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Well since Artosis has decided to stop streaming leaving me no more opportunities to see him preform this build in action, I've decided to make a guide use that as a foundation.
Units:
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1. Zealots w/ charge
2. Archons (from HTs)
Build:
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9 pylon
12 gateway
13 gas
15 pylon
16 cyber
17 zealot
20-22 Gas (once enemy scout is gone)
@ 100% cyber Warpgate Research and Stalker
24 sentry
26 Gateway Gateway Forge Pylon @ ramp
26 2 probes
@ 100% forge/ @ 100 % Warpgate 3 zealots and cannon at front
(After cannon it becomes less rigid)
Pylon
+1 attack
3 more zealots
Twilight council
Charge
Templar archives
pylon
4th gate
Archon rest zealots
Chrono Boost
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2 @ Nexus
3 Cyber
1 +1 Attack
Rest charge
Execution
+ Show Spoiler +The idea behind this build is too hold until charge and archon are finished. At that point you move out. This build is based around a very thin timing where an opponent can have at most 2 colossus out besides that it rolls a majority of other builds.
You want to use the Archons or two archons (depending on how much gas you have) to break any FF and push up there ramp.
If for some reason you don't have a proxy pylon close yet, but have your warpgates on cooldown just warp in 4 stalkers so they can catch up to your army.
Continue to warp in zealots and make sure you micro your army, charge zealots beat blink stalkers only if you micro properly. Most of the time your units will split up half focusing on buildings. Make sure those guys are attacking units or at least probes.
Reacting
4gate
+ Show Spoiler +INBASE PYLONS, thats the key to stopping a 4gate with this build make sure there are no pylons in your base. After that your going to want to use FF and constantly warping in zealots to choke up the ramp while your cannon owns everything up. If you feel your opponent is going to add a warp prism or is goiing to stop at nothing to get at your ramp add another pylon and cannon like you would against blink. You most likely have to hold off on the templar archives and the 4th gate while you spend all chrono on your gates.
If you can't warp in templars while being attacked you will notice a pile up of gas. At this point take 2-4 guys of gas and put them on minerals until the 4gate stop attacking. Make sure you still get charge. Once charge is done this is the point where you can combat the 4gate and should feel safe.
Blink
+ Show Spoiler +Blink means your going to need throw down an additional cannon and pylon place the cannon a little farther back and off towards your main nexus to ensure your safe from him trying to blink past. Put the pylon in range of both cannons. Your opponent will most likely go for a light contain with expo. Wait till charge and your first Archon are done. Then push down your ramp and to his base to roll him.
1 base colossus
+ Show Spoiler +Basically any type of 1,2,3gate robo into colossus, you will most likely have their obs enter into your base into range of the cannon try to stay aware and pick it off with the stalker. The most important thing when facing this build is timing. You need to be pushing up his ramp before he has his third colossus out. Once you make it up his ramp peel 3-4 zealots off for each colossus and have them target the colossus down.
Void Ray
+ Show Spoiler +After you attack only warp in stalker to reinforce, make sure you archon is targeting the voidray and isn't stuck behind zealot or buildings.
Phoenix
+ Show Spoiler +Just a joke throw down 2 cannons in your mineral line and continue with the zealots and archons.
Dark Templar
+ Show Spoiler +This is the best counter to the Artosis build. Once you know its DT go for cannons + expo tech to an obersver ASAP and attack right away. You should have a stronger army then him if you continued with zealot/archon.
Zealot/Archon
+ Show Spoiler +Whether its this same build or a similar one based around units you are going to be a similar situation to Colossus vs Colossus games. Try and let them come to you, make sure you add a robo for observers. If you manage to make it to 3 bases start teching to Voidrays. Artosis had mentioned that voidrays would be the right choice if both people went for the same build. In the games i tried it off 2base it didn't work they attack with more then enough archons to counter the low voidray number I had.
Replays
4Gate
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4gate w/ WP
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Blink Expo
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This is my first strategy post please let me know if anything is incorrect. Also let me know if crediting the build to Artosis without his consent is wrong.
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Zurich15328 Posts
Why did you post this before you have replays? PM me when you have them then I will reopen the thread.
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Replays added There not perfect i play most of my games exhausted and high. So sorry for non perfect play.
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Thank you for posting this. I saw him use the builds vs Grubby in the NASL, and wanted to try this out as an alternative to korean 3gating every game.
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Lol actually there are 2 same replays...
Edit: aaah fixed
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On June 16 2011 23:08 57 Corvette wrote:
Thank you for posting this. I saw him use the builds vs Grubby in the NASL, and wanted to try this out as an alternative to korean 3gating every game.
Ya im hoping this will give people an alternative to 4gate every game,
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that's real interesting, ill check it out
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This build is really good. I haven't done exactly this, but zealot archon is very nice. One question though, why not get DT shrine instead of Templar Archives? Cheaper Archons with DT shrine, isnt it?
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Thanks! A build by the man Artosis himself, and it involves... ARCHONS?
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This build is really good if a subpar player like Artosis who doesn't practice can beat a progamer with it.
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Italy12246 Posts
On June 17 2011 01:08 Xism wrote:
This build is really good. I haven't done exactly this, but zealot archon is very nice. One question though, why not get DT shrine instead of Templar Archives? Cheaper Archons with DT shrine, isnt it?
