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I must say again, love the transitions. Cut off 20-40 seconds on many of my similar builds. I honestly, as a non 2 raxer, didn't know 11/12 rax was so potent compared to 12/14 rax.
Personally, the fast stim drop transition is about the sex cross map for me. The 2 fac tank push is becoming a staple in my 2 base pressure to secure a safe third. I found with the fast stim drop that the absolute damage is so insane when you execute it decently. Sets up solid map control until he can get a size of mutas to stop some drops, letting me get a fast third and 2-3 fac for a tank push follow up.
Good shit man. Needed to get away from my 1-1-1s. You know its sad when I never 2 rax, now 1650 masters, and even I can take down a 1750+ zerg in 6 minutes with a 2 rax marine push lol
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Hey.
I really like this thread - it's really clear, and super helpful. Thanks!
So anyway, assuming that I'm not all that great, and the moment I get into a game there's a good chance I'll forget everything about the different transitions and when they're useful and what opening to do on each map, what would you say is the best (by best, I mean most robust/least likely to fail horribly against the average zerg) set of opener/transition? It will also help for practise, so I can get better at the general themes without having to worry so much about whether this is the correct transition for this situation etc. etc.
Thanks!
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Canada333 Posts
On July 11 2011 01:37 ale_jrb wrote:
Hey.
I really like this thread - it's really clear, and super helpful. Thanks!
So anyway, assuming that I'm not all that great, and the moment I get into a game there's a good chance I'll forget everything about the different transitions and when they're useful and what opening to do on each map, what would you say is the best (by best, I mean most robust/least likely to fail horribly against the average zerg) set of opener/transition? It will also help for practise, so I can get better at the general themes without having to worry so much about whether this is the correct transition for this situation etc. etc.
Thanks!
Well the thing is, with Terran, you can do almost any transition because Z won't know it's coming and if you play it correctly, you can do a lot of damage with any, as long as you don't overcommit in non favorable conditions. E.g. you can always do a tank stim push, but if you see he has roaches lings and banes, it's best you fall back, add another factory, try dropping while making your 3rd CC. I'd say the best thing to do is a tank stim push as you start learning or blue flame after 12/14 raxing. Both are VERY safe and can transition very well against every scenario.
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When will you do a nice commentated stream next time Doctor? I am sure we would take a look to see you in action.
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Canada333 Posts
On July 11 2011 05:27 minimalistic wrote:
When will you do a nice commentated stream next time Doctor? I am sure we would take a look to see you in action.
Hmm I haven't been streaming as much as I used to but I guess I might stream today after a few tournament matches and NASL is done.
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On July 11 2011 05:20 The.Doctor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2011 01:37 ale_jrb wrote:
Hey.
I really like this thread - it's really clear, and super helpful. Thanks!
So anyway, assuming that I'm not all that great, and the moment I get into a game there's a good chance I'll forget everything about the different transitions and when they're useful and what opening to do on each map, what would you say is the best (by best, I mean most robust/least likely to fail horribly against the average zerg) set of opener/transition? It will also help for practise, so I can get better at the general themes without having to worry so much about whether this is the correct transition for this situation etc. etc.
Thanks! Well the thing is, with Terran, you can do almost any transition because Z won't know it's coming and if you play it correctly, you can do a lot of damage with any, as long as you don't overcommit in non favorable conditions. E.g. you can always do a tank stim push, but if you see he has roaches lings and banes, it's best you fall back, add another factory, try dropping while making your 3rd CC. I'd say the best thing to do is a tank stim push as you start learning or blue flame after 12/14 raxing. Both are VERY safe and can transition very well against every scenario.
Cheers. 
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This was amazing.
The one thing I feel its missing (or perhaps I didn't notice where you said it) is a notation on what the standard timing is for mutalisks and when to be ready for them.
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Tried the build myself a couple times over the weekend with varying degrees of sucess (cuz I'm a noob) but I noticed how you place all your production buildings on one key. I tried to do the same but found it rather awkward, since before I'd have my rax(s) on 4, factories on 5, and ports on 6. So I used to hit 4mmgg (or mmdd)5s6dd or the like. What's the hotkey sequence you press per production cycle with all your buildings on one hotkey?
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On July 11 2011 12:49 Trollhammer wrote:
Tried the build myself a couple times over the weekend with varying degrees of sucess (cuz I'm a noob) but I noticed how you place all your production buildings on one key. I tried to do the same but found it rather awkward, since before I'd have my rax(s) on 4, factories on 5, and ports on 6. So I used to hit 4mmgg (or mmdd)5s6dd or the like. What's the hotkey sequence you press per production cycle with all your buildings on one hotkey?
you just press tab to switch between production buildings, rather than dedicating different hotkeys to them. I'm considering adding this to my own setup as well.
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Canada333 Posts
On July 11 2011 12:49 Trollhammer wrote:
Tried the build myself a couple times over the weekend with varying degrees of sucess (cuz I'm a noob) but I noticed how you place all your production buildings on one key. I tried to do the same but found it rather awkward, since before I'd have my rax(s) on 4, factories on 5, and ports on 6. So I used to hit 4mmgg (or mmdd)5s6dd or the like. What's the hotkey sequence you press per production cycle with all your buildings on one hotkey?
