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On May 28 2011 21:29 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 21:15 Unfeared wrote:On May 28 2011 21:11 Alsn wrote:On May 28 2011 21:06 Unfeared wrote:On May 28 2011 21:02 Alsn wrote:On May 28 2011 20:51 Unfeared wrote:On May 28 2011 20:45 Alsn wrote:
Looking at your build and watching some of your replays, I don't understand how you giving up map control completely and letting your opponent scout everything you are doing will allow you to win games against someone who realizes what you are doing.
1) You do not get ling speed.
2) You do not block your ramp but instead you mass spines in your mineral line.
These facts obviously mean that your opponent will easily be able to tell exactly what you are doing the entire match. Given that, when you win it just simply means your opponent failed.
At first glance I can see that in both of the "destiny fail" replays you aren't actually allowed to scout anything from minute 4-8. For all you know he could be getting banelings which looking at your base would kill you outright.
That being said I don't think your build premise(1base muta for gaining map control) is bad, per se, I just think it could stand a bit more early game robustness than "lets make spines in my mineral line and tech straight to mutas". Either double queen blocking your ramp, or some sim-city with buildings around your mineral line would go a long way. I was moving around with zerglings early and I did not see a baneling nest. At 6 minutes he pumps out 6 roaches and expands. That's why I didn't wall off. I'll get some replays vs sling bling busts in here. So how, exactly, would you stop someone with speedlings from scouting you? Your ling saw absolutely nothing on the shakuras game, by the way. It was completely denied by the queen and you know it. The only reason you had any idea of what he was doing is because he was using a build from a controversial forum post and following it to the letter(which, really, is just dumb considering the build in question relies on ambiguity). I'm not bashing the idea of the build, it obviously wins you games. Your opponents did the same fatal mistake as you did(giving up map control for an extended period of time) and got punished for it(by a blind counter). All I would like to say is that you can improve a lot by leaving your opponents in the dark(thus forcing them to consider you possibly doing a roach speed/+1 timing or something else off of 1 base). That's certainly something to consider. But investing in roaches to block off, will cut alot of eco. My point is that he scouts it and reacts with spores and queens, which will put you in a lead If he decides to baneling bust after scouting my lair I will notice by more speedlings streaming in on the map and I will add additional queens/spines. Granted the timings of my mutas vs 2 base bling allin are on a thin line but I've held off many bling busts by blocking it off completely + transfusing the queen. I do not doubt that you have held it, it just seems too easy of a build to read to me. What's stopping your opponent from doing the exact same build but with speed before lair(for scouting) and another hatch instead of the spines/evo? He would have mutas poping when you arrive to his base, but with a better econ? I'm not saying that's even a good response, I'm just saying if you can't stop them from scouting you at all you need to fix that somehow. If he does that he will be slower + behind since spores on my side will block that out. I really can't talk too much about that because I've never seen it before. But as it is now, I actually want the opponent to scout my spire and build an evo and spores + queens, stopping him from going for his planned build. wzp is still used in close positions and hard to stop. It was because of the sentry build time buff Protosses were able to stop it. No? It was because people realized the only thing they had to do was scout it. There were several different ways in the thread of stopping it well before the patch. I still don't see how you can defend the fact that you are completely in the dark except what your overlords can tell you and still think that you can't be busted(or out-econ'd). All it takes is for someone to sit down and go through your play until they find a weakness to exploit(and there will be one, there always is if you're blind and your opponent sees your every move). Something as simple as having 6 lings at your ramp to deny at least "high econ" scouting might be enough, but just staying completely passive after your first ling scout doesn't sound very good to me.
Ofcourse nothing is unbeatable. But what exploit would that be? Like I said, being scouted is a part of the build.
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Will have to give this a go, are you winning the majority of your games using it? In text it should work, but it's very different once online
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On May 28 2011 20:10 Unfeared wrote:
The only weakness of this build is sling bling allins.
Yeah, I mean, what are the chances that someone would do a sling/bling all in in a zvz match.
Talk about cutting yourself with occam's razor.
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None of these replays work for me, the links are all broken. Anyone else having this problem? I'm interested in seeing this in action.
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When i go for muta expo I prefer doing a double queen block w/ spine behind it. It can withstand a great deal of pressure if u manage yur queen energy right.
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I like grabbing mutas only after going with the Spanishiwa build in ZvZ. Which is incredibly rare for me now.
But I still can't buy into going mutas in ZvZ. Roaches can just kill so much stuff so quickly that it makes it quite difficult to truly "go" mutalisks.
It is funny though when you are maxed, barely win a battle and then make 18 mutalisks with your bank and he has nothing but roaches. Of course, it's not funny when it happens to you.
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On May 29 2011 04:27 darkscream wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 20:10 Unfeared wrote:
The only weakness of this build is sling bling allins.
Yeah, I mean, what are the chances that someone would do a sling/bling all in in a zvz match. Talk about cutting yourself with occam's razor.
It's not gonna be a weakness soon. A friend and me refining the build vs banelings and it's been working really well. Making the screens and replays now.
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I'm confused as to how 2-4 speedlings are supposed to hold off a speedling OR a sling/bling all in. This sounds a lot like an incredibly risky attempt to force muta play into the metagame.
Let me say it from my point of view. I see a few lings. I make more than he has. I check his base and see he has nothing but spine crawlers and he's morphing a lair. Maybe I see he doesn't have a warren, maybe I don't. Either way, I'm going to make 30 speedlings and beat this build.
