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I wonder if my go-to TvT build can stop this push and get the advantage.
+ Show Spoiler +1 reaper > stim > cc > 2 more rax > constant marine production > fac > 4th rax > 2x ebay or 5th rax (depends) > starport
Basically the ultra-fast stim will give me the advantage on the field, because any tech-heavy push will sacrifice lots of gas, it ensures the opponent doesn't have stim when I move out midfield to receive the push.
My tanks come up really late, but I'll have the marine advantage and probably the upgrade one too.
I've died to tank pushes before, but its because I engaged at very bad positions.
Wish I could 1v1 you right now to test it out, because I kinda got the stim for that exact purpose of cutting down the first tank push/contain.
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I am platinum on NA server (silver on SEA server), so even worse than OP.
I have been doing this build TvT for the last month or so and had good results. My take is similar, but slightly different. My tweeks are:
1. I dont get a reactor on the rax because it leaves a very long time when you are not producing marines. Once the expo is up I add another rax and starport and then put the reactor/techlab on the barracks. As pointed out by others, this build is most vulnerable in the early stages so I felt too flimsy with the early reactor.
2. If I scout no gas, or 2 rax, I put a bunker at the choke. I was able to hold off a 5 rax pure marine push with this build on Tal'Darim, thanks to the tank.
3. I go for an engineering bay after expansion to get up 1 turret in the mineral line, to defend from banhees.
It is weak against 3+ reaper rushes as you are focusing on defending the front and may lose a number of scv's to the reapers. Once seige is done you'll be OK, but the reapers have hit me before seige is done.
I was thinking of making a post but had a look on TLliquipedia and there is an entry for seige expand, which is pretty much this build (without the rax-factory swap).
P.S. yay - first post
Edit: I dont push most of the time, but use it as an ultra safe FE build. I actually settled upon it when the metagame shifted to FEs. I felt a 1 rax no gas FE was too weak against a terran that pushes with tanks and that this was a good solution.
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Some builds to worry about:
The 5 marine 1 hellion timing. When you have 3 marines out, shouldn't that push beat you? Obviously you'll get a tank fairly soon, but on closer spawns your opponent would be able to get into your base at the very least.
The other thing, which is coincidentally a followup to the push aforementioned, is banshees. Using the rax to make 2 addons so early will cut into marine production time drastically, and this build does not have an ebay in it.
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On July 04 2011 11:56 Cityfern wrote:
I am platinum on NA server, so not as good as OP.
I have been doing this build TvT for the last month or so and had good results. My take is similar, but slightly different. My tweeks are:
1. I dont get a reactor on the rax because it leaves a very long time when you are not producing marines. Once the expo is up I add another rax and starport and then put the reactor/techlab on the barracks. As pointed out by others, this build is most vulnerable in the early stages so I felt too flimsy with the early reactor.
2. If I scout no gas, or 2 rax, I put a bunker at the choke. I was able to hold off a 5 rax pure marine push with this build on Tal'Darim, thanks to the tank.
3. I go for an engineering bay after expansion to get up 1 turret in the mineral line, to defend from banhees.
It is weak against 3+ reaper rushes as you are focusing on defending the front and may lose a number of scv's to the reapers. Once seige is done you'll be OK, but the reapers have hit me before seige is done.
I was thinking of making a post but had a look on TLliquipedia and there is an entry for seige expand, which is pretty much this build (without the rax-factory swap).
P.S. yay - first post
Yay new (registered) member! Welcome! Good first post, with one correction (I don't think Platinum is "bad or worse" by any means (:
1. Reactor takes 50 seconds to produce, a Marine takes 25 seconds to produce (game time). So by the time you get the reactor up, you can have 3 marines instead of 1. However, your first production cycle will bring you up to 3 marines, while a rax without reactor will give you 4 marines.
You'll have evened out the marine count by the second production cycle with the reactor
(1 > 3 > 5 as compared to 1 > 2 (no reactor building) > 3 (no reactor building) > 4 > 5).
