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There are two builds I have questions about with regards to this, mainly because both RyanRushia and I queued into Artosis some time ago and he did this exact build.
Note that he did this on Shakuras.
I went for a 4 gate into warp prism elevator with double pylon under his main. He saw the pylons but was unable to hold as I used the prism to give units vision while elevatoring with warpin from the pylons.
RyanRushia immediately expanded upon seeing the cannons and went blink - but his blink army vastly outnumbered Artosis' army, and he had an observer to spot for the blink stalkers. I think RyanRushia may have even had a better economy than Artosis since he went mass probe probe probe upon seeing the expand with cannons, and had enough units at all times to hold any push.
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On June 17 2011 01:53 7sk wrote:
Very tight timing with this build. How do you recover if he has a third or fourth collosi?
You really can't you have to push before the colossus are out
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Can you please upload some replays of this beating 1 base colossus? It seems pretty iffy. I watched the replays and you have a pretty small force when you push out. Seems like 2 colo and a bunch of zealots could beat this...
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This build stinks imo, going for a cannon to defend in PvP is horrible because cannons are rarely effective. There are so many things that can go wrong that cannoning yourself in your base while teching is just suicide, shakuras might be the only exception here as you can at least secure an expansion there.
For example defending blink stalkers with cannons requires at least 2 to 3 cannons, if they move up, blink past your cannons and then warp in new units from a pylon at the lowground you simply lose with pure zealot. Warp prism + elevator same thing.
Then chargelot + archon is in no way actually strong to get that early. It's very expensive to get and probably even a bit worse then a colo army. Zealot + blink stalker can actually do fine against it as well by simply focussing the archons.
I like to do a part of this strat sometimes though, for example when I open robo and they do something fishy, then going into chargelots + archons can be a nice way to get aggresive back at them. The benefit of the combo here is that it's quicker and less vulnerable then a colo army so it is better in the base trading war which inevitably happens against with blink against robo play (if they tried to contain you).
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On June 17 2011 02:19 Arcanne wrote:
imo its fine to transition into archons if you've already committed to the tech but its usually not something worth going for directly. Its too easy to wall off this composition with buildings, which any sensible player would do.
I definitely agree with Arcanne here. This is more of a transition than a build you should rush to. Say if blink fails or you set up a contain with it, then its ok to get charge and drop templar archives because starting colossus tech would most likely put you behind. With decent building placement at your main or natural (Depending if this is a 1 base or 2 base situation) the zealots will have to funnel in one by one (assuming good sim city) and will take maximum splash damage from the colossus who are free to sit behind the wall and fire. With the 9 range of the colossus there is no way the 3 range of the archon or the melee attack of the zealot will be able to reach them in time before damage is dealt. I do like the zealot archon composition and I feel that it has great potential when engaging in an open field, however, i feel like rushing up a ramp into 2 colossus and X amount of stalkers and zealots at the top is suicide. This composition needs to engage in an open field, not funnel into a choke let alone do it on purpose...
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My question is in your build order you say to drop the gas when the scout is gone... Well in the last 5 pvp I have played my opponents have stolen my gas. What is your response to gas being stolen??
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ive been doing my own variant of this build for a while now, and i can assure to all the doubters that this build does indeed smash 1 base collosus (as long as the numbers are below 4, and positioning is good).
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On June 17 2011 05:04 da_head wrote:
ive been doing my own variant of this build for a while now, and i can assure to all the doubters that this build does indeed smash 1 base collosus (as long as the numbers are below 4, and positioning is good).
really how does this ever smash 1 base colossus...
The colossus player simply ff's the ramp forcing the archon to go up first. The archon is then so fat that it blocks the entire ramp and the zealots stand there doing nothing. If the game goes longer colo get that critical mass where they can just start to 1 shoot zealots.
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FYI only way I know to counter this if you have commited to 1 base robo (which is how I start games unless they are a 4 gate only maps), is by making a wall off at ramp. A couple collosus behind gateways with a handfull of zealots at choke preventing surround really put the hurt on this build.
Once defending the first push I usually try to expand and go for archon/collosus and zealots with whatever leftover minerals I have leftover.
So, if you scout this coming across the map (which really you should especially if you went robo) put buildings at the choke and force this build's lack of ranged units to work against it.
This is a extremely strong build nonetheless, if the zealots get a surround when you are doing a normal gateway mix or robo build (before 3rd collosus is important as OP mentioned), its an easy win.
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Why did Artosis stop streaming anyway? Was it all the flame he was getting in justin.tv?
Sad to hear, because I for one loved his streaming. 
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On June 17 2011 01:55 sAfuRos wrote:
Fast expanding protoss punishes this hard, as does a hard tech to colossi.
