EPT[G] ZvZ Mutalisk expand - Page 3
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Dubpace
United States251 Posts
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Dubpace
United States251 Posts
On June 05 2011 18:09 Dubpace wrote: There is no way this is a good build against competent players. The only way this works is if your opponent is really stupid and doesn't know how to respond correctly. I promise I will have 4+ queens, full saturation and loss of no overlords by the time YOUR expansion goes up. There is no way this will work. You sacrifice too much map control and economy for an easily scoutable and counterable build. Edit: And how exactly are you planning on defending that natural expansion from not getting constantly denied? Mutas won't do it, and you shouldn't have creep out there to get your spines over there. Even if you do it's too easy to exploit spine position to kill the hatch anyways. There are a lot of holes in this build >.> Edit2: Also even if somehow they let you take your natural for free, and you have 45-50 drones off of one base, your army will be so weak compared to somebody that didn't open like this. Remember: 5 mutalisks=500 gas. 4 roaches=100 gas so you are in theory 20 roaches behind in production. | ||
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KaiserJohan
Sweden1808 Posts
On the other hand,I typically go 15 hatch 14 pool and roach warren ASAP. Build enough for defense against blings and such, drone up, get lair and then get some 10ish mutas just to suprise, harrass and contain his ass. Works wonders, although vulnerable if he decides to do a timing push before you can get a big amount of infestors out | ||
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telfire
United States415 Posts
So you've scouted an early baneling nest. This is what you've got to do to take a guaranteed win: ----- Lol. Helpful :/ Yeah I really don't understand how you expect to survive early game with this, completely forgetting that mutas are so hard countered in mid game by hydras or fungal | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
On June 05 2011 18:09 Dubpace wrote: There is no way this is a good build against competent players. The only way this works is if your opponent is really stupid and doesn't know how to respond correctly. I promise I will have 4+ queens, full saturation and loss of no overlords by the time YOUR expansion goes up. There is no way this will work. You sacrifice too much map control and economy for an easily scoutable and counterable build. Edit: And how exactly are you planning on defending that natural expansion from not getting constantly denied? Mutas won't do it, and you shouldn't have creep out there to get your spines over there. Even if you do it's too easy to exploit spine position to kill the hatch anyways. There are a lot of holes in this build >.> Edit2: Also even if somehow they let you take your natural for free, and you have 45-50 drones off of one base, your army will be so weak compared to somebody that didn't open like this. Remember: 5 mutalisks=500 gas. 4 roaches=100 gas so you are in theory 20 roaches behind in production. Are you saying all the people he beat in his replays are really stupid? (Hint: Even smart players make bad decisions. It happens.) As much as I enjoy pouncing on people proposing a new strategy, I gotta give Unfeared some credit for this build. I can't say I understand how or why (or whether) it works when done properly. I tried it a few times because it looked entirely stupid on paper, but for some reason I actually won most of the games I tried it in -- I lost once, but that was just bad mid/late-game play; I entered the mid-game with an advantage. So yeah, diamond/low master players will almost always react in the wrong way, and after actually trying it, I do believe that it can work in mid/high masters (and yes, nobody says you can't hard-counter this). What I found by far the most impressive about all the games was just how impenetrable a sim city with 1-2 spine crawlers and 1-2 queens is to mass ling. The chokes make it so easy to defend with a queen and maybe a few drones while the spine crawlers do the rest. Unfeared, could you please update the OP with more replays and your comments on dealing with banelings? Also, as a response to Dubspace: Congratulations, you found a very good response to this build. Many others have too. This does not mean the build is useless: What you suggested is, based on practical experience, not obvious to most zerg players. Yes, there are holes in this build, and nobody claimed the opposite. From the OP: "risky to try this more than once on the same opponent". As for this: Edit2: Also even if somehow they let you take your natural for free, and you have 45-50 drones off of one base, your army will be so weak compared to somebody that didn't open like this. Remember: 5 mutalisks=500 gas. 4 roaches=100 gas so you are in theory 20 roaches behind in production. Yes, your army *will* be very weak, and that's why you need the spotting overlords and the roaming mutas to keep him in check. I'm not saying it's enough, but the OP has explicitly talked about this. Also, your "in theory" calculation doesn't make much sense. I could turn the tables and say "Remember: 5 mutalisks = 500 minerals. 7 roaches = 525 minerals so you are in theory 7 roaches behind", or I could count larvae/supply instead and then it's 5 roaches. It's not that simple. Clearly 20 roaches will beat 2 spine crawlers defending with 4 mutas, but I don't see how this is a useful comparison (why 20?). | ||
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Azrepoman
United States13 Posts
