EPT[G] Doc's Somewhat Definitive Guide to TvZ - Page 10
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yaRus
Russian Federation68 Posts
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Tonem
Australia91 Posts
 Will check out your stream as your understanding of the game seems solid :D. And I would LOVE to see this same kind of guide/tips for TvP when you figure that shit out (by far my worst match-up as well t.t) | ||
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JiSu
Korea (South)140 Posts
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The.Doctor
Canada333 Posts
On July 20 2011 21:00 yaRus wrote: The.Doctor, can you post more replays with transitions - iam interested in BF transition when zerg go for roaches - how to use hellions in this case. Also i am interested in more mass muta play replays + more macro games with comments like - how we can end game with zerg if we survived to macro? Ok. On July 20 2011 21:04 yaRus wrote: Also, hope to see more information about choosing transition according to our scouting and early game preasure results. I mean, when it will be better to use BF transition instead of Korean, or StimTank push instead of Drop Play. I wrote out when a certain build is good and when it's bad in the guide... On July 20 2011 22:31 Tonem wrote: Great guide Doc, love the content and effort put into this and I'll definitely benefit from your tips Will check out your stream as your understanding of the game seems solid :D. And I would LOVE to see this same kind of guide/tips for TvP when you figure that shit out (by far my worst match-up as well t.t) My TvP is quite good now, more so focusing on TvT now but I will see what I can do about a TvP guide. Maybe get someone to help me as the TvZ guide took a LONG time. On July 20 2011 22:32 JiSu wrote: TheDoc, I see you added a section for when to make ghosts but seriously.. I always have trouble playing TvZ late game because of mass infestors (13+ around 16-17 minutes). 13+ infestors can pretty much hold on to any push imo... What do you do against that? I know you make ghosts and emp but usually I see that ghosts can't even walk toward the infestors to emp because of the lings. If they go infestor first, you should have the economic advantage 100% of the time. Delay their 3rd, then drop everywhere while teching to ghosts. Make sure you focus fire with tanks. Use cloak with ghosts if you need to and see an opportunity (no overseers). EMP has more range than fungal. It becomes micro wars again, ghost v templar style. Unfortunately, our spells don't actually kill them in both TvP and TvZ so we kinda have the disadvantage in that regard but make up for it with range. Scan whenever you think a big battle is going to go on to give yourself better vision. Focus fire with tanks and emp with ghosts. Work on microing that scenario. Get a practice partner, go to unit test map duo or just do practice games. | ||
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Keos
Canada2 Posts
And I have a question for the hotkeys : do you have all the production buildings on one hotkey? Thanks!! | ||
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madstarcraft
United States103 Posts
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The.Doctor
Canada333 Posts
On July 22 2011 09:32 Keos wrote: Hi The.Doctor, I read all your guide and it seems like it will improve my TvZ a lot more since I am extremely horrible at it and I just started to switch race to Terran. Nice guide! ^.^ And I have a question for the hotkeys : do you have all the production buildings on one hotkey? Thanks!! I personally do and I find it easier. | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
BTW, there's also a op bunker rush location in xelnaga. | ||
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The.Doctor
Canada333 Posts
On July 22 2011 12:14 T.O.P. wrote: Wow, this is such a good guide. I think I understand more about terran's mentality after reading this. BTW, there's also a op bunker rush location in xelnaga. Yeah I'm gonna add that spot too. | ||
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The.Doctor
Canada333 Posts
http://www.justin.tv/thedoctor91/b/290733138 VOD of me bunker rushing LiquidRet http://www.justin.tv/thedoctor91/b/290733594 | ||
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