For the same cost, you can get 6 archons from dt's, or 10 zealots and 5 archons from ht's, or 5 archon's. Obviously the second is a better choice.
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Sweet. I've been playing alot of Random as of late and in PvPs i've been simply Cannon Rushing every game. Although I'm winning alot i'm pretty ashamed. Thanks for the guide.
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On June 17 2011 01:08 Xism wrote:
This build is really good. I haven't done exactly this, but zealot archon is very nice. One question though, why not get DT shrine instead of Templar Archives? Cheaper Archons with DT shrine, isnt it?
You are actually mineral light the whole time so you want to save minerals by going HT, also the Templar archive warp in faster which is key when facing 1base colossus.
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Very tight timing with this build. How do you recover if he has a third or fourth collosi?
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Fast expanding protoss punishes this hard, as does a hard tech to colossi.
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On June 17 2011 01:53 7sk wrote:
Very tight timing with this build. How do you recover if he has a third or fourth collosi?
Take your expo before him and try to engage out in the open. Somewhere he can't use highground to micro his colossus against zealots Im using this build 100% in PvP so I'll be uploading as many replays as I can to show each situation.
On June 17 2011 01:55 sAfuRos wrote:
Fast expanding protoss punishes this hard, as does a hard tech to colossi.
Thats why you do not let him see you taking your second gas. Your build looks exactly like a 4gate untill he scout your front and notices the cannon by this time, he will have already been down his tech path. And any PvP build is punished hard by another build.
Also hard teching to colossi isn't that big of a deal he wony have the ground army to stop you from targeting them down. The only real time colossus become a problem is when you take to long to get to there base and let them get a 4th one out.
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This is a nice build.
It looks like my style with heavy chargelots early on im starting to field with 1-2 cannons and fast upgrades. I find it good when I play PvP or PvZ.
I still think Huk's probe cut expand start is better in PvT though.
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Seems like a solid build.. I've been liking the chargelot archon mix. I'll give it a try!
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This unit composition is much better suited for a 2 base style. I think there are too many holes in this build, ie 3 gate blink would just go around the cannon and you would have too few zlots, no charge and no archons to defend... Just saying it doesn't sound like a very legit build and just because artosis used it doesn't make it very viable imo. I much prefer going 3 gate blink, containing, expanding, then getting charge, extra gates and ht tech for archons and if the timing is as you say, I would have no problems holding against this with superior economy and production. I dunno, PM me and we can test out the timings in game.
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imo its fine to transition into archons if you've already committed to the tech but its usually not something worth going for directly. Its too easy to wall off this composition with buildings, which any sensible player would do.
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There are two builds I have questions about with regards to this, mainly because both RyanRushia and I queued into Artosis some time ago and he did this exact build.
Note that he did this on Shakuras.
I went for a 4 gate into warp prism elevator with double pylon under his main. He saw the pylons but was unable to hold as I used the prism to give units vision while elevatoring with warpin from the pylons.
RyanRushia immediately expanded upon seeing the cannons and went blink - but his blink army vastly outnumbered Artosis' army, and he had an observer to spot for the blink stalkers. I think RyanRushia may have even had a better economy than Artosis since he went mass probe probe probe upon seeing the expand with cannons, and had enough units at all times to hold any push.
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On June 17 2011 01:53 7sk wrote:
Very tight timing with this build. How do you recover if he has a third or fourth collosi?
You really can't you have to push before the colossus are out
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Can you please upload some replays of this beating 1 base colossus? It seems pretty iffy. I watched the replays and you have a pretty small force when you push out. Seems like 2 colo and a bunch of zealots could beat this...
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This build stinks imo, going for a cannon to defend in PvP is horrible because cannons are rarely effective. There are so many things that can go wrong that cannoning yourself in your base while teching is just suicide, shakuras might be the only exception here as you can at least secure an expansion there.
For example defending blink stalkers with cannons requires at least 2 to 3 cannons, if they move up, blink past your cannons and then warp in new units from a pylon at the lowground you simply lose with pure zealot. Warp prism + elevator same thing.
Then chargelot + archon is in no way actually strong to get that early. It's very expensive to get and probably even a bit worse then a colo army. Zealot + blink stalker can actually do fine against it as well by simply focussing the archons.
I like to do a part of this strat sometimes though, for example when I open robo and they do something fishy, then going into chargelots + archons can be a nice way to get aggresive back at them. The benefit of the combo here is that it's quicker and less vulnerable then a colo army so it is better in the base trading war which inevitably happens against with blink against robo play (if they tried to contain you).
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On June 17 2011 02:19 Arcanne wrote:
imo its fine to transition into archons if you've already committed to the tech but its usually not something worth going for directly. Its too easy to wall off this composition with buildings, which any sensible player would do.
