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I've used this build for about two weeks and the counter has been figured out, have lost several games in the same fashion as of late. Just scout it, go colossus, and wall your ramp like your playing vs a zerg. Then the chargelots cannot get in since there are only room for one and its blocked by 6+ zealots and you cannot break it with 2+ colossus kicking your ass. So all the colossus player has to do is wall the ramp, hold the attack easilly, then sitt on his ass untill he has like 4 colossus, push out and 1a the chargelot player.
So back to 4 gates and colossus wars for me... blaaaaah this matchup is just atrocious.
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On June 17 2011 16:18 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 12:34 jcroisdale wrote:On June 17 2011 08:50 Anihc wrote:
I watched the reps. I'm not convinced at all that this build works.
First of all, I don't think cannon can hold off a 4 gate. The guy in the first rep was over half a minute late with his 4 gate, and then poorly placed his proxy pylon so he wasn't able to warp in those 4 additional zealots. You would have easily lost to a standard 4 gate, your cannon doesn't even finish until well past the 6 minute mark.
Second, straight tech to chargelot/archon doesn't work IMO. You can die to so many things before you get charge, such as blink stalkers, or even a regular attack that has a few sentries for forcefield. If the guy in the 2nd replay had attacked you when he got his blink stalkers, you would have died. He also had horrible micro, and should have fended off your attack. If the defender walls in with buildings like others in this thread have stated, you wouldn't have any chance at all.
Chargelot/archon is definitely a viable mid game PvP composition, but I think you need to transition into it from either blink or DT, and I really think you need 2 bases to do it well since you should be taking advantage of its mobility (1 base colossus > 1 base chargelot/archon). I didn't mention it in the OP but when people are going for a very agressive 4gate I usually throw down an extra cannon, if they really want to push up your ramp the extra cannon only need to get 2 kills to be worth it. While I understand Static Defense is not always the best idea, its about making the build work. You also mentioned walling in which yes it works great against this build but If i transition into an expo and they don't attack there behind. This build is like playing zerg if you engage head on into a spot your going to lose its going to happen you want to fight out in the open to get surrounds if your own a map like crossfire there is no way this build would have a chance past 1base. I would like if anyone who had replays of this build succeeding to send them to me and I might add them to the op. Since this is a discussion about trying to makes this build as viable as possible that's all Artosis was trying to do and that's what Im trying to do, make this build work against all these common PvP builds. Then way to not mention critical pieces of your strategy in your guide... (defending 4 gate and what to do if your opponent plays defensively) And even if you get 2 cannons, I'm still going to break you with a 4 gate. The problem with cannons is that they can't be instantly warped in like warpgate units can. You invest 150 minerals in a cannon but don't get any return on it until half a minute later, whereas with warpgate units you get the return on investment within 5 seconds. Feel free to test your cannon defense against my 4 gate anytime... coLrsvp.138 on both NA and EU. Note that I'm not discrediting chargelot/archon, I'm just criticizing your build because going straight to chargelot/archon is not a safe way to get there. If you want to make this build as viable as possible, again like I said before I suggest transitioning into it from a DT or blink stalker opening.
I just want to emphasize on this : this build get demolished by a good 4 gate. In the replays you showed, you START your cannon at the time they should have their units IN your base...
I'm only comenting on this because I played a guy yesterday who did this exact build I didn't know about. I was like : "wtf, chargelot/archon on one base with 1 cannon defense ? Doesn't that auto lose to 4 gate ?" and the guy laughed at me and said that it was solid. So I played another game and 4 gated him and just crushed him. I think you need to find some other way to beat 4 gate in the early stage of the games because 1 late cannon is not the way to go.
(geiko.813) for anyone who doesn't believe me and wants to be 4 gated.
Unfortunately, believe or not, I don't have the replay... For some reason, I discovered that your replays stop being saved once you reach (1000) on the same map. My last replay is Xel'Naga(999). This should be fixed by blizzard
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On July 07 2011 14:59 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 16:18 Anihc wrote:On June 17 2011 12:34 jcroisdale wrote:On June 17 2011 08:50 Anihc wrote:
I watched the reps. I'm not convinced at all that this build works.
First of all, I don't think cannon can hold off a 4 gate. The guy in the first rep was over half a minute late with his 4 gate, and then poorly placed his proxy pylon so he wasn't able to warp in those 4 additional zealots. You would have easily lost to a standard 4 gate, your cannon doesn't even finish until well past the 6 minute mark.