It really is one of the best guides out there for Terran in any matchup that can be found in english. Would you want to comment on a style I was seeing today? The zerg goes for infestor ling, which is pretty well laid out in your guide as go for a fast 3rd and delay your 2nd factory. I am finding the most trouble when doing the nada style 4 rax before factory on a map like metal in cross spots. He can very easily guard 3 bases with ling/infestor from drops. In about 6 games I did 15-20+ drops and I would say that maybe 3 or 4 of them actually did any damage at all. Is there some pattern to my aggression (positioning and movement?) that I should focus on or is there a good timing to hit with a push after opening with that build (before hive)? I feel like once the infestors are actually in play my options become a bit more limited and if has very good drop defense What really gets me is that he opens with a late gas which, depending on how my opening goes, leads me into the nada style or the 2 base push style. By the time I know he is going infestor ling I have issues if I didn't do the push style (hard containing with a push is much stronger I feel but I don't want to have blindly do a stim/siege push vs every late gas build on cross spots metal... or do I?). I just feel a bit more lost vs this style than I do other styles. | ||
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antz0r
Australia168 Posts
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
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Senorcuidado
United States700 Posts
On July 25 2011 14:32 vaderseven wrote: This guide is not getting enough credit. It really is one of the best guides out there for Terran in any matchup that can be found in english. Would you want to comment on a style I was seeing today? The zerg goes for infestor ling, which is pretty well laid out in your guide as go for a fast 3rd and delay your 2nd factory. I am finding the most trouble when doing the nada style 4 rax before factory on a map like metal in cross spots. He can very easily guard 3 bases with ling/infestor from drops. In about 6 games I did 15-20+ drops and I would say that maybe 3 or 4 of them actually did any damage at all. Is there some pattern to my aggression (positioning and movement?) that I should focus on or is there a good timing to hit with a push after opening with that build (before hive)? I feel like once the infestors are actually in play my options become a bit more limited and if has very good drop defense What really gets me is that he opens with a late gas which, depending on how my opening goes, leads me into the nada style or the 2 base push style. By the time I know he is going infestor ling I have issues if I didn't do the push style (hard containing with a push is much stronger I feel but I don't want to have blindly do a stim/siege push vs every late gas build on cross spots metal... or do I?). I just feel a bit more lost vs this style than I do other styles. if you post a replay I'd be happy to take a look, and I'm sure Doctor would too. I absolutely love cross positions against Zerg lately which is weird because I used to call it auto-loss, but all the drops and hellion harrassing are a blast. Personally I tend to avoid tanks in these positions but you can definitely use drops to pull his army back so you can establish a siege contain. Drops are finnicky. There is a gigantic difference between good drops and bad drops. Maybe you weren't clearing ovies, which he really can't stop you from doing if he went infestors and thus should have no warning when you hit him. Maybe you weren't using multi-pronged drops to force him to multi-task or maybe he was just much better at multi-tasking. Maybe you weren't targeting the right things during the drops, or you stayed too long and sacrificed everything when you should have picked up and ran. Sometimes it's better to snipe tech, kill drones, or just distract long enough for another drop or frontal assault to do the real damage. Either way, if he's constantly defending drops he's not challenging your expos (hopefully). Maybe you unloaded one at a time in his mineral line, which usually isn't the most efficient way to go. Maybe you clumped up in a ball so one fungal wrecked you. I'm just guessing, there are so many ways to improve drop play it's hard to be perfect. That's why a replay would be most useful . Man I love drops. | ||
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HighQuality
United States56 Posts
I've started learning standard TvZ myself after an extended period of MKP style marine rushing (which has been getting crushed in the past month). One question though: After a bit of harass with a couple of hellions, I typically push out at the 10 minute mark with tanks and marines to deny a third expo. If the Zerg is going infestor though, the 3rd is delayed and my army kind of sits outside of his base waiting to die. If zerg is going infestor should I not move out at all and take a 3rd base, or just do what I've been doing and take a 3rd while simultaneously moving out? My problem could be more of a scouting issue though, since I usually don't figure out which tech route the zerg is going until I'm already sieged by his third. | ||
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KDot2
United States1213 Posts