I definitely agree with Arcanne here. This is more of a transition than a build you should rush to. Say if blink fails or you set up a contain with it, then its ok to get charge and drop templar archives because starting colossus tech would most likely put you behind. With decent building placement at your main or natural (Depending if this is a 1 base or 2 base situation) the zealots will have to funnel in one by one (assuming good sim city) and will take maximum splash damage from the colossus who are free to sit behind the wall and fire. With the 9 range of the colossus there is no way the 3 range of the archon or the melee attack of the zealot will be able to reach them in time before damage is dealt. I do like the zealot archon composition and I feel that it has great potential when engaging in an open field, however, i feel like rushing up a ramp into 2 colossus and X amount of stalkers and zealots at the top is suicide. This composition needs to engage in an open field, not funnel into a choke let alone do it on purpose...
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My question is in your build order you say to drop the gas when the scout is gone... Well in the last 5 pvp I have played my opponents have stolen my gas. What is your response to gas being stolen??
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ive been doing my own variant of this build for a while now, and i can assure to all the doubters that this build does indeed smash 1 base collosus (as long as the numbers are below 4, and positioning is good).
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On June 17 2011 05:04 da_head wrote:
ive been doing my own variant of this build for a while now, and i can assure to all the doubters that this build does indeed smash 1 base collosus (as long as the numbers are below 4, and positioning is good).
really how does this ever smash 1 base colossus...
The colossus player simply ff's the ramp forcing the archon to go up first. The archon is then so fat that it blocks the entire ramp and the zealots stand there doing nothing. If the game goes longer colo get that critical mass where they can just start to 1 shoot zealots.
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FYI only way I know to counter this if you have commited to 1 base robo (which is how I start games unless they are a 4 gate only maps), is by making a wall off at ramp. A couple collosus behind gateways with a handfull of zealots at choke preventing surround really put the hurt on this build.
Once defending the first push I usually try to expand and go for archon/collosus and zealots with whatever leftover minerals I have leftover.
So, if you scout this coming across the map (which really you should especially if you went robo) put buildings at the choke and force this build's lack of ranged units to work against it.
This is a extremely strong build nonetheless, if the zealots get a surround when you are doing a normal gateway mix or robo build (before 3rd collosus is important as OP mentioned), its an easy win.
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Why did Artosis stop streaming anyway? Was it all the flame he was getting in justin.tv?
Sad to hear, because I for one loved his streaming. 
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On June 17 2011 01:55 sAfuRos wrote:
Fast expanding protoss punishes this hard, as does a hard tech to colossi.
Name one.
As for counters, wouldn't walling off be extremely effective if the defenders composition is stalker/colossi?
If you scout mass zealots (probably in reaction to your zealot numbers) by your opponent, is charge still worth it? all it does is charge your zealots into his zealots... giving his ranged units (assuming 2 colossi) more hits than your archons. theory crafting here, no need to flame me, i will admit i have never played against this build.
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On June 17 2011 07:09 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 01:55 sAfuRos wrote:
Fast expanding protoss punishes this hard, as does a hard tech to colossi. Name one. As for counters, wouldn't walling off be extremely effective if the defenders composition is stalker/colossi? If you scout mass zealots (probably in reaction to your zealot numbers) by your opponent, is charge still worth it? all it does is charge your zealots into his zealots... giving his ranged units (assuming 2 colossi) more hits than your archons. theory crafting here, no need to flame me, i will admit i have never played against this build.
You miss the whole point of the build. You micro zealots by forcing them to run at ranged units. If you right click your whole army on the collosus for instance they will charge past the zealots and wrap around the stalkers/collosus/etc.
This is not an a-move build. Micro is required, although I would say its minimal compared to alot of protoss tactics. Consider the zealots to be similar to zerglings, but instead of just doing a run by you charge by, by right clicking a unit in the back of the enemy deathball.
But yes walling off is effective, as my post reads above yours. When I scout mass zealots/archon I immediately wall my ramp and make a narrow choke so the zealots cannot get a surround.
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I doubt Artosis started this build because i remember it becoming extremily popular on the EU servers in the first half an hour of the warpgate nerf (in pvp that is).
However, i liked the writeup, i see you claim it works vs 4gate... interesting.
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On June 17 2011 07:40 SC2TheDroid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 07:09 tuestresfat wrote:On June 17 2011 01:55 sAfuRos wrote:
Fast expanding protoss punishes this hard, as does a hard tech to colossi. Name one. As for counters, wouldn't walling off be extremely effective if the defenders composition is stalker/colossi? If you scout mass zealots (probably in reaction to your zealot numbers) by your opponent, is charge still worth it? all it does is charge your zealots into his zealots... giving his ranged units (assuming 2 colossi) more hits than your archons. theory crafting here, no need to flame me, i will admit i have never played against this build. You miss the whole point of the build. You micro zealots by forcing them to run at ranged units. If you right click your whole army on the collosus for instance they will charge past the zealots and wrap around the stalkers/collosus/etc. This is not an a-move build. Micro is required, although I would say its minimal compared to alot of protoss tactics. Consider the zealots to be similar to zerglings, but instead of just doing a run by you charge by, by right clicking a unit in the back of the enemy deathball. But yes walling off is effective, as my post reads above yours. When I scout mass zealots/archon I immediately wall my ramp and make a narrow choke so the zealots cannot get a surround.
So what you're saying is if I forcefield around my colossi, I win?
sorry, didn't see the part where you mentioned walling off already. just missed it.
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I watched the reps. I'm not convinced at all that this build works.