Name one.
As for counters, wouldn't walling off be extremely effective if the defenders composition is stalker/colossi?
If you scout mass zealots (probably in reaction to your zealot numbers) by your opponent, is charge still worth it? all it does is charge your zealots into his zealots... giving his ranged units (assuming 2 colossi) more hits than your archons. theory crafting here, no need to flame me, i will admit i have never played against this build.
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On June 17 2011 07:09 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 01:55 sAfuRos wrote:
Fast expanding protoss punishes this hard, as does a hard tech to colossi. Name one. As for counters, wouldn't walling off be extremely effective if the defenders composition is stalker/colossi? If you scout mass zealots (probably in reaction to your zealot numbers) by your opponent, is charge still worth it? all it does is charge your zealots into his zealots... giving his ranged units (assuming 2 colossi) more hits than your archons. theory crafting here, no need to flame me, i will admit i have never played against this build.
You miss the whole point of the build. You micro zealots by forcing them to run at ranged units. If you right click your whole army on the collosus for instance they will charge past the zealots and wrap around the stalkers/collosus/etc.
This is not an a-move build. Micro is required, although I would say its minimal compared to alot of protoss tactics. Consider the zealots to be similar to zerglings, but instead of just doing a run by you charge by, by right clicking a unit in the back of the enemy deathball.
But yes walling off is effective, as my post reads above yours. When I scout mass zealots/archon I immediately wall my ramp and make a narrow choke so the zealots cannot get a surround.
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I doubt Artosis started this build because i remember it becoming extremily popular on the EU servers in the first half an hour of the warpgate nerf (in pvp that is).
However, i liked the writeup, i see you claim it works vs 4gate... interesting.
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On June 17 2011 07:40 SC2TheDroid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 07:09 tuestresfat wrote:On June 17 2011 01:55 sAfuRos wrote:
Fast expanding protoss punishes this hard, as does a hard tech to colossi. Name one. As for counters, wouldn't walling off be extremely effective if the defenders composition is stalker/colossi? If you scout mass zealots (probably in reaction to your zealot numbers) by your opponent, is charge still worth it? all it does is charge your zealots into his zealots... giving his ranged units (assuming 2 colossi) more hits than your archons. theory crafting here, no need to flame me, i will admit i have never played against this build. You miss the whole point of the build. You micro zealots by forcing them to run at ranged units. If you right click your whole army on the collosus for instance they will charge past the zealots and wrap around the stalkers/collosus/etc. This is not an a-move build. Micro is required, although I would say its minimal compared to alot of protoss tactics. Consider the zealots to be similar to zerglings, but instead of just doing a run by you charge by, by right clicking a unit in the back of the enemy deathball. But yes walling off is effective, as my post reads above yours. When I scout mass zealots/archon I immediately wall my ramp and make a narrow choke so the zealots cannot get a surround.
So what you're saying is if I forcefield around my colossi, I win?
sorry, didn't see the part where you mentioned walling off already. just missed it.
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I watched the reps. I'm not convinced at all that this build works.
First of all, I don't think cannon can hold off a 4 gate. The guy in the first rep was over half a minute late with his 4 gate, and then poorly placed his proxy pylon so he wasn't able to warp in those 4 additional zealots. You would have easily lost to a standard 4 gate, your cannon doesn't even finish until well past the 6 minute mark.
Second, straight tech to chargelot/archon doesn't work IMO. You can die to so many things before you get charge, such as blink stalkers, or even a regular attack that has a few sentries for forcefield. If the guy in the 2nd replay had attacked you when he got his blink stalkers, you would have died. He also had horrible micro, and should have fended off your attack. If the defender walls in with buildings like others in this thread have stated, you wouldn't have any chance at all.
Chargelot/archon is definitely a viable mid game PvP composition, but I think you need to transition into it from either blink or DT, and I really think you need 2 bases to do it well since you should be taking advantage of its mobility (1 base colossus > 1 base chargelot/archon).
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On June 17 2011 02:20 EtherealDeath wrote:
There are two builds I have questions about with regards to this, mainly because both RyanRushia and I queued into Artosis some time ago and he did this exact build.
Note that he did this on Shakuras.
I went for a 4 gate into warp prism elevator with double pylon under his main. He saw the pylons but was unable to hold as I used the prism to give units vision while elevatoring with warpin from the pylons.
RyanRushia immediately expanded upon seeing the cannons and went blink - but his blink army vastly outnumbered Artosis' army, and he had an observer to spot for the blink stalkers. I think RyanRushia may have even had a better economy than Artosis since he went mass probe probe probe upon seeing the expand with cannons, and had enough units at all times to hold any push.