Second, straight tech to chargelot/archon doesn't work IMO. You can die to so many things before you get charge, such as blink stalkers, or even a regular attack that has a few sentries for forcefield. If the guy in the 2nd replay had attacked you when he got his blink stalkers, you would have died. He also had horrible micro, and should have fended off your attack. If the defender walls in with buildings like others in this thread have stated, you wouldn't have any chance at all.
Chargelot/archon is definitely a viable mid game PvP composition, but I think you need to transition into it from either blink or DT, and I really think you need 2 bases to do it well since you should be taking advantage of its mobility (1 base colossus > 1 base chargelot/archon). I didn't mention it in the OP but when people are going for a very agressive 4gate I usually throw down an extra cannon, if they really want to push up your ramp the extra cannon only need to get 2 kills to be worth it. While I understand Static Defense is not always the best idea, its about making the build work. You also mentioned walling in which yes it works great against this build but If i transition into an expo and they don't attack there behind. This build is like playing zerg if you engage head on into a spot your going to lose its going to happen you want to fight out in the open to get surrounds if your own a map like crossfire there is no way this build would have a chance past 1base. I would like if anyone who had replays of this build succeeding to send them to me and I might add them to the op. Since this is a discussion about trying to makes this build as viable as possible that's all Artosis was trying to do and that's what Im trying to do, make this build work against all these common PvP builds. Then way to not mention critical pieces of your strategy in your guide... (defending 4 gate and what to do if your opponent plays defensively) And even if you get 2 cannons, I'm still going to break you with a 4 gate. The problem with cannons is that they can't be instantly warped in like warpgate units can. You invest 150 minerals in a cannon but don't get any return on it until half a minute later, whereas with warpgate units you get the return on investment within 5 seconds. Feel free to test your cannon defense against my 4 gate anytime... coLrsvp.138 on both NA and EU. Note that I'm not discrediting chargelot/archon, I'm just criticizing your build because going straight to chargelot/archon is not a safe way to get there. If you want to make this build as viable as possible, again like I said before I suggest transitioning into it from a DT or blink stalker opening. I just want to emphasize on this : this build get demolished by a good 4 gate. In the replays you showed, you START your cannon at the time they should have their units IN your base... I'm only comenting on this because I played a guy yesterday who did this exact build I didn't know about. I was like : "wtf, chargelot/archon on one base with 1 cannon defense ? Doesn't that auto lose to 4 gate ?" and the guy laughed at me and said that it was solid. So I played another game and 4 gated him and just crushed him. I think you need to find some other way to beat 4 gate in the early stage of the games because 1 late cannon is not the way to go. (geiko.813) for anyone who doesn't believe me and wants to be 4 gated. Unfortunately, believe or not, I don't have the replay... For some reason, I discovered that your replays stop being saved once you reach (1000) on the same map. My last replay is Xel'Naga(999). This should be fixed by blizzard
I've held good 4 gates with this build but it isn´t easy, you just get the forge earlier and cannon placement pretty much determines if you live or die. But this build is just irrelevant if your opponent walls their ramp, then you are severely behind in tech and whatnot and you're just gonna die since you cannot possibly break it.
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On July 07 2011 13:09 unkkz wrote:
I've used this build for about two weeks and the counter has been figured out, have lost several games in the same fashion as of late. Just scout it, go colossus, and wall your ramp like your playing vs a zerg. Then the chargelots cannot get in since there are only room for one and its blocked by 6+ zealots and you cannot break it with 2+ colossus kicking your ass. So all the colossus player has to do is wall the ramp, hold the attack easilly, then sitt on his ass untill he has like 4 colossus, push out and 1a the chargelot player.
So back to 4 gates and colossus wars for me... blaaaaah this matchup is just atrocious.
then what about not attacking and doing an expo with contain. the power of zealot archon is on the open field. expand and go voidray i would think would be a decent response.
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Does anyone have advice for how to beat an opponent who uses buildings well? One option for opponent is to block the ramp into the main and leave a one zealot gap, another would be to block the entrance into the natural with 3 gates (and maybe a cannon or two behind) and then blast away with ranged attacks of their choice. I have won a lot of games with this build but building blocks seem like a hard counter and very easy to execute.
User was warned for this post
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Netherlands19138 Posts
Ok so you can't make a topic for your question so you necro an unrelated topic for it instead? Right.
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EPT