First of all, I don't think cannon can hold off a 4 gate. The guy in the first rep was over half a minute late with his 4 gate, and then poorly placed his proxy pylon so he wasn't able to warp in those 4 additional zealots. You would have easily lost to a standard 4 gate, your cannon doesn't even finish until well past the 6 minute mark.
Second, straight tech to chargelot/archon doesn't work IMO. You can die to so many things before you get charge, such as blink stalkers, or even a regular attack that has a few sentries for forcefield. If the guy in the 2nd replay had attacked you when he got his blink stalkers, you would have died. He also had horrible micro, and should have fended off your attack. If the defender walls in with buildings like others in this thread have stated, you wouldn't have any chance at all.
Chargelot/archon is definitely a viable mid game PvP composition, but I think you need to transition into it from either blink or DT, and I really think you need 2 bases to do it well since you should be taking advantage of its mobility (1 base colossus > 1 base chargelot/archon).
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On June 17 2011 02:20 EtherealDeath wrote:
There are two builds I have questions about with regards to this, mainly because both RyanRushia and I queued into Artosis some time ago and he did this exact build.
Note that he did this on Shakuras.
I went for a 4 gate into warp prism elevator with double pylon under his main. He saw the pylons but was unable to hold as I used the prism to give units vision while elevatoring with warpin from the pylons.
RyanRushia immediately expanded upon seeing the cannons and went blink - but his blink army vastly outnumbered Artosis' army, and he had an observer to spot for the blink stalkers. I think RyanRushia may have even had a better economy than Artosis since he went mass probe probe probe upon seeing the expand with cannons, and had enough units at all times to hold any push.
There are a handful of maps that this build is weaker on, Shakuras being on of them since a toss can expo and use building to wall up his expo very easily. Similar would be maps without a ramp or a big ramp like Scrap station where this build can't hold a 4gate.
With RyanRushia I would like to see the game if at all possible Im wondering what he saw that let him know he was going to be safe to just make probes and expo. I try to make the build look at exactly like an aggressive 4gate w/ 1 gas until the opponent scouts the cannon, at which time he knows its going to be something different. I would love for people to try it out on ladder and let me know what happens. Every build has build that counter it or work good against it, its about being creative in PvP and not letting them know till its too late.
The warp prism you mentioned seems fairly strong on most maps against this. I've only had 1 person use warp prism against this build and they won, albeit i had no vision of my base.
On June 17 2011 08:50 Anihc wrote:
I watched the reps. I'm not convinced at all that this build works.
First of all, I don't think cannon can hold off a 4 gate. The guy in the first rep was over half a minute late with his 4 gate, and then poorly placed his proxy pylon so he wasn't able to warp in those 4 additional zealots. You would have easily lost to a standard 4 gate, your cannon doesn't even finish until well past the 6 minute mark.
Second, straight tech to chargelot/archon doesn't work IMO. You can die to so many things before you get charge, such as blink stalkers, or even a regular attack that has a few sentries for forcefield. If the guy in the 2nd replay had attacked you when he got his blink stalkers, you would have died. He also had horrible micro, and should have fended off your attack. If the defender walls in with buildings like others in this thread have stated, you wouldn't have any chance at all.
Chargelot/archon is definitely a viable mid game PvP composition, but I think you need to transition into it from either blink or DT, and I really think you need 2 bases to do it well since you should be taking advantage of its mobility (1 base colossus > 1 base chargelot/archon).
I didn't mention it in the OP but when people are going for a very agressive 4gate I usually throw down an extra cannon, if they really want to push up your ramp the extra cannon only need to get 2 kills to be worth it. While I understand Static Defense is not always the best idea, its about making the build work.
You also mentioned walling in which yes it works great against this build but If i transition into an expo and they don't attack there behind. This build is like playing zerg if you engage head on into a spot your going to lose its going to happen you want to fight out in the open to get surrounds if your own a map like crossfire there is no way this build would have a chance past 1base.
I would like if anyone who had replays of this build succeeding to send them to me and I might add them to the op. Since this is a discussion about trying to makes this build as viable as possible that's all Artosis was trying to do and that's what Im trying to do, make this build work against all these common PvP builds.
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On June 17 2011 12:34 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 08:50 Anihc wrote:
I watched the reps. I'm not convinced at all that this build works.
First of all, I don't think cannon can hold off a 4 gate. The guy in the first rep was over half a minute late with his 4 gate, and then poorly placed his proxy pylon so he wasn't able to warp in those 4 additional zealots. You would have easily lost to a standard 4 gate, your cannon doesn't even finish until well past the 6 minute mark.
Second, straight tech to chargelot/archon doesn't work IMO. You can die to so many things before you get charge, such as blink stalkers, or even a regular attack that has a few sentries for forcefield. If the guy in the 2nd replay had attacked you when he got his blink stalkers, you would have died. He also had horrible micro, and should have fended off your attack. If the defender walls in with buildings like others in this thread have stated, you wouldn't have any chance at all.
