanks 4-6 are my drops, vikings, counter attack marine/med squad, ravens, ghosts, whatever.
I used to do that but found that just putting everything on 1 isn't that bad. In battle against say a gateway army, i just ctrl+click my marines to pull the mbehind marauders, medivacs still healing, everyone is happy.
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EPT