I am so bad at TvZ I probably win about 15-20% and win about 60-70% of my TvT and TvP in gold is this normal ? playing verse Zerg has been brutal for me | ||
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doomscythe
61 Posts
Marines + medis on one hotkey, tanks on another. No exceptions. I have this old habit of setting medivac on following my Bios (without hotkey) instead of setting them on the same hotkey (i do have tanks on another tho), do you think it is a mistake and should be changed? | ||
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The.Doctor
Canada333 Posts
On July 25 2011 14:32 vaderseven wrote: This guide is not getting enough credit. It really is one of the best guides out there for Terran in any matchup that can be found in english. Would you want to comment on a style I was seeing today? The zerg goes for infestor ling, which is pretty well laid out in your guide as go for a fast 3rd and delay your 2nd factory. I am finding the most trouble when doing the nada style 4 rax before factory on a map like metal in cross spots. He can very easily guard 3 bases with ling/infestor from drops. In about 6 games I did 15-20+ drops and I would say that maybe 3 or 4 of them actually did any damage at all. Is there some pattern to my aggression (positioning and movement?) that I should focus on or is there a good timing to hit with a push after opening with that build (before hive)? I feel like once the infestors are actually in play my options become a bit more limited and if has very good drop defense What really gets me is that he opens with a late gas which, depending on how my opening goes, leads me into the nada style or the 2 base push style. By the time I know he is going infestor ling I have issues if I didn't do the push style (hard containing with a push is much stronger I feel but I don't want to have blindly do a stim/siege push vs every late gas build on cross spots metal... or do I?). I just feel a bit more lost vs this style than I do other styles. Post the replay! I have a hard time dealing with infestors sometimes myself. A lot of time it has to do with me letting Z get their econ up. If you're doing any bio heavy play like the nada style, make SURE you delay the Z's 3rd base until infestors pop. Then start heavy drop play while building your tank count and taking your fast 3rd. Your 3rd should be faster than z's though. Metal cross positions is really tough in general though and now, it's gone. The nada style would lead in to a longer game but if you like doing tank contains and pushes then by all means, do what works for you. I'm still experimenting with other things as I find the infestor style really volatile, weird and played way differently by different players. Some choose to use burrowed infestors, some defensively, some all around the map dropping infested terrans. On July 26 2011 14:08 HighQuality wrote: Great guide; it's taught me a lot already. I've started learning standard TvZ myself after an extended period of MKP style marine rushing (which has been getting crushed in the past month). One question though: After a bit of harass with a couple of hellions, I typically push out at the 10 minute mark with tanks and marines to deny a third expo. If the Zerg is going infestor though, the 3rd is delayed and my army kind of sits outside of his base waiting to die. If zerg is going infestor should I not move out at all and take a 3rd base, or just do what I've been doing and take a 3rd while simultaneously moving out? My problem could be more of a scouting issue though, since I usually don't figure out which tech route the zerg is going until I'm already sieged by his third. When you do your push, check for Z's 3rd. If it's there, take it out, which you should be able to if he's going infestors as they won't be out by then. Fall back and take yours. If Z doesn't have 3rd, don't just sit around their front with your army, they will build up a huge army the longer you wait. Fall back. On July 27 2011 03:29 ShooTouts wrote: great guide lord knows I need it I am so bad at TvZ I probably win about 15-20% and win about 60-70% of my TvT and TvP in gold is this normal ? playing verse Zerg has been brutal for me Everyone has their shitty matchup. Mine used to be TvP, now it's good and my TvT is starting to suffer. On July 27 2011 09:55 doomscythe wrote: I hope this has not been asked I have this old habit of setting medivac on following my Bios (without hotkey) instead of setting them on the same hotkey (i do have tanks on another tho), do you think it is a mistake and should be changed? Bad, if the unit that your medivac is following dies, the medivacs stop following and just sit around. | ||
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The.Doctor
Canada333 Posts
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imjorman
United States580 Posts
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