Chargelot/archon is definitely a viable mid game PvP composition, but I think you need to transition into it from either blink or DT, and I really think you need 2 bases to do it well since you should be taking advantage of its mobility (1 base colossus > 1 base chargelot/archon). I didn't mention it in the OP but when people are going for a very agressive 4gate I usually throw down an extra cannon, if they really want to push up your ramp the extra cannon only need to get 2 kills to be worth it. While I understand Static Defense is not always the best idea, its about making the build work. You also mentioned walling in which yes it works great against this build but If i transition into an expo and they don't attack there behind. This build is like playing zerg if you engage head on into a spot your going to lose its going to happen you want to fight out in the open to get surrounds if your own a map like crossfire there is no way this build would have a chance past 1base. I would like if anyone who had replays of this build succeeding to send them to me and I might add them to the op. Since this is a discussion about trying to makes this build as viable as possible that's all Artosis was trying to do and that's what Im trying to do, make this build work against all these common PvP builds.
Then way to not mention critical pieces of your strategy in your guide... (defending 4 gate and what to do if your opponent plays defensively)
And even if you get 2 cannons, I'm still going to break you with a 4 gate. The problem with cannons is that they can't be instantly warped in like warpgate units can. You invest 150 minerals in a cannon but don't get any return on it until half a minute later, whereas with warpgate units you get the return on investment within 5 seconds. Feel free to test your cannon defense against my 4 gate anytime... coLrsvp.138 on both NA and EU.
Note that I'm not discrediting chargelot/archon, I'm just criticizing your build because going straight to chargelot/archon is not a safe way to get there. If you want to make this build as viable as possible, again like I said before I suggest transitioning into it from a DT or blink stalker opening.
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On June 17 2011 06:26 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 05:04 da_head wrote:
ive been doing my own variant of this build for a while now, and i can assure to all the doubters that this build does indeed smash 1 base collosus (as long as the numbers are below 4, and positioning is good). really how does this ever smash 1 base colossus... The colossus player simply ff's the ramp forcing the archon to go up first. The archon is then so fat that it blocks the entire ramp and the zealots stand there doing nothing. If the game goes longer colo get that critical mass where they can just start to 1 shoot zealots.
In vod's of Artosis stream i've seen him roll over collosus play in late game with pure zealot/archon, and critical mass of colossus didn't help (Korean masters). If you mass zealots you need to learn to flank.
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On June 17 2011 06:26 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 05:04 da_head wrote:
ive been doing my own variant of this build for a while now, and i can assure to all the doubters that this build does indeed smash 1 base collosus (as long as the numbers are below 4, and positioning is good). really how does this ever smash 1 base colossus... The colossus player simply ff's the ramp forcing the archon to go up first. The archon is then so fat that it blocks the entire ramp and the zealots stand there doing nothing. If the game goes longer colo get that critical mass where they can just start to 1 shoot zealots.
A replay to reinforce this point? I know I've seen this work against collosus in the both the NASL and GSL. This sounds like blind theory crafting to me.
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On June 17 2011 16:18 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 12:34 jcroisdale wrote:On June 17 2011 08:50 Anihc wrote:
I watched the reps. I'm not convinced at all that this build works.
First of all, I don't think cannon can hold off a 4 gate. The guy in the first rep was over half a minute late with his 4 gate, and then poorly placed his proxy pylon so he wasn't able to warp in those 4 additional zealots. You would have easily lost to a standard 4 gate, your cannon doesn't even finish until well past the 6 minute mark.
Second, straight tech to chargelot/archon doesn't work IMO. You can die to so many things before you get charge, such as blink stalkers, or even a regular attack that has a few sentries for forcefield. If the guy in the 2nd replay had attacked you when he got his blink stalkers, you would have died. He also had horrible micro, and should have fended off your attack. If the defender walls in with buildings like others in this thread have stated, you wouldn't have any chance at all.
Chargelot/archon is definitely a viable mid game PvP composition, but I think you need to transition into it from either blink or DT, and I really think you need 2 bases to do it well since you should be taking advantage of its mobility (1 base colossus > 1 base chargelot/archon). I didn't mention it in the OP but when people are going for a very agressive 4gate I usually throw down an extra cannon, if they really want to push up your ramp the extra cannon only need to get 2 kills to be worth it. While I understand Static Defense is not always the best idea, its about making the build work. You also mentioned walling in which yes it works great against this build but If i transition into an expo and they don't attack there behind. This build is like playing zerg if you engage head on into a spot your going to lose its going to happen you want to fight out in the open to get surrounds if your own a map like crossfire there is no way this build would have a chance past 1base. I would like if anyone who had replays of this build succeeding to send them to me and I might add them to the op. Since this is a discussion about trying to makes this build as viable as possible that's all Artosis was trying to do and that's what Im trying to do, make this build work against all these common PvP builds. Then way to not mention critical pieces of your strategy in your guide... (defending 4 gate and what to do if your opponent plays defensively) And even if you get 2 cannons, I'm still going to break you with a 4 gate. The problem with cannons is that they can't be instantly warped in like warpgate units can. You invest 150 minerals in a cannon but don't get any return on it until half a minute later, whereas with warpgate units you get the return on investment within 5 seconds. Feel free to test your cannon defense against my 4 gate anytime... coLrsvp.138 on both NA and EU. Note that I'm not discrediting chargelot/archon, I'm just criticizing your build because going straight to chargelot/archon is not a safe way to get there. If you want to make this build as viable as possible, again like I said before I suggest transitioning into it from a DT or blink stalker opening.