2. Keep your scv scout alive, try to scout the command center going down if there is no second rax. A bunker will automatically put you (further) behind if he goes gasless expand against your later expand. Bunker for 2 rax of course (sometimes the second rax is proxied, so its better to keep your scv alive to scout the CC)
3. Pretty good for early upgrades, if you're going bio heavy with tank support.
4. Now, the 3 reaper rush is a touch-and-go thing to defend. I suggest pulling 2-3 scvs and group up with your marines (should have 3-4 marines depending on whether you got the reactor), then chasing them down. Make sure your defensive force walks the shorter path; reapers move faster than marines. If he overextends and goes behind your mineral line, surround him with scvs.
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Thanks Saritenite, i was not seeking to offend the OP (or myself) but provided the regular caveat that my opinion is not that of a super-gosu player.
Thanks for your input re the timings, however, given that the reactor is being made after the first (or second) tank, or seige, the production cycles may not have time to catch up before 3 rax all-in or 3 reaper rush hits. Also, the 50 gas for the reactor may delay the second tank and/or seige, which could compound the weakness.
Is losing 100 minerals temporarily (more like 25 minerals given the salvage) for the bunker putting you that far behind?
I always try and have an scv hidden at the expo to see the expansion timing. This is not entirely effective if they keep it in base for a long time.
Thanks for the tip for dealing with the reapers, they usually get more scv kills than they should.
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The 3 reaper rush, like any other build, has tells. Learn what you're looking for and plan a deviation.
Adjusting is one of the most important things you can do in a strategy. Sure, you might not hit your timing if something weird happens, but you'll be ahead in some other sort of way.
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These pushes are just chance-based, meaning that you die to a counter drop. You simply cannot do these kind of pushes if you want to be a solid player. I see a lot of terran in tvt doing risky stuff, not realizing that they are in fact "chance" players, as they typically expand as well and hence feel like they play a macro-oriented style.
IMO work on a long-term solid style (aka always have a plan to deal with everything the opponent can throw at you), instead of this "chance-play".
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Just wondering: how does the push work considering he walled up with bunker and has 2 siege tanks near ramp? I saw something similar with this build, but the player built a proxy rax near the opponent's base to give view...
Cheers.
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On July 04 2011 19:34 Leargle wrote:
The 3 reaper rush, like any other build, has tells. Learn what you're looking for and plan a deviation.
Adjusting is one of the most important things you can do in a strategy. Sure, you might not hit your timing if something weird happens, but you'll be ahead in some other sort of way.
I'm sure we all know this, but the problem is: if you scout your opponent doing a reaper build (or if they execute it poorly enough, reveal 2 rax with tech labs and an early gas), then what IS the proper response? By then, most would have the factory going up. A bunker cannot be placed properly to defend this and although one could say that you can place marines at the cliffs, 3 reapers can easily take out 3 marines or even 4-5 marines depending on positioning and how well you managed the cliffs. The 3 reaper opening counters the 1-1-1 style pretty hard and this is a variation of it, so what is the proper response?
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On July 04 2011 15:11 Cityfern wrote:
Is losing 100 minerals temporarily (more like 25 minerals given the salvage) for the bunker putting you that far behind?
Not if you salvage before the you put down the cc. If it gets squeezy around 27 (which is when the 2nd cc goes down) you can supply call down.
On July 04 2011 20:37 bylex wrote:
Just wondering: how does the push work considering he walled up with bunker and has 2 siege tanks near ramp? I saw something similar with this build, but the player built a proxy rax near the opponent's base to give view...
Cheers.
You want to get him to lift the natural (I'm assuming your saying he has his natural, if not just contain for a bit and go home) so using your two scans you want to try to take care of his tanks and do damage.
On July 04 2011 19:55 Hider wrote:
These pushes are just chance-based, meaning that you die to a counter drop. You simply cannot do these kind of pushes if you want to be a solid player. I see a lot of terran in tvt doing risky stuff, not realizing that they are in fact "chance" players, as they typically expand as well and hence feel like they play a macro-oriented style.