4aaaaaaaaaaaaTABsssTABdd
I just find it easier, I do have some pretty small hands, but if you prefer 456 then do it that way TBH, whatever works best for you when it comes to hotkeys. As long as you're using them all, how you use them doesn't really matter.
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I really look forward to anything you are going to add that is specific on fighting certain mid compositions.
Again, great guide, I was surprised to read something so well done on TL.net
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On July 07 2011 19:14 The.Doctor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 19:07 Danglars wrote:If you want to win just 1aing, go play protoss. Fighting, fighting to keep reading after this. He might be a saint with on black wound, keep reading! Like dropping a big juicy dessert on the table, and saying the chef likes to wipe his butt with his hands after defecating. Like meeting a young attractive girl and hearing on the first date she used to be a man and wonders if you'll be okay with her going back. So too is a guide delivering so much content (that includes with a no-nonsense approach to marine/tank TvZ) with such balance rabble as you include in the opener. my TvP was around 10-20%. Yeah, seriously. I've since gotten my TvP a LOT better I hope, too, your opinions of Protoss will improve as well. Otherwise, great effort. Hahahahaha. Yeah I know I know. I just used to be so frustrated and there was a style I had a friend do where he would stay on 2 base and just do a 2 base colli + blink push that was SOO hard to stop. I'll edit it out, for you.
Thanks man! I like posts where I can give my full heartfelt: GOOD JOB GREAT GUIDE to it. Balance whining makes me do that mixed bag sentiment.
Everything except that one line was GOOD JOB GREAT POST, now ALL of it is so great!
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Russian Federation68 Posts
Nice guide. Thx alot. Waiting for more details about dealing with middle game zergs combos + BO desision making after first push.
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As a 1700 masters terran, I read this entire guide top to bottom and found it extremely useful as I have no reliable build order or transitions against Z. (I usually just go reactor helion -> cloak banshee lol) but I appreciate this and am definitely looking forward to improving.
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Korean Transition (This one is my favourite)
+ Show Spoiler +I first saw this build done by NaDa in the GSL.
Good On:
Larger maps
Good Against:
Delayed gas builds
Fast muta
The Build
The build, after a 2rax expand is:
Constant marine, SCV and supply depot production (as needed) after CC
24 Supply depot (or whatever supply you're at after CC)
@150 minerals 3rd rax
@75 minerals refinery
@150 minerals 4th rax
@75 minerals 2nd gas
@150 minerals 2nd OC
@100% 3rd rax tech lab
@100% tech lab start stim
Cut marine production a bit to add
@125 minerals Engi Bay, continue marine and scv production and at 100% engibay start +1 Weapons.
@150/100 factory
@75 minerals refinery
@100% factory, add tech lab to it, start starport and 4th gas
@100% factory start tank
@100% stim, start combat
@100% starport, make medivac
@100% +1 weapons, start +1 armor
@2nd tank, siege mode
From here, you choose whether you want to make more medivacs for more drops, vikings if they're going infestors or tanks to stop roach bane all ins as needed. You can choose to also add another factory or expand, depending on your style and the map.
Goals:
The goal of this build is to use marines for your map control. You should make sure the towers are clear and that he can't spread any creep after you've gotten 5-6 marines. If he went delayed gas, he won't be able to clear out the marines on the map for a long time as speed is delayed. Also, the larger your marine count gets, the harder and harder it gets for Z to take out the marines with just lings. If Z decides to take out your marines with just lings, you'll have a huge economic lead as they wouldn't have been droning in that time and they can't come kill you while you get your tanks and drops. You can kill any greedy zerg instantly and transition well in to a macro game. The really fast +1 style is an equivalent to Thorzain's really fast +1 vs protoss.
First of all great great thread about TvZ i like it very much. Well done doc 
Now my question(s):
I saw this build from NaDa in the GSL and NASL too but Bomber or NaDa in the early stages of the build done it a little different as here listed.
He got both Gas before the 3rd and 4th baracks. So he could upgrade Stim and Combat shields on the same time. But i don't test it at all how this influence the number of marines and the timing of Tanks with SiegeMode and the Starport with MediVac for drops. Do you think that type is worth it?
Another point what NaDa did in the early stages he "developed" this build (with early gas) was that he added 2 reactor while he builed his first tanks. What do you think about this type of play?
And my last question, is the timing of the starport. Maybe it catched the timing off mutas or not. But my idea is to build a viking with the starport to snipe overlords and pressure the zerg with this type of "strategy" too.
I'm very interested in your opinion and ideas as well.
best regards,
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Nice OP, you really have spent a lot of time preparing this MU. Not sure why the 2 fac tank push v Ost is in there though.. the win doesn't really have anything to do with the build. How would your strat have changed w.o close pos?