This works perfectly on ladder and tournaments (bo1, risky to try this more than once on the same opponent.).
This relys too much on your opponent never scouting you and too little on safety.. Thats not a very solid.
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Muta plays are really good on maps like taldarim, and typhoon. Although I prefer sling expo when going muta, because that way you force your opponent to make defense and they cant just power drone. A lot of people will base race you though once mutas come out but a strong number of lings and spines holds it, you may have to pull drones tho...
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On May 29 2011 05:06 Probe1 wrote:I'm confused as to how 2-4 speedlings are supposed to hold off a speedling OR a sling/bling all in. This sounds a lot like an incredibly risky attempt to force muta play into the metagame. Let me say it from my point of view. I see a few lings. I make more than he has. I check his base and see he has nothing but spine crawlers and he's morphing a lair. Maybe I see he doesn't have a warren, maybe I don't. Either way, I'm going to make 30 speedlings and beat this build. Show nested quote +This works perfectly on ladder and tournaments (bo1, risky to try this more than once on the same opponent.). This relys too much on your opponent never scouting you and too little on safety.. Thats not a very solid.
30 blocked speedlings vs 2-3 spines doesn't work very well.
Anyway, replays going up as soon as gamereplays.com gets back online. Gotta adjust the build now too.
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I'd just like to say that I feel this build is now much stronger with the variation to deny scouting via the use of lings and a spine at the ramp. It still gives up map control in that you are completely in the dark as to what your opponent is doing until mutas get out, but on the other hand so is your opponent, so they can't play super greedy.
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WZP Died well before the most recent patch.
And I don't buy this.
Your spire will be scouted in time for them to get their overlords back to their base and have spores and multiple queens up. You say this is what you want to happen, I say Mutalisks in ZvZ are useless without being a surprise.
You have now spent 200/200 + 500/500 on a bunch of flying paper planes that do no damage. You claim you will be ahead in upgrades, but if your opponent is following a basic ZvZ build order, they will have +1 missile before or around the same time as you. They will also be going Infestors, which will completely shut down your Mutalisk play. If they just keep their infestors near spores and queens you won't be able to snipe anything.
All they have to do is add a Hydra Den, not overbuild Hydralisks, and you lose. You claim you will instantly catch up in econ as soon as you transfer your drones to your natural, I say you will be well behind in resources mined. If your opponent simply goes roaches and gets burrow (normal ZvZ) you now have to spend another 100 gas on an overseer just to take your natural expansion.
It is not only bad against 1 base Hydra or fast infestors, it is bad against Standard ZvZ at a competent level. You are relying on your opponent to be incompetent.
If you do the "deny scouting" build, any competent zerg will know you are either going:
a. Mutalisks or
b. Burrowed roach rush
Spores counter both of these similar to a protoss who you know is either going DTs or Void Rays, either way they are screwed if you put a spore in each mineral line and in front of each hatch while building up a meaningful army in case of a roach attack (similar to if you are unsure if the protoss is going for a delayed 4 gate or expo cancel 4 gate.)
Relying on incompetence is a sure way to hit a plateau.
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I don't really like this build because it has alot of problems, I'm not against mutas in ZvZ though, I think they can be pretty good(Nestea even use them). Against a half-decently played hatch first you will be too far behind in econ to win. You say that you get equal amount of drone and income when you transfer them to the expansion and this is just not true. Hatch first has so much more larva with 2hatches and 2 queens, and the income will be greater once your reach 16+drones on minerals, and you can drone so easily against your build because even just speedlings will see everthing from tech to what you do with your larva.
As for the spines if you leave them in the mineral line your opponent will know your every move for a cheap price of some lings, and if you leave them at the ramp you will run a big risk of ling runbys, or just a roach/ling bust. Most of the times you will also need to decide if you want a second queen before lair or not before you actually can scout if you need it. Should you go for a second queen you will be able to deny scouting better but your lair will be significantly slowed and you'll just keep oversaturation your base.
As said before there are also very few options from a fast lair tech and by not opening roach you pretty much eliminate the threat of some roach push with burrow+speed. In conclusion I think this build is a no-go against a hatch first opening and against a gas/pool I would say a roach -> mutas would be a better choice.
I watched the replayes and to me it seems like you played your build pretty good while your opponent just failed his macro, e.g. the destiny's push game I think your opponent would have been ahead if got those injects down and put guys back on gas.
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Your opponents were bad, really bad. I think it may be more viable if you double queen block
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there has been a couple of zvz that my opponent went muta fast expand while i went for infestors.
Yea Infestors vs mutas infestors will always come on top. 4 infestors can murder any amount of clumped up mutalisks. I wouldn't really go for mutas in any zvz
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I think moon vs slush just showed that you can't go muta. You just can't even if you put baneling mines at your ramp.
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I actually like getting 6 Mutas to provoke a Hydra response and immediately transition into upgraded Sling/Bling along with any surviving roaches to mop up the Hydras and the drones/crawlers on my next ground push
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How exactly do you think that this build holds a roach ling all in?
Mutas take years to kill roaches and lings.
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What if he runs the lings into your mineral line and hits hold position?
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early larvae count is the biggest problem I can see with this type of build. Even worse are the consequences of a good roach/infestor mid game, while you'd be focus'd on ling/muta.
One other possible weakness is that you have to out expo your opponent wants you start to add on mutas with this strategy, otherwise the roach/infestor army becomes dramatically superior since stacking mutas would have SEVERE consequences.
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EPT
