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Hello TL community!
This is my first post on the forums so i hope i'm doing this right (been a lurker for a while).
I am a high diamond terran and been recently facing master players on the ladder. I've been using a 1 rax FE into 2 ghost timing push in TvP and it has been working really well until recently.
I've ran into a build that i don't know how to stop nor if it's possible to defend it with a one rax FE (even if i know the build is coming in advance). The build is one base 4 gate + robo all in.
So my question is, is 1 rax FE not viable in TvP? Am i doing something wrong in the way i'm reacting to this build? how map dependant can this be?
I know that my macro and micro isn't perfect.
Here are some replays showing the issue:
4gate + robo game 1
In the first replay i see the fast robo going down and i even get to deny his
first two pylons close to my base but after missing the third pylon it is
already too late as all the units get warped into my base
4gate+robo game2
In the second replay i just auto lose to the same build again this time having my expo in my natural, not much to say rly.
Thanks for any answers, thoughts or suggestions in advance! 
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If you expand and tech a t the same time you can't defend 1 base attack. 1 rax FE is viable you just need to scout...
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1 rax fe is certainly viable.
I'm thinking that you're not using your scout correctly - are you checking the protoss expo with your initial scv scout around 6-6:30? If there is no expo going up by that time, you're gonna need some bunkers to hold. If you're investing in additional tech at this time before his push you're pretty much dead unless your opponent fails.
The general "look" that you're going to want is mostly marines, some marauders, and minimum 3 bunkers. If you can scout the push coming, you should have your scvs waiting to block zealots/fight/repair.
GL~
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I do the same 1 rax fe build and i havent seen anything that can hard counter it directly. Yes a 4gate is tough to hold and probably requires extra bunkers. Always get atleast one bunker with this build. Add a second if you suspect an all in
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On July 03 2011 07:19 Shotgun2 wrote:
I know that my macro and micro isn't perfect.
well that being said it's really hard to tell, if 1 rax expand is able to defend it. so just work on it 
but in general Terrans tend to expand without gas and add 2-3 rax after the CC and pump out pure marines and later marauders. it's more economic than 1 rax marauder FE and gets a ton of units.
If you want to put pressure on your opponent, you should go 2 rax (reactor first, techlab second). It gets the CC later, but has more units and can kill greedy protoss players right away or defend things like void ray builds easier than 1 rax marauder FE.
for this reason 1 rax marauder has fallen out of style recently.
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The one piece of reliable information you can get out of a P past gases/chronoboost early (which only reveals 1gate expand or 4gate) is his expo. You can check at 5m with SCV, 6m with 2rax attack, or 7m with scan.
Gasless 1rax CC is a great build that will put you ahead of a expanding P, on a larger map with easily defendable choke. You lose pressure against 1gateFE, and scouting options. On smaller maps with wide naturals (metal/XC), you can be contained by 3gate sentry, and be forced to wait until medivacs to float down.
Temple should be easy enough to hold. You will need 3-4 bunkers after you spot the thing coming, and probably additional rax to be safe.
2 Ghost timing is better geared to punish sentry reliant P that also expanded. Ghost timing is around 7m for academy, you will know by then whether or not to invest in ghosts, or more rax.
Metalopolis is an open natural that is much harder to defend with bunkers. If the P is playing 1 base, and you did 1rax no gas CC, you will most likely need to turtle on high ground, and float the CC down.
I don't personally like gasless 1raxCC on Metal, I think 2 rax is more robust. Let's you hold allins better, and the distances are short enough to punish early P expansions.
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Thanks for the tips guys but i just don't see how the amount of bunkers that i have will help in any way if the P decides to use warp prism play and elevator/warp in all his units into my main.. (as shown in replay number 1)
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one thing I try to do, is good scouting in general, and keep a scv at the ramp to see when they move out, it helps me a ton
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Sometimes "some bunkers" means a TON of bunkers. There should be a rule of thumb made that goes along the lines of something like "for every moment terran has a base more than protoss, they add x bunker". It makes sense, really, salvage does make a big difference in return and as long as you hold...
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General truth, you can't tech + expand vs a player who's strictly powering units. You'll get overrun if you're similar skill level.
Scout -> tone down the teching and add a shitload of bunkers if he hasn't expanded.
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Hi Shotgun2,
TvP is my best matchup and I do a version of 1 rax FE every game.
If you're doing a very fast expansion build then you need to have a super clean and practised build order, as well as the ability to keep calm to hold off an all-in. For example in game 1 you allow the protoss player to kill a tech lab and 8 workers before you react/engage at all.
From the 7:10 minute mark when he warps into your base all 3 barracks of yours are idle until just past the 8 minute mark. One of them is constructing a reactor which is of absolutely no use at that time. I think you need to clear up those issues before you can decide whether 1 rax fe is workable for you or not. Even small things like an scv needlessly chasing the probe in your base is super important when you're doing a fragile build.
I recommend watching the replay of NaDa doing the exact same build, which you can find in this thread. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=239760
Obviously he's not getting all in'd there, but at the 6:30 mark he has 11 supply more than you. I don't mean to say, "just macro like NaDa and you'll be fine bro". But maybe you can see how the best in the business go about the build and maybe steal some of his ideas to help your own play.
Hopefully I didn't just tell you everything you knew already, good luck!