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Canada333 Posts
On July 12 2011 07:44 saaaa wrote:Korean Transition (This one is my favourite)+ Show Spoiler +I first saw this build done by NaDa in the GSL.
Good On:
Larger maps
Good Against:
Delayed gas builds
Fast muta
The Build
The build, after a 2rax expand is:
Constant marine, SCV and supply depot production (as needed) after CC
24 Supply depot (or whatever supply you're at after CC)
@150 minerals 3rd rax
@75 minerals refinery
@150 minerals 4th rax
@75 minerals 2nd gas
@150 minerals 2nd OC
@100% 3rd rax tech lab
@100% tech lab start stim
Cut marine production a bit to add
@125 minerals Engi Bay, continue marine and scv production and at 100% engibay start +1 Weapons.
@150/100 factory
@75 minerals refinery
@100% factory, add tech lab to it, start starport and 4th gas
@100% factory start tank
@100% stim, start combat
@100% starport, make medivac
@100% +1 weapons, start +1 armor
@2nd tank, siege mode
From here, you choose whether you want to make more medivacs for more drops, vikings if they're going infestors or tanks to stop roach bane all ins as needed. You can choose to also add another factory or expand, depending on your style and the map.
Goals:
The goal of this build is to use marines for your map control. You should make sure the towers are clear and that he can't spread any creep after you've gotten 5-6 marines. If he went delayed gas, he won't be able to clear out the marines on the map for a long time as speed is delayed. Also, the larger your marine count gets, the harder and harder it gets for Z to take out the marines with just lings. If Z decides to take out your marines with just lings, you'll have a huge economic lead as they wouldn't have been droning in that time and they can't come kill you while you get your tanks and drops. You can kill any greedy zerg instantly and transition well in to a macro game. The really fast +1 style is an equivalent to Thorzain's really fast +1 vs protoss. First of all great great thread about TvZ i like it very much. Well done doc Now my question(s): I saw this build from NaDa in the GSL and NASL too but Bomber or NaDa in the early stages of the build done it a little different as here listed. He got both Gas before the 3rd and 4th baracks. So he could upgrade Stim and Combat shields on the same time. But i don't test it at all how this influence the number of marines and the timing of Tanks with SiegeMode and the Starport with MediVac for drops. Do you think that type is worth it? Another point what NaDa did in the early stages he "developed" this build (with early gas) was that he added 2 reactor while he builed his first tanks. What do you think about this type of play? And my last question, is the timing of the starport. Maybe it catched the timing off mutas or not. But my idea is to build a viking with the starport to snipe overlords and pressure the zerg with this type of "strategy" too. I'm very interested in your opinion and ideas as well. best regards,
I just rewatched NaDa v Coca and NaDa did it a bit different from what I wrote actually. He goes 4rax before double gas where I go rax gas rax gas. I think my way times out just fine though as when your 3rd rax finishes, you have just enough gas for a tech lab and then stim when your tech lab finishes.
I've heard of Bomber's way, haven't tried it yet but I'll give test that way out as well.
Also, about getting additional reactors, I don't see why he would do that as I don't see how it would affect his timings and macro. Maybe he has a gas surplus or is powering? IDK, I'll have to re-look at it.
I think a medivac first is better than viking. A medivac with marines can pick off stray overlords almost as well as a viking. You also have the potential to drop in the Z main (which you should do first). If, with that drop, I see Z isn't getting mutas, I add a viking after that to pick off stray ovies. If you go viking first, your chances of doing drop damage with a medivac after a viking is greatly reduced. Thus, get the best of both worlds, make a medivac first.
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Canada333 Posts
On July 12 2011 08:14 AGsc wrote:
Nice OP, you really have spent a lot of time preparing this MU. Not sure why the 2 fac tank push v Ost is in there though.. the win doesn't really have anything to do with the build. How would your strat have changed w.o close pos?
The win has everything to do with the strat. I specifically say that the strat is best in close positions and it's almost a guaranteed way to win in those conditions (though, any push close positions is really strong and effective, 2fact tank I believe is best.).
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So, I don't see ultras mentioned all that much in this guide. I went into the late game with a zerg, and he went ling/ultra, and rolled over my marine/tank army like it was nothing. I got out thors and ghosts and hellions, but he just rolled over it again. I was proactive with my drops (denying his fourth, getting my 5th up), I had gotten the gold (he didn't), and somehow, I still lost.
Btw, I'm a gold terran.
So what's one to do against ultra/ling?
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Thank you for posting this. This is a veritable gold mine. I've been reading and re-reading to synthesize everything.
A couple quick questions:
- Do you have a way of making the reaper-first builds 6-pool safe? Or is this (as it seems to me) a straight build order loss?
- If going reaper first on Scrap Station, do you recommend Jinro's ultra-forward Rax&Factory wall-off? I'm not confident about how safe the timings are here, especially during the Rax-Lift.
- Would you ever drop your expo directly at your natural on a slightly bigger map (say, on Terminus or Tal'Darim)?
Thanks for the guide. Please do expound on the mid-game section when you have a chance. I'm really looking forward to it.
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