3 roaches = 3 larva and 225/75 early on + 150 for roach warren. While spines are 0 larva and deal more dmg/cost. You're forgetting spine crawlers use up a drone which is 50 min & 1 larva. Plus you're getting a roach warren anyways. Wouldn't it make more since to use it for defense and eliminate the spines all together? Plus I deny ling scouting and can use those 3 roaches to fight with later in the game. On a side note, Day[9] analyzed a top tier Korean ZvZ game with 9 Pool into double queen block vs Muta expand opening. Very interesting. http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-250-top-korean-zvz-4721433 | ||
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Dellward
Australia138 Posts
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danieltang34
4 Posts
On May 28 2011 20:42 Unfeared wrote: You're showing that you have at least a roach warren up. It could be a roach sling allin. Also 3 roaches = 3 larva and 225/75 early on + 150 for roach warren. While spines are 0 larva and deal more dmg/cost. It will have a significant impact on your eco and I don't think you'll be able to hit the right timings. I like this build but the math is off Buildings cost one drone Which is 50min and one larva So it's 3roach: 225/50 + 150 + 50 = 425/50 + 4larvae Each Spine: 100 + 50 + 1 larva Spines indirectly (or directly w/e) cost larvae | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
I don't scout at the right moment. He expands without showing his mutas and makes a ball of 20 and wins because I did not even remotely deserve to win. I do scout and see him doing that. I instantly transition into roach ling all in while dropping a hydra den. I send a single round of reinforcement lings and pump pure hydralisks. I win because 5 mutas get trounced by 24 roaches and so many zerglings with burrow. I've just never seen this put anyone ahead. It might cost me overlords and give up map control but only for the time a hydra den takes. Then we're best case scenario pretty even and I can defend a third or flat out walk in and kill you. I dunno :\ I'd love to be convinced of this, I don't like the mass roach then make infestors way either but I want to win more. | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
On June 07 2011 12:06 Dellward wrote: This is a build that has already been covered (albeit with a better build order) by Day9 in one of his ZvZ dailies from awhile ago. In this version, you're basically advocating two spines, LETTING YOUR OPPONENT SEE YOUR FUCKING BUILD and not even blocking your ramp with roaches or queens. That is simply assured failure. This will simply lose to any kind of two-base speedling/baneling all-in. Why do people get so angry if they don't even read the OP? Did you read the OP? Letting your opponent see the build is intentional. Also, it is absolutely not true that you will lose to "any kind of two-base speedling/baneling all-in", I've held off many of those. When I did lose it was to roaches, not speedling/baneling. (I'm not saying you'll hold off every speedling/baneling attack, but it's not true that you'll "lose to any kind" of them.) Edit: Also, which daily was that? I'd be interested in the link, sounds fun. I've been doing some of the 9pool double queen block, expand into fast +1 speed roaches on certain maps, and that's great fun. I noticed that if you're at least even army-wise, a tech switch to mutas right after the first roach baiting (you have roach speed before your opponent) is hugely effective, since that's a timing where the opponent is blind, it's not safe for him to push out (your roaches are faster), and few people expect a muta switch after speed roaches. But even then you only get 5-6 mutas to snipe queens etc., then you need to mass ground units again to hold the counter-push. But that's another thread entirely =) On June 07 2011 16:51 Probe1 wrote: I still don't agree that this is a winner. I've faced it a few times since posting my thoughts and there are two ways it plays out. I don't scout at the right moment. He expands without showing his mutas and makes a ball of 20 and wins because I did not even remotely deserve to win. I do scout and see him doing that. I instantly transition into roach ling all in while dropping a hydra den. I send a single round of reinforcement lings and pump pure hydralisks. I win because 5 mutas get trounced by 24 roaches and so many zerglings with burrow. I've just never seen this put anyone ahead. It might cost me overlords and give up map control but only for the time a hydra den takes. Then we're best case scenario pretty even and I can defend a third or flat out walk in and kill you. I dunno :\ I'd love to be convinced of this, I don't like the mass roach then make infestors way either but I want to win more. Going for a huge ball of muta is something completely different from this build. I don't see how this opening allows you to get 20 mutas before the opponent is close to 200/200, since you're only on 2 gas for ages. You say "you've never seen this put anyone ahead" -- have you actually watched OP's replays and/or tried it yourself? It sounds like you've never actually seen this build in general :-) I tried it myself and was very surprised by how it worked out. I don't think it's anything as solid as roach/infestor, but it sure made for very amusing games, and surprisingly enough, I had a good win rate. (I do not expect this to work if it's commonly used, and I only used it on maps which seem suitable, i.e., stuff like typhon peaks -- as the OP mentioned). Like the OP said, this is *not* the kind of build you'd want to use repeatedly against the same opponent, and it can be held off quite well, nobody disputes that. It's surprisingly strong against early speedling/baneling all-ins, and it can certainly throw off your opponent, but a strong (not too early) roach attack can surely beat it; as can a more passive FE into 4 queens and 2-3 spores into a huge roach/hydra ball, etc. I don't get why people keep making comments that aren't relevant to this thread. This is not about speedling expand into mutas, there's plenty of threads about that -- and the OP never claimed that this was a strong "standard" opener. | ||
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