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Russian Federation68 Posts
On August 02 2011 19:17 The.Doctor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 17:02 yaRus wrote:
TheDoctor, what do you think about 1-1-1 opener in TvZ? Is it viable in this matchup? Can we somehow be not far away from zerg's economy? It's definitely good in certain situations and depending on the units you make. I just find this is a LOT easier way to play against Z as you're not relying on your few units (helions, banshees) to get a lot of kills early on and even the playing field.
And can you provide your thougts about this build in general? How we can open and be equal on zergs economy? What kind of preasure we can/should apply depending on our scouting?
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great guide man, very useful. can you do one for TvP also? :D
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im wondering whats your view about marauders
i like to put marauders into play
getting them from about 1 or 2 rax
i used the to tank blings
so i just need to pull my marine a bit and let marauders be the tank
is it effective or just a waste of money ?
cool guide anyway
can u give more in depth guide like this with other match up ?
plat player stumbling here
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On August 03 2011 13:31 Vertical wrote:
im wondering whats your view about marauders
i like to put marauders into play
getting them from about 1 or 2 rax
i used the to tank blings
so i just need to pull my marine a bit and let marauders be the tank
is it effective or just a waste of money ?
The problem with marine/marauder is it doesn't give you a good composition going into the late game because it is hard countered by infestors.
At least with marine tank you are setting yourself up for the late game to counter pretty much everything until hive tech.
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On August 03 2011 16:45 tubs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 13:31 Vertical wrote:
im wondering whats your view about marauders
i like to put marauders into play
getting them from about 1 or 2 rax
i used the to tank blings
so i just need to pull my marine a bit and let marauders be the tank
is it effective or just a waste of money ?
The problem with marine/marauder is it doesn't give you a good composition going into the late game because it is hard countered by infestors. At least with marine tank you are setting yourself up for the late game to counter pretty much everything until hive tech.
Why it wouldnt ?
I still have tanks even with my marauders
But they do take gas
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On August 03 2011 16:45 tubs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 13:31 Vertical wrote:
im wondering whats your view about marauders
i like to put marauders into play
getting them from about 1 or 2 rax
i used the to tank blings
so i just need to pull my marine a bit and let marauders be the tank
is it effective or just a waste of money ?
The problem with marine/marauder is it doesn't give you a good composition going into the late game because it is hard countered by infestors. At least with marine tank you are setting yourself up for the late game to counter pretty much everything until hive tech.
I watched doc crush a top korean zerg (#226) this morning on his stream with marine tank against hive tech (brood lord corrupter infestor ultralisk queen). He was pretty behind until the zerg switched to hive tech and he stomped it with marine/tank and a handful of vikings.
Maybe it's on his vods, if not maybe can get him to post the replay. It was a pretty insane game on tal'darim.
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Funny that MVP and Slayers's Terrans raped Zerg without any of your builds. It is arrogant to say you have a definitive guide. Even if its just a somewhat definitive guide.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 03 2011 21:53 Tommie wrote:
Funny that MVP and Slayers's Terrans raped Zerg without any of your builds. It is arrogant to say you have a definitive guide. Even if its just a somewhat definitive guide.
Doc is hardly arrogant. In fact it was really generous of him to sacrifice the great amount of time it took to contribute this guide to the TL community. It's funny how you were selfish enough to read it because I'm sure you were at least curious to see if you could learn anything from it, yet you post such a worthless condescending remark instead of a grateful one.
BTW Doc, great guide and great stream! Keep up the good work dude!
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On August 03 2011 21:53 Tommie wrote:
Funny that MVP and Slayers's Terrans raped Zerg without any of your builds. It is arrogant to say you have a definitive guide. Even if its just a somewhat definitive guide.
Someone wins using their own build and playstyle ----> Doc doesn't know shit.
BTW MVP did nogas FE in to BF helion, MMA did reaper in to BF helion on shak v DRG but made it in to his own 'slayers style' play...what I remembered off top of head, both covered.
Alright so I want to include the slayers build because it's really strong but there's a problem. I think it's far too advanced for your average player...I have troubling pulling it off as well because it takes a LOT of APM because the exact time you need to be laying down your buildings, starting upgrades and swapping addons is when your helions and marines are in the Z base. I'm going to play around with it a bit more and see what I can do with it.
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On August 03 2011 21:22 Vertical wrote:
Why it wouldnt ?
I still have tanks even with my marauders
But they do take gas
Well that's a different composition. In your original question you were asking about a marine/marauder composition and I was pointing out the weakness. Marine/marauder/tank is a whole different story. The problem with throwing in marauders is unless you are going for a specific early marine/marauder stim timing, using gas on marauders will just slow down your siege tank timing. It also means you will have less marines and will be more easily contained in your base if the zerg decides to go the muta harrass route or an aggressive infestor soft contain. That will delay your third base and cause you to waste more money on turrets.