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Quoting myself from another thread:
On July 02 2011 22:28 dryice135 wrote:
I have not watched the replays but here is some food for thought regarding early expansion builds.
You need to understand something fundamental about early expo builds:
When you sink 550 minerals into something that does not improve the strength of your army for a few minutes you are vulnerable. If your opponent wants to, he can build up an army which is stronger than yours. So then how is it that early expo builds are the standard? Shouldn't a decent player able to just make a bigger army than yours and kill you? Its very simple, your opponent has a larger army so if he attacks you need to defend in A COST EFFECTIVE WAY such that the size differences in the armies are nullified.
So how do you make your army stronger without increasing it's size? Here is how:
-having a good unit composition (scout!)
-terrain imbalances (high-ground)
-micro
-bunker(s)
-pull scv's to repair/fight
-quicker reinforcements (defenders advantage) *may not apply if they have a forward pylon/proxied structures*
With early expos you live and die by the bunker and the mule. If you are getting all-ined, first you need to have scouted something which trips your star-sense so that you bunker up. Second of all, do not hesitate to pull scv's to repair and fight. Remember, Terrans live and die by the mule. Even if you loose scv's holding off the attack you can reproduce scvs quickly and drop double mules to catch up very quickly.
Remember how I said you live and die by the bunker and the mule, well scanning means you have lost a mule and as a result you have lost an important round of units if push comes to shove (the scan costs you over 250 minerals). Once you get more experienced your star-sense will allow you to pin your opponent on what possible builds he is doing based on certain things such as his unit count,unit composition,intention to expand, gas timing etc etc etc. I am not saying never scan, just understand how much you are paying for the information. Also, against better opponents your scan will almost always be a waste of minerals and can actually be dangerous if your scan misleads you.
If your opponent has done a good job in denying your scouting (good tos players will be active with their first stalker), In understanding the cost of a scan you are better off just blindly bunkering up and salvaging the bunkers when you figure that you are safe.
But at the end of the day it all comes down to whoever has better mechanics and game understanding. Spend more time training your mechanics and multi-tasking rather than trying to iron out negligible bumps in your builds. Your ability to multi-task, macro, micro, manage a crisis, think strategically and recognise tactical opportunities are all infinitely more important than how smooth your build is.
I do a marauder expand every game against protos. It is Thorzain's version of the M-expand, only make a few marauders until you can rule out a stargate attack. I can hold 4-gates with 1 bunker on a map with a ramp, 2 bunkers on a map with a wide open natural like tal derim altar. I held a 4 gate this morning with 1 bunker on metalopolis even with the protos warping in onto my high-ground. Do not be afraid to use your scvs. Remember, the protos has cut his probes at 22 AND he is not teching. Meanwhile during the 4 gate you are teching to stim and medivacs AND you have an expansion. Even if you have to sacrifice 10 scvs to hold, you will still come out on top with the better tech, expansion ready to go and double mules etc.
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On July 03 2011 08:36 Agnosthar wrote:Hi Shotgun2, TvP is my best matchup and I do a version of 1 rax FE every game. If you're doing a very fast expansion build then you need to have a super clean and practised build order, as well as the ability to keep calm to hold off an all-in. For example in game 1 you allow the protoss player to kill a tech lab and 8 workers before you react/engage at all. From the 7:10 minute mark when he warps into your base all 3 barracks of yours are idle until just past the 8 minute mark. One of them is constructing a reactor which is of absolutely no use at that time. I think you need to clear up those issues before you can decide whether 1 rax fe is workable for you or not. Even small things like an scv needlessly chasing the probe in your base is super important when you're doing a fragile build. I recommend watching the replay of NaDa doing the exact same build, which you can find in this thread. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=239760Obviously he's not getting all in'd there, but at the 6:30 mark he has 11 supply more than you. I don't mean to say, "just macro like NaDa and you'll be fine bro". But maybe you can see how the best in the business go about the build and maybe steal some of his ideas to help your own play. Hopefully I didn't just tell you everything you knew already, good luck!
Thanks a lot for the great advice's, i usually screw up my macro if i'm up against heavy early pressure.
I actually saw MKP do the ghost expand build and try'd to copy it, seems like Nada uses the same build 
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It depends on the map. Some maps, with their super-wide naturals, are pretty much impossible because you need like 4-5+ bunkers to cover all angles and have overlapping fire - (which is BS imho since protoss just needs to cut your army in half with forcefields when FEing rather than being so reliant on natural terrain, but that is off-topic) - On maps like shakuras, temple and taldarim its definately safe though.
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1 rax FE requires some practise...a 2 rax expand (SeleCT style) is certainly quite a bit more intuitive and though the expand is slightly slower...your tech isnt which I think is a very good compromise.
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How do you guys hold off 3gate stargate pressure on Shakurus where Protoss builds pylons all around you and warps into your base using VR for vision? Same thing happens on metal (not just referring to what Nani did today, happens to me on ladder).
EDIT: just to clarify unless it's close pos metal/shattered temple (where I 2rax reactor first then tech lab), I one-rax maruder (2gas until expo goes down, get concussive as soon as I can) expand every game versus protoss and then add 4 more plain barracks without addon and try to pressure when I can (combat shield done or stim done timings).
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EPT