IMO work on a long-term solid style (aka always have a plan to deal with everything the opponent can throw at you), instead of this "chance-play".
This is not a chance play, I don't die to anything and I have a tank seiged at home for a counter drop. I can certainly do these sorts of pushes and be a solid player, forgg did these sorts of pushes every game for years at the highest level and was a solid player. I don't see how having a proactive strategy makes it not "solid". I have a build, I am working on having a response to everything -.-
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This was my autowin build on steppes of war( gooooooooood i LOVED steppes for TvT ).
I'd rather do the 2 tank 1 viking 7 marines push tho.
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This build is an auto-loss vs blue hellion drop?
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On July 05 2011 07:04 Ineffability~ wrote:
I'd rather do the 2 tank 1 viking 7 marines push tho.
How exactly does this one work?
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On July 02 2011 06:07 TheSurgeonTV wrote:
susceptible to cloaked banshee?
I did a similar build to this one mentioned by OP (looks good btw, will try it  ) back in season 1 on Kulas Ravine (ugh..) cross position.
I managed to peg my opponent just before his banshee out, so he didn't have much to handle the tank + marine push.
So maybe if you're further away & suspect a banshee.. speed up the push a bit?
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How do u modify this build to ward off a cloaked banshee attack? Esp considering most banshee rushers will hide port from being scanned.
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On July 05 2011 14:47 Evantas wrote:
How do u modify this build to ward off a cloaked banshee attack? Esp considering most banshee rushers will hide port from being scanned.
Instead of putting down a CC when you have the minerals, invest in an eBay and turrets. You will need to scout them!
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No offense, but this build literally loses to almost anything. Your push is too late to do anything at all. I have a rax factory expand build that I may end up writing about if I'm bored enough, but this is really not optimal at all. You expand soooo late considering you are not stopping him from going FE in any way (at least a competent player will never die to that push with any build).
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On July 05 2011 14:51 Pokebunny wrote:
No offense, but this build literally loses to almost anything. Your push is too late to do anything at all. I have a rax factory expand build that I may end up writing about if I'm bored enough, but this is really not optimal at all. You expand soooo late considering you are not stopping him from going FE in any way (at least a competent player will never die to that push with any build).
Get bored please. ^^ This site needs more good TVT guides.
And I will try this build. Terran is my weakest race and TVT is my weakest matchup, so we'll see how it goes.
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I think this would just straight up lose to anybody who makes a banshee and has somewhat decent micro. Without stim or combat shield the marines are pretty terrible vs anybody with good banshee control. I don't see how you'll really be able to do much damage except delay your opponent's expansion for a bit...just because all he has to do is make a banshee and have 1-2 more in production, stall your 10 marines and 3 tanks on route to his base with the banshee, by the time you get to his base you will probably have about 3 marines left and the 2nd banshee can clean that up and your tanks are now useless and he takes an expansion and can start harassing you with the banshee b/c your expo is up so early but in reality you need turrets everywhere because you are trying to defend and early expo so you need to put up like 4 turrets and least and even THEN he will probably just get ahead of you in eco b/c he made 2-3 banshees and got a bunch of kills off your main initial push and you have to invest even more into turrets and shit so all your scvs don't die....
I'm not even talking 1 starport cloak, you would straight up not be able to push at all because you don't have a starport and you will run out of scans going to his base.
I'd like to play vs it to test it, but I don't think it sounds very good just b/c the timing is simply at an awkward time as well as your tech is a bit too slow.
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On July 05 2011 09:25 Shiv. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 07:04 Ineffability~ wrote:
I'd rather do the 2 tank 1 viking 7 marines push tho. How exactly does this one work?
http://imageshack.us/f/43/screenshot2011070512411.jpg/
This is how it looks like, if someone is interested PM me.
It basically OWNS the build from OP, cus i'll have same amount of tanks, more marines, a viking and a reactored starport by the time he has a normal one. Yes my expand is somewhat later, but the idea of my build is to contain, so you wont be able to get yours up as well
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EPT