There are a handful of maps that this build is weaker on, Shakuras being on of them since a toss can expo and use building to wall up his expo very easily. Similar would be maps without a ramp or a big ramp like Scrap station where this build can't hold a 4gate.
With RyanRushia I would like to see the game if at all possible Im wondering what he saw that let him know he was going to be safe to just make probes and expo. I try to make the build look at exactly like an aggressive 4gate w/ 1 gas until the opponent scouts the cannon, at which time he knows its going to be something different. I would love for people to try it out on ladder and let me know what happens. Every build has build that counter it or work good against it, its about being creative in PvP and not letting them know till its too late.
The warp prism you mentioned seems fairly strong on most maps against this. I've only had 1 person use warp prism against this build and they won, albeit i had no vision of my base.
On June 17 2011 08:50 Anihc wrote:
I watched the reps. I'm not convinced at all that this build works.
First of all, I don't think cannon can hold off a 4 gate. The guy in the first rep was over half a minute late with his 4 gate, and then poorly placed his proxy pylon so he wasn't able to warp in those 4 additional zealots. You would have easily lost to a standard 4 gate, your cannon doesn't even finish until well past the 6 minute mark.
Second, straight tech to chargelot/archon doesn't work IMO. You can die to so many things before you get charge, such as blink stalkers, or even a regular attack that has a few sentries for forcefield. If the guy in the 2nd replay had attacked you when he got his blink stalkers, you would have died. He also had horrible micro, and should have fended off your attack. If the defender walls in with buildings like others in this thread have stated, you wouldn't have any chance at all.
Chargelot/archon is definitely a viable mid game PvP composition, but I think you need to transition into it from either blink or DT, and I really think you need 2 bases to do it well since you should be taking advantage of its mobility (1 base colossus > 1 base chargelot/archon).
I didn't mention it in the OP but when people are going for a very agressive 4gate I usually throw down an extra cannon, if they really want to push up your ramp the extra cannon only need to get 2 kills to be worth it. While I understand Static Defense is not always the best idea, its about making the build work.
You also mentioned walling in which yes it works great against this build but If i transition into an expo and they don't attack there behind. This build is like playing zerg if you engage head on into a spot your going to lose its going to happen you want to fight out in the open to get surrounds if your own a map like crossfire there is no way this build would have a chance past 1base.
I would like if anyone who had replays of this build succeeding to send them to me and I might add them to the op. Since this is a discussion about trying to makes this build as viable as possible that's all Artosis was trying to do and that's what Im trying to do, make this build work against all these common PvP builds.
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On June 17 2011 12:34 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 08:50 Anihc wrote:
I watched the reps. I'm not convinced at all that this build works.
First of all, I don't think cannon can hold off a 4 gate. The guy in the first rep was over half a minute late with his 4 gate, and then poorly placed his proxy pylon so he wasn't able to warp in those 4 additional zealots. You would have easily lost to a standard 4 gate, your cannon doesn't even finish until well past the 6 minute mark.
Second, straight tech to chargelot/archon doesn't work IMO. You can die to so many things before you get charge, such as blink stalkers, or even a regular attack that has a few sentries for forcefield. If the guy in the 2nd replay had attacked you when he got his blink stalkers, you would have died. He also had horrible micro, and should have fended off your attack. If the defender walls in with buildings like others in this thread have stated, you wouldn't have any chance at all.
Chargelot/archon is definitely a viable mid game PvP composition, but I think you need to transition into it from either blink or DT, and I really think you need 2 bases to do it well since you should be taking advantage of its mobility (1 base colossus > 1 base chargelot/archon). I didn't mention it in the OP but when people are going for a very agressive 4gate I usually throw down an extra cannon, if they really want to push up your ramp the extra cannon only need to get 2 kills to be worth it. While I understand Static Defense is not always the best idea, its about making the build work. You also mentioned walling in which yes it works great against this build but If i transition into an expo and they don't attack there behind. This build is like playing zerg if you engage head on into a spot your going to lose its going to happen you want to fight out in the open to get surrounds if your own a map like crossfire there is no way this build would have a chance past 1base. I would like if anyone who had replays of this build succeeding to send them to me and I might add them to the op. Since this is a discussion about trying to makes this build as viable as possible that's all Artosis was trying to do and that's what Im trying to do, make this build work against all these common PvP builds.