Ya im editing the OP now with more on 4gate with another replay, against a very shitty 4gate but nonetheless a replay. Also I've only ran this build for the last month, and adopted this guide to get discussion on the build. I would love to run games against a 4gate only just to see what the timing should be and if it truly does destroy this build
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I think going dt into a fast expo transitioning to ht archons is pretty strong against this build. As long as you micro your dts you can really exploit their lack of observors to deny an expo. I've always ended up with a huge econ advantage afterwards.
Still...pretty good build I think. I'm only high diamond so higher level players may play this ht archon build better. Seems to leave you weak for too long though.
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Again, like rsvp says, its not a safe way to play chargelot/archon (which is, i believe, typically a transition after blink or dt).
The easiest solution is, as the opposing player, to simply turtle ahead with a better army. Chargelot archon works best in open areas, so turtling at home with colossus is an easy way to defend while gettng ahead economically by abusing cliffs with the colossus back and forth, as your timing push before the 4 colossus doesn't allow for blink stalkers to deal with colossus moving up and down cliffs.
I believe the flaw with this build is that it simply relies on the opponent poorly reacting to the cannons, but ultimately most skilled players will deal with this build quite fine barring poor positioning in engagement
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my first attempt!
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/6081
had problems w/ pvp recently and this was prob the most fun i ever had.
just gotta defend early aggression better and make a better use of my minerals. letting go so high.
i'm gonna roll this all day eerrr-day!
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On June 18 2011 05:09 xmikeyy17x wrote:my first attempt! http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/6081had problems w/ pvp recently and this was prob the most fun i ever had. just gotta defend early aggression better and make a better use of my minerals. letting go so high. i'm gonna roll this all day eerrr-day!
Not exactly following the build order but still get the idea. Just make sure not to block your ramp with buildings u want as much surface area as possible when attacking with zealots. Also when placing your cannon place it so it barely can hit the bottom/middle of the ramp so it cannot get sniped.
Also if anyone who can run the new 2-gate pressure build that cecil made a guide for wants to play some games I would be very happy because as of know im pretty sure this BO gets crushed by that. And you would need to transition into another build but i want to see if there is a way to hold it while deviating as little as possible.
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i have a diffrent version of this but DTs would def beat my build i go with 3 stalkers and put presser if i see robo i expo there really is nothing they can do
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Looks like a fun build, I wonder whether it will work against the other races, as Archons can be pretty neat against them
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stop calling it ARTOSIS build.
every protoss played or at least tried it after the patch -,-
just like the "spanishiwa style", everyone seems to use that term to every gasless Z build... so stupid.
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On June 19 2011 20:05 DiaBoLuS wrote:
stop calling it ARTOSIS build.
every protoss played or at least tried it after the patch -,-
just like the "spanishiwa style", everyone seems to use that term to every gasless Z build... so stupid.
What are you talking about, did you even read the op i explain while its called the artosis build he started refining it on his stream about a month ago, and based on what he was working on i used to formulate the build we have know. I mean the Losira build doesnt mean he is the only one allowed to use roaches and speedlings
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Oh yeah, the old 4gate 2 archon timing attack vs Zerg from Brood War.
Same problems though that was to counter the opponent going for fast Mutalisk. This is a pre-Colossus attack, and without darn good scouting you are in for a world of trouble. Probably just easier to go for a Sentry/Zealot timing attack, that'll come ALOT sooner and needs no tech infastructure other than normal.
And the craziest part... you can Hallucinate the Archons anyways and have the same effect.
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On June 20 2011 10:22 aaycumi wrote:
Oh yeah, the old 4gate 2 archon timing attack vs Zerg from Brood War.
Same problems though that was to counter the opponent going for fast Mutalisk. This is a pre-Colossus attack, and without darn good scouting you are in for a world of trouble. Probably just easier to go for a Sentry/Zealot timing attack, that'll come ALOT sooner and needs no tech infastructure other than normal.
And the craziest part... you can Hallucinate the Archons anyways and have the same effect.
The build needs the archons to take care of FF's if not z few zealots and FF can trap you whole army on a ramp.
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There are counters to every build. You need to look at the number of openings that a build is effective against to determine if it is a valid opener. 1 base robo might very well counter this build, but if it is effective against 3 other openers, then imo it is a very valid build. You would just need to work on preventing your opponent from identifying your build, which imo is as important as the build itself.
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This is very interesting! I will definitely try this out.
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On June 17 2011 01:10 setmeal wrote:
This build is really good if a subpar player like Artosis who doesn't practice can beat a progamer with it.
Grubby played horribly that day my friend. He would have lost to Deezer.
I'll check this build out for sure, I always 4gate in PvP but it's high time to change that!
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On June 21 2011 18:44 jcroisdale wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 10:22 aaycumi wrote:
Oh yeah, the old 4gate 2 archon timing attack vs Zerg from Brood War.
Same problems though that was to counter the opponent going for fast Mutalisk. This is a pre-Colossus attack, and without darn good scouting you are in for a world of trouble. Probably just easier to go for a Sentry/Zealot timing attack, that'll come ALOT sooner and needs no tech infastructure other than normal.