Basically in the later stages of the game marines do way more dps than marauders and tanks will take care of anything armored (roaches, spines, etc) so that's why "standard play" skips marauders.
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On August 03 2011 21:43 michaelhasanalias wrote:
I watched doc crush a top korean zerg (#226) this morning on his stream with marine tank against hive tech (brood lord corrupter infestor ultralisk queen). He was pretty behind until the zerg switched to hive tech and he stomped it with marine/tank and a handful of vikings.
Yeap again we're talking about different compositions. I was saying marine/tank gets you pretty much through mid game until late game hive tech. At hive tech you will need to add in vikings, ghosts, etc to take care of broodlords/infestors.
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VERY awesome guide, going to see if we can get it into the Recommended Threads!
Ty for making this man, really helped me understand the matchup =)
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On July 31 2011 11:42 cskalias.pbe wrote:
Definitely the best TvZ guide on TL. Much thanks!
I'm a little surprised you relegate the gas first reactor hellions for more one-off situations. I've found that it is:
-extremely safe, even for fast roaches after FE (not sure if it still works on one base... but i can't remember the last time someone has done that to me), for which you definitely have time for at least one bunker and at least 1 marauder.
-map control
-larva/drone harass (not many seem to expect the larva harass if the zerg is relying purely on queen ramp blocking for the earliest stages of defense
Is there a particular opening you feel this is very weak to? Or are zergs at your level just especially competent at defending relative to the rax openers you've mentioned?
You don't really emphasize upgrades that much in this guide, but that could be because upgrading hard is just understood. That said, I find that vZ I'm double upgrading earlier and with higher priority relative to vP and vT.
I've always found that if Z plays defensively and shuts down your helion pressure, you will get wrecked by fast mutas and have to play defensively for a very long time. I did talk about upgrades. They're absolutely essential to keep going constantly but the timing of when you want to start your +1 varies depending on the build you do.
On August 02 2011 19:36 yaRus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 19:17 The.Doctor wrote:On August 02 2011 17:02 yaRus wrote:
TheDoctor, what do you think about 1-1-1 opener in TvZ? Is it viable in this matchup? Can we somehow be not far away from zerg's economy? It's definitely good in certain situations and depending on the units you make. I just find this is a LOT easier way to play against Z as you're not relying on your few units (helions, banshees) to get a lot of kills early on and even the playing field. And can you provide your thougts about this build in general? How we can open and be equal on zergs economy? What kind of preasure we can/should apply depending on our scouting?
I very very seldomly do any 1-1-1 play because like I said, if you don't do crippling damage to Z, you will be pretty far behind economically and pinned back once he gets mutas. I generally recommend against it. You don't need to play super safe 1-1-1 against Z because they don't have any way of killing you even if you go nogas FE. Z is the one who wants to play safe, not T in this match up. I feel that the only other choice to do damage with 1-1-1 outside of some silly all-in is to go for cloak banshee but most Z can hold it off quite well now. Also, I believe any helion in to cloak banshee play is an advanced build more reserved for players with high APM and good decision making as you're relying on a few units to get you ahead economically and keep constant map control with. In short, I'd recommend against it unless you want to change up your style in a tournament in say a bo5+ vs a Z or vs a friend.
On August 03 2011 13:31 Vertical wrote:
im wondering whats your view about marauders
i like to put marauders into play
getting them from about 1 or 2 rax
i used the to tank blings
so i just need to pull my marine a bit and let marauders be the tank
is it effective or just a waste of money ?
cool guide anyway
can u give more in depth guide like this with other match up ?
plat player stumbling here
Tanks tank better than marauders. Save gas for higher tank count and build more marines.
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That MMA stuff is very fun. Thats a very precise build wow.
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There is a bunker rush on Backwater gultch that is pretty good. You can make a bunker and a depot next to each other and wall off next to their ramp.
Ok i have another map specific trick for you. The triple bunker rush on Shakuras Plateau, You wall off the zerg from attacking your marines scv`s, and when the bunkers finish you are in range of the hatch.
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Hi doc,
can you do a yabot build order test file to train your builds? 
this would help extremly
thx
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ty ty ty ty ty, finly a tvz guide that isn't damn mech 
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I played another game v royalflush last night where he went ling roach in to mass infestor ling and then eventually ultras with high upgrades. I thought I played alright against it so, I'm going to up my VOD of the game and a replay. Was kinda sloppy this game though, haven't played much lately.
http://drop.sc/28149 for the replay
http://www.twitch.tv/thedoctor91/b/292960575 VOD
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I dunno , as a Masters Random/zerg player I find that your builds seem kinda bad , vs any allin-ish play , If i for example did the fake speedling expand on Tal'Darim Alter , im not sure how you would stop it ? Maybe add a thread / spoiler for "How to stop speedling flood all-in"? 
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EPT