Then way to not mention critical pieces of your strategy in your guide... (defending 4 gate and what to do if your opponent plays defensively)
And even if you get 2 cannons, I'm still going to break you with a 4 gate. The problem with cannons is that they can't be instantly warped in like warpgate units can. You invest 150 minerals in a cannon but don't get any return on it until half a minute later, whereas with warpgate units you get the return on investment within 5 seconds. Feel free to test your cannon defense against my 4 gate anytime... coLrsvp.138 on both NA and EU.
Note that I'm not discrediting chargelot/archon, I'm just criticizing your build because going straight to chargelot/archon is not a safe way to get there. If you want to make this build as viable as possible, again like I said before I suggest transitioning into it from a DT or blink stalker opening.
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On June 17 2011 06:26 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 05:04 da_head wrote:
ive been doing my own variant of this build for a while now, and i can assure to all the doubters that this build does indeed smash 1 base collosus (as long as the numbers are below 4, and positioning is good). really how does this ever smash 1 base colossus... The colossus player simply ff's the ramp forcing the archon to go up first. The archon is then so fat that it blocks the entire ramp and the zealots stand there doing nothing. If the game goes longer colo get that critical mass where they can just start to 1 shoot zealots.
In vod's of Artosis stream i've seen him roll over collosus play in late game with pure zealot/archon, and critical mass of colossus didn't help (Korean masters). If you mass zealots you need to learn to flank.
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On June 17 2011 06:26 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 05:04 da_head wrote:
ive been doing my own variant of this build for a while now, and i can assure to all the doubters that this build does indeed smash 1 base collosus (as long as the numbers are below 4, and positioning is good). really how does this ever smash 1 base colossus... The colossus player simply ff's the ramp forcing the archon to go up first. The archon is then so fat that it blocks the entire ramp and the zealots stand there doing nothing. If the game goes longer colo get that critical mass where they can just start to 1 shoot zealots.
A replay to reinforce this point? I know I've seen this work against collosus in the both the NASL and GSL. This sounds like blind theory crafting to me.
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On June 17 2011 16:18 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 12:34 jcroisdale wrote:On June 17 2011 08:50 Anihc wrote:
I watched the reps. I'm not convinced at all that this build works.
First of all, I don't think cannon can hold off a 4 gate. The guy in the first rep was over half a minute late with his 4 gate, and then poorly placed his proxy pylon so he wasn't able to warp in those 4 additional zealots. You would have easily lost to a standard 4 gate, your cannon doesn't even finish until well past the 6 minute mark.
Second, straight tech to chargelot/archon doesn't work IMO. You can die to so many things before you get charge, such as blink stalkers, or even a regular attack that has a few sentries for forcefield. If the guy in the 2nd replay had attacked you when he got his blink stalkers, you would have died. He also had horrible micro, and should have fended off your attack. If the defender walls in with buildings like others in this thread have stated, you wouldn't have any chance at all.
Chargelot/archon is definitely a viable mid game PvP composition, but I think you need to transition into it from either blink or DT, and I really think you need 2 bases to do it well since you should be taking advantage of its mobility (1 base colossus > 1 base chargelot/archon). I didn't mention it in the OP but when people are going for a very agressive 4gate I usually throw down an extra cannon, if they really want to push up your ramp the extra cannon only need to get 2 kills to be worth it. While I understand Static Defense is not always the best idea, its about making the build work. You also mentioned walling in which yes it works great against this build but If i transition into an expo and they don't attack there behind. This build is like playing zerg if you engage head on into a spot your going to lose its going to happen you want to fight out in the open to get surrounds if your own a map like crossfire there is no way this build would have a chance past 1base. I would like if anyone who had replays of this build succeeding to send them to me and I might add them to the op. Since this is a discussion about trying to makes this build as viable as possible that's all Artosis was trying to do and that's what Im trying to do, make this build work against all these common PvP builds. Then way to not mention critical pieces of your strategy in your guide... (defending 4 gate and what to do if your opponent plays defensively) And even if you get 2 cannons, I'm still going to break you with a 4 gate. The problem with cannons is that they can't be instantly warped in like warpgate units can. You invest 150 minerals in a cannon but don't get any return on it until half a minute later, whereas with warpgate units you get the return on investment within 5 seconds. Feel free to test your cannon defense against my 4 gate anytime... coLrsvp.138 on both NA and EU. Note that I'm not discrediting chargelot/archon, I'm just criticizing your build because going straight to chargelot/archon is not a safe way to get there. If you want to make this build as viable as possible, again like I said before I suggest transitioning into it from a DT or blink stalker opening.
Ya im editing the OP now with more on 4gate with another replay, against a very shitty 4gate but nonetheless a replay. Also I've only ran this build for the last month, and adopted this guide to get discussion on the build. I would love to run games against a 4gate only just to see what the timing should be and if it truly does destroy this build
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EPT