And the craziest part... you can Hallucinate the Archons anyways and have the same effect. The build needs the archons to take care of FF's if not z few zealots and FF can trap you whole army on a ramp.
I'm having trouble understanding your sentence, but I think his point is that hallucinated archons can take down force fields just as well.
Edit: never mind, archon hallucinations just go right through.
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This is the most fun build for PvP that ive tried so far. Actually its the first build which has made the matchup really enjoyable for me. One question though: Around what time ingame Templar archives should be finishing if opponent lets you tech in peace?
As a gold level player knowing this would help to see how much im late, specially since this build feels much harder to execute than any other PvP build ive used so far. At the moment im having trouble getting the upgrades to finish around the same time without forgetting the last gate or Templar archives starts too late.
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I've tried this a few times. A good opponent will scout and counter this pretty easily (with a 4 gate). The cost of the tech is just too much early on.
The only time I've been able to pull this off in PvP is versus a really, really late carrier/colossi composition (archons rape carriers).
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Think this should be a decent place to ask - what is a good composition against this chargelot/archon combination? I've played against some variants of this build, though its somewhat shaky early mid game, but once its setup it seems quite difficult to deal with. Thanks in advance!
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U be hacking!! The guy who 4gated u said it!!!
lol, jk. This build seems really cool, although I believe the placement of the first cannon may be very tricky vs a 4gate :/ seems like that alone can break your game
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I was just wondering, how would this fare against a 3 stalker timing push? The choke+cannon would defend it but the stalker timing push has the robo up so the colossus would be out sooner then the archons
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Do you have replay of Artosis doing it? It would be cool to see him perform his own build
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I've used this build for about two weeks and the counter has been figured out, have lost several games in the same fashion as of late. Just scout it, go colossus, and wall your ramp like your playing vs a zerg. Then the chargelots cannot get in since there are only room for one and its blocked by 6+ zealots and you cannot break it with 2+ colossus kicking your ass. So all the colossus player has to do is wall the ramp, hold the attack easilly, then sitt on his ass untill he has like 4 colossus, push out and 1a the chargelot player.
So back to 4 gates and colossus wars for me... blaaaaah this matchup is just atrocious.
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On June 17 2011 16:18 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 12:34 jcroisdale wrote:On June 17 2011 08:50 Anihc wrote:
I watched the reps. I'm not convinced at all that this build works.
First of all, I don't think cannon can hold off a 4 gate. The guy in the first rep was over half a minute late with his 4 gate, and then poorly placed his proxy pylon so he wasn't able to warp in those 4 additional zealots. You would have easily lost to a standard 4 gate, your cannon doesn't even finish until well past the 6 minute mark.
Second, straight tech to chargelot/archon doesn't work IMO. You can die to so many things before you get charge, such as blink stalkers, or even a regular attack that has a few sentries for forcefield. If the guy in the 2nd replay had attacked you when he got his blink stalkers, you would have died. He also had horrible micro, and should have fended off your attack. If the defender walls in with buildings like others in this thread have stated, you wouldn't have any chance at all.
Chargelot/archon is definitely a viable mid game PvP composition, but I think you need to transition into it from either blink or DT, and I really think you need 2 bases to do it well since you should be taking advantage of its mobility (1 base colossus > 1 base chargelot/archon). I didn't mention it in the OP but when people are going for a very agressive 4gate I usually throw down an extra cannon, if they really want to push up your ramp the extra cannon only need to get 2 kills to be worth it. While I understand Static Defense is not always the best idea, its about making the build work. You also mentioned walling in which yes it works great against this build but If i transition into an expo and they don't attack there behind. This build is like playing zerg if you engage head on into a spot your going to lose its going to happen you want to fight out in the open to get surrounds if your own a map like crossfire there is no way this build would have a chance past 1base. I would like if anyone who had replays of this build succeeding to send them to me and I might add them to the op. Since this is a discussion about trying to makes this build as viable as possible that's all Artosis was trying to do and that's what Im trying to do, make this build work against all these common PvP builds. Then way to not mention critical pieces of your strategy in your guide... (defending 4 gate and what to do if your opponent plays defensively) And even if you get 2 cannons, I'm still going to break you with a 4 gate. The problem with cannons is that they can't be instantly warped in like warpgate units can. You invest 150 minerals in a cannon but don't get any return on it until half a minute later, whereas with warpgate units you get the return on investment within 5 seconds. Feel free to test your cannon defense against my 4 gate anytime... coLrsvp.138 on both NA and EU. Note that I'm not discrediting chargelot/archon, I'm just criticizing your build because going straight to chargelot/archon is not a safe way to get there. If you want to make this build as viable as possible, again like I said before I suggest transitioning into it from a DT or blink stalker opening.
I just want to emphasize on this : this build get demolished by a good 4 gate. In the replays you showed, you START your cannon at the time they should have their units IN your base...
I'm only comenting on this because I played a guy yesterday who did this exact build I didn't know about. I was like : "wtf, chargelot/archon on one base with 1 cannon defense ? Doesn't that auto lose to 4 gate ?" and the guy laughed at me and said that it was solid. So I played another game and 4 gated him and just crushed him. I think you need to find some other way to beat 4 gate in the early stage of the games because 1 late cannon is not the way to go.
(geiko.813) for anyone who doesn't believe me and wants to be 4 gated.
Unfortunately, believe or not, I don't have the replay... For some reason, I discovered that your replays stop being saved once you reach (1000) on the same map. My last replay is Xel'Naga(999). This should be fixed by blizzard
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On July 07 2011 14:59 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 16:18 Anihc wrote:On June 17 2011 12:34 jcroisdale wrote:On June 17 2011 08:50 Anihc wrote:
I watched the reps. I'm not convinced at all that this build works.
First of all, I don't think cannon can hold off a 4 gate. The guy in the first rep was over half a minute late with his 4 gate, and then poorly placed his proxy pylon so he wasn't able to warp in those 4 additional zealots. You would have easily lost to a standard 4 gate, your cannon doesn't even finish until well past the 6 minute mark.
Second, straight tech to chargelot/archon doesn't work IMO. You can die to so many things before you get charge, such as blink stalkers, or even a regular attack that has a few sentries for forcefield. If the guy in the 2nd replay had attacked you when he got his blink stalkers, you would have died. He also had horrible micro, and should have fended off your attack. If the defender walls in with buildings like others in this thread have stated, you wouldn't have any chance at all.
Chargelot/archon is definitely a viable mid game PvP composition, but I think you need to transition into it from either blink or DT, and I really think you need 2 bases to do it well since you should be taking advantage of its mobility (1 base colossus > 1 base chargelot/archon). I didn't mention it in the OP but when people are going for a very agressive 4gate I usually throw down an extra cannon, if they really want to push up your ramp the extra cannon only need to get 2 kills to be worth it. While I understand Static Defense is not always the best idea, its about making the build work. You also mentioned walling in which yes it works great against this build but If i transition into an expo and they don't attack there behind. This build is like playing zerg if you engage head on into a spot your going to lose its going to happen you want to fight out in the open to get surrounds if your own a map like crossfire there is no way this build would have a chance past 1base. I would like if anyone who had replays of this build succeeding to send them to me and I might add them to the op. Since this is a discussion about trying to makes this build as viable as possible that's all Artosis was trying to do and that's what Im trying to do, make this build work against all these common PvP builds. Then way to not mention critical pieces of your strategy in your guide... (defending 4 gate and what to do if your opponent plays defensively) And even if you get 2 cannons, I'm still going to break you with a 4 gate. The problem with cannons is that they can't be instantly warped in like warpgate units can. You invest 150 minerals in a cannon but don't get any return on it until half a minute later, whereas with warpgate units you get the return on investment within 5 seconds. Feel free to test your cannon defense against my 4 gate anytime... coLrsvp.138 on both NA and EU. Note that I'm not discrediting chargelot/archon, I'm just criticizing your build because going straight to chargelot/archon is not a safe way to get there. If you want to make this build as viable as possible, again like I said before I suggest transitioning into it from a DT or blink stalker opening. I just want to emphasize on this : this build get demolished by a good 4 gate. In the replays you showed, you START your cannon at the time they should have their units IN your base... I'm only comenting on this because I played a guy yesterday who did this exact build I didn't know about. I was like : "wtf, chargelot/archon on one base with 1 cannon defense ? Doesn't that auto lose to 4 gate ?" and the guy laughed at me and said that it was solid. So I played another game and 4 gated him and just crushed him. I think you need to find some other way to beat 4 gate in the early stage of the games because 1 late cannon is not the way to go. (geiko.813) for anyone who doesn't believe me and wants to be 4 gated. Unfortunately, believe or not, I don't have the replay... For some reason, I discovered that your replays stop being saved once you reach (1000) on the same map. My last replay is Xel'Naga(999). This should be fixed by blizzard
I've held good 4 gates with this build but it isn´t easy, you just get the forge earlier and cannon placement pretty much determines if you live or die. But this build is just irrelevant if your opponent walls their ramp, then you are severely behind in tech and whatnot and you're just gonna die since you cannot possibly break it.
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On July 07 2011 13:09 unkkz wrote:
I've used this build for about two weeks and the counter has been figured out, have lost several games in the same fashion as of late. Just scout it, go colossus, and wall your ramp like your playing vs a zerg. Then the chargelots cannot get in since there are only room for one and its blocked by 6+ zealots and you cannot break it with 2+ colossus kicking your ass. So all the colossus player has to do is wall the ramp, hold the attack easilly, then sitt on his ass untill he has like 4 colossus, push out and 1a the chargelot player.
So back to 4 gates and colossus wars for me... blaaaaah this matchup is just atrocious.
then what about not attacking and doing an expo with contain. the power of zealot archon is on the open field. expand and go voidray i would think would be a decent response.
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Does anyone have advice for how to beat an opponent who uses buildings well? One option for opponent is to block the ramp into the main and leave a one zealot gap, another would be to block the entrance into the natural with 3 gates (and maybe a cannon or two behind) and then blast away with ranged attacks of their choice. I have won a lot of games with this build but building blocks seem like a hard counter and very easy to execute.
User was warned for this post
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Netherlands19135 Posts
Ok so you can't make a topic for your question so you necro an unrelated topic for it instead? Right.